Creatine Replacements/ Volumizing Supplements

[dbuckley82]

Hey guys,

Long story short, I started taking creapure for the first time in a few years, m/36yo, and over a 6 week period I noticed SUBSTANTIAL shedding, via mpb. I did not know about creatines ability to raise dht levels. As soon as I stopped taking creatine, shedding ceased. Keep this in mind, as I see a few people thinking this is just an old wives tale. Ironically, I go through a few test boosters a year, and none of them caused shedding like CM. Perhaps creatine can be considered a hormonal product?

That being said, I am looking to replicate the volumizing, weigh gaining abilities of creatine. I was thinking about:

4g betaine
1200mg phosphatidic acid/ fearn granules
couple grams of taurine
Daily

Think thats sufficient? Anything else to add?

Thank you in advance.

 

[InItForGainz]

To increase muscle volume there's also,
Agmatine
Glutamine
Sodium
Nitrates
Glycerol/HydroMax
L-Citrulline
GDA's (Before carb heavy meals)

 

[delsolrob]

Taurine is a cheap and quite effective...up your daily dose to 5g

 

[dbuckley82]

What do you notice at that dosage?

 

[The Express 42]

Well creatine is not hormonal we know that but very bizarre it has that effect on you

 

[IconicForm]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313

 

[cheftepesh1]

I would say Hydromax is good and maybe increasing your sodium alittle.

 

[thebigt]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313

25g creatine with 25g glucose for 7 days followed by 14 days of 5g creatine with 25g glucose....wow!!!

it did increase dht by 56% after 7 days and remained 40% above baseline for 14 days...the study didn't show long term affect but those numbers are VERY substantial, imo.

 

[dbuckley82]

Creatine increases DHT levels, we know that. Google.

 

[thebigt]

Creatine increases DHT levels, we know that. Google.

yes, but I wasn't aware of a 56% increase!!!

 

[jackedviking]

Well this blows. I’ve been saving all my spare change up so I could at least get some creatine, beta alanine and citrulline malate. But I like my hair, so...

 

[thebigt]

Well this blows. I’ve been saving all my spare change up so I could at least get some creatine, beta alanine and citrulline malate. But I like my hair, so...

lol...at the standard 3g daily dose I think you will be fine...that study used 25g daily for 7 days, then went to 5g daily maintenance dose.

 

[jackedviking]

lol...at the standard 3g daily dose I think you will be fine...that study used 25g daily for 7 days, then went to 5g daily maintenance dose.

Thanks for clarifying. I was gonna say, might as well save my money for some juice!

 

[dbuckley82]

It depends on how sensitive your body is to dht. I did ten grams for a little over two weeks then dropped it to 5. Noticed effects to hair on the third week.

 

[jackedviking]

It depends on how sensitive your body is to dht. I did ten grams for a little over two weeks then dropped it to 5. Noticed effects to hair on the third week.

Good to know. Never taken creatine so I have no idea! But I’m 36 and my hair has receded some so I’m a little bummed by this.

 

[kelvarnsen]

It depends on how sensitive your body is to dht. I did ten grams for a little over two weeks then dropped it to 5. Noticed effects to hair on the third week.

Your hair doesn't work that like. In order for DHT to make your hair thin it has to shrink the hair follicle. That isn't happening in 2 weeks.

 

[jackedviking]

Your hair doesn't work that like. In order for DHT to make your hair thin it has to shrink the hair follicle. That isn't happening in 2 weeks.

So does this explain why all the models in the Cell Tech ads are bald?

 

[bonbon]

Might also explain why ppl in cell tech adds are ripped and huge

 

[jackedviking]

Might also explain why ppl in cell tech adds are ripped and huge

LOL

 

[dbuckley82]

Ok, Im sure you are referencing some ergolog study and thats what you base your knowledge on, rather than personal physical experiences. Welp, I cut the creatine out, and hair went back to normal.

 

[kelvarnsen]

Ok, Im sure you are referencing some ergolog study and thats what you base your knowledge on, rather than personal physical experiences. Welp, I cut the creatine out, and hair went back to normal.

No I'm referencing no study, I'm basing it on science. Your hair goes through different cycles. 6 weeks of creatine use didn't cause your hair to shed and then 2 weeks off from creatine didn't cause it to stop. It would take months of use for your hair to miniaturize due to DHT, in which you'd notice your hair appearing to thin due to the smaller follicle size.

This is the same process when using anabolic steroids that raise DHT levels. Your body isn't going to react after a week or two. You're going to notice in 3 or 4 months after the fact. Your shedding phase of your hair might have coincided with your creatine use. But 6 weeks of creatine use didn't make you bald or lose your hair. Any dermatologist who is going to study your hair will track the follicle size over months and years, not weeks. If you were to take a DHT blocking drug such as finasteride, any doctor would tell you to give it a year's worth of use before judging the results. Why? Because your hair will regain size and density over an extended period of time just like if the reverse was happening.

You're also 36 years old. You're at an age where your body is going to start producing more DHT and that's going to equal hair loss if you're prone to it. Creatine has nothing to do with that, it's just going to happen.

 

[dbuckley82]

Well heres the thing. You are basing this knowledge on things that you have read. Common knowledge. Studies. Funny on how alot of my experiences with a ton of different compounds follow a completely different path than 'studies' would suggest. CLA, for example, I respond to greatly. However, if you look at ergolog, examine.com, 'studies' have shown it to be useless. Alcar shreds me up. Examine.com studies however, say that it is ineffective for fat loss. In that same vein, Fadogia specifically, every time I had given it a chance, I have noticed increased hair loss, at that point which I ditch the bottle. As in, ive never taken fadogia for more than 4 weeks, without seeing it on my hairline. When I have ditched, hair goes back to normal. I am 36, but I still have my original hairline. I just lighten up and then bounce back due to whatever lifestyle/training/supplement/diet changes or patterns have caused a hormonal response.

My point is, based on your knowledge, this is impossible, based on clinical, documented knowledge, I am experiencing some sort of 'placebo' or nocebo or perhaps you are indicating that these are just occurrences that have nothing to do with supplementation, just natural patterns of my personal biology. However, you are wrong. I noticed this response with fadogia when I was probably about 25. And everything bounced back. Again, I still have all my hair.

Understand that there are variances for personal responses to anything. I take someones personal, physical observations rather than a funded university study anyday. Way too many people's personal experiences on this site are denounced as some sort of placebo effect, by somebody reiterating something he read online.

 

[kelvarnsen]

Well heres the thing. You are basing this knowledge on things that you have read. Common knowledge. Studies. Funny on how alot of my experiences with a ton of different compounds follow a completely different path than 'studies' would suggest. CLA, for example, I respond to greatly. However, if you look at ergolog, examine.com, 'studies' have shown it to be useless. Alcar shreds me up. Examine.com studies however, say that it is ineffective for fat loss. In that same vein, Fadogia specifically, every time I had given it a chance, I have noticed increased hair loss, at that point which I ditch the bottle. As in, ive never taken fadogia for more than 4 weeks, without seeing it on my hairline. When I have ditched, hair goes back to normal. I am 36, but I still have my original hairline. I just lighten up and then bounce back due to whatever lifestyle/training/supplement/diet changes or patterns have caused a hormonal response.

My point is, based on your knowledge, this is impossible, based on clinical, documented knowledge, I am experiencing some sort of 'placebo' or nocebo or perhaps you are indicating that these are just occurrences that have nothing to do with supplementation, just natural patterns of my personal biology. However, you are wrong. I noticed this response with fadogia when I was probably about 25. And everything bounced back. Again, I still have all my hair.

Understand that there are variances for personal responses to anything. I take someones personal, physical observations rather than a funded university study anyday. Way too many people's personal experiences on this site are denounced as some sort of placebo effect, by somebody reiterating something he read online.

I'm not saying it's impossible for creatine to increase DHT, it might. It's hard for me to put a ton of faith into 1 college rugby study and say it's gospel. What I'm saying is if creatine does in fact raise DHT, those effects would not be noticed in a 6 week time period, nor would they be reversed in a 2 week time period. Science says it isn't possible.

You need to be examined for things that cause rapid hair loss. DHT doesn't cause rapid hair loss it causes gradual miniaturization of the follicle which then eventually becomes a bald spot. Things that cause rapid hair loss are thyroid, crash diets, stress. Not DHT.

 

[toddmuelheim]

I'm not saying it's impossible for creatine to increase DHT, it might. It's hard for me to put a ton of faith into 1 college rugby study and say it's gospel. What I'm saying is if creatine does in fact raise DHT, those effects would not be noticed in a 6 week time period, nor would they be reversed in a 2 week time period. Science says it isn't possible.

You need to be examined for things that cause rapid hair loss. DHT doesn't cause rapid hair loss it causes gradual miniaturization of the follicle which then eventually becomes a bald spot. Things that cause rapid hair loss are thyroid, crash diets, stress. Not DHT.

Shouldn’t you be at a parade, Varnsen?

 

[kelvarnsen]

Shouldn’t you be at a parade, Varnsen?

Baseball game is more important

 

[Jiigzz]

Well heres the thing. You are basing this knowledge on things that you have read. Common knowledge. Studies. Funny on how alot of my experiences with a ton of different compounds follow a completely different path than 'studies' would suggest. CLA, for example, I respond to greatly. However, if you look at ergolog, examine.com, 'studies' have shown it to be useless. Alcar shreds me up. Examine.com studies however, say that it is ineffective for fat loss. In that same vein, Fadogia specifically, every time I had given it a chance, I have noticed increased hair loss, at that point which I ditch the bottle. As in, ive never taken fadogia for more than 4 weeks, without seeing it on my hairline. When I have ditched, hair goes back to normal. I am 36, but I still have my original hairline. I just lighten up and then bounce back due to whatever lifestyle/training/supplement/diet changes or patterns have caused a hormonal response.

My point is, based on your knowledge, this is impossible, based on clinical, documented knowledge, I am experiencing some sort of 'placebo' or nocebo or perhaps you are indicating that these are just occurrences that have nothing to do with supplementation, just natural patterns of my personal biology. However, you are wrong. I noticed this response with fadogia when I was probably about 25. And everything bounced back. Again, I still have all my hair.

Understand that there are variances for personal responses to anything. I take someones personal, physical observations rather than a funded university study anyday. Way too many people's personal experiences on this site are denounced as some sort of placebo effect, by somebody reiterating something he read online.

I have some snake oil you should buy. PM me if interested

Placebo effect is very real, and can actually influence outcomes substantially. It is why Dr's. Prescribe sugar pills for sick children who 'miraculously' get better because they think it is medicine, it is why that steroid study worked so well when noone was actually using steroids, it is why the MSG Placebo study found that when people were told a meal contained MSG they got sick, yet when they compared it to a meal that also contained MSG but they were told it didn't, they didn't get sick. Weird, right?

If you think you're not subject to Placebo, you're wrong. Studies actually measure the parameters, whereas you go off 'what you feel and notice' which is completely subjective and entirely tied into your emotions.

The problem with this mindset of studies are wrong and I am right is part of the reason why we are heading for an intellectual black hole, and how people fall for stupid online product scams where everything and anything can be sold to people. A child died because some 'expert' told a parent you could cure autism (I think) by drinking a concoction that contained bleach.

Our society is getting dumber because people can't differentiate between good sources of information, and people spouting nonsense to make money.

 

[slickwillie]

I took a break from creatine for a few years, and then decided to start up again a couple of years ago. I decided to test the small study of South African rugby players which supports the notion that creatine increases DHT. So I first had a baseline test, and then had 2 follow up tests- 30 days after starting creatine, and then 60 days after starting creatine. My DHT levels never changed. So I call BS on that study.

 

[jackedviking]

I took a break from creatine for a few years, and then decided to start up again a couple of years ago. I decided to test the small study of South African rugby players which supports the notion that creatine increases DHT. So I first had a baseline test, and then had 2 follow up tests- 30 days after starting creatine, and then 60 days after starting creatine. My DHT levels never changed. So I call BS on that study.

Rugby players probably toss some PEDs in the mix here and there. So, I call BS on the study too.

 

[dbuckley82]

Wow, you either misread my statement, or it completely went over your head��

I am not implying that I am immune to the placebo effect, that is a ridiculous statement. I am saying that when personal observations from certain compounds are voiced on this site, more often than not a gang of prideful know-it-alls and internet ergolog champions come full force with cut and paste snippets on how a study was done that contridicts the poster's observation. Or they denounce the findings as 'placebo effect.' 'Science has deemed that not possible.' 'What you are saying goes against 'good sources of information.'

As I said in my original post, I have run a number of supplements that have had a reputation for certain benefits, however studies had confirmed them 'debunked.' Its hilarious on how short minded and egotistical some of these AM champions are. Maybe they get a high on, in their own mind, proving people wrong. 'You are wrong, not possible, I read it wrong, revel in all of my acquired information based on studies I didnt have any part of,
I win������'

What I am saying is I could give a f@ck about what the studies imply. I'm not going to repeat myself on my observations, if they are not taken seriously. What I have seen, I know for a fact, others have seen too. Again, open up your mind to the possibility that people have a range of reactions that may contradict your vast interstellar knowledge of bodybuilding supplements, and leave it at that.��

 

[thebigt]

Wow, you either misread my statement, or it completely went over your head��

I am not implying that I am immune to the placebo effect, that is a ridiculous statement. I am saying that when personal observations from certain compounds are voiced on this site, more often than not a gang of prideful know-it-alls and internet ergolog champions come full force with cut and paste snippets on how a study was done that contridicts the poster's observation. Or they denounce the findings as 'placebo effect.' 'Science has deemed that not possible.' 'What you are saying goes against 'good sources of information.'

As I said in my original post, I have run a number of supplements that have had a reputation for certain benefits, however studies had confirmed them 'debunked.' Its hilarious on how short minded and egotistical some of these AM champions are. Maybe they get a high on, in their own mind, proving people wrong. 'You are wrong, not possible, I read it wrong, revel in all of my acquired information based on studies I didnt have any part of,
I win������'

What I am saying is I could give a f@ck about what the studies imply. I'm not going to repeat myself on my observations, if they are not taken seriously. What I have seen, I know for a fact, others have seen too. Again, open up your mind to the possibility that people have a range of reactions that may contradict your vast interstellar knowledge of bodybuilding supplements, and leave it at that.��

lol...I forgot what point you were trying to make......

 

[jackedviking]

lol...I forgot what point you were trying to make......

The Op forgot as well.

At first, he said creatine raises his DHT and consequently he went bald. When someone countered him, he told us to google it because its basically fact that creatine will make ya go bald via some studies.

Then there was a **** ton of back and forth.

And now he has reversed his stance on studies by basically saying “I don’t give a **** about studies.”

So, in a nutshell, it’s just another useless thread where the Op knows everything because he cherry picks studies and we know nothing because we aren’t cherry picking the same studies he cherry picked.

SNAFU!