Yohimbe and its Alkaloids Should be Banned: An Unpopular, Quick Think Piece

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    Plenty of people have proposed solutions ITT. How does saying we should enforce our regulations better mean nothing? Iíd wager the companies with yohimbine products that didnít meet label claims werenít in full GMP compliance. How about making sure companies comply with this? Regular checks. Etc. Proof of testing ingredient sources; probably a ton of companies just buy garbage raws and have no idea whatís in them. Also, until then, how about donít buy from random brands that donít claim to be GMP compliant. Also, donít buy supplements from your neighborhood pharmacy or grocery store; 4/6 of the stores supplements in this study were purchased from were pharmacies or grocery stores, so not exactly ideal brands. Also, you read literally one study and are calling for a complete ban. Thatís silly man. How about asking for more research to confirm it? You donít like yohimbine, we get it...
    Jiigz proposed something. Not plenty of people. ďEnforce moreĒ means nothing because thatís the most open ended, political response. Okay, enforce more... how? Give tangible ideas.

    Cohen produced one study, and references 3 (references 7-9 in his paper). ďPrior studies have also found yohimbine supplements to contain from 0% to 368% of the labeled quantity of yohimbine.7-9Ē


  2. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Let me start off this post with my personal thoughts. In a perfect world, what supplement companies place on a label is what is contained in the product, thus mitigating the need for any regulatory involvement. As seen below, this isnít 100%. Therefore, I believe it is in consumers best interests to ban yohimbe and its alkaloids in dietary supplements. I believe people should be able to consume what they want, but only if theyíre certain of what theyíre consuming. This is fundamentally necessary. I write this piece knowing my opinion wonít be popular. I hope you continue reading so the community can have a healthy debate on the topic.


    What is Yohimbe?
    Yohimbe is an evergreen tree native to Western and Central Africa. Yohimbine, which is commonly used in dietary supplements, is found within the bark. Yohimbe has a host of other alkaloids, however yohimbine is what is most commonly consumed.


    Dosages used?
    Dosage varies, but for fat burning, 0.2mg/kg bodyweight is common with yohimbine. This amount is reduced quite a bit if taken with synergists. A good read here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...orner-4-a.html


    Benefits?
    Erectile Dysfunction: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9649257/

    Fat Loss: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17214405/


    Side effects?
    Anxiety, Cortisol, Blood Pressure, Heart Rate: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21710402

    [granted, this was done at 0.4mg/kg, but people have similar side effects at lower dosages as well]


    Whatís the big concern?
    What I want to discuss today isnít the concern of the side effects. These are easily found all over the internet. My concern is that we donít know how much weíre consuming. Below we can see that labeling inaccuracies run rampant, and it truly matters for an ingredient that is stimulatory, potentially anxiogenic, and dosed in the small milligrams range.

    Cohen et all analyzed 49 brands of supplements labelled as containing yohimbe or yohimbine. They shopped at seven major retailers. 11/49 listed a specific quantity of yohimbine, while the rest didnít specify the amount (assuming a prop blend). Of the 11 that listed an exact amount, actual content ranged from 23% to 147% of what the label claimed.

    ďThe quantity of the most active alkaloid, yohimbine, per recommended serving ranged from none detected to 12.1 mg. Thirty‐nine percent of the supplements (19/49) did not contain rauwolscine and corynanthine suggesting that the yohimbine was either from highly processed plant extract or synthetic in origin. Only 11 supplement brands (22%, 11/49) listed a specific quantity of yohimbine on the label. Most of these were inaccurately labelled (actual content ranged from 23% to 147% of the content on the label). Eighteen percent (9/49) of the supplements' labels did not provide any information about yohimbine's adverse effects. Of the 49 yohimbine supplement brands sold at seven major retail chains in the USA, only 4.1% (2/49) provided consumers with both accurate information about the quantity of yohimbine as well as information about yohimbine's known adverse effects.Ē
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....1002/dta.1849

    Another time label claim issues came up:

    "The chromatographic fingerprint analysis was applied to the analysis of 18 yohimbe commercial dietary supplement samples. Quantitation of yohimbine, the traditional method for analysis of yohimbe barks, were also performed to evaluate the results of the fingerprint analysis. Wide variability was observed in fingerprints and yohimbine content among yohimbe dietary supplement samples. For most of the dietary supplements, the yohimbine content was not consistent with the label claims."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...?dopt=Abstract

    Yohimbine supplements have been banned in other countries already. People react unpredictably, which is made worse by the fact that labels may be inaccurate.

    Thoughts?
    While I generally HATE any "ban" (especially by a gov't agency), I have to agree with you here. Yohimbe bark contains at least 28 known alkaloids, and companies very rarely understand themselves what's in their products. Hell, most of the "alpha Y" on the market is straight yohimbe, and messing your dose up just a little - can have dire consequences. At a minimum, bulk Yohimbe needs to be banned. He screwed his dosage up and the next phone call I got was from his sister..

    "Rob, This is Ang. John's in the hospital and can't breathe on his own. Do you know what he took...?" Folks, you do NOT want to take that phone call. The truth is I didn't know what he took, only learned it was Yohimbe later after he came out of it (thank God). Fact is, you don't need to over-dose on it as it has one of the most volatile dose/response curves in the general population. Meaning even a "by the book" dose can get very dicey, very fast. Throw it in the mix with ephedrine, caffeine, DMAA or other stims and you're really asking for it.

    And know this: Yohimbe sides are nasty. Sky high blood pressure, the chills (while you sweat buckets), goosebumps on your forearms that don't go away, shaking and paranoia are just a sampling of what you're in for.

    People think steroids are dangerous. You think so? If I line up a bottle of D-bol and a bottle of Yohimbe and say to you... "which one could you swallow the entire bottle of, and be absolutely certain you won't die"? The smart person will choose Dbol every time. The Yohimbe? Good night Irene. And you're going to feel like death every step of the way, until your breathing shuts down too...
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Jiigz proposed something. Not plenty of people. ďEnforce moreĒ means nothing because thatís the most open ended, political response. Okay, enforce more... how? Give tangible ideas.

    Cohen produced one study, and references 3 (references 7-9 in his paper). ďPrior studies have also found yohimbine supplements to contain from 0% to 368% of the labeled quantity of yohimbine.7-9Ē
    Require a company to prove they meet GMP compliance before selling products? GMP facility, ingredient testing, QA/QC practices, etc. If a company was found to not do this, impose harsh penalties. Iím not a lawyer, so I canít really go beyond that level of detail. Also do regular checks to endure compliance with procedures and requirements. Also have a list of companies who do comply, and those who have violations, and if the violations have been remedied. Let the consumer decide which companies deserve their trust. Make a database that is easily searchable by Company for this.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Jiigz proposed something. Not plenty of people. “Enforce more” means nothing because that’s the most open ended, political response. Okay, enforce more... how? Give tangible ideas.

    Cohen produced one study, and references 3 (references 7-9 in his paper). “Prior studies have also found yohimbine supplements to contain from 0% to 368% of the labeled quantity of yohimbine.7-9”
    it's been found that most multi vitamins are misdosed....certain vitamins can kill you if you take too much, or if you overdose on iron, your dead

    if you really want to rid the problem, you need a governing agency to test each batch of supplements getting put out....problem with that is, the cost will skyrocket products prices and eliminate even good companies that follow the rules that wouldn't be able to afford the testing necessary....I could be wrong but I also believe they tried to do something with "new" ingredients needing specific testing which could then limit the advances in supplementation

    A person who may benefit from fish oil at lets say $10 a bottle maybe wouldn't be willing to pay $30 a bottle for the same product if the companies had to submit and go through more strict testing just to put their product out
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    This isnít the argument. Again, what if you buy a ď5mg yohimbine productĒ one day and have no issues. Then the next time, you buy a similar ď5mg yohimbine productĒ, but react completely differently due to their being more in the product then listed?
    most people that are sensitive to Yohimbe report issues with even small amounts, I know this because I have seen it posted too many times to count. if you react badly to a ingredient and continue to use it hoping for better results then it is on you!!!
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    most people that are sensitive to Yohimbe report issues with even small amounts, I know this because I have seen it posted too many times to count. if you react badly to a ingredient and continue to use it hoping for better results then it is on you!!!
    This is off topic. Iíll try to simplify further. Please try to reply to the hypothetical story below. Iím not intending for this to be belittling.

    Alfred is looking for a product to assist in fat loss. Heís searching all over the internet and comes across yohimbine. He reads up on benefits and side effects. Alfred is now an informed consumer! Alfred goes to the store and buys a yohimbine product. It contains ďxĒ amount of yohimbine. Alfred takes the product, and loves it! He continues to take it no problem. Alfred runs out of the product, so goes to the store to buy another. Itís sold out, oh no! Well, fortunately there is an alternative product that provides yohimbine in the exact same dosage. Alfred goes home, takes the amount heís normally accustom to, and hates it! Heís got cold sweats, anxiety, and it turns into a panic attack. ďWhy oh why did this happenĒ, thinks Alfred. He did all the research and knows what to expect at the dosage he took. Alfred is confused. He doesnít understand how he can react so differently from product A and identical product B.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    This is off topic. I’ll try to simplify further. Please try to reply to the hypothetical story below. I’m not intending for this to be belittling.

    Alfred is looking for a product to assist in fat loss. He’s searching all over the internet and comes across yohimbine. He reads up on benefits and side effects. Alfred is now an informed consumer! Alfred goes to the store and buys a yohimbine product. It contains “x” amount of yohimbine. Alfred takes the product, and loves it! He continues to take it no problem. Alfred runs out of the product, so goes to the store to buy another. It’s sold out, oh no! Well, fortunately there is an alternative product that provides yohimbine in the exact same dosage. Alfred goes home, takes the amount he’s normally accustom to, and hates it! He’s got cold sweats, anxiety, and it turns into a panic attack. “Why oh why did this happen”, thinks Alfred. He did all the research and knows what to expect at the dosage he took. Alfred is confused. He doesn’t understand how he can react so differently from product A and identical product B.
    Please try to reply to the hypothetical story below. I'm not intending for this to be belittling.


    Amy is looking for the most delicious cola soft drink possible. She's searching all over the internet and comes across Coca-Cola. She reads up on the reviews and finds that it is the most popular cola soft drink in the USA. Amy is now an informed consumer. Amy goes to the store and buys Coca-Cola. It contains the same basic ingredients as other cola soft drinks available, yet it is consistently rated as the best tasting cola soft drink available. Amy drinks the Coca-Cola, and loves it! She continues to drink it for months on end with no problems. Amy finally runs out of Coca-Cola, so she goes to the store to buy more. It's sold out, oh no! Well fortunately there is an alternative product that claims to be a cola soft drink by the name of RC-cola. It contains the same basic ingredients. Amy goes home, drinks the same amount shes accustomed to, and hates it! She claims the drink is so vile that it made her tongue burn and her skin crawl. "Why oh why did this happen", thinks Amy. She did all the research and knows what to expect with a can of cola soft drink. Amy is confused. She doesn't understand how she can react so differently from product A and an extremely similar product B.




    Your little story makes a ton of assumptions. Banning yohimbine doesn't make sense in this instance. It should be more tightly regulated in that manufactures should be held to a higher standard and be forced to label APPROPRIATELY. You claim to have 8mg of yohimbine, prove it. You claim to have 8mg of yohimbe bark, prove it.

    Banning this doesn't help anyone in reality. What is next? We ban caffeine because someone has a negative response to caffeine in a proprietary blend? No. We make it so manufacturers can't get away with nonsense proprietary blends, and if someone produces an illegal label they should be held legally responsible.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    This is off topic. I’ll try to simplify further. Please try to reply to the hypothetical story below. I’m not intending for this to be belittling.

    Alfred is looking for a product to assist in fat loss. He’s searching all over the internet and comes across yohimbine. He reads up on benefits and side effects. Alfred is now an informed consumer! Alfred goes to the store and buys a yohimbine product. It contains “x” amount of yohimbine. Alfred takes the product, and loves it! He continues to take it no problem. Alfred runs out of the product, so goes to the store to buy another. It’s sold out, oh no! Well, fortunately there is an alternative product that provides yohimbine in the exact same dosage. Alfred goes home, takes the amount he’s normally accustom to, and hates it! He’s got cold sweats, anxiety, and it turns into a panic attack. “Why oh why did this happen”, thinks Alfred. He did all the research and knows what to expect at the dosage he took. Alfred is confused. He doesn’t understand how he can react so differently from product A and identical product B.
    usually on label it will tell you to start at lowest dose to access tolerance.....lots of guys jump right in at full dose on stimulant products when it is clearly stated to start at lower dose, who is to blame for this-ban all stimulant based products because people can't/won't/don't follow instructions?


    I am guilty of this, my stim tolerance is very high I always jump in at full dose---one day i will take a stim break and come back at full dose i was taking before and it will probably bite me on the ass-and it will be my fault, not the product!!!
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Please try to reply to the hypothetical story below. I'm not intending for this to be belittling.


    Amy is looking for the most delicious cola soft drink possible. She's searching all over the internet and comes across Coca-Cola. She reads up on the reviews and finds that it is the most popular cola soft drink in the USA. Amy is now an informed consumer. Amy goes to the store and buys Coca-Cola. It contains the same basic ingredients as other cola soft drinks available, yet it is consistently rated as the best tasting cola soft drink available. Amy drinks the Coca-Cola, and loves it! She continues to drink it for months on end with no problems. Amy finally runs out of Coca-Cola, so she goes to the store to buy more. It's sold out, oh no! Well fortunately there is an alternative product that claims to be a cola soft drink by the name of RC-cola. It contains the same basic ingredients. Amy goes home, drinks the same amount shes accustomed to, and hates it! She claims the drink is so vile that it made her tongue burn and her skin crawl. "Why oh why did this happen", thinks Amy. She did all the research and knows what to expect with a can of cola soft drink. Amy is confused. She doesn't understand how she can react so differently from product A and an extremely similar product B.




    Your little story makes a ton of assumptions. Banning yohimbine doesn't make sense in this instance. It should be more tightly regulated in that manufactures should be held to a higher standard and be forced to label APPROPRIATELY. You claim to have 8mg of yohimbine, prove it. You claim to have 8mg of yohimbe bark, prove it.

    Banning this doesn't help anyone in reality. What is next? We ban caffeine because someone has a negative response to caffeine in a proprietary blend? No. We make it so manufacturers can't get away with nonsense proprietary blends, and if someone produces an illegal label they should be held legally responsible.
    Your analogy is not remotely the same.

    So, your thought is that every company should prove how much of each ingredient is in every product?

    Iím interested.

    Whoís conducts the testing? Is it for every batch? Is it just before a product is launched? Where is the info stored for easy access by consumers? Who oversees the process to ensure compliance? What sort of penalties are put in place for violations? What sort of price implications does this have on the final product?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Your analogy is not remotely the same.

    So, your thought is that every company should prove how much of each ingredient is in every product?

    I’m interested.

    Who’s conducts the testing? Is it for every batch? Is it just before a product is launched? Where is the info stored for easy access by consumers? Who oversees the process to ensure compliance? What sort of penalties are put in place for violations? What sort of price implications does this have on the final product?
    Labels should be open-label, MANDATORY. Proprietary blends should be banned, not ingredients.

    If a company wants to sell a product, they should already be conducting purity/potency testing on both the raws and the finished products (according to the FDA). So they SHOULD already be paying for the testing on each ingredient.

    A dietary supplement company should be conducting the tests, either via 3rd party labs or in house testing if they're in house labs are being run appropriately. This should be conducted on every single batch, prior to being released to retailers. There should be no need for this information to be provided to consumers, unless the company wants to provide the information in reality. If a company doesn't want to release it, but meets the testing limits, that's their own issue. But should there prove to be an issue, they should receive the same treatment a pharma company gets if they sell a drug that doesn't meet label claims.

    This should not have price implications on the final product because this is ALREADY SUPPOSED TO BE PERFORMED by companies if they're following the current laws on the books. If it does increase finished product prices (it will only increase pricing on proprietary blend bull**** formulas), then so be it. You want exactly whats on the label? Pay for it.
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  11. yesterday I had a doctors appointment, I didn't have time for breakfast so I stopped at a grocery store that is known for it's bakery and got 2 doughnuts...while there I knew they sold bang drinks but this time I saw the hyde drinks that I had never tried before so I bought one. drank it on the way to dr.


    when I got to dr they took my bp and it was 160/80.....it usually is around 125/80. even if I drink my usual 2 scoops of re1gn it hardly ever goes over 130/80.....the only thing I did differently was drink a can of hyde-should hyde be banned because something in it gave me high bp?
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    yesterday I had a doctors appointment, I didn't have time for breakfast so I stopped at a grocery store that is known for it's bakery and got 2 doughnuts...while there I knew they sold bang drinks but this time I saw the hyde drinks that I had never tried before so I bought one. drank it on the way to dr.


    when I got to dr they took my bp and it was 160/80.....it usually is around 125/80. even if I drink my usual 2 scoops of re1gn it hardly ever goes over 130/80.....the only thing I did differently was drink a can of hyde-should hyde be banned because something in it gave me high bp?
    No, you still missed the point.

    Iím talking yohimbine only products. A product that just contains yohimbine. Product A can be fine, while product B can be a different experience, even if the label says they contain the same amount of yohimbine.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Labels should be open-label, MANDATORY. Proprietary blends should be banned, not ingredients.

    If a company wants to sell a product, they should already be conducting purity/potency testing on both the raws and the finished products (according to the FDA). So they SHOULD already be paying for the testing on each ingredient.

    A dietary supplement company should be conducting the tests, either via 3rd party labs or in house testing if they're in house labs are being run appropriately. This should be conducted on every single batch, prior to being released to retailers. There should be no need for this information to be provided to consumers, unless the company wants to provide the information in reality. If a company doesn't want to release it, but meets the testing limits, that's their own issue. But should there prove to be an issue, they should receive the same treatment a pharma company gets if they sell a drug that doesn't meet label claims.

    This should not have price implications on the final product because this is ALREADY SUPPOSED TO BE PERFORMED by companies if they're following the current laws on the books. If it does increase finished product prices (it will only increase pricing on proprietary blend bull**** formulas), then so be it. You want exactly whats on the label? Pay for it.
    Other than the prop blend ban, is what youíre pitching different than what is already in place?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Other than the prop blend ban, is what you’re pitching different than what is already in place?
    mandatory every batch testing (right now you can get away with less if you have justification for the reduced testing), and actual enforcement of the laws on the books.


    there's no point to have a law if it isn't enforced.
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  15. I'm sure every raulwascine supplement is totally synthetic.

  16. I think the issue with the ban is the unexpected ripple effect it would cause.

    The ban you're proposing is on yohimbine, but it is because companies are not doing their due dilligence by knowing the ingredient amounts their own products contain before it is being sold. Essentially, it would open up other ingredients to a ban simply because a few companies aren't doing the testing that is required by the FDA.

    Let's say a researcher chose 10 products at random to test and found 8 of those 10 were mislabeling caffeine by 100mg, by the same logic applied here, the ban could be used against caffeine. Or any ingredient for that matter.

    You would then be effectively punishing the entire supplement company base rather than the few companies who fail to do their due dilligence and test things properly
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I think the issue with the ban is the unexpected ripple effect it would cause.

    The ban you're proposing is on yohimbine, but it is because companies are not doing their due dilligence by knowing the ingredient amounts their own products contain before it is being sold. Essentially, it would open up other ingredients to a ban simply because a few companies aren't doing the testing that is required by the FDA.

    Let's say a researcher chose 10 products at random to test and found 8 of those 10 were mislabeling caffeine by 100mg, by the same logic applied here, the ban could be used against caffeine. Or any ingredient for that matter.

    You would then be effectively punishing the entire supplement company base rather than the few companies who fail to do their due dilligence and test things properly
    lol...this is the same argument the NRA makes...just sayin
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    lol...this is the same argument the NRA makes...just sayin
    Id be for a yohimbe ban of people used it to intentionally inflict harm to or kill others though
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Id be for a yohimbe ban of people used it to intentionally inflict harm to or kill others though
    go to the anabolic section and see how successful banning of AAS's has been....i'm willing to bet that banning of guns would be equally successful
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    go to the anabolic section and see how successful banning of AAS's has been....i'm willing to bet that banning of guns would be equally successful
    Maybe, but you're confusing the fact that drugs to harm to the people using them, guns are made to do harm to others.

    Key and fundamental differences.

    But anyway that isnt what this discussion is about lol
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Maybe, but you're confusing the fact that drugs to harm to the people using them, guns are made to do harm to others.

    Key and fundamental differences
    the only fundamental thing you need to know is that if you are willing to break the law, guns would be as accessible as AAS's are...which means criminals are always going to have them, all you would be doing is preventing law abiding citizens the means to protect themselves from armed criminals.
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  22. So why don’t consumers stick to trusted brands and reputable companies? Mis-labeling in a lot of other products could also be disastrous.

    I feel like this would punish the companies that do it right and offer little benefit, as gray market brands would go right around the ban anyway.

    And how far should this be extrapolated? Sugar content is frequently mislabeled, should we ban food too?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Id be for a yohimbe ban of people used it to intentionally inflict harm to or kill others though
    Lol. Not going to get into gun politics, but I have heard of zero homicides that used yohimbine as the weapon.
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  24. Yohimbe and its Alkaloids Should be Banned: An Unpopular, Quick Think Piece


    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    No, you still missed the point.

    Iím talking yohimbine only products. A product that just contains yohimbine. Product A can be fine, while product B can be a different experience, even if the label says they contain the same amount of yohimbine.
    What percent of yohimbine products would you are are either in proprietary blends and/or donít list a standardization %? >90%? So that means that at least 90% of these products can either DRASTICALLY change the dose of the extract itself (so long as itís still in the same order and total dose of all ingredients in the blend), and/or drastically change the standardization of the extract from batch to batch WITHOUT mislabeling anything or violating any rules.

    This is applicable to EVERY ingredient though, and you can in theory have two bottles or the same product from two batches with the same label, and one could have twice as much caffeine, DMAA, etc. as the other. Pleas donít argue that doubling up on DMAA, caffeine, and DMHA all at once isnít going to be a bad experience.

    There you go, you can take the ďsameĒ product twice and have totally different experiences without any violations due to proprietary blends. Not just yohimbine...

    For now, only buy from GMP compliant companies, and preferably ones that can show you some evidence or testing/etc.
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    For now, only buy from GMP compliant companies, and preferably ones that can show you some evidence or testing/etc.
    That, or mass-market companies that don’t want to deal with Y overdose complaints affecting their reviews.

    Also, what about standardized Y HCl and A-Y stand-alone caps? They shouldn’t be subject to any different rules than caffeine pills.

    All thing considered, I do feel bad for the occasional consumer who buys an herbal yohimbe product knowing nothing about it. It can be an awful hell ride. But really, research and well-informed consumers, combined with accurate labeling are the best solution
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