Post workout high sugar drinks limits glucose muscle reuptake

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    Quote Originally Posted by x_muscle
    Realy intresting.......im going to add Fenugreek to my post workout drink and see what happens
    My favourite concoction for post workout is here (and why):
    http://bodysculpters.com/articles/?page_id=7

    You might be interested (then again...maybe not LOL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Actually, I can refute this, sort of. Anyway, like I said, this discussion was not about protein synthesis to begin with.

    After exercise, AR density drops considerably. It has been shown (in a study) that the use of glucose either during or after a workout (I don't remember which) helped to preserve AR density. It is also known that testosterone increases after a workout. Put these two together and we should have increased protein synthesis.


    http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...=29&pageID=354

    Actually its not this action of glucose that does this but the role insulin plays (by inhibiting protein degradatio) and the amount of insulin needed to accomplish these tasks is small.

    Consuming high GI thinking it helps recovery is incorrect because insulin isn't even the nutrient signal for skeletal muscle recovery, amino's acids are.

    Glut4 receptors are ehnanced with exercises alone. You are trying to open a door that is already open. THe physiological responses of the body after exercises compared to normal feding patterns is much different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Wrong.

    Prolonged exercises is nothing compared to resistance training. Comparing the physiological effects of a marathon runner to a weight lifter is inaccurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Um, when did we decide to start talking about protein synthesis? No where did I say they were correlated.

    BEcause if you are looking for recovery in terms of tissue repair, protein synthesis is what you should be looking at, not glycogen resynthesis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Actually its not this action of glucose that does this but the role insulin plays (by inhibiting protein degradatio) and the amount of insulin needed to accomplish these tasks is small.

    Consuming high GI thinking it helps recovery is incorrect because insulin isn't even the nutrient signal for skeletal muscle recovery, amino's acids are.

    Glut4 receptors are ehnanced with exercises alone. You are trying to open a door that is already open. THe physiological responses of the body after exercises compared to normal feding patterns is much different.

    His conclusion is this:

    "Finally, both the lysosomal breakdown of protein and the ATP-ubiquitin proteolytic system are suppressed by insulin [11,12], so adequate carbohydrate intake prior to, during and after strenuous exercise should help blunt these pathways of protein breakdown."

    which is true but you should be looking at the amount needed to creat this effect and if you do that you find its small.

    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise
    Scot R. Kimball1, Peter A. Farrell2, and Leonard S. Jefferson1

    1 Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, The Pennsylvania State University College of Medicine, Hershey 17033; and 2 Noll Physiology Research Center, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802

    Protein synthesis in skeletal muscle is modulated in response to a variety of stimuli. Two stimuli receiving a great deal of recent attention are increased amino acid availability and exercise. Both of these effectors stimulate protein synthesis in part through activation of translation initiation. However, the full response of translation initiation and protein synthesis to either effector is not observed in the absence of a minimal concentration of insulin. The combination of insulin and either increased amino acid availability or endurance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis in part through activation of the ribosomal protein S6 protein kinase S6K1 as well as through enhanced association of eukaryotic initiation factor eIF4G with eIF4E, an event that promotes binding of mRNA to the ribosome. In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation. This review summarizes the results of a number of recent studies that have helped to establish our present understanding of the interactions of insulin, amino acids, and exercise in the regulation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    I'm pretty sure this one says that glycogen synthesis and recovery are correlated ("coupled").
    1. They are tlaking about recovery in terms of performance, not tissue reapir.

    2. They are comparing a sports drink to a carb/protein drink.


    I think we have to establish what people are tlaking about when they mean recovery. For me its tissue reapir. For others, its glyocgen replenishment for further exercise. If the situatiuon is the latter then of course a high GI source would be better IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kdent7

    What would be interesting is to see which type of carb (complex or simple) controlling for g amounts displayed the greatest drop in mRNA, GLUT4 expression 3h post-exerc.

    As to what x-muscle was saying about it slowing recovery, it may indeed be the opposite. Fewer receptors after carb mean that x amount were utilized, and what remains is still usable for recovery. Gross oversimplification but the idea as a whole makes sense to me at least. Someone please enlighten me.

    Pudge.
    You should looking at amino acids then, not carb sources. Amino acids are the signals that enhance mRNA translation.

    Amino acids stimulate translation initiation and protein synthesis through an Akt-independent pathway in human skeletal muscle.

    Liu Z, Jahn LA, Wei L, Long W, Barrett EJ.

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA. zl3e@virginia.edu

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70(S6K)) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover. Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser(473), but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70(S6K) (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malek256
    Also of interest here -- when is muscle ready to be trained again and when can a *lack* of glycogen uptake/replenishment cause lethargy and an inability to exert sufficient intensity in the gym...

    You really cannot draw firm conclusions from any of these studies.
    Depends on the muscle but you will never have a time in wihch you are depleted from a workout. Glycogen depletion takes time (48 hours diet induced) or prolonged exhasutive exercise so the fear the one isn't replenished enough is uncalled for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifted
    There will always be one study that counters another study. You guys can post studies for each side until your fingers fall off. What it comes down to is try each and see what works for YOU.

    Yup.

    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.


    You seem to be missing the point though. Nobody is saying one or the other doesn't work. I am saying that they both work just as well but one has a lower chance of adipose storage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    In support of high GI:

    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (> or =1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

    PMID: 12617691 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    How does this support high GI?

    "Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface,"

    IOW, using high GI to open a door that is already open seems rather pointless to me.

    THis statement doesn't support it as well:

    "A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates."
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    THis sums the whole point up nicely:


    "This entire thread is marred by the simple fact that weight training is not a glycogen-depleting form of exercise. Sure, there will be some loss of glycogen stores, but nowhere near what is found from the type of glycogen-depleting protocols used in refeeding experiments. The type of high-intensity, rest-between-sets of weight lifting taxes the ATP-CP system heavily, but only has a small to moderate effect on glycogen reserves unless training volume is extremely high and/or there is little or no rest between sets and exercises.

    Not that this automatically invalidates everything that's been said, but it seems to me that we may well be comparing apples to oranges here. I know of no published studies which look at the effect of the post-workout meal on protein synthesis/degradation or glycogen synthesis after weight training.

    Janet Rankin did such a study two years ago in our department, and found no effect. Such an "unexciting" finding meant that it didn't get published, unfortunately.

    In another thread a while back, we discussed at length a human study which looked at the effects of insulin infusion, both at reast and post-exercise, on muscle protein synthesis. The bottom line was that insulin infusion increased muscle protein syntheses via its effects on vasodilation, which in turn caused a greater rate of amino acid deliver to muscle tissue under resting conditions.

    Post-exercise, when blood flow to muscles was already enhanced, insulin infusion had no further effect on protein synthesis. Thus, the idea that insulin spikes are anabolic in during post-workout conditions appears to be a myth, although there is still room for the anti-catabolic effects of insulin in the post workout state; however, the real-world significance of this for weight trainers is questionable.

    More important for anabolism would seem to be a high level of circulating amino acids both during the workout and post-workout, in addition to a high level of blood flow to the muscles."


    Even Tipton himself says the carb source is insignificant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman
    Onslaught is living up to his screen name. lol


    I've tried going low or complex only carb for PWO and it's just tough to recover. Even with the addition of high GI dextrose PWO, I don't seem to add any additional fat. One can and perhaps should add KR-ala to the PWO just to enhance the whole process.
    That is because recovery is based more on amino acids, not the carb source.
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    Spelling is getting worse....feeling weaker...must stop....
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    That's why he's the boss. Thanks for the re-edgamacation Bobo.

    Follow up question...is there any real point to using BCAA's if one is already using whey protein iso/conc mix? Seems to me like it's a waste of time and really, why take in an incomplete amino profile when you can ingest all the pertinant aminos with whey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malek256
    My favourite concoction for post workout is here (and why):
    http://bodysculpters.com/articles/?page_id=7

    You might be interested (then again...maybe not LOL)
    Hum i will try this recipe soon...although i dont think glutamine is useful, but i have some laying around so i may try it as well.I may add some ALA also to increase insulin sensitivity.
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    The article is serisously flawed because he is associating hepatic IGF-1 to MGF (localized GF within skeletal muscle). Its MGF that causes growth and that is more influenced by the type of exercise (stimuli to increased ECC times). The rise in IGF-1 will happen regardless and it actually influenced moreso by overall diet over longer periods of time, not what you eat within a 2 hour period.


    I won't even go into the glutamine issue. Using ALA and any other nutrient dispersals post workout seems pointless to me as well looking at the studies. If you arne't insulin resistant it doens't show much benefit.
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    please do though, i would like to know.
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    Damn, bobo was even quoting himself and disecting that...lol. thx for the explanation, I also use a protein/low GI mix for my P-wo shake (as per your advice Bobo) and realized that it was the better option for myself as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman
    That's why he's the boss. Thanks for the re-edgamacation Bobo.

    Follow up question...is there any real point to using BCAA's if one is already using whey protein iso/conc mix? Seems to me like it's a waste of time and really, why take in an incomplete amino profile when you can ingest all the pertinant aminos with whey.
    Why not focus more on casein protein as it is slowly released into the bloodstream, maintaining a steady level of aminos for many hours? Moreover, taking BCAAs with a mixed meal pre-w/o could slow their entry into the bloodstream. Sounds right, at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Depends on the muscle but you will never have a time in wihch you are depleted from a workout. Glycogen depletion takes time (48 hours diet induced) or prolonged exhasutive exercise so the fear the one isn't replenished enough is uncalled for.
    Very true, I assumed we were discussing this with the most common type of diet I see lately which is guys keeping carbs for use only post workout in a 3x weekly workout series. So glycogen depletion is right on the cusp of occurence with these since they tend to go 2 days with no carbs (and then hit the weights). Bad assumption on my part.

    Glutamine is very interesting -- seems that about 30% of "really skinny" dudes who give it a go report gains while they're taking it. I've seen references that it may calm some forms of irritable bowel and this may be why it is effective for the 1 in 3 guys. (EDIT: forgot to mention, gluten intolerance is one of these that L-Glutamine helps to calm) Now the gains and "feeling better" reported could be placebo of course...However if you're pressed for cash, L-Glutamine's the first one I'd drop, as you'll note that 1 in 3 working is the same as 2 in 3 "not working".

    Something to consider before cell shuttlers are passed over though -- Insulin resistance is a gradual condition and is not something that's really noticable in early stages, especially since the focus that bodybuilders have on "clean diet" tends to slow it (and often eventually reverses it).

    Why does this matter? Many lifters who are "new" to bodybuilding or who have had a less than stellar diet for years previous may benefit (signficiantly for some) from cellular shuttlers as they may well be insulin resistant to a lesser or greater degree and be ignorant of the condition. Insulin resistance is not a binary condition ("on" or "off") there are varying levels which can fluctuate. Another means of reducing insulin resistance which is hypothesized is the use of such insulin mimetics since the insulin response is lessened when they are present. I do not see convincing evidence to confirm it absolutely however.
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    Definitely some interesting stuff Bobo, thanks. I have some questions have too much work to do before I can reread this thread and formulate them.
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    Arrow


    Quote Originally Posted by x_muscle
    Realy intresting.......im going to add Fenugreek to my post workout drink and see what happens
    Have you noticed a difference?
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    I have been using Biotest Surge for my post workout drink. I think it is 49 carbs of simple sugars and 25 or so protein, for a total of 350 calories.

    If we are not supposed to use such a product, then what are we supposed to use post workout? I AM insulin resistant to a degree and really don't use sugary products most of the time except during my two hour window, and am also trying to cut. I do not have any feelings of blood sugar problems when consuming Surge post workout as it seems to fill a need my body has. If I don't eat or use the Surge post workout, then I can get light headed pretty quick.

    If not a Surge type of product then what should I be consuming post workout?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malek256
    Have you noticed a difference?

    Fenugreek+creatine post workout= amazing bumps, similar to NO type product.
    I realy like it, but im taking it with bunch of other stuff. wiered thing is that everytime it take it post workout i get feeling that i ate a big meal, and im kinda full.
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    I am bumping this......I would really like to know what Bobo or others thinks the optimum post workout drink or meal is for fast recovery and growth and minimum adipose storage.
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    oats, with milk and a protein shake immediately PostWO.. followed by a grilled chicken breast served over your favorite low GI rice an hour later!

    but i'm just guessing
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    Wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houseman
    Wrong.
    Would you care to contribute or keep us wondering?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. V
    Would you care to contribute or keep us wondering?
    Pay for his services and find out for yourself.

    I don't think anyone should hand out info garnered through Bobo's training programs. Not on here at least. He helps a lot in general with this posting but doesn't give everything away.

    He has bills to pay as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by houseman
    Pay for his services and find out for yourself.

    I don't think anyone should hand out info garnered through Bobo's training programs. Not on here at least. He helps a lot in general with this posting but doesn't give everything away.

    He has bills to pay as well.
    Then stop responding to posts with dead end answers. Go back to your hole. Why are you here anyway if you are paying Bobo for all the answers?
    You don't need this forum and are certainly not willing to contribute....so why are you here?
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