ATD instead of HCG?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by bow
    Not if ALR's contention is correct, which is that it binds at a much lower rate peripherally. Which begs the question, can an AI show a higher binding rate for certain tissues? Let me give you a hint, you mentioned Tamoxifen....
    Bow, I read that article ALR has on readthecore and it does say that its affinity to binding to the hypothalamus is higher than in other tissues. This may very well be the case, but does anybody have a study showing this? The below articles are very informative but dont explicitly state this, unless Im just reading it wrong.


  2. I'm just gonna say again that I willl patiently await ALR's further explanation. I know he is busy, but I expect at some time he'll let us know a bit more, since he opened this idea up publicly. However, I'll say in honesty that I wish the ALRI team would be a bit more vocal on the subject. Or perhaps they simply don't know yet either. I've asked repeatedly for info, at least particulars on the ALRI products (HOT/HOTter), yet don't get responses, unfortunately...
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  3. Not too surprising, from what I've seen, he doesn't explain much of anything, nor use references that actually hold any value.

  4. No, but ALRI stuff works. Like him or not (I personally like the guy), his stuff WORKS.
    So I use his stuff.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by N4cer
    No, but ALRI stuff works. Like him or not (I personally like the guy), his stuff WORKS.
    So I use his stuff.
    Most of it works, prostan has not been all the rage it was cracked up to be unless stacked with something stronger, but no supplement line is perfect. Just like many other supplement companies who are releasing designer supplements, they are just reinventing the wheel. DMT has been around since the 70's.
    *Not trying to be a smart ass, just stating an observation*

  6. Quote Originally Posted by N4cer
    No, but ALRI stuff works. Like him or not (I personally like the guy), his stuff WORKS.
    So I use his stuff.
    And just so you understand, I have a bottle of E-Max at my house, so I use his stuff too.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Not too surprising, from what I've seen, he doesn't explain much of anything, nor use references that actually hold any value.
    actually I have always found Author to be quite willing to discuss questions and explain things in the past. Same with the ALRI team. This ATD issue, however seems to be an exception. I've been posting queries about ALR's take on ATD and the HCG issue (stemming from the "Core" article), as well as questions on dosing requirements and ATD content of UH/ HOTter for over 2 weeks in a number of threads (and even in PM's). Apparently either nobody knows or nobody's telling!

  8. My experience with Author and the ALRI team is that they do not comment on the board on a daily basis. Usually they are not heard from for a number of days and then appear to answer as many of the questions as they can. When they do answer I have found them to be helpful and friendly. I think we were coming to the end of one of their "few day" absent periods when this issue about the reporter contacting them started and since they have not been heard of except in regard to that issue. I imagine that some things will change this week when their new site goes up.



    Quote Originally Posted by milwood
    actually I have always found Author to be quite willing to discuss questions and explain things in the past. Same with the ALRI team. This ATD issue, however seems to be an exception. I've been posting queries about ALR's take on ATD and the HCG issue (stemming from the "Core" article), as well as questions on dosing requirements and ATD content of UH/ HOTter for over 2 weeks in a number of threads (and even in PM's). Apparently either nobody knows or nobody's telling!

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mr.50
    . I think we were coming to the end of one of their "few day" absent periods when this issue about the reporter contacting them started and since they have not been heard of except in regard to that issue. I imagine that some things will change this week when their new site goes up.
    You pretty much hit the nail on the head. You guys just need ti chill til that thing blows over.

    Self preservation...

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    You pretty much hit the nail on the head. You guys just need ti chill til that thing blows over.

    Self preservation...
    Eh, ok, that sounds reasonable.
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Sky9
    Bow, I read that article ALR has on readthecore and it does say that its affinity to binding to the hypothalamus is higher than in other tissues. This may very well be the case, but does anybody have a study showing this? The below articles are very informative but dont explicitly state this, unless Im just reading it wrong.

    There is a study to support the notion that atd demonstrates tissue preference, at least in terms of aramotase activity. I posted this a while back in this thread:

    ATD and site-specific androgen receptor agonists

    ______________________________ ____________________
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1984 Dec;59(6):1088-96.

    Inhibition of aromatization stimulates luteinizing hormone and testosterone secretion in adult male rhesus monkeys.
    Ellinwood WE, Hess DL, Roselli CE, Spies HG, Resko JA.


    Experiments were conducted to examine the role of aromatization in the control of LH and testosterone secretion in adult male rhesus monkeys. Treatment of male monkeys (n = 7) with sc Silastic packets containing the aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) resulted in 1.5- to 3-fold elevations in serum LH and testosterone concentrations in six of seven animals. Concurrent treatment of ATD-treated monkeys with small quantities of estradiol-17 beta (n = 4) abolished the stimulatory effect of ATD. During ATD treatment, peripheral estradiol levels were reduced by 30% and hypothalamic aromatase activity, as determined in vitro, was reduced 80-90%. The lack of androgenic or antiandrogenic activity of ATD was demonstrated by its inactivity in either a mouse seminal vesicle bioassay or a highly sensitive penile spine bioassay. Furthermore, ATD did not react with rat prostatic or hypothalamic cytosol androgen receptors. 1,4,6-Androstatriene-17-ol-3-one, a possible metabolite of ATD in vivo, did react with prostatic and hypothalamic androgen receptors, but possessed no antiandrogenic activity in either bioassay. Thus, treatment of adult males with an aromatase inhibitor that inhibits both peripheral and central aromatization, and which has no apparent antiandrogenic activity, results in stimulation of LH and testosterone secretion. These data demonstrate that aromatization of androgens to estrogens plays an important role in negative feedback regulation of LH secretion and maintenance of normal testosterone levels in adult male primates.

  12. Another interesting development came to light recently at Avant. The study below was recently posted in this thread:

    http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php...ic=15482&st=60

    This may explain why some are seeing increased test levels while administering exogenous hormones and experiencing a decrease in LH and FSH. Could ATD be giving a false result for an increase in test? Perhaps this explains Anarchy’s bloodwork and ATD in no way directly stimulates the testies. Its worth discussion.

    Steroids. 1980 Dec;36(6):717-21.

    Immunological interference of the synthetic aromatase inhibitor 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) and its metabolite(s) in the radioimmunoassay for testosterone.

    Donaldson MD, Forest MG.

    Radioimmunoassay (RIA) for testosterone (T) in unchromatographed plasma extracts from ATD-treated rats gave spuriously high values for T. Cross-reaction and chromatographic studies subsequently showed that ATD and, to a much greater extent, its metabolite(s) were responsible for this overestimation. Celite column chromatography proved to be an effective way of separating T from ATD and its product(s) of metabolism.

  13. bow, you highlighted the least interesting part of the last study you posted, as far as this discuss goes, the following is of way more interest to us:

    The lack of androgenic or antiandrogenic activity of ATD was demonstrated by its inactivity in either a mouse seminal vesicle bioassay or a highly sensitive penile spine bioassay.
    Granted, these are rat studies and done in vitro, take this together with another study showing anti-androgenic activity in the brain and we have ourselves a SARM.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    bow, you highlighted the least interesting part of the last study you posted, as far as this discuss goes, the following is of way more interest to us...

    I highlighted the part of the study that addresses the question asked (with regards to preferential tissue sensitivity).

    There is no question (as emphasized by the section of the study you posted) that we are far from proving ATD is a hypothalamic site specific ar agonist. My argument with the thread I linked above is exactly that the studies are contradictory and far from being conclusive.

  15. But the problem here is that it appears there is at least the possibility that ATD is not really raising Test at all but just giving a false positive???? That is how I read it but maybe I am missing something. I can say though that the boys really felt much fuller to me when I was on Ultra Hot. I know tha is subjective but it was quite noticable.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by milwood
    actually I have always found Author to be quite willing to discuss questions and explain things in the past. Same with the ALRI team. This ATD issue, however seems to be an exception. I've been posting queries about ALR's take on ATD and the HCG issue (stemming from the "Core" article), as well as questions on dosing requirements and ATD content of UH/ HOTter for over 2 weeks in a number of threads (and even in PM's). Apparently either nobody knows or nobody's telling!
    You are aksing questions in wihch the leading endocrinologists don't evne have answers to. The majority of ALL of this is theoretical so if you want "answers" that there is proof of any kind you will never get it. You can ask Dr. Crisler the same questions and he simply won't know. His HCG treatment that most of you take as "law" was criticized heavily within the medical community. Most of their comments are based on clinical results, not published work. HRT and its effects are in its infancy. Most of the answers you will ever get are based on SOME studies and theory.


    And I doubt he is going to answer anything in the near future...
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  17. Thanks Bow, I appreciate the literature.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You are aksing questions in wihch the leading endocrinologists don't evne have answers to. The majority of ALL of this is theoretical so if you want "answers" that there is proof of any kind you will never get it. You can ask Dr. Crisler the same questions and he simply won't know. His HCG treatment that most of you take as "law" was criticized heavily within the medical community. Most of their comments are based on clinical results, not published work. HRT and its effects are in its infancy. Most of the answers you will ever get are based on SOME studies and theory.


    And I doubt he is going to answer anything in the near future...
    So whats your take on ATD vs HCG Bobo??? Is it as effective for keeping the boys pumping while on cycle?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Sky9
    Most of it works, prostan has not been all the rage it was cracked up to be unless stacked with something stronger, but no supplement line is perfect. Just like many other supplement companies who are releasing designer supplements, they are just reinventing the wheel. DMT has been around since the 70's.
    *Not trying to be a smart ass, just stating an observation*
    And how do you make this judgement? I could smell this one from a mile away. People expect gains similar to the rest of their compunds without even understand that its "winny like effects" would probably produce VERY little in terms of LBM. Its a cutting agent.

    Once again, the results are coming form inexperienced users who probably shouldn't be using it in the first place.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Sky9
    So whats your take on ATD vs HCG Bobo??? Is it as effective for keeping the boys pumping while on cycle?
    As I said before they were a sponsor and to this day I don't think it will be as effective as HCG. THat doens't mean it doesn't work but there isn't enoug evidence that I see. But Author usually has bloodwork that supports his arguements....He posted them earlier with Ulta Hot and they were pretty impressive but thats gone now...
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Onslaught
    Not too surprising, from what I've seen, he doesn't explain much of anything, nor use references that actually hold any value.
    News to me. He has posted several studies along wth clincial trials for several products but it seems most people would rtather listen to the bull**** negative hype than actually read what was posted 3 montsh ago.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    As I said before they were a sponsor and to this day I don't think it will be as effective as HCG. THat doens't mean it doesn't work but there isn't enoug evidence that I see. But Author usually has bloodwork that supports his arguements....He posted them earlier with Ulta Hot and they were pretty impressive but thats gone now...
    what's your best guess as to dosing protocol for ATD on cycle, Bobo? 25, 50, 75mg/day?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by milwood
    what's your best guess as to dosing protocol for ATD on cycle, Bobo? 25, 50, 75mg/day?
    In one of thecore.com issues, ALR talked about it a bit. I believe his people were taking something like 3-4 pills/day, which would be roughly 50mg of ATD according to numbers by--yes, i know, i know--pat arnold who speculted there were about 15mg ATD per UH pill.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    In one of thecore.com issues, ALR talked about it a bit. I believe his people were taking something like 3-4 pills/day, which would be roughly 50mg of ATD according to numbers by--yes, i know, i know--pat arnold who speculted there were about 15mg ATD per UH pill.
    does anyone know conclusively how much ATD is in a HOT cap?

  25. I believe it is ~18mg for the older version but the new one is a different compound

  26. Quote Originally Posted by ryansm
    I can only speculate based off of my expericnce with ATD used in this manner. I recently ran a cycle of SD/ATD that went something along the lines of this:

    week 1 30mgs SD 100mgs ATD
    week 2 30mgs SD 75mgs ATD
    week 3 30mgs SD 50mgs ATD
    week 4 30mgs SD 25mgs ATD

    week 5 40mgs Nolva 25mgs ATD
    week 6 30mgs Nolva 50mgs ATD
    week 7 20mgs Nolva 75mgs ATD
    week 8 10mgs Nolva 100mgs ATD

    I understand that this is not a long ester AAS cycle, but I did have the BEST pct I have ever had, and retained all of my gains along with gaining strength during pct. Next up I will add ActivaTe to the mix.

    To add I did use fenugreek, but I always do.

    Ryansm,
    What 's the reasoning behind increasing the ATD dose weekly during PCT? I think I've seen others including maybe Dr. D recommend this strategy as well yet in the DS forum it's recommended that one ramps down the ATD dose during PCT.

    A little off topic, but I'm really curious.

  27. bumping this thread for another question. I know the answer won't be coming from ALR, so those of you who have helped with a lot of info might suggest.

    Would the use of ATD and HCG during a cycle be any good? I started with ATD, but now am using HCG. I stopped the ATD as such, but does anyone think running both would work or not?

  28. Quote Originally Posted by jas123
    Ryansm,
    What 's the reasoning behind increasing the ATD dose weekly during PCT? I think I've seen others including maybe Dr. D recommend this strategy as well yet in the DS forum it's recommended that one ramps down the ATD dose during PCT.

    A little off topic, but I'm really curious.
    Not too sure, but I believe it is a preventative measure to diminish rebound estrogen levels.
  

  
 

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