Vector or Kings Slayer?

justhere4comm

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Vector


Screen Shot 2018-05-18 at 12.46.10 AM.png


Reviews on SSS
Strong Supplement Shop (Read the reviews)
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Scan the last 30-40 pages maybe
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/black-lion-research/299585-vector-pre-release-127.html
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Mini-Log
VECTOR IS HERE! Mini Log
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Vector Log (Female)
VECTOR LOG (Female)



Get it at Black Lion Research
(If you are on mobile, you cannot see my signature, which is to say, I am a representative of Black Lion Research and in an effort of both transparency, and to relate my price reduction code: MARK15 for 15% off all products on BLR's web site.)




VECTOR INGREDIENTS

VECTOR ingredient #3 Rehmannaie Radix extract
March 3, 2018

VECTOR ingredient 3 DATA
Rehmannaie radix. (RR)
RR is the third and final ingredient in VECTOR the next generation of natural ANABOLICs. RR contains within some of the most interesting ANABOLIC substances Ive seen and has a host of effects and properties that are of interest to us as athletes. RR has been used for aeons in ancient medicine but recently it has been demonstrated to have more than just health benefits. RR is an exceptional for performance enhancement, muscle mass building, strength and fat loss. Lets explore why.

CATALPOL
Catalpol is approx 11% of the dry weight of the Rehemannaie plant. In a strong extract like the one used in VECTOR percentages can be much higher. Think of Catalpol as.....natural Doping. I see this could be hard to wrap your head around so let me explain-
*Here is a quote from a study regarding the use of genes for doping.

"the advance of gene therapy has opened the door to the possibility of using genetic manipulation (GM) to enhance athletic performance. In such 'gene doping', exogenous genetic sequences are inserted into a specific tissue, altering cellular gene activity or leading to the expression of a protein product. The exogenous genes most likely to be utilized for gene doping include erythropoietin (EPO), vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), insulin-like growth factor type 1 (IGF-1), myostatin antagonists, and endorphin. However, many other genes could also be used, such as those involved in glucose metabolic pathways."

So they are saying in essence that by targeting these specific factors an athlete could augment themselves and become sort of a super human. Interestingly Catalpol targets most of these and more. EPO, VEGF, IGF1, Beta endorphins. Augmenting these can lead to MAJOR increases in muscle mass, athletic performance and fat loss.

Catalpol increases EPO
EPO has been used by athletes (illegally in most cases) to increase performance for decades. Well known for its use in cycling EPO when injected or when it is increased through other means leads to huge increases in overall performance. EPO increases red blood cells which in turn carries more oxygen to muscles. VO2Max is increased, overall power output is increased, time to exhaustion is increased. These boosts give the athlete a huge advantage in competition but also for those who are not competitors it allows for the same improvements making your everyday Clark Kent into more of a Superman. When combined with RRs second chemical constieunt, a strong vasodilator we have GREATLY improved performance as the oxygen rich overabundance of red blood cells are pumped through wide open blood vessels.

VEGF
Vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) is a major regulator of blood vessel formation during development and in the adult organism. Recent evidence indicates that this factor also plays an important role in sustaining the proliferation and differentiation of different cell types, including progenitor cells of different tissues, including skeletal muscle, bone marrow, bone, and the central nervous system. VEGF promotes the growth of myogenic fibers and protects the myogenic cells from apoptosis in vitro and prompt a therapeutic use for VEGF gene transfer in a variety of muscular disorders. VEGF also increases angiogenisis and blood flow to muscles.

IGF-1
Catalpol increases IGF1 which is a well known positive regulator of skeletal muscle. Vector is a fantastic muscle building agent but we all know that in order to grow we need to eat caloric surplus.
Unfortunately as we eat more, particularly carbs, blood sugar rises and IGF1 is suppressed while IGF1 sensitivity is increased.
Catalpol prevents this drop in IGF1 leading to higher IGF1 levels during a period where IGF1 sensitivity is at its highest. This contributes to Vectors muscle growth potential.

B-Endorphin
Catalpol increases Beta endorphin release. B-EP are known for causing the often referred to "runners high" and is part of what makes us feel great after exercise. B-EP have also been shown to decrease muscle fatigue and increase glucose uptake in muscles. B-EP are in a large part what gives us the Mind/muscle connection when training. B-EP improves neuromuscular function, increases the amplitude of contractions and decreases the time to peak muscle contraction in response to nerve stimulation. B-EP can increase initial, maximum and mean muscle tension meaning strength potential.

ATP
Catalpol effectively increases mitochondrial ATP production.

Catalpol is also remarkably hypoglycemic, reduces total serum cholesterol and triglycerides. Making it a powerhouse within RR and lending itself nicely to the overall structure and potential of VECTOR.

LOGANIN
- Is a well known iridoid glycoside with many sources but Loganin is present in high quantities in Rehemannaie.
Loganin is a fantastic ANABOLIC agent in its own right. Loganin is being studied currently as a treatment for skeletal muscle atrophy. In addition Loganin seems to possess anti inflammatory, antioxidant, glucose lowering and muscle protective effects. Loganin upregulates the Atk/mTOR pathway and increases IGF1 leading to increased muscle tissue.
Loganin has also been shown to increase skeletal muscle strength in animal studies and inhibits Atrogin-1 which prevents skeletal muscle atrophy. Further ANABOLIC potential lies in its suppression of SMAD2/3 and increased expression of SMAD7. In animals studies Loganin increased muscle mass, overall bodyweight, strength and protein synthesis making it a powerhouse ANABOLIC.

BETAINE
Betain is a well known constituent of Beet roots. Betain has been studied and shown to increase performance as well as skeletal muscle growth making it a fantastic component of RR and ultimately VECTOR. Betain has been found to increase IGF1 expression, as well as MyHC synthesis which can both lead to increases in muscle. In addition it is a great vasodilator and improves blood flow to muscles. This vasodilation combined with Catalpols increase in RBC from EPO makes this stuff a wicked performance enhancing ingredient.


RR is

  • Antioxidant
  • Improves cognitive function
  • Has been shown to increase testosterone
  • Increase muscle mass
  • Reduce blood sugar/ antidiabetic
  • Helps with gastrointestinal disorders
  • Is used as a feed for animals as it increases weight and muscle mass.
  • Increases Beta endorphins
  • Mild opioid activity/ pain killing with out the negatives of NSAIDS
  • Increases GLUT4
  • Improves mitochondrial function
  • Increases IGF-1
  • Increases EPO/Red blood cells
  • Increases SMAD7 expression
  • Reduces SMAD2/3 expression
  • Increases performance
  • Increases strength
  • Prevents muscle atrophy
  • Increases ATP production
  • Vasodilation

VECTOR ingredient #2 Data= KOREAN MISTLETOE
February 24, 2018

Korean mistletoe (Viscum album coloratum) 1000mg @ 100:1 extract.
(KME)is a semi-parasitic plant that grows on various trees and has a diverse range of effects on biological functions. KME has been shown to have anti-tumor, immunostimulatory, anti-diabetic, and anti-obesity properties. Of interest to us as athletes KME has been reported to increase strength, muscle mass and improve overall exercise capacity. Of course we love to hear this but these days we want to know how and why so lets explore how KME works.

MUSCLE MASS
One of the primary goals of the bodybuilder is muscle mass and we know of many things that lead to increased skeletal muscle. ANABOLIC androgenic steroids are the first things most people think of and for good reason. ANABOLIC steroids are wonderfully effective and can help you reach levels of muscularity that are just not possible without them. These gains, however, are not without their costs. ANABOLIC steroids lead to a host of disease states and health issues along with their status as illegal drugs. This makes them less than ideal for most people. Of course there are designer steroids and prohormones and SARMS but these too have their negatives.

*There has to be a solution
Its been largely demonstrated that nature is a beast of a pharmaceutical lab. Its hard to deny nature as we see that many of the drugs we use come from plants, including most narcotics, chemo meds, nootropics etc. Why then are there not fantastic ANABOLIC agents in nature? There are.
KME has been in use as a health agent for ages. Scientists speculated that KME may be ANABOLIC in vivo and a number of clinical studies were conducted to validate this hypothesis. KME has been proven to not only prevent muscle atrophy but also to promote skeletal muscle hypertrophy. This is important because it means that KME both increases muscle growth and prevents muscle which makes it an ultra strong muscle mass building ingredient. Mice Fed KME for 4 weeks showed increases in muscle mass and grip strength. The research indicated multiple factors leading to this result not least of which is the well known AKT/mTOR pathway. Rats fed KME showed increased whole body weight, larger quadriceps and greatly increased strength. It was therefore determined that KME is ANABOLIC as it directly leads to larger stronger muscles. In addition to greater muscle fiber area and diameter KME fed mice showed incredible increases in endurance and exercise capacity making KME an ideal candidate for use in physique, strength and endurance athletes.

ENDURANCE/EXERCISE
KME has been shown to decrease fatigue and increase endurance. Increased mitochondrial oxygen consumption and the increased expression of PPARy lead to increases of up to 212% in forced swim tests. KME reduces plasma ammonia levels, improves fuel utilization and enhances exercise performance. In one study researchers adminstered endurance capacity tests. KME fed animals ran TWICE AS FAR as their high fat diet only counterparts which is frankly amazing 100% increases in endurance is like no other natural ANABOLIC currently available.

FAT LOSS
A big part of what makes ANABOLIC steroids appealing is the ability to build muscle while losing fat. This is the Holy Grail of bodybuilding. Fat loss while building muscle.

In a 15 week experiment KME was fed to animals along with a high fat diet. Around week 9 it became evident that the KME fed animals were gaining less weight with no differences in the amount of food taken in. At the end of the experiment the KME fed animals had 20% less bodyfat than their high fat diet only animals and when tested it was determined that the loss was adipose tissue. KME increases thermogenesis and nearly triples the amount of UCP1 (uncoupling protein 1), a principal thermogenic mitochondrial molecule related to energy dissipating in subcutaneous fat. To demonstrate the inhibitory mechanism of KME on fat cells adipogenic factors were studied.

They measured the expression levels of the transcription factors PPAR, C/EBP-a, and SREBP-1c in 3T3-L1 cells treated with KME. The results show that PPAR-, C/EBP-a, and SREBP-1c mRNA levels were decreased by 64%, 60%, and 32%, respectively. Finally they also measured the mRNA expression levels of adipogenic enzymes, such as FAS, ACS, and ACC. These adipogenic enzymes were reduced by 69%, 55%, and 22%. Overall the research indicated that adipogenic factors were decreased by 89% compared to that of untreated cells giving KME an unprecidented level of fat loss power for something that is also incredibly ANABOLIC.

EFFECTS ON HORMONES
KME has been shown to have a significant impact on the HPTA. KME leads to increased Leutinizing hormone, increased Testosterone and decreased prolactin.

This in turn makes VECTOR great for all purposes. Good alone, stacked, even during PCT.

Just a few of KME's MOAs=

AKT/mTOR
In adult skeletal muscle the akt/mTOR signaling pathway is currently recognized as the major pathway regulating protein synthesis.
VECTOR activates this pathway and in turn increases protein synthesis and muscle mass.

LH
increased leutinizing hormone leads to a significant increase in testosterone levels.

Atrogin 1
Atrogin-1 is induced in response to myostatin/TGF-b signalling leading to muscle atrophy. Atrogin-1 and MuRF-1 have been identified as important enzymes in ubiquitin-mediated proteolysis and muscle atrophy, and modulating their expression via physical activity or targeting the upstream cytokines and growth factors that regulate their expression has the potential to prevent or reverse muscle atrophy. A reduction in Atrogin 1 prevents loss of muscle. This then makes VECTOR great at helping you hold onto muscle while dieting as its ANABOLIC, anti catabolic and increases fat burning.

SMAD2/3
Both myostatin and TGF-ß are held in an inactive form in the muscle extracellular matrix, and when activated, bind to their receptors and activate Smad2/3. Generally speaking we want to see SMAD 2 and 3 drop while seeing an increase in SMAD 7. This is what we see with KME/VECTOR.



VECTOR ingredient #1 data-ERIOBOTRYA J

February 6, 2018

ERIOBOTRYA JAPONICA -1000mg/100:1 extract.
Eriobotrya Japonica (EJ) or Loquat is a fruiting plant commonly used for food, added to alcholic beverages and sometimes used for health and longevity. EJ contains a host of interesting chemicals with a number of effects that are beneficial to those looking to build muscle, burn fat or increase athletic performance. Loquat for bodybuilders? On the surface EJ doesnt seem to be super exciting but nothing could be further from the truth. There have been a number of studies indicating that the proper extract at a high enough dose can lead to gains in muscle mass, strength and fat loss. Studies indicate EJ Increases the expression of myogenic genes MyoD, Myogenin and MyHC. This increased expression corresponds with an increase in the activity of Creatine Kinase a myogenic differentiation marker. Finally EJ activates the AKT/mTOR pathway and subsequently promotes muscle protein synthesis and a gain in lean muscle mass. In studies EJ was shown to prevent muscle atrophy and increase muscle hypertrophy so its great if your cutting and want to preserve muscle and its great if you want to bulk.


AKT/Mtor
Akt is known as effector of insulin/IGF-1 signalling and it can induce muscle hypertrophy through a pathway involving rapamycin-sensitive mTOR.
mTOR regulates PGC-1a expression, which is a key regulator of mitochondria biogenesis, and the expression of PGC-1a has been implicated in the control of skeletal muscle mass. The activation of the Akt/mTOR pathway and its downstream targets, p70S6K and PHAS-1/4E-BP1, is requisitely involved in regulating skeletal muscle fiber size. Acute AKT activation also leads to a decrease in adipose tissue (fat loss)

QUOTE
"The pathways that are sufficient to induce hypertrophy in skeletal muscle have been the subject of some controversy. We describe here the use of a novel method to produce a transgenic mouse in which a constitutively active form of Akt can be inducibly expressed in adult skeletal muscle and thereby demonstrate that acute activation of Akt is sufficient to induce rapid and significant skeletal muscle hypertrophy in vivo, accompanied by activation of the downstream Akt/p70S6 kinase protein synthesis pathway. Upon induction of Akt in skeletal muscle, there was also a significant decrease in adipose tissue. These findings suggest that pharmacologic approaches directed toward activating Akt will be useful in inducing skeletal muscle hypertrophy and that an increase in lean muscle mass is sufficient to decrease fat storage."

MyHC
*Myosin* heavy-chain* synthesis* rate* is correlated* with* measures* of* muscle* strength, circulating* insulin-like* growth* factor* 1** and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate in men and women and free testosterone levels in men.

MyoD
Both MyoD and myogenin genes are necessary in the regenerative process for the proliferation of satellite cells (myoblasts) and for the development of early regenerating fibers (myotubes). The expression of Myod is sufficient to convert a fibroblast to a skeletal muscle cell,

Lower doses or the incorrect extraction process has been shown to be ineffective so the extraction process is very important with EJ. So lets dig into whats inside the plant itself.

Just a short list of the chemical constituents of EJ

  • Epicatechin
  • Ursolic acid
  • Chlorogenic acid
  • Corosolic acid
  • Oleanolic acid
  • Caffeic acid
  • Procyanidin B2
  • Protocatechuic acid
  • Ferulic acid
  • Tormentic acid
  • Naringenin
  • Ellagic acid
  • EGCG
  • Quercetin
This is a pretty impressive list of actives. Lets take a look at what some of these do.

Epicatechin
EJ doesnt have as much epicatechin as something like cocoa or green tea but there is still a decent amount. Its estimated that there is about 150mg per 100g in cocoa and there is about 60mg in EJ so a little less than half. None the less there is enough that epicatechin will be active especially with Narinigenin, EGCG and quercetin in the mix as these all increase the absorption of epicatechin. Lets think of epicatechin as sort of a bonus.

Ursolic acid
There is a decent dose in here at upwards of 150mg estimated per daily dose of our EJ extract but Ursolic acid is also a major constituent of another of Vectors ingredents giving us approx 300mg + of Ursolic acid per dose. Ursolic acid orally has been show in studies to increase muscle mass, Increase strength, Increase brown fat, Increase glucose utilization and increase exercise capacity. Its been stated that UA is not viable orally but I think I disagree and it seems as though studies also indicate that it is orally active although it has a very poor absorption rate. High doses are required and studies indicate 300+ should be enough orally to produce the desired results.

Corosolic acid
Corosolic acid is a GDA generally extracted from Banaba (lagerstroemia speciosa) but a significant amount is present in Eribotrya J. Corosolic acid works orally at relatively low doses and has some interesting effects. Even doses of 10mg are viable to display its impressive effects. Most people have heard of Corosolic acid for its glucose effects as it is a major GDA. Corosolic acid can help to keep glucose down with multiple mechanisms of action. Glut4 translocation, reduced insulin resistance as well as all kinds of enzymatic suppression and or expression.

-Corosolic acid has been shown to reduce cholesterol levels and enhance lipid metabolism.
-Corosolic acid is also a great fat burner not only through antidiabetic effects but also by retarding absorption of fatty acids.
-Corosolic acid is a potent and selective inhibitor of the enzyme (11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1) that converts inactive cortisone to active cortisol. Therefore, corosolic acid may prevent excessive cortisol production.

Overall Corosolic acid is one of Vectors great components. Increased Glucose uptake into muscles, decreased blood sugar, increased insulin sensitivity, increased fat utilization and decreased fat diposition plus decreased cortisol make Corosolic a powerhouse.

Oleanolic acid
Oleanolic acid (OA) is a constituent of Olea Europea, Viscum Album and Eriobotrya japonica as well as others.
Its long been used in Chinese medicine for treatment of liver disorders and other ailments. OA increases glucose utilization, is a solid vasodilator and increases expression of the AKT pathway.

Protocatechuic acid
  • Insulin like activity by activating PPAPy.
  • Decreases ROS
  • Antiageing
  • Anti inflammatory
  • Antiseptic
  • analgesic
  • GLUT4 upregulation
  • Antioxidant
  • Protects the testes from damage and stress
  • Cardio protective
Caffeic acid
  • Increased exercise capacity
  • Reduced Blood Lactate
  • Increased fat loss
  • Endurance
Ferulic acid, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxycinnamic acid, is one of the most ubiquitous phenolic acids, found in the
bran of grasses such as wheat, rice, and oats. It belongs to the family of plant hydroxycinnamic acids, which
include caffeic acid, sinapic acid, and p-coumaric acid.* Recent studies have provided evidence that ferulic acid reduces the risk of disease, including Alzheimer’s disease, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and colon cancer. Currently, ferulic acid is used to enhance athletic
performance, both in humans and racehorses. Supplementation by it has been found to increase muscle strength in weight lifters.

In one animal study a single acute administration of Ferulic acid increased swimming time by 170%.
Ferulic acid prevented the decrease in catalase, superoxide dismutase and protected against the depletion* of* GST* activity* induced* by* exhaustive exercise.

Exercise can be associated with oxidative stress. Thus exercise can act as a powerful source of Reactive Oxygen Species, depending on duration and intensity. During exhaustive exercise, fat is typically used* as* the* primary* energy* source,* thus* sparing glycogen stores, which in turn retards fatigue. However, during strenuous exercise substantial production of ROS occurs via beta oxidation during the utilization of fat.
In addition, a dramatic increase in oxygen consumption in the body creates an imbalance between ROS and the antioxidant defense system resulting in fatigue.

Acute adminstration of Ferulic acid prevents fatigue, increases endurance and protects the body during exhaustive exercise.

Chlorogenic acid

CA often reffered to as green coffee extract is widely known for its antiobesity effects via PPARa agonism and by preventing proliferation of new fat cells. CA can increase muscular glucose uptake both by stimulating Non insulin dependent AMPK as well as stimulating pAKt. Great for keeping bodyfat off while promoting muscle growth.


REFERENCES CAN BE FOUND HERE
(Lots of pretty graphs and linked studies)



Any further questions? Feel free to ask, but you'd do better to see for yourself how great it is.
 
Mowglisml

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That vector pre-release link sends me to heart monitor thread. Haha
 
GrizzleB

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I'd say vector only because I've used and many others have with positive results. I'll be following logs of kingslayer to see what kinda results people get from it.

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jameschoi

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Kingslayer is cheaper right now and you get 1gm more of mistletoejam per serving
 

southpaw23

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I'm almost tempted to give Kingslayer a shot, but I've yet to use a natty that actually does anything. I mean not even one that worked beyond a slight libido boost. Natties are good for two things, wasting money and coasters. Tempt me with information!
 
VO2Maxima

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Alright, so I can't speak much about Vector, but I can speak to the efficacy of K1ngslayer, as I truly believe that our R&D team ( xtyler and NoAddedHmones) did an amazing job with this one.

First, going to lay out the overview on K1ngslayer itself, as well as each ingredient and why we have included them. This is also available on our Instagram page:

Key Benefits of K1NGSLAYER
*Stimulates key anabolic pathways linked to muscle building
*Potently blocks pathways related to muscle breakdown
*Eat more, grow more, bloat less
*Significantly improved nutrient digestion, uptake and utilization

Korean Mistletoe Extract
*Stimulates myogenesis (anabolic machinery) for increased muscle hypertrophy
*Simultaneously prevents muscle breakdown
*Increases mitochondrial density and function, boosting endurance
*Increases fat loss

Hesperidin Methyl Chalcone
*Increases Growth Hormone and IGF-1 levels
*Amplifies Ghrelin receptor signaling
*Promotes muscle tissue formation and recovery
*Improved blood flow for bigger pumps

Gentiana Lutea
*Stimulates appetite via ghrelin secretion
*Improved digestion and nutrient uptake and utilization
*Prevents bloating

Atractylodis Lanceae
*Standardized to 20% Atractylodin
*Stimulates appetite and Growth Hormone levels via Ghrelin secretion
*Potentiates Ghrelin receptor signalling
*Boosts IGF-1 expression

Now, I know there's some question as to what the difference between the KME that we've used and the KME that BLR has used. So here's the deal, I don't know what BLR uses, maybe one of their reps can elaborate. I DO, however, know what we use, which is the exact plant material and uses the same extraction process used in the studies on KME that show the above benefits. This is important because we want to assure that you're getting the right actives. You can have an extract (including an extract that uses a high ratio of raws to finished product) that is lacking the actives in question (e.g. compare a 100:1 longjack that is low quality and lacking in glycosaponins and eurypeptides compared to a controlled extract like LJ100). BLR may be using a great extract, I really don't know, so this isn't to badmouth them, and as I said, maybe one of their reps can give some more information, but in the meantime, I am confident in the quality of the KME extract that we are using.

Any further questions, feel free to ask.
 
aaronuconn

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Well said by VO2.

I’m partial to K1ngslayer. I think those eating in a surplus will benefit greatly from the increased nutrient uptake (and reduction in bloating). Lot of talk about OL’s KMS extract (and rightfully so), but it’s just part of an excellent profile
 

southpaw23

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Some people are comparing vector to Andros. I put on a lot of mass with Andro cycles. Is Korean mistletoe as potent as Andros? Some people claiming 10-12lbs growth, which I'm highly skeptical.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using AnabolicMinds mobile app
 
aaronuconn

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Some people are comparing vector to Andros. I put on a lot of mass with Andro cycles. Is Korean mistletoe as potent as Andros? Some people claiming 10-12lbs growth, which I'm highly skeptical.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using AnabolicMinds mobile app
No, KMS (or any natural supplement) isn’t as potent as a PH/Steroid
 
justhere4comm

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One quick point: It's (Korean Mistletoe Extract) actually abbreviated KME* not KMS.
 
VO2Maxima

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I know this. I see people claiming it's on par with Andros. The best natty I've ever used and there hardly any worth a dime, allowed for 4lbs at best.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using AnabolicMinds mobile app
If you're used to AAS and PH, then most natural anabolics will be somewhat underwhelming compared to their hormonal counterparts. That said, they do have utility. For example, utilizing a natural anabolic during PCT can help to better maintain the strength and muscle gained on-cycle. Also, K1NGSLAYER would have utility as an appetite booster and digestive aid while on-cycle...as I'm sure you know, sometimes eating enough when trying to gain weight while on can be a challenge in and of itself.

One quick point: It's actually abbreviated KME* not KMS.
My bad, was doing a few things at once. KMS = Kabuki Movement System which is another tab I have open at the moment lol.
 
justhere4comm

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If you're used to AAS and PH, then most natural anabolics will be somewhat underwhelming compared to their hormonal counterparts. That said, they do have utility. For example, utilizing a natural anabolic during PCT can help to better maintain the strength and muscle gained on-cycle. Also, K1NGSLAYER would have utility as an appetite booster and digestive aid while on-cycle...as I'm sure you know, sometimes eating enough when trying to gain weight while on can be a challenge in and of itself.


My bad, was doing a few things at once. KMS = Kabuki Movement System which is another tab I have open at the moment lol.
OMG. You're so nice, lol. I didn't even see that... now I'm interested in something called Kabuki Movement System. (Googling...) Ok, I'm going to be lost for a few hours. Ha.
 
VO2Maxima

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I agree as I use them in PCT, but as a standalone not worth it in my opinion.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using AnabolicMinds mobile app
For natties (both tested athletes and those who choose to be natty for personal reasons), they are going to be more noticeable. It's tough when you've already experienced hormonals as natural supplements aren't really going to compare. That said, most people aren't blasting and cruising hormonals year round (and even when blasting and cruising, you are cruising at some point), so it can be useful to have something natural to help you maintain as much as possible.

OMG. You're so nice, lol. I didn't even see that... now I'm interested in something called Kabuki Movement System. (Googling...)
Ok, I'm going to be lost for a few hours. Ha.
Yeah Duffin has some good information out. Some of it is behind a paywall, but start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tAPwLavb5A&list=PLb-4Y0uOHcQfDu9K5tkppM0iCqpTieOFy
 
toddmuelheim

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Look at you two, maybe there is a chance for this planet after all. Kind of reminds me of the ending to Rocky 4
 
Aleksandar37

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Been looking at both of these, so in for info
 
compan

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I've read a lot about these products and KME in general recently and I am intrigued. Certainly a healthy skepticism though because I can't remember the last natty anabolic I've used that was worth a damn. Would certainly love for this to be one of them and something legit to use. Will be keeping my eyes on some logs.
 
JAS51

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OMG. You're so nice, lol. I didn't even see that... now I'm interested in something called Kabuki Movement System. (Googling...) Ok, I'm going to be lost for a few hours. Ha.
For natties (both tested athletes and those who choose to be natty for personal reasons), they are going to be more noticeable. It's tough when you've already experienced hormonals as natural supplements aren't really going to compare. That said, most people aren't blasting and cruising hormonals year round (and even when blasting and cruising, you are cruising at some point), so it can be useful to have something natural to help you maintain as much as possible.


Yeah Duffin has some good information out. Some of it is behind a paywall, but start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tAPwLavb5A&list=PLb-4Y0uOHcQfDu9K5tkppM0iCqpTieOFy
Great info.
 
brundel

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Some people are comparing vector to Andros. I put on a lot of mass with Andro cycles. Is Korean mistletoe as potent as Andros? Some people claiming 10-12lbs growth, which I'm highly skeptical.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using AnabolicMinds mobile app
You have to remember that Vector isnt just Korean mistletoe.
I love korean mistletoe but in testing the Eriobotrya Japonica was more effective on all fronts. KME was fantastic but Erobotrya for sure was better, and, there is Rehmannaie which has exceptional anabolic effects equal easily to Korean mistletoe.
Vector isnt Korean mistletoe. It has Korean mistletoe in it but it has 2 other ingredients that are as good or better.
The combination is what makes it such a powerhouse. Not the single ingredient.

I know of dozens of guys who have reached 10lbs with Vector. There are over 100 reports in our vector thread
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/black-lion-research/299585-vector-pre-release-127.html#post6025729

Without question Vector has more positive reports and reviews.
I have never seen a product with more positive feedback.

Ive been running it for months now. Its surprising how well it works.
 
Bagofturdwind

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I think it’s fair to say anecdotal feedback thus far has been favorable for Vector giving it the early edge, however if you’re looking at it from a science-based perspective, the edge would be given to K1ngs Slayer being that they fully disclose their Korean mistletoe extraction process (and also use the one in the studies) which appears to be the crown jewel here.
 

ttortman78

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Just finishing vector now and it has been a tremendous run. Will be trying king slayer next. I love BLR and olympus labs. Best two companies on this board. Can't go wrong with either.
 
xtyler

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Well said by VO2.

I’m partial to K1ngslayer. I think those eating in a surplus will benefit greatly from the increased nutrient uptake (and reduction in bloating). Lot of talk about OL’s KMS extract (and rightfully so), but it’s just part of an excellent profile
Thank you kind sir.
You're 100% correct: our KME extract is a jewel, but certainly not the only ingredient in King Slayer doing the job. It works brilliantly in tandem with the rest of the formulation.
 

AntSoldier

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Just finishing vector now and it has been a tremendous run. Will be trying king slayer next. I love BLR and olympus labs. Best two companies on this board. Can't go wrong with either.
Looking forward to a comparison of the two. Will you be keeping all other variables the same for both runs?
 
nickodemus

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I can't speak for kingslayer, as I haven't tried it. But on Vector I did go from 190 to 200lbs. All muscle, doubtful. But my pant size hasn't gone up. I know that isn't the best scale to measure by, but I haven't seen where I am carrying fat compared to pre-Vector. But every lift I do has gone up considerably over the 2+months time.
 
LeanEngineer

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I'd say get both and run each solo and see what gets you better results.
 
brundel

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Take a look at the Eriobotrya Japonica.
It has some interesting chemical constituents.
Epicatechin
Ursolic acid
Chlorogenic acid
Corosolic acid
Oleanolic acid
Caffeic acid
Procyanidin B2
Protocatechuic acid
Ferulic acid
Tormentic acid
Naringenin
Ellagic acid
EGCG
Quercetin

This is a pretty impressive list of actives. Lets take a look at what some of these do.

Epicatechin.
EJ doesnt have as much epicatechin as something like cocoa or green tea but there is still a decent amount. Its estimated that there is about 150mg per 100g in cocoa and there is about 60mg in EJ so a little less than half. None the less there is enough that epicatechin will be active especially with Narinigenin, EGCG and quercetin in the mix as these all increase the absorption of epicatechin. Lets think of epicatechin as sort of a bonus.

Ursolic acid.
There is a decent dose in here at upwards of 300mg estimated per daily dose of our EJ extract but Ursolic acid is also a major constituent of another of Vectors ingredents giving us approx 500mg + of Ursolic acid per dose. Ursolic acid orally has been show in studies to increase muscle mass, Increase strength, Increase brown fat, Increase glucose utilization and increase exercise capacity. Its been stated that UA is not viable orally but I think I disagree and it seems as though studies also indicate that it is orally active although it has a very poor absorption rate. High doses are required and studies indicate 300+ should be enough orally to produce the desired results.

Corosolic acid.
Corosolic acid is a GDA generally extracted from Banaba (lagerstroemia speciosa) but a significant amount is present in Eribotrya J. Corosolic acid works orally at relatively low doses and has some interesting effects. Even doses of 10mg are viable to display its impressive effects. Most people have heard of Corosolic acid for its glucose effects as it is a major GDA. Corosolic acid can help to keep glucose down with multiple mechanisms of action. Glut4 translocation, reduced insulin resistance as well as all kinds of enzymatic suppression and or expression.
-Corosolic acid has been shown to reduce cholesterol levels and enhance lipid metabolism.
-Corosolic acid is also a great fat burner not only through antidiabetic effects but also by retarding absorption of fatty acids.
-Corosolic acid is a potent and selective inhibitor of the enzyme (11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1) that converts inactive cortisone to active cortisol. Therefore, corosolic acid may prevent excessive cortisol production.
Overall Corosolic acid is one of Vectors great components. Increased Glucose uptake into muscles, decreased blood sugar, increased insulin sensitivity, increased fat utilization and decreased fat diposition plus decreased cortisol make Corosolic a powerhouse.

Oleanolic acid
Oleanolic acid (OA) is a constituent of Olea Europea, Viscum Album and Eriobotrya japonica as well as others.
Its long been used in Chinese medicine for treatment of liver disorders and other ailments. OA increases glucose utilization, is a solid vasodilator and increases expression of the AKT pathway.

Protocatechuic acid
Insulin like activity by activating PPAPy.
Decreases ROS
Antiageing
Anti inflammatory
Antiseptic
analgesic
GLUT4 upregulation
Antioxidant
Protects the testes from damage and stress
Cardio protective

Caffeic acid
Increased exercise capacity
Reduced Blood Lactate
Increased fat loss
Endurance

Ferulic acid, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxycinnamic acid, is one of the most ubiquitous phenolic acids, found in the
bran of grasses such as wheat, rice, and oats. It belongs to the family of plant hydroxycinnamic acids, which
include caffeic acid, sinapic acid, and p-coumaric acid. Recent studies have provided evidence that ferulic acid reduces the risk of disease, including
Alzheimer’s disease, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and colon cancer. Currently, ferulic acid is used to enhance athletic
performance, both in humans and racehorses. Supplementation by it has been found to increase muscle strength in weight lifters.

In one animal study a single acute administration of Ferulic acid increased swimming time by 170%.
Ferulic acid prevented the decrease in catalase, superoxide dismutase and protected against the depletion of GST activity induced by exhaustive
exercise.
Exercise can be associated with oxidative stress. Thus exercise can act as a powerful source of Reactive Oxygen Species, depending on duration and intensity. During exhaustive exercise, fat is typically used as the primary energy source, thus sparing glycogen stores, which in turn retards fatigue. However, during strenuous exercise substantial production of ROS occurs via beta oxidation during the utilization of fat.
In addition, a dramatic increase in oxygen consumption in the body creates an imbalance between ROS and the antioxidant defense system resulting in fatigue.
Acute adminstration of Ferulic acid prevents fatigue, increases endurance and protects the body during exhaustive exercise.

Chlorogenic acid
CA often reffered to as green coffee extract is widely known for its antiobesity effects via PPARa agonism and by preventing proliferation of new fat cells. CA can increase muscular glucose uptake both by stimulating Non insulin dependent AMPK as well as stimulating pAKt. Great for keeping bodyfat off while promoting muscle growth.

Tormentic acid
Anti diabetic
Glut4
AMPK
 
Bagofturdwind

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Take a look at the Eriobotrya Japonica.
It has some interesting chemical constituents.
Epicatechin
Ursolic acid
Chlorogenic acid
Corosolic acid
Oleanolic acid
Caffeic acid
Procyanidin B2
Protocatechuic acid
Ferulic acid
Tormentic acid
Naringenin
Ellagic acid
EGCG
Quercetin

This is a pretty impressive list of actives. Lets take a look at what some of these do.

Epicatechin.
EJ doesnt have as much epicatechin as something like cocoa or green tea but there is still a decent amount. Its estimated that there is about 150mg per 100g in cocoa and there is about 60mg in EJ so a little less than half. None the less there is enough that epicatechin will be active especially with Narinigenin, EGCG and quercetin in the mix as these all increase the absorption of epicatechin. Lets think of epicatechin as sort of a bonus.

Ursolic acid.
There is a decent dose in here at upwards of 300mg estimated per daily dose of our EJ extract but Ursolic acid is also a major constituent of another of Vectors ingredents giving us approx 500mg + of Ursolic acid per dose. Ursolic acid orally has been show in studies to increase muscle mass, Increase strength, Increase brown fat, Increase glucose utilization and increase exercise capacity. Its been stated that UA is not viable orally but I think I disagree and it seems as though studies also indicate that it is orally active although it has a very poor absorption rate. High doses are required and studies indicate 300+ should be enough orally to produce the desired results.

Corosolic acid.
Corosolic acid is a GDA generally extracted from Banaba (lagerstroemia speciosa) but a significant amount is present in Eribotrya J. Corosolic acid works orally at relatively low doses and has some interesting effects. Even doses of 10mg are viable to display its impressive effects. Most people have heard of Corosolic acid for its glucose effects as it is a major GDA. Corosolic acid can help to keep glucose down with multiple mechanisms of action. Glut4 translocation, reduced insulin resistance as well as all kinds of enzymatic suppression and or expression.
-Corosolic acid has been shown to reduce cholesterol levels and enhance lipid metabolism.
-Corosolic acid is also a great fat burner not only through antidiabetic effects but also by retarding absorption of fatty acids.
-Corosolic acid is a potent and selective inhibitor of the enzyme (11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1) that converts inactive cortisone to active cortisol. Therefore, corosolic acid may prevent excessive cortisol production.
Overall Corosolic acid is one of Vectors great components. Increased Glucose uptake into muscles, decreased blood sugar, increased insulin sensitivity, increased fat utilization and decreased fat diposition plus decreased cortisol make Corosolic a powerhouse.

Oleanolic acid
Oleanolic acid (OA) is a constituent of Olea Europea, Viscum Album and Eriobotrya japonica as well as others.
Its long been used in Chinese medicine for treatment of liver disorders and other ailments. OA increases glucose utilization, is a solid vasodilator and increases expression of the AKT pathway.

Protocatechuic acid
Insulin like activity by activating PPAPy.
Decreases ROS
Antiageing
Anti inflammatory
Antiseptic
analgesic
GLUT4 upregulation
Antioxidant
Protects the testes from damage and stress
Cardio protective

Caffeic acid
Increased exercise capacity
Reduced Blood Lactate
Increased fat loss
Endurance

Ferulic acid, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxycinnamic acid, is one of the most ubiquitous phenolic acids, found in the
bran of grasses such as wheat, rice, and oats. It belongs to the family of plant hydroxycinnamic acids, which
include caffeic acid, sinapic acid, and p-coumaric acid. Recent studies have provided evidence that ferulic acid reduces the risk of disease, including
Alzheimer’s disease, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and colon cancer. Currently, ferulic acid is used to enhance athletic
performance, both in humans and racehorses. Supplementation by it has been found to increase muscle strength in weight lifters.

In one animal study a single acute administration of Ferulic acid increased swimming time by 170%.
Ferulic acid prevented the decrease in catalase, superoxide dismutase and protected against the depletion of GST activity induced by exhaustive
exercise.
Exercise can be associated with oxidative stress. Thus exercise can act as a powerful source of Reactive Oxygen Species, depending on duration and intensity. During exhaustive exercise, fat is typically used as the primary energy source, thus sparing glycogen stores, which in turn retards fatigue. However, during strenuous exercise substantial production of ROS occurs via beta oxidation during the utilization of fat.
In addition, a dramatic increase in oxygen consumption in the body creates an imbalance between ROS and the antioxidant defense system resulting in fatigue.
Acute adminstration of Ferulic acid prevents fatigue, increases endurance and protects the body during exhaustive exercise.

Chlorogenic acid
CA often reffered to as green coffee extract is widely known for its antiobesity effects via PPARa agonism and by preventing proliferation of new fat cells. CA can increase muscular glucose uptake both by stimulating Non insulin dependent AMPK as well as stimulating pAKt. Great for keeping bodyfat off while promoting muscle growth.

Tormentic acid
Anti diabetic
Glut4
AMPK
When you do a 100:1 extract, do all of those constituents stay active and that highly dosed? Or are you extracting to have a highly active bioavailability of each of those constituents? I guess I’m wondering how much of what you listed is actually in the final product.
 

Rockzilla

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Just as some people have said, use both! There is literally a sale on K1ngslayer atm. Right now I’m on vector, I will try K1ngslayer after it, and then another natty muscle builder.

2018 IS THE YEAR OF THE BULK.
 

Rand0m

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I can't speak for kingslayer, as I haven't tried it. But on Vector I did go from 190 to 200lbs. All muscle, doubtful. But my pant size hasn't gone up. I know that isn't the best scale to measure by, but I haven't seen where I am carrying fat compared to pre-Vector. But every lift I do has gone up considerably over the 2+months time.
Were you in a surplus before starting?
 

Rockzilla

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WHy does this thread even exist lol, kingslayet JUST got released.
 

bigsmall

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Vector blows away anything that has come out in the past 35 years. I hope OL's new product is better, but statistics show it wont be and their are hundreds and hundreds of positive feedback comments on Vector.
 

Sparta12

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Vector blows away anything that has come out in the past 35 years. I hope OL's new product is better, but statistics show it wont be and their are hundreds and hundreds of positive feedback comments on Vector.
What do you mean statistics show it wont?
 

ironkill

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I think he means "odds" are it wont be as good. Time will tell. Im a big fan of both companies and loved my vector run. picked up two Kingslayer and hoping it goes just as well. we shall see...
 

carguy123

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I think he means "odds" are it wont be as good. Time will tell. Im a big fan of both companies and loved my vector run. picked up two Kingslayer and hoping it goes just as well. we shall see...
I just dont understand how you can bash something without seeing any user feedback or trying it yourself lol. I appreciate both brands and give them both credit for thinking outside the box.
 

bigsmall

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What do you mean statistics show it wont?
I mean no other product imo in the past 35 years comes close to Vector. So what are the chances a new product is going to be better than Vector. Low to nil.
 

bigsmall

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I just dont understand how you can bash something without seeing any user feedback or trying it yourself lol. I appreciate both brands and give them both credit for thinking outside the box.
I m not bashing anything. I use OL Products every day. Its simple...odds are it wont come close.
 

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