Post workout high sugar drinks limits glucose muscle reuptake

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    Post workout high sugar drinks limits glucose muscle reuptake


    Ok im cell and molecular biology student, so i read a lot about membrane proteins and cell receptor stuff. but what interest me most is the stuff related to bodybuilding.
    anyway, remember when you was a newbi, and every one told you to take some simple sugar (dextrose/ maltodexrine) after workout to republish muscle glycolegen store, and speed up recovery?

    will i found couple of studies that provide evidence that high protein drinks dose the opposite of what believed. High carb drinks may de-sensitize insulin reuptake in the muscle post work out!!! Which means high sugar post-workout drinks can slow down recovery.


    Effect of postexercise carbohydrate supplementation on glucose uptake-associated gene expression in the human skeletal muscle.

    Cheng IS, Lee NY, Liu KL, Liao SF, Huang CH, Kuo CH.

    Department of Nutrition and Food Sciences, Fu-Jen Catholic University, Taipei, Taiwan 242, ROC.

    We previously found that the exercise-induced elevation in GLUT4 mRNA of rat muscle can be rapidly down-regulated when glucose is given immediately following exercise. GLUT4, which plays an important role in insulin-mediated glucose uptake in the skeletal muscle. The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of postexercise carbohydrate diet on GLUT4 and hexokinase (HK) II mRNA levels in the human skeletal muscle. Eight untrained male subjects (age, 20.7+/-3.1 years) exercised for 60 min on a cycle ergometer at a 70-75% maximal oxygen consumption. The postexercise dietary treatment was performed in a crossover design. Immediately after the exercise, a diet with 70% carbohydrate content (1 g per kilogram of body weight; 356+/-19.8 kcal) was given to half of the subjects (eaten in 10 min) followed by a 3-h recovery, while the control subjects remained unfed for 3 h. Biopsies were performed on the deep portion of the vastus lateralis muscle of all subjects immediately after the exercise and 3 h after the carbohydrate ingestion. Blood glucose and serum insulin concentrations were measured every 30 min for 3 h. At the end of the 3-h recovery, blood glucose and serum insulin levels were not different from control levels, indicating that the oral carbohydrate was mostly disposed in the body within 3 h. In addition, GLUT4 and HK II mRNA levels were significantly lowered in the exercised human skeletal muscle in subjects receiving the carbohydrate diet. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that GLUT4 mRNA and HK II mRNA in the exercised human skeletal muscle were significantly lowered by a high-carbohydrate diet.

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    Somewhere, Bobo smiles, "I told 'em...I told 'em."
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    This has been covered many many times. But glad you saw a study to get you thinking. Do a search with "Post workout" and Bobo as poster for more studies.
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    Here.. did it for you.. have fun.

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/searc...earchid=439999
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    That is what happens when you check on humans instead of rats....note that the studies on rats indicate this may be a good thing to do. I think the study misses something however -- WHY is GLUT-4 dropped? It's possible that GLUT-4 dropped because it's purpose has been fulfilled -- FOOD GOT INTO THE MUSCLE.

    Frankly, to come up with any real conclusion here requires leaps of logic without actual hard data.

    Some similar studies for thought.

    Effect of carbohydrate supplementation on postexercise GLUT-4 protein expression in skeletal muscle.

    Kuo CH, Hunt DG, Ding Z, Ivy JL.

    Exercise Physiology and Metabolism Laboratory, Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas 78712, USA.

    The effect of carbohydrate supplementation on skeletal muscle glucose transporter GLUT-4 protein expression was studied in fast-twitch red and white gastrocnemius muscle of Sprague-Dawley rats before and after glycogen depletion by swimming. Exercise significantly reduced fast-twitch red muscle glycogen by 50%. During a 16-h exercise recovery period, muscle glycogen returned to control levels (25.0 +/- 1.4 micromol/g) in exercise-fasted rats (24.2 +/- 0. 3 micro). However, when carbohydrate supplementation was provided during and immediately postexercise by intubation, muscle glycogen increased 77% above control (44.4 +/- 2.1 micromol/g). Exercise-fasting resulted in an 80% increase in fast-twitch red muscle GLUT-4 mRNA but only a 43% increase in GLUT-4 protein concentration. Conversely, exercise plus carbohydrate supplementation elevated fast-twitch red muscle GLUT-4 protein concentration by 88% above control, whereas GLUT-4 mRNA was increased by only 40%. Neither a 16-h fast nor carbohydrate supplementation had an effect on fast-twitch red muscle GLUT-4 protein concentration or on GLUT-4 mRNA in sedentary rats, although carbohydrate supplementation increased muscle glycogen concentration by 40% (35.0 +/- 0.9 micromol/g). GLUT-4 protein in fast-twitch white muscle followed a pattern similar to fast-twitch red muscle. These results indicate that carbohydrate supplementation, provided with exercise, will enhance GLUT-4 protein expression by increasing translational efficiency. Conversely, postexercise fasting appears to upregulate GLUT-4 mRNA, possibly to amplify GLUT-4 protein expression on an increase in glucose availability. These regulatory mechanisms may help control muscle glucose uptake in accordance with glucose availability and protect against postexercise hypoglycemia.

    PMID: 10601180 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Note that things can also be somewhat different if you include Fenugreek or other shuttlers.

    The addition of fenugreek extract (Trigonella foenum-graecum) to glucose feeding increases muscle glycogen resynthesis after exercise.

    Ruby BC, Gaskill SE, Slivka D, Harger SG.

    Department of Health and Human Performance, The University of Montana, Missoula, Montana, U.S.A..

    The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of ingesting an oral supplement containing 4-Hydroxyisoleucine (4-OH-Ile, isolated from fenugreek seeds [Trigonella foenum-graecum]) with a glucose beverage on rates of post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis in trained male cyclists. Following an overnight fast (12 hr), subjects completed a 90-minute glycogen depletion ride after which a muscle biopsy was obtained from the vastus lateralis. Immediately and 2 hours after the muscle biopsy, subjects ingested either an oral dose of dextrose (Glu) (1.8 g.kg BW(-1)) or 4-OH-Ile supplement (Glu+4-OH-Ile, including 2.0 mg.kg(-1) 4-OH-Ile with the same oral dose of dextrose) with a second muscle biopsy 4 hours after exercise. Post exercise muscle glycogen concentration was similar for both trials. Overall, there was a significant increase in glucose and insulin concentrations from time 0 throughout the majority of the 4-hour recovery period, with no significant differences between the two trials at any time point. Although muscle glycogen concentration significantly increased from immediately post exercise to 4 hr of recovery for both trials, the net rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis was 63% greater during Glu+4-OH-Ile (10.6+/-3.3 vs. 6.5+/-2.6 g.kg wet wt.(-1).hr.(-1) for the Glu+4-OH-Ile and Glu trials, respectively). These data demonstrate that when the fenugreek extract supplement (4-OH-Ile) is added to a high oral dose of dextrose, rates of post-exercise glycogen resynthesis are enhanced above dextrose alone.

    PMID: 15719265 [PubMed - in process]
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    What?!


    Does this mean you're supposed to drink a protein-only shake for postworkout?
    So, carbs+protein preworkout and protein-only postworkout?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilDon
    Does this mean you're supposed to drink a protein-only shake for postworkout?
    So, carbs+protein preworkout and protein-only postworkout?
    No lildon what he's trying to say is take in complex carbs post workout like a whole grain bagel or oats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malek256
    That is what happens when you check on humans instead of rats....note that the studies on rats indicate this may be a good thing to do. I think the study misses something however -- WHY is GLUT-4 dropped? It's possible that GLUT-4 dropped because it's purpose has been fulfilled -- FOOD GOT INTO THE MUSCLE.

    Frankly, to come up with any real conclusion here requires leaps of logic without actual hard data.

    Some similar studies for thought.


    Note that things can also be somewhat different if you include Fenugreek or other shuttlers.
    I definitely agree with Malek here. It makes sense that the ingestion of any carbohydrate following training would exhibit a similar response.

    The exercise stimulates GLUT4 translocation and the insulin binds and does its job. So the receptors are decreased. Seems like the exact mechanism that is supposed to happen.

    What would be interesting is to see which type of carb (complex or simple) controlling for g amounts displayed the greatest drop in mRNA, GLUT4 expression 3h post-exerc.

    As to what x-muscle was saying about it slowing recovery, it may indeed be the opposite. Fewer receptors after carb mean that x amount were utilized, and what remains is still usable for recovery. Gross oversimplification but the idea as a whole makes sense to me at least. Someone please enlighten me.

    Pudge.
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    These individuals were also untrained. This doesn't apply to us real well, but much better than a mouse.

    Pudge.
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    1) Maltodextrin is not a sugar

    2) You used only the parts of the study that backed your argument.

    "At the end of the 3-h recovery, blood glucose and serum insulin levels were not different from control levels, indicating that the oral carbohydrate was mostly disposed in the body within 3 h." means that enough those these subjects ate ~75g C PWO at the end of 3 hours their levels were the same as the control group. Therefore, glucose disposal was increased.

    "GLUT4 and HK II mRNA levels were significantly lowered in the exercised human skeletal muscle in subjects receiving the carbohydrate diet. In conclusion, the present study demonstrates that GLUT4 mRNA and HK II mRNA in the exercised human skeletal muscle were significantly lowered by a high-carbohydrate diet." Did you choose to ignore this part? It's a big duh, we all know carbs reduce insulin sensitivity. That doesn't mean we shouldn't eat carbs PWO.

    3) This study does not prove a single thing you stated. If anything it shows that glucose uptake was enhanced.
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    Use of the glycemic index: effects on feeding patterns and exercise performance.

    Siu PM, Wong SH.

    Division of Exercise Physiology, West Virginia University, School of Medicine, USA.

    The focus of this paper is on the glycemic index (GI) that provides effectual information on planning nutritional strategies for carbohydrate (CHO) supplementation in exercise. Related research has suggested that the GI can be used as a reference guide for the selection of an ideal CHO supplement in sports nutrition. Recently, the manipulation of GI of CHO supplementation in optimizing athletic performance has provided an exciting new research area in sports nutrition. There is a growing evidence to support the use of the GI in planning the nutritional strategies for CHO supplementation in sports. The optimum CHO availability for exercise has been demonstrated by manipulating the GI of CHO. Research has shown that a low GI CHO-rich meal is a suitable CHO source before prolonged exercise in order to promote the availability of the sustained CHO. In contrast, a high GI CHO-rich meal appears to be beneficial for glycogen storage after the exercise by promoting greater glucose and insulin responses. The prescribed feeding patterns of CHO intake during recovery and prior to exercise on glycogen re-synthesis and exercise metabolism have been studied in the literature. However, the studies on the subject are still limited, leaving some open questions waiting for further empirical evidences. The most significant question is whether CHO supplementation before and after exercise is beneficial when consumed as large feedings or as a series of snacks. Further research is needed on the effect of feeding patterns on exercise performance.

    PMID: 14757995 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    In support of high GI:

    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (> or =1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

    PMID: 12617691 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.

    Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL.

    Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of North Texas, Health Science Center at Fort Worth, Texas 76107, USA. johnivy@mail.utexas.edu

    The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement.

    PMID: 12580650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Rapid carbohydrate loading after a short bout of near maximal-intensity exercise.

    Fairchild TJ, Fletcher S, Steele P, Goodman C, Dawson B, Fournier PA.

    Department of Human Movement and Exercise Science, The University of Western Australia, Crawley, Australia.

    PURPOSE: One limitation shared by all published carbohydrate-loading regimens is that 2-6 d are required for the attainment of supranormal muscle glycogen levels. Because high rates of glycogen resynthesis are reported during recovery from exercise of near-maximal intensity and that these rates could in theory allow muscle to attain supranormal glycogen levels in less than 24 h, the purpose of this study was to examine whether a combination of a short bout of high-intensity exercise with 1 d of a high-carbohydrate intake offers the basis for an improved carbohydrate-loading regimen. METHODS: Seven endurance-trained athletes cycled for 150 s at 130% VO2peak followed by 30 s of all-out cycling. During the following 24 h, each subject was asked to ingest 12 g.kg-1 of lean body mass (the equivalent of 10.3 g.kg-1 body mass) of high-carbohydrate foods with a high glycemic index. RESULTS: Muscle glycogen increased from preloading levels (+/- SE) of 109.1 +/- 8.2 to 198.2 +/- 13.1 mmol.kg-1 wet weight within only 24 h, these levels being comparable to or higher than those reported by others over a 2- to 6-d regimen. Densitometric analysis of muscle sections stained with periodic acid-Schiff not only corroborated these findings but also indicated that after 24 h of high-carbohydrate intake, glycogen stores reached similar levels in Type I, IIa, and IIb muscle fibers. CONCLUSION: This study shows that a combination of a short-term bout of high-intensity exercise followed by a high-carbohydrate intake enables athletes to attain supranormal muscle glycogen levels within only 24 h.

    PMID: 12048325 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    These studies point out that Hi Gi carbs replenish glycogen at a faster rate hardly a revelation and not really what we are looking for anyways, unless you plan to participate in another activity later on.
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    Onslaught is living up to his screen name. lol


    I've tried going low or complex only carb for PWO and it's just tough to recover. Even with the addition of high GI dextrose PWO, I don't seem to add any additional fat. One can and perhaps should add KR-ala to the PWO just to enhance the whole process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonesersRX7

    All the debate you could ever want is listed in about 10 of the threads in this link I posted...

    I don't see a reason to go into it further...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    These studies point out that Hi Gi carbs replenish glycogen at a faster rate hardly a revelation and not really what we are looking for anyways, unless you plan to participate in another activity later on.
    Wrong.

    Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings.

    Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M.

    Department of Sports Medicine, Australian Institute of Sport, Australian Capital Territory.

    The effect of the glycemic index (GI) of postexercise carbohydrate intake on muscle glycogen storage was investigated. Five well-trained cyclists undertook an exercise trial to deplete muscle glycogen (2 h at 75% of maximal O2 uptake followed by four 30-s sprints) on two occasions, 1 wk apart. For 24 h after each trial, subjects rested and consumed a diet composed exclusively of high-carbohydrate foods, with one trial providing foods with a high GI (HI GI) and the other providing foods with a low GI (LO GI). Total carbohydrate intake over the 24 h was 10 g/kg of body mass, evenly distributed between meals eaten 0, 4, 8, and 21 h postexercise. Blood samples were drawn before exercise, immediately after exercise, immediately before each meal, and 30, 60, and 90 min post-prandially. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately after exercise and after 24 h. When the effects of the immediate postexercise meal were excluded, the totals of the incremental glucose and insulin areas after each meal were greater (P < or = 0.05) for the HI GI meals than for the LO GI meals. The increase in muscle glycogen content after 24 h of recovery was greater (P = 0.02) with the HI GI diet (106 +/- 11.7 mmol/kg wet wt) than with the LO GI diet (71.5 +/- 6.5 mmol/kg). The results suggest that the most rapid increase in muscle glycogen content during the first 24 h of recovery is achieved by consuming foods with a high GI.
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    I tend to take in 50-75 grams of simple carbs such as sugar PWO along with my CEE and then 30 minutes later a protein only shake with 50-60grams of protein...then 30 minutes later between 60-90 grams of complex carbs usually from oats.

    I seem to maintain around 8-10% so I think it is working just fine... or is this actually working against me?

    i'm curious cause I have never seen any negative side effects of my PWO routine?

    regards,
    COTC
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    Complex carbs works as good as simple carbs for to restore muscle glycolegen

    1: Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2005 Jun;15(3):291-307. Related Articles, Links


    The metabolic responses to high carbohydrate meals with different glycemic indices consumed during recovery from prolonged strenuous exercise.

    Stevenson E, Williams C, Biscoe H.

    Sport and Exercise Nutrition Research Group, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, Loughborough University, Leicestershire, UK.

    This study investigated the metabolic responses to high glycemic index (HGI) or low glycemic index (LGI) meals consumed during recovery from prolonged exercise. Eight male, trained athletes undertook 2 trials. Following an overnight fast, subjects completed a 90-min run at 70% VO(2max). Meals were provided 30 min and 2 h following cessation of exercise. The plasma glucose responses to both meals were greater in the HGI trial compared to the LGI trial (P < 0.05). Following breakfast, there were no differences in the serum insulin concentrations between the trials; however, following lunch, concentrations were higher in the HGI trial compared to the LGI trial (P < 0.05). This suggests that the glycemic index of the carbohydrates consumed during the immediate post-exercise period might not be important as long as sufficient carbohydrate is consumed. The high insulin concentrations following a HGI meal later in the recovery period could facilitate further muscle glycogen resynthesis.
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    and it can make you fatter......!!!!!

    Glucose ingestion during exercise blunts exercise induced gene expression of skeletal muscle fat oxidative genes.

    Civitarese AE, Hesselink MK, Russell AP, Ravussin E, Schrauwen P.

    Human Physiology, Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA, USA.

    Ingestion of carbohydrate during exercise may blunt the stimulation of fat oxidative pathways by raising plasma insulin and glucose concentrations and lowering plasma free fatty acids (FFA) levels, thereby causing a marked shift in substrate oxidation. We investigated the effects of a single 2 hour bout of moderate-intensity exercise on the expression of key genes involved in fat and carbohydrate metabolism with or without glucose ingestion in seven healthy untrained men [22.7 +/- 0.6 y; BMI: 23.8 +/- 1.0 kg/m(2); VO2 max: 3.85 +/- 0.21 l/min]. Plasma FFA concentration increased during exercise (p<0.01) in the fasted state but remained unchanged after glucose ingestion whereas fat oxidation (indirect calorimetry) was higher in the fasted state vs. glucose feeding (p<0.05). Except for a significant decrease in the expression of pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase 4 (PDK4; p<0.05), glucose ingestion during exercise produced minimal effects on the expression of genes involved in carbohydrate utilization. However, glucose ingestion resulted in a decrease in the expression of genes involved in FA transport and oxidation (CD36, CPT-1, UCP3 and AMPK-alpha2; p<0.05). In conclusion, glucose ingestion during exercise decreases the expression of genes involved in lipid metabolism rather than increasing genes involved in carbohydrate metabolism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malek256
    The addition of fenugreek extract (Trigonella foenum-graecum) to glucose feeding increases muscle glycogen resynthesis after exercise.

    Ruby BC, Gaskill SE, Slivka D, Harger SG.

    Department of Health and Human Performance, The University of Montana, Missoula, Montana 59812-1825, USA. brent.ruby@mso.umt.edu

    The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of ingesting an oral supplement containing 4-Hydroxyisoleucine (4-OH-Ile, isolated from fenugreek seeds [Trigonella foenum-graecum]) with a glucose beverage on rates of post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis in trained male cyclists. Following an overnight fast (12 hr), subjects completed a 90-minute glycogen depletion ride after which a muscle biopsy was obtained from the vastus lateralis. Immediately and 2 hours after the muscle biopsy, subjects ingested either an oral dose of dextrose (Glu) (1.8 g.kg BW(-1)) or 4-OH-Ile supplement (Glu+4-OH-Ile, including 2.0 mg.kg(-1) 4-OH-Ile with the same oral dose of dextrose) with a second muscle biopsy 4 hours after exercise. Post exercise muscle glycogen concentration was similar for both trials. Overall, there was a significant increase in glucose and insulin concentrations from time 0 throughout the majority of the 4-hour recovery period, with no significant differences between the two trials at any time point. Although muscle glycogen concentration significantly increased from immediately post exercise to 4 hr of recovery for both trials, the net rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis was 63% greater during Glu+4-OH-Ile (10.6+/-3.3 vs. 6.5+/-2.6 g.kg wet wt.(-1).hr.(-1) for the Glu+4-OH-Ile and Glu trials, respectively). These data demonstrate that when the fenugreek extract supplement (4-OH-Ile) is added to a high oral dose of dextrose, rates of post-exercise glycogen resynthesis are enhanced above dextrose alone.
    .

    Realy intresting.......im going to add Fenugreek to my post workout drink and see what happens
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    Onslaught,
    Bobo has mentioned this a million times (at least!), but where is your link between increased glycogen synthesis and increased protein synthesis?
    Or maybe more importantly,can you show me a link between reduced glycogen replenishment rates and reduced protein synthesis?
    After all, its increased protein synthesis (or the lack thereof) we are interested in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew69
    Onslaught,
    Bobo has mentioned this a million times (at least!), but where is your link between increased glycogen synthesis and increased protein synthesis?
    Or maybe more importantly,can you show me a link between reduced glycogen replenishment rates and reduced protein synthesis?
    After all, its increased protein synthesis (or the lack thereof) we are interested in.
    Also of interest here -- when is muscle ready to be trained again and when can a *lack* of glycogen uptake/replenishment cause lethargy and an inability to exert sufficient intensity in the gym...

    You really cannot draw firm conclusions from any of these studies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew69
    Onslaught,
    Bobo has mentioned this a million times (at least!), but where is your link between increased glycogen synthesis and increased protein synthesis?
    Or maybe more importantly,can you show me a link between reduced glycogen replenishment rates and reduced protein synthesis?
    After all, its increased protein synthesis (or the lack thereof) we are interested in.
    Um, when did we decide to start talking about protein synthesis? No where did I say they were correlated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mass_builder
    Complex carbs works as good as simple carbs for to restore muscle glycolegen
    Complex vs Simple has nothing to do with GI. Maltodextrin is a complex carb and dextrose is a simple. Yet they have virtually the same GI.

    The complex is better than simple idea was dispelled a long time ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew69
    Onslaught,
    Bobo has mentioned this a million times (at least!), but where is your link between increased glycogen synthesis and increased protein synthesis?
    Or maybe more importantly,can you show me a link between reduced glycogen replenishment rates and reduced protein synthesis?
    After all, its increased protein synthesis (or the lack thereof) we are interested in.
    Actually, I can refute this, sort of. Anyway, like I said, this discussion was not about protein synthesis to begin with.

    After exercise, AR density drops considerably. It has been shown (in a study) that the use of glucose either during or after a workout (I don't remember which) helped to preserve AR density. It is also known that testosterone increases after a workout. Put these two together and we should have increased protein synthesis.


    http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...=29&pageID=354
    Finally, both the lysosomal breakdown of protein and the ATP-ubiquitin proteolytic system are suppressed by insulin [11,12], so adequate carbohydrate intake prior to, during and after strenuous exercise should help blunt these pathways of protein breakdown.


    Thus we have several strategies for reducing the breakdown of androgen receptor proteins after exercise, some as simple as eating to elevate insulin, as well as perhaps even increasing those receptor numbers with the use of certain anabolic steroids such as oxandrolone.
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    There will always be one study that counters another study. You guys can post studies for each side until your fingers fall off. What it comes down to is try each and see what works for YOU.
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    I'm pretty sure this one says that glycogen synthesis and recovery are correlated ("coupled").

    Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.

    Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL.

    Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of North Texas, Health Science Center at Fort Worth, Texas 76107, USA. johnivy@mail.utexas.edu

    The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement.

    Publication Types:

    * Clinical Trial
    * Randomized Controlled Trial


    PMID: 12580650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giantz11
    These studies point out that Hi Gi carbs replenish glycogen at a faster rate hardly a revelation and not really what we are looking for anyways, unless you plan to participate in another activity later on.
    not correct
    as a rule of thumb the body allways replenishes before rebuilding(its not that black and white, for all those who hate rules, but its a good way to think about it). the body always thinks about the next activity whether you like it or not. thats evolution. this idea was rehashed by Lyle mcdonald many times.
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    Arrow Suggestion...


    Quote Originally Posted by x_muscle
    Realy intresting.......im going to add Fenugreek to my post workout drink and see what happens
    My favourite concoction for post workout is here (and why):
    http://bodysculpters.com/articles/?page_id=7

    You might be interested (then again...maybe not LOL)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Actually, I can refute this, sort of. Anyway, like I said, this discussion was not about protein synthesis to begin with.

    After exercise, AR density drops considerably. It has been shown (in a study) that the use of glucose either during or after a workout (I don't remember which) helped to preserve AR density. It is also known that testosterone increases after a workout. Put these two together and we should have increased protein synthesis.


    http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...=29&pageID=354

    Actually its not this action of glucose that does this but the role insulin plays (by inhibiting protein degradatio) and the amount of insulin needed to accomplish these tasks is small.

    Consuming high GI thinking it helps recovery is incorrect because insulin isn't even the nutrient signal for skeletal muscle recovery, amino's acids are.

    Glut4 receptors are ehnanced with exercises alone. You are trying to open a door that is already open. THe physiological responses of the body after exercises compared to normal feding patterns is much different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Wrong.

    Prolonged exercises is nothing compared to resistance training. Comparing the physiological effects of a marathon runner to a weight lifter is inaccurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Um, when did we decide to start talking about protein synthesis? No where did I say they were correlated.

    BEcause if you are looking for recovery in terms of tissue repair, protein synthesis is what you should be looking at, not glycogen resynthesis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Actually its not this action of glucose that does this but the role insulin plays (by inhibiting protein degradatio) and the amount of insulin needed to accomplish these tasks is small.

    Consuming high GI thinking it helps recovery is incorrect because insulin isn't even the nutrient signal for skeletal muscle recovery, amino's acids are.

    Glut4 receptors are ehnanced with exercises alone. You are trying to open a door that is already open. THe physiological responses of the body after exercises compared to normal feding patterns is much different.

    His conclusion is this:

    "Finally, both the lysosomal breakdown of protein and the ATP-ubiquitin proteolytic system are suppressed by insulin [11,12], so adequate carbohydrate intake prior to, during and after strenuous exercise should help blunt these pathways of protein breakdown."

    which is true but you should be looking at the amount needed to creat this effect and if you do that you find its small.

    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise
    Scot R. Kimball1, Peter A. Farrell2, and Leonard S. Jefferson1

    1 Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey 17033; and 2 Noll Physiology Research Center, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802

    Protein synthesis in skeletal muscle is modulated in response to a variety of stimuli. Two stimuli receiving a great deal of recent attention are increased amino acid availability and exercise. Both of these effectors stimulate protein synthesis in part through activation of translation initiation. However, the full response of translation initiation and protein synthesis to either effector is not observed in the absence of a minimal concentration of insulin. The combination of insulin and either increased amino acid availability or endurance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis in part through activation of the ribosomal protein S6 protein kinase S6K1 as well as through enhanced association of eukaryotic initiation factor eIF4G with eIF4E, an event that promotes binding of mRNA to the ribosome. In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation. This review summarizes the results of a number of recent studies that have helped to establish our present understanding of the interactions of insulin, amino acids, and exercise in the regulation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    I'm pretty sure this one says that glycogen synthesis and recovery are correlated ("coupled").
    1. They are tlaking about recovery in terms of performance, not tissue reapir.

    2. They are comparing a sports drink to a carb/protein drink.


    I think we have to establish what people are tlaking about when they mean recovery. For me its tissue reapir. For others, its glyocgen replenishment for further exercise. If the situatiuon is the latter then of course a high GI source would be better IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdent7

    What would be interesting is to see which type of carb (complex or simple) controlling for g amounts displayed the greatest drop in mRNA, GLUT4 expression 3h post-exerc.

    As to what x-muscle was saying about it slowing recovery, it may indeed be the opposite. Fewer receptors after carb mean that x amount were utilized, and what remains is still usable for recovery. Gross oversimplification but the idea as a whole makes sense to me at least. Someone please enlighten me.

    Pudge.
    You should looking at amino acids then, not carb sources. Amino acids are the signals that enhance mRNA translation.

    Amino acids stimulate translation initiation and protein synthesis through an Akt-independent pathway in human skeletal muscle.

    Liu Z, Jahn LA, Wei L, Long W, Barrett EJ.

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA. zl3e@virginia.edu

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70(S6K)) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover. Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser(473), but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70(S6K) (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malek256
    Also of interest here -- when is muscle ready to be trained again and when can a *lack* of glycogen uptake/replenishment cause lethargy and an inability to exert sufficient intensity in the gym...

    You really cannot draw firm conclusions from any of these studies.
    Depends on the muscle but you will never have a time in wihch you are depleted from a workout. Glycogen depletion takes time (48 hours diet induced) or prolonged exhasutive exercise so the fear the one isn't replenished enough is uncalled for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifted
    There will always be one study that counters another study. You guys can post studies for each side until your fingers fall off. What it comes down to is try each and see what works for YOU.

    Yup.

    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.


    You seem to be missing the point though. Nobody is saying one or the other doesn't work. I am saying that they both work just as well but one has a lower chance of adipose storage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    In support of high GI:

    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (> or =1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

    PMID: 12617691 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    How does this support high GI?

    "Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface,"

    IOW, using high GI to open a door that is already open seems rather pointless to me.

    THis statement doesn't support it as well:

    "A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates."
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