Yohimbe and its Alkaloids Should be Banned: An Unpopular, Quick Think Piece

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    No disagreement that consumers should be educated on what they consume. With the resources available today (examine, google, etc), you can get educated fairly quickly.

    My concern is that you [potentially] can spend all the time you want researching and getting yourself properly educated, only to find you’re taking way more than you thought. For some, it could be enough to incite anxiety and/or panic
    yeah so that's a labeling or quality control issue....no need to just start banning things because theres a few side affects....if we banned anything with a side affect, the supplement world may not exist
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Let me start off this post with my personal thoughts. In a perfect world, what supplement companies place on a label is what is contained in the product, thus mitigating the need for any regulatory involvement. As seen below, this isn’t 100%. Therefore, I believe it is in consumers best interests to ban yohimbe and its alkaloids in dietary supplements. I believe people should be able to consume what they want, but only if they’re certain of what they’re consuming. This is fundamentally necessary. I write this piece knowing my opinion won’t be popular. I hope you continue reading so the community can have a healthy debate on the topic.


    What is Yohimbe?
    Yohimbe is an evergreen tree native to Western and Central Africa. Yohimbine, which is commonly used in dietary supplements, is found within the bark. Yohimbe has a host of other alkaloids, however yohimbine is what is most commonly consumed.


    Dosages used?
    Dosage varies, but for fat burning, 0.2mg/kg bodyweight is common with yohimbine. This amount is reduced quite a bit if taken with synergists. A good read here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...orner-4-a.html


    Benefits?
    Erectile Dysfunction: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9649257/

    Fat Loss: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17214405/


    Side effects?
    Anxiety, Cortisol, Blood Pressure, Heart Rate: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21710402

    [granted, this was done at 0.4mg/kg, but people have similar side effects at lower dosages as well]


    What’s the big concern?
    What I want to discuss today isn’t the concern of the side effects. These are easily found all over the internet. My concern is that we don’t know how much we’re consuming. Below we can see that labeling inaccuracies run rampant, and it truly matters for an ingredient that is stimulatory, potentially anxiogenic, and dosed in the small milligrams range.

    Cohen et all analyzed 49 brands of supplements labelled as containing yohimbe or yohimbine. They shopped at seven major retailers. 11/49 listed a specific quantity of yohimbine, while the rest didn’t specify the amount (assuming a prop blend). Of the 11 that listed an exact amount, actual content ranged from 23% to 147% of what the label claimed.

    The quantity of the most active alkaloid, yohimbine, per recommended serving ranged from none detected to 12.1 mg. Thirty‐nine percent of the supplements (19/49) did not contain rauwolscine and corynanthine suggesting that the yohimbine was either from highly processed plant extract or synthetic in origin. Only 11 supplement brands (22%, 11/49) listed a specific quantity of yohimbine on the label. Most of these were inaccurately labelled (actual content ranged from 23% to 147% of the content on the label). Eighteen percent (9/49) of the supplements' labels did not provide any information about yohimbine's adverse effects. Of the 49 yohimbine supplement brands sold at seven major retail chains in the USA, only 4.1% (2/49) provided consumers with both accurate information about the quantity of yohimbine as well as information about yohimbine's known adverse effects.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/....1002/dta.1849

    Another time label claim issues came up:

    "The chromatographic fingerprint analysis was applied to the analysis of 18 yohimbe commercial dietary supplement samples. Quantitation of yohimbine, the traditional method for analysis of yohimbe barks, were also performed to evaluate the results of the fingerprint analysis. Wide variability was observed in fingerprints and yohimbine content among yohimbe dietary supplement samples. For most of the dietary supplements, the yohimbine content was not consistent with the label claims."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...?dopt=Abstract

    Yohimbine supplements have been banned in other countries already. People react unpredictably, which is made worse by the fact that labels may be inaccurate.

    Thoughts?
    .4mgs/kg is 28mgs for a 70kg individual (154lbs), like with anything the amount makes the outcome. Take to much caffeine and get the same outcome here. Should caffeine be banned?

    You forgot to include the 4 or 5 studies done with OxyElite Pro (Yohimbe, DMAA and caffeine) and safety plus the other toxicity data that shows safety.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    yeah so that's a labeling or quality control issue....no need to just start banning things because theres a few side affects....if we banned anything with a side affect, the supplement world may not exist
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    What do you propose for better labeling and quality control?
    Same question for you then

  4. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Same question for you then
    buy from reputable brands that follow the rules and regulations of the industry...., ask for the testing before you purchase and ask about their quality programs...
  5. Yohimbe and its Alkaloids Should be Banned: An Unpopular, Quick Think Piece


    You say that yohimbine being banned in other counties means it should be banned here; isn’t agmatine banned in some countries?
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  6. The problem isn't so much the yohimbe as it is that the companies in question are simply taking the word if the manufacturer in meeting their label claims and not verifying it themselves before sale.

    The onus is on the company to test each batch of each product to ensure it meets their label claims.

    It is also their responsibility to label things correctly, which a lot of companies get incredibly wrong.

    The prerogative is then on the FDA to better enforce these standards in a much more productive and effecient manner conducive to the industry. I.e. not just leaving something to brew then raiding them in the hopes of bunkrupting them. In an ideal world, each batch of product sold would need to display a valid COA alongside it before it can be put on the market.

    The way it is now isn't really working. A company can get away with falsifying claims, adding in additional ingredients and mislabeling products for a long time before the FDA cracks down on them - especially smaller companies that fly under the radar.

    If you wanted more compliance, before you are allowed to sell supplements you should pass through stringent quality control measures.

    A lot of people i can imagine are against more thorough quality control measures that involve the FDA and often side with the smaller companies who literally do not care if you get screwed after trying their product they never tested for contamination
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by Old Witch View Post
    Looks like all of the products which didn’t meet label claims were using a standardized extract or bad labeling.

    The one with 23% of their label claim, was claiming 8mg yohimbe extract (bark) yohimbine 8%. So it’s not surprising that it has only 1.2 mg of yohimbe. It’s only 8mg of bark, which in turn is only 8% yohimbine per label claims. Technically, they had MORE than their label claim, since 8% of 8mg (their claimed amount) is less than 1mg.
    Cohen has done this sh*t with some of his other supplement 'studies' too, very misleading on his part. Dude has a hard on for the supp industry. You would think a Harvard professor would have better things to do

  8. The only version I could take was the og alphamine. Allot of people liked alphaburn but I felt like ****, hated Bloodshred raw and so on.

    I think it’s incredibly effective for fat loss, more so the ephedrine in my opinion. My love handles vanished very fast a long time ago when using it but the anxiety is awful, cold sweats when it’s boiling hot outside.

    With some people it can be down to dosage but for me even a 3mg alphaburn split in half was horrible but people react differently.

    I don’t think it should be banned but as always people abuse these things even if not meaning to, they see fat burner and pop them like candy then the fun begins.

    Forgot who posted but yeah agmatine is banned here in the UK. Still get it in some products though but they have been brought in from the us by the stores and some will state “US VERSION”

  9. Nothing should ever be banned.

    Manufacturers should be held to higher standards and punished more severely when breaking those standards.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by USPlabsRep View Post
    buy from reputable brands that follow the rules and regulations of the industry...., ask for the testing before you purchase and ask about their quality programs...
    Easier said then done. Informed consumers are probably in the minority. What about the random Joe walking into a brick and mortar?

    Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    You say that yohimbine being banned in other counties means it should be banned here; isn’t agmatine banned in some countries?
    I didn’t say that. I implied that this is a move other countries have made as historical precedent. Meaning this isn’t some idea out of left field.

    Yohimbe and agmatine aren’t very comparable. I understand what you’re getting at, but the side effects of consuming more agmatine then you thought aren’t quite as severe as Yohimbe or yohimbine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    T
    The way it is now isn't really working. A company can get away with falsifying claims, adding in additional ingredients and mislabeling products for a long time before the FDA cracks down on them - especially smaller companies that fly under the radar.

    If you wanted more compliance, before you are allowed to sell supplements you should pass through stringent quality control measures.

    A lot of people i can imagine are against more thorough quality control measures that involve the FDA and often side with the smaller companies who literally do not care if you get screwed after trying their product they never tested for contamination
    This is valid. And what happens when someone is “cracked down on”? Serious question. Is it just a letter saying, “stop doing it”?

    Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Nothing should ever be banned.

    Manufacturers should be held to higher standards and punished more severely when breaking those standards.
    Mike McCandles stated this time and time again. For years. Has much changed? And again, I’m not about amino spiking here. I’m talking about a stimulant that people react to unpredictably.

  11. ever see a commercial for a pharmaceutical drug....don't use this drug if you are allergic to it--how the hell you going to know you are allergic to it before you use it?


    obviously big pharma gets away with selling drugs that have very severe possible side affects, just look at the warning labels on many drugs...and Yohimbe should be banned because some people get cold sweats?
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    ever see a commercial for a pharmaceutical drug....don't use this drug if you are allergic to it--how the hell you going to know you are allergic to it before you use it?


    obviously big pharma gets away with selling drugs that have very severe possible side affects, just look at the warning labels on many drugs...and Yohimbe should be banned because some people get cold sweats?
    As you noted, with pharmaceuticals, you know the dosage and you know the potential side effects. As noted in the OP, 2/49 Yohimbe products follow this sort of labeling.

    Yeah it’s not just cold sweats. You know that.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    As you noted, with pharmaceuticals, you know the dosage and you know the potential side effects. As noted in the OP, 2/49 Yohimbe products follow this sort of labeling.

    Yeah it’s not just cold sweats. You know that.
    ok, you say I know it isn't just cold sweats, why is that?

    maybe because it is just as easy to find possible side effects of Yohimbe as it is pharmaceuticals....ok, this reminds me of the pregnant lady who drank a 5th of jack everyday during her pregnancy-and then tried to sue jack daniels when her baby was born with defects-true story, this is why there is now the warning label not to drink while pregnant on bottles of jack....


    moral of story...you can't protect a dumbass from hurting himself no matter how much stuff you ban-personal responsibility!!!
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    ok, you say I know it isn't just cold sweats, why is that?

    maybe because it is just as easy to find possible side effects of Yohimbe as it is pharmaceuticals....ok, this reminds me of the pregnant lady who drank a 5th of jack everyday during her pregnancy-and then tried to sue jack daniels when her baby was born with defects-true story, this is why there is now the warning label not to drink while pregnant on bottles of jack....


    moral of story...you can't protect a dumbass from hurting himself no matter how much stuff you ban-personal responsibility!!!
    Because you’ve been an active member of this forum for a while, and I thought I recalled you participating in threads where yohimbine side effects were discussed. If I’m wrong, I apologize. Nonetheless, sides can be anxiety/panic attacks, elevated heat rate, elevated blood pressure, etc.

    I understand the moral of your story. But you may be missing mine. People may accidentally consume too much because of label inaccuracy. Even if they’re not a “dumbass”.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Because you’ve been an active member of this forum for a while, and I thought I recalled you participating in threads where yohimbine side effects were discussed. If I’m wrong, I apologize. Nonetheless, sides can be anxiety/panic attacks, elevated heat rate, elevated blood pressure, etc.

    I understand the moral of your story. But you may be missing mine. People may accidentally consume too much because of label inaccuracy. Even if they’re not a “dumbass”.

    you are only a dumbass if you do it the 2nd time...do you know if you are sensitive to Yohimbe before you try it, probably not-but this is true for many things that aren't banned-peanuts/shelfish!!!
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Because you’ve been an active member of this forum for a while, and I thought I recalled you participating in threads where yohimbine side effects were discussed. If I’m wrong, I apologize. Nonetheless, sides can be anxiety/panic attacks, elevated heat rate, elevated blood pressure, etc.

    I understand the moral of your story. But you may be missing mine. People may accidentally consume too much because of label inaccuracy. Even if they’re not a “dumbass”.
    Why is a 30 ingredient proprietary blend with undisclosed doses of caffeine, DMAA, Eria Jarensis, DMHA, and sixteen other stimulants fine? You can EASILY take a serving of that and feel like absolute death, perhaps consuming twice as much caffeine and three times as much DMAA as you “expected.”

    Why is this specific to yohimbine, which actually has more safety data than most stimulants in preworkouts.

    Tell me about your terrible experience with yohimbine; I KNOW this is personal man.
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    you are only a dumbass if you do it the 2nd time...do you know if you are sensitive to Yohimbe before you try it, probably not-but this is true for many things that aren't banned-peanuts/shelfish!!!
    This isn’t the argument. Again, what if you buy a “5mg yohimbine product” one day and have no issues. Then the next time, you buy a similar “5mg yohimbine product”, but react completely differently due to their being more in the product then listed?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    This isn’t the argument. Again, what if you buy a “5mg yohimbine product” one day and have no issues. Then the next time, you buy a similar “5mg yohimbine product”, but react completely differently due to their being more in the product then listed?
    Because no one has even mislabeled any other ingredient or stimulant in a PWO? And no one has ever used a proprietary blend that, in theory, allows them to potentially DRASTICALLY alter the doses of the ingredients in said blend from batch to batch as long as the total dose and order of ingredients by dose remains the same?
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Same question for you then
    Like I stated...if I take something, dont like it, i dont buy it...i also dont buy from certain companies if i dont trust them

    It's also the beauty of communities like this because you can inform yourself by other people's experiences as well....its not my job to hold anyones hand but I can share my experiences

    As far as companies are concerned, youd hope they'd do the right thing but this isnt a perfect world as we know, I'm also not a huge fan of regulations in general, I feel like that could skyrocket prices on everything....which ultimately goes back to knowing quality vs junk...its your responsibility as a consumer
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    Because no one has even mislabeled any other ingredient or stimulant in a PWO? And no one has ever used a proprietary blend that, in theory, allows them to potentially DRASTICALLY alter the doses of the ingredients in said blend from batch to batch as long as the total dose and order of ingredients by dose remains the same?
    It would be nice to have another study that looks other products/ingredients. I believe the effects of mislabeling yohimbine are more detrimental than other commonly found pre workout ingredients
  21. Yohimbe and its Alkaloids Should be Banned: An Unpopular, Quick Think Piece


    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    It would be nice to have another study that looks other products/ingredients. I believe the effects of mislabeling yohimbine are more detrimental than other commonly found pre workout ingredients
    Based on what? Doubling up on DMAA, DMHA, and caffeine all at once isn’t as bad as doubling up on yohimbine? As I said, yohimbine has mor safety data than most stimulants. Yeah, you may feel like garbage for a few hours, but you’re unlikely to have serious adverse effects that persist or have long term consequences.

    That of course does not excuse companies mislabeling anything, but this is a personal vendetta at this point man. You haven’t answered ANY of my questions, or even addressed them. You say “well I think it’s worse.” That’s not an actual argument man. Ask 10 people; you’ll get 7 different “worst ingredients” to double dose.
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    Why is a 30 ingredient proprietary blend with undisclosed doses of caffeine, DMAA, Eria Jarensis, DMHA, and sixteen other stimulants fine? You can EASILY take a serving of that and feel like absolute death, perhaps consuming twice as much caffeine and three times as much DMAA as you “expected.”

    Why is this specific to yohimbine, which actually has more safety data than most stimulants in preworkouts.

    Tell me about your terrible experience with yohimbine; I KNOW this is personal man.
    Sorry I skipped over this post. I didn’t see it until this morning. No, this is not a personal vendetta lol. I understand why someone may think this, but no.

    I think all designer stims are trash. Yohimbine specifically has data showing how rampant the mislabeling is.

    Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    Based on what? Doubling up on DMAA, DMHA, and caffeine all at once isn’t as bad as doubling up on yohimbine? As I said, yohimbine has mor safety data than most stimulants. Yeah, you may feel like garbage for a few hours, but you’re unlikely to have serious adverse effects that persist or have long term consequences.

    That of course does not excuse companies mislabeling anything, but this is a personal vendetta at this point man. You haven’t answered ANY of my questions, or even addressed them. You say “well I think it’s worse.” That’s not an actual argument man. Ask 10 people; you’ll get 7 different “worst ingredients” to double dose.
    Nope. Again, not a personal vendetta. I don’t like any of these designer stims, but I don’t have reason to believe they’re being mislabeled. Like I said, people should be able to take what they want. But it’s important that people know exactly what they’re taking. That isn’t the case with yohimbine.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    Sorry I skipped over this post. I didn’t see it until this morning. No, this is not a personal vendetta lol. I understand why someone may think this, but no.

    I think all designer stims are trash. Yohimbine specifically has data showing how rampant the mislabeling is.


    Nope. Again, not a personal vendetta. I don’t like any of these designer stims, but I don’t have reason to believe they’re being mislabeled. Like I said, people should be able to take what they want. But it’s important that people know exactly what they’re taking. That isn’t the case with yohimbine.
    So you want better labeling, not it banned. Tell me why you think a company mislabeling yohimbine will be perfect in labeling every other stimulant in all of their products correctly? You also still haven’t explained why a crapshoot on yohimbine content makes it ban-worthy, but a proprietary blend with undisclosed doses of a myriad of exotic stimulants isn’t a crapshoot, and isn’t ban-worthy. You said you don’t like exotic stims, but do you also think they should be banned?
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    So you want better labeling, not it banned. Tell me why you think a company mislabeling yohimbine will be perfect in labeling every other stimulant in all of their products correctly? You also still haven’t explained why a crapshoot on yohimbine content makes it ban-worthy, but a proprietary blend with undisclosed doses of a myriad of exotic stimulants isn’t a crapshoot, and isn’t ban-worthy. You said you don’t like exotic stims, but do you also think they should be banned?
    We all want better labeling. We’ve been saying this for years. Just saying, “we need stricter enforcement of current legislation not more regulation” means nothing. Propose a realistic, better idea. Or, do you just want the status quo? You’re entitled to whatever opinion you have. If you think better labeling is the answer, then elaborate on this. Tell me how you can enforce this.

    A company that mislabels yohimbine may mislabel other items. I’m not naive. Show me the facts of where this is happening.

    I don’t like exotic stims, but I don’t think they should be banned.
  25. Yohimbe and its Alkaloids Should be Banned: An Unpopular, Quick Think Piece


    Quote Originally Posted by aaronuconn View Post
    We all want better labeling. We’ve been saying this for years. Just saying, “we need stricter enforcement of current legislation not more regulation” means nothing. Propose a realistic, better idea. Or, do you just want the status quo? You’re entitled to whatever opinion you have. If you think better labeling is the answer, then elaborate on this. Tell me how you can enforce this.

    A company that mislabels yohimbine may mislabel other items. I’m not naive. Show me the facts of where this is happening.

    I don’t like exotic stims, but I don’t think they should be banned.
    Plenty of people have proposed solutions ITT. How does saying we should enforce our regulations better mean nothing? I’d wager the companies with yohimbine products that didn’t meet label claims weren’t in full GMP compliance. How about making sure companies comply with this? Regular checks. Etc. Proof of testing ingredient sources; probably a ton of companies just buy garbage raws and have no idea what’s in them. Also, until then, how about don’t buy from random brands that don’t claim to be GMP compliant. Also, don’t buy supplements from your neighborhood pharmacy or grocery store; 4/6 of the stores supplements in this study were purchased from were pharmacies or grocery stores, so not exactly ideal brands. Also, you read literally one study and are calling for a complete ban. That’s silly man. How about asking for more research to confirm it? You don’t like yohimbine, we get it...
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