Glucosamine found to be ineffective at soothing joints FEDERAL study finds...
- 02-23-2006, 12:22 PM
Glucosamine found to be ineffective at soothing joints FEDERAL study finds...
I know how you guys are and you will flame the hell out of me for posting this because for some reason most people can't accept the fact that something they are using doesn't work but I have never gotten any real results out of it either. This is a federal study though and it is interesting nonetheless. Placebo effect could be more of the reason for this.PharmD
- 02-23-2006, 12:31 PM
I didn't follow this link, but I did read about this study elsewhere, and if I recall, the numbers were like ~65% got relief from the supps or the placebo, but interestingly enough ~70% got relief from Celedrin in the same study, so if the effects of placebo were about the same as the supp, the prescription drug was barely more effective than either. The article I read didn't make much mention of that. The point was raised though that G/C seems to help people with really severe arthritis pain, IIRC, just not people with 'average' symptoms. Something like that anyway.
Oh, and for full disclosure: neither G/C, MSM, or Cetyl Myristoleate have helped with any of my joint pain. Cissus has, though, so I suspect a lot of my 'joint pain' has nothing to do with bone degeneration and everything to do with strained tendons. FYI.
02-23-2006, 12:31 PM
Don't let one article sway your whole view on something.
Same with this article. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...te-health.html
You have to remember, who's doing the study and are there alterior motives. If sales are out pacing the sale of Proscar would Merk silently fund a study showing that SP doesn't work then publish results?
The FDA is funded by Big Pharma...
all just food for thought.
02-23-2006, 12:41 PM
I'm not sure if anyone will flame you, however in this post lies, IMO, the largest misconception/misuse of glucosamine/choldoitron sulfate. These two supplements provide the essential building blocks for connective tissue and bone repair, but have not been shown to exhibit analgesic properties. Many users take Glucosamine/choldoitron in hopes of easing the pain but do not realize the inflammation must first be ceased before these supplements can deliver theneeded for repair. And although they have been shown to reduce inflammation as the below study shows, I think a more effect use of them is to take a more potent anti-inflammatory to first quell the inflammation and allow Glucosamine/Choldoitron to do their work.
02-23-2006, 12:44 PM
Screw the governeement and what they say. Ya and I can remember that creatine was gonna kill everyone off to. Well they still can't prove that.
02-23-2006, 01:27 PM
I'm not too sure about "Big Pharma" bias in this study. One of the sponsors was NCCAM and they seem to be some what of a cheerleader to alternative medicines. Don't know much about the politics/social dynamics around this issue, I think Null would probably know more. Hopefully he finds and responds to this thread and gives some additional context.
02-23-2006, 02:55 PM
With a placebo rate of 64%, it is clear that the study was not designed well enough to warrant going public over. Positive effects for placebos should be less than halh that rate. This one study, by any stretch of the imagination, should not be taken as gospel. Responsible science, done by responsible scientists only issues statements after a series of repeated studies...it should not run to the media with one study that contradicts other studies done on a compound.
Most of us know that G/C is not terrific but it does work to a small degree. It is interesting to note that people with severe pain in the study got the most relief. Perhaps the moral of the story is that you need to actually have a real bonfide joint problem for it to work well. No offense to anyone here, but young atheletes with aches and pains can't hold a candle to the level of discomfort felt by elderly people who've been ravaged by arthritis for 40 years..so maybe that's the crux for G/C use.
02-23-2006, 03:34 PM
100% exactly, our bodies (young athletes) are regenerate enough that substances like Glucosamine do not assist us greatly because we do not lack the essential building blocks of bones/connective tissue that it brings. We simply pound our bodies into submission without letting the aches and minor injuries heal, then take supplements such as this and complain they do not work when we have not given them the chance to. I think a far more effective method is one I mentioned above, to kill the inflammation by taking some ibuprofen (I know, suck it up), or Cissus and then supplement. As Bioman said Glucosamine is a far better product for those with serious arthritic conditions because they DO lack the essential nutrients for bone regrowth, and replacing them with a supplement like Glucosamine helps to to provide their aching joints with the nutrients needed while killing the inflammation. I think the best cure for the ailing joints of younger athletes like myself is rest, you cannot heal what you constantly irritate. Just my opinionOriginally Posted by bioman
02-23-2006, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by bioman
Actually i wasn't looking at "who" got relieft but how long it took for them to get relief. Most of them were getting relief months later. Kinda hard to say glucosamine itself even did anything. They could have just healed better by then or it could have been placebo effect.
As I said, I for one never feel the effects of glucosamine, my joints are achey either way.
I mean I feel glucosamine helps in some respects but probably not in the high dosages we are taking. Kinda like taking 4000iu's of vitamine e isnt going to be any more effective than 400
02-23-2006, 06:45 PM
02-23-2006, 07:24 PM
Maybe we should keep this on the downlow, so as not to alert the FDA. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to make cissus a controlled substance, you know, for the sake of the children and all.Originally Posted by jminis
02-23-2006, 07:33 PM
02-23-2006, 08:03 PM
02-24-2006, 02:22 AM
02-24-2006, 02:26 AM
I'll be capping up a 50/50 celadrin-Cissus combo this week. It rocks.
I was thinking what glucosamine and chondriotin need is an ethyl ester attached...can I get a hell yea from our vendors?
A G/C combo that's esterfied along with Celadrin would be pretty dang nice. Someone has to be working on this.
02-24-2006, 03:02 AM
Clinical trials involving painful conditions (arthritis/heartburn/irritible bowel/chronic pain) of nearly any origin have always suffered from high placebo response rates. I see no glaring flaws in the study design. The difference is either statistically significant or not statistically significant. Remember p values from statistics class. Many of the participants in these studies improve from just having a relationship with caregivers and the fact that their pain has been validated. Even "Big Pharma" wrestles with that problem in their drug trials.Originally Posted by bioman
BTW, osteoarthritis is a degeneration of cartilage at the bone ends that is believed to be caused by a number of factors. So.....it will be nearly impossible to design an OA study that statistically significantly proves that there is a "magic bullet" vs. arthritis.
I don't necessarily blame "Big Pharma" in this one. My guess is that the supplement industry, which heavily markets G/C, has benefitted greatly from the Vioxx/Celebrex/Bextra safety issues. What else were these sufferers to turn if not a supplement that seems to really make sense on paper? I agree with a previous comment that it's also difficult to improve an arthritic joint's health (with any type of supplement) until it is "cooled off" somehow. Also, intelligent people don't normally allow a single study's results to completely change their beliefs. So also to agree with a different post, it shouldn't be taken as gospel until the results prove to be repeatable.
02-24-2006, 08:10 AM
Well if it doesnt work, Ill tell my mother that and she will laugh.
She feels a huge difference in everyday life when she is waiting for me to buy her more bottles if she misses even a day or two. Its amazing - osteo double strength works great for her and the only brand that has proven to be effective according to the dozen or so brands she tried before this working.
02-24-2006, 09:45 AM
See this is exactly what concerns me. Doesn't it seem odd that she tried that many and only one works? I am not saying this stuf fdoesn't work, I just enjoy posting news that has bearing on health etc. in these forums. So dont take it as that but it does worry me on the quality and purity of some supps. Cause I have been in that position too where a certain brand of something worked and another didnt.Originally Posted by shct
02-24-2006, 11:47 AM
Hey guys, you have to actually see the abstract/full text in order to bash the study.
If anything, this study shows that glucosamine + chondroitin may have some effectivity for the treatment of joint pain.
The only flaw I see is that they expected both glucosamine and chondroitin, alone or together, to have some sort of analgesic effect. That is not how these work. They work by providing the building blocks for the tissues themselves.
So if they saw a noticeable decline in pain, (only a little more pain then the analgesic controlled group), then I'd say the combo was doing something.
If anybody wants the full text just email me.
Glucosamine, Chondroitin Sulfate, and the Two in Combination for Painful Knee Osteoarthritis
Daniel O. Clegg, M.D., Domenic J. Reda, Ph.D., Crystal L. Harris, Pharm.D., Marguerite A. Klein, M.S., James R. O'Dell, M.D., Michele M. Hooper, M.D., John D. Bradley, M.D., Clifton O. Bingham, III, M.D., Michael H. Weisman, M.D., Christopher G. Jackson, M.D., Nancy E. Lane, M.D., John J. Cush, M.D., Larry W. Moreland, M.D., H. Ralph Schumacher, Jr., M.D., Chester V. Oddis, M.D., Frederick Wolfe, M.D., Jerry A. Molitor, M.D., David E. Yocum, M.D., Thomas J. Schnitzer, M.D., Daniel E. Furst, M.D., Allen D. Sawitzke, M.D., Helen Shi, M.S., Kenneth D. Brandt, M.D., Roland W. Moskowitz, M.D., and H. James Williams, M.D.
Background Glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate are used to treat osteoarthritis. The multicenter, double-blind, placebo- and celecoxib-controlled Glucosamine/chondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial (GAIT) evaluated their efficacy and safety as a treatment for knee pain from osteoarthritis.
Methods We randomly assigned 1583 patients with symptomatic knee osteoarthritis to receive 1500 mg of glucosamine daily, 1200 mg of chondroitin sulfate daily, both glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, 200 mg of celecoxib daily, or placebo for 24 weeks. Up to 4000 mg of acetaminophen daily was allowed as rescue analgesia. Assignment was stratified according to the severity of knee pain (mild [N=1229] vs. moderate to severe [N=354]). The primary outcome measure was a 20 percent decrease in knee pain from baseline to week 24.
Results The mean age of the patients was 59 years, and 64 percent were women. Overall, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate were not significantly better than placebo in reducing knee pain by 20 percent. As compared with the rate of response to placebo (60.1 percent), the rate of response to glucosamine was 3.9 percentage points higher (P=0.30), the rate of response to chondroitin sulfate was 5.3 percentage points higher (P=0.17), and the rate of response to combined treatment was 6.5 percentage points higher (P=0.09). The rate of response in the celecoxib control group was 10.0 percentage points higher than that in the placebo control group (P=0.008). For patients with moderate-to-severe pain at baseline, the rate of response was significantly higher with combined therapy than with placebo (79.2 percent vs. 54.3 percent, P=0.002). Adverse events were mild, infrequent, and evenly distributed among the groups.
Conclusions Glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate alone or in combination did not reduce pain effectively in the overall group of patients with osteoarthritis of the knee. Exploratory analyses suggest that the combination of glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate may be effective in the subgroup of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain. (ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT00032890 [ClinicalTrials.gov] .)
02-24-2006, 12:21 PM
Anyone have any studies that Glucosamine does work? How about Milk Thistle for liver health, or even Cissus?
02-24-2006, 01:01 PM
I will only contribute this: My mother has rheumatoid arthritis, and the only thing--presciption or otherwise--that reduced the inflamation and pain was Glucosamine, which her specialist doctor recommended. She felt relief inside of two days, and that relief accelerated until now, she barely has any symptoms at all.
02-24-2006, 01:21 PM
I have already said it in this thread, and I will say it again, Glucosamine/Choldoitron should not be used if the desired effect is an analgesic one...More than likely, it will not ease the pain or have any healing properties while your injury is still inflamed and/or irritated
02-24-2006, 02:41 PM
parts of this article seem to say that it did work
The study found that in a subgroup, consisting of patients with moderate-to-severe knee pain, 79 percent of those who took the supplements together improved compared with 54 percent of those who took a placebo."Our take on this study is that it did find that the combination relieved pain in people who have moderate-to-severe pain," said Dr. Klippel of the Arthritis Foundation.
M. Elizabeth Halloran, a biostatistics professor at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and the University of Washington in Seattle, who had no association with the study, also thought there was an effect.anecdotally, when i have taken glucosamine and chondroitin in the past, it helped with my joint problems that were due to injuries (right knee and back) but not my other joints that just ache."Patients who had more pain did seem to be helped by the combination," said Dr. Daniel O. Clegg, a researcher at the University of Utah School of Medicine who was the lead author of the study.
02-24-2006, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Parteeman
Well that's interesting, because it's supposed to take about a month for it have a noticeable effect.
Medicine is never black and white, or no pain/in pain. I think what your mother experienced was a placebo effect or one of the other drugs she was on started working better, (RA is never treated with only supplements, but usually Disease Modifying Anti-Rheumatic Drugs + analgesics + something to control the inflamation like prednisone).
Glad your mother is doing well though.
02-25-2006, 09:07 AM
This is a little dated, but...Originally Posted by KD1
"The best evidence of that possible benefit comes from a Belgian clinical trial published in 2001 in The Lancet, a respected British medical journal. It found that glucosamine may reduce the incidence of serious progression by about 50 percent."
Glucosamine + MSM seems to have helped my joints. It took maybe a month or so to notice any difference, but my knees and shoulders were not popping and making noises as much as they did when I wasn't taking these supplements. The biggest thing I noticed, is that when I stopped taking the Glucosamine + MSM, the "popping" came back, and it took a month or two of supplementing with Glucosamine + MSM for the popping and clicking to subside. So yes, it seems to have helped me, but it was sure slow in acting. Don't expect instant results with this stuff.
02-27-2006, 11:48 AM
Mulletsoldier pretty much nailed it.
Glucosamine and Chondroitin are not for pain relief. They are for repair. The goal is to slow, prevent, or in some cases reverse damage done to joint tissue. This does not necessarily mean you will no longer feel pain since the vast majority of joint pain is from inflamation, not from the actual damage itself.
A perfect example of this is the fact that IGF1, and GH both heal joint tissue like no tomorrow, yet both cause arthritic-like pain. They heal, yet they actually hurt.
That's where the problem is and what most fail to understand. Glucosamine and Chondroitin are great for actually repairing damage, they don't do much of anything at all for pain.
02-27-2006, 12:58 PM
Studies provide conflicting info all the darn time! Users of OTC products experience different results all the time - just like users of prescription drugs (surprise, surprise)!Heck, look at the feedback on any supplement mentioned on this board, and you'll see a gazillion examples.Originally Posted by KD1
It seeems like a lotta folks get a kick out of studies that "prove" others are wrong when it comes to what those others say works for them, but far as I'm concerned, I'll always believe my own lyin' eyes, ears, and experiences before I allow some fool who doesn't know me to try and tell me "it's your imagination," or "it's the placebo effect." To any and all of those folks, "talk to the hand."
Glucosamine/chondrotin products have provided me relief from joint pain since the early 00's, and that's that. I know a few other folks who have had the same positive experience. While it may not work for you, or to the satisfaction of the folks that designed the partcular study referenced above, it works for The Cardinal and anyone who thinks otherwise can go to heck!
Furthermore, when one of our aging dogs began to show signs of joint stiffness a few years ago (she was a black lab, so we were already watching her for signs of hip dysplasia), we started giving her 500 mgs. of glucosamine daily. Within one week (and contrary to the literature that claims you won't experience pain reduction for a t least a few weeks!), she was jumping around like a puppy again, and for the next 3 years of her life, she never showed any signs of joint discomfort up to her death. We also had a malamute that we gave glucosamine to preventatively, and we believe it allowed him to remain arthritis free up to his death.
Bottom line - most of us on this board have been around long enough to know that there are few definitive studies when it comes to OTC products because of the many variables. While it's nice to have scientific data that supports the efficacy of a specific supplement/product, it's seldom necessary as long as the product does not appear to be toxic/dangerous to the perspective taargeted users. If this weren't true, then most, if not all of our board sponsors would be in another line of work!
02-28-2006, 12:54 PM
Post the full article. Look who funded that study.
In a journal editorial, Dr. Marc Hochberg of the University of Maryland noted the study's limitations: a high dropout rate (20 percent) and a whopping 60 percent who said the dummy pills made them feel better _ double the usual placebo effect. Hochberg has received consulting fees from Pfizer Inc., which makes Celebrex, and Merck & Co., which made Vioxx.
Clegg and 10 other researchers in the study reported receiving fees or grant support from Pfizer or McNeil Consumer & Specialty Pharmaceuticals, which makes Tylenol.
The Council for Responsible Nutrition, which represents dietary supplement makers, said it was pleased about the positive findings in the severe arthritis group.
Of course they are going to say glucosamine doesn't work... why? Because that takes away from the prescription drug money.
So time to flame away!!
02-28-2006, 12:58 PM
Didn't I say this in the 3rd post....Originally Posted by BOHICA
EDIT: and thanks for posting that up BO...
02-28-2006, 01:00 PM
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