Is Agmatine really our friend?

Ricky10

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I happened to come upon reports today that agmatine suppresses amino acid/protein synthesis as well as cellular proliferation. Consequently, it also has an impact on liver regeneration/health. Here are some links...

Agmatine Suppresses Proliferation by Frameshift Induction of Antizyme and Attenuation of Cellular Polyamine Levels

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14727007

Probably not all that problematic if it is just used PWO, but I have been supplementing 500mg twice a day for months now. Then there are some GDA’s that contain a healthy dose of agmatine. Kind of makes all that protein consumption a bit fruitless...

I know that agmatine has some benefits, but I think this turns out to be a loss in the end. Why do we continue to take this...am I missing something? Thoughts?
 
iamyourfather

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quote examine.com/agmatine

„Although the trials cannot be found, an MSDS reports that the acute LD50 of agmatine is 300mg/kg after oral ingestion in mice, 980mg/kg in rats, and 3200mg/kg in rabbits.[351]

A study conducted over 51 days assessing dose tolerability that used 1.335g (10 days), 2.67g (subsequent 10 days), 3.56g (subsequent 10 days followed by 21 days of maintenance) with the dose divided into thrice daily doses with meals in patients with lumbosacral spine degenerative pathologies associated with radiculopathy did not note any significant health effects of supplementation aside from sparse gastrointestinal discomfort when the dose was increased to 3.56g which faded after a few days.[167]“

„Limited evidence in humans, but currently there are no known side-effects. Insufficient evidence to conclude its level of safety, however“

https://examine.com/supplements/agmatine/


———-

generally it is recommended (i think no research to prove that, its just commonly known to be the best way) to use it with a scheme like 3 days on, 2 days off or something equal to prevent any probable tolerance buildup. and then i have to say that we arent rats, so you have to take studys done on rodents with a grain of salt.

i would check every supplement or substance on examine, they have summarized VERY much, if not all (dont know how frequently they update it but i think its extremely up-to-date), research for each ingredient. so you can determine if you like to use it or not, based on facts.
 
Ricky10

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Honestly, I don’t know what to think now...

I will probably just restrict use to my preworkout, as it is already in there.

I love the part in ergo-log that states it contributes to the conversion of amino acids into glucose due to gluconeogenesis. That’s just wonderful! I know of some BCAA products that contain agmatine...haha

Maybe the rest of the potential issues are counteracted by the positive attributes?
 
muscleupcrohn

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quote examine.com/agmatine

„Although the trials cannot be found, an MSDS reports that the acute LD50 of agmatine is 300mg/kg after oral ingestion in mice, 980mg/kg in rats, and 3200mg/kg in rabbits.[351]

A study conducted over 51 days assessing dose tolerability that used 1.335g (10 days), 2.67g (subsequent 10 days), 3.56g (subsequent 10 days followed by 21 days of maintenance) with the dose divided into thrice daily doses with meals in patients with lumbosacral spine degenerative pathologies associated with radiculopathy did not note any significant health effects of supplementation aside from sparse gastrointestinal discomfort when the dose was increased to 3.56g which faded after a few days.[167]“

„Limited evidence in humans, but currently there are no known side-effects. Insufficient evidence to conclude its level of safety, however“

https://examine.com/supplements/agmatine/


———-

generally it is recommended (i think no research to prove that, its just commonly known to be the best way) to use it with a scheme like 3 days on, 2 days off or something equal to prevent any probable tolerance buildup. and then i have to say that we arent rats, so you have to take studys done on rodents with a grain of salt.

i would check every supplement or substance on examine, they have summarized VERY much, if not all (dont know how frequently they update it but i think its extremely up-to-date), research for each ingredient. so you can determine if you like to use it or not, based on facts.
There’s also a much longer study than the 51 day study:

2.67g/day for 5 years.

“Clinical follow-up consists of periodic physical examinations and laboratory blood and urine analyses. All measurements thus far remain within normal values and good general health status is sustained throughout the study period, up to 5 years. This case study shows for the first time that the recommended high dosage of agmatine may be consumed for at least 5 years without evidence of any adverse effects. These initial findings are highly important as they provide significant evidence for the extended long-term safety of a high daily dosage of dietary agmatine--a cardinal advantage for its utility as a nutraceutical.”

Not a big sample size, but still, not many ingredients like this ever get any research lasting nearly this long.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25247837/
 
iamyourfather

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There’s also a much longer study than the 51 day study:

2.67g/day for 5 years.

“Clinical follow-up consists of periodic physical examinations and laboratory blood and urine analyses. All measurements thus far remain within normal values and good general health status is sustained throughout the study period, up to 5 years. This case study shows for the first time that the recommended high dosage of agmatine may be consumed for at least 5 years without evidence of any adverse effects. These initial findings are highly important as they provide significant evidence for the extended long-term safety of a high daily dosage of dietary agmatine--a cardinal advantage for its utility as a nutraceutical.”

Not a big sample size, but still, not many ingredients like this ever get any research lasting nearly this long.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25247837/
nice, thank you! didnt know that paper.

so, OP, is this enough evidence to prove its safety? ;-)

oh and muscleupcrohn i think there is no research for the optimal dose to get the highest or strongest NO boost? are 2g more effective than 1g is? after trying it, i would say there isnt much difference between but i can be wrong due changes in diet (iifym) and therefore different pump feelings
 
Ricky10

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iamyourfather I was actually less concerned about the proposed implications on liver health than I was about protein synthesis and cell proliferation. However, that certainly is good news :)

Any further clarification on this muscleupcrohn in regard to protein synthesis and cell proliferation?
 
muscleupcrohn

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I happened to come upon reports today that agmatine suppresses amino acid/protein synthesis as well as cellular proliferation. Consequently, it also has an impact on liver regeneration/health. Here are some links...

Agmatine Suppresses Proliferation by Frameshift Induction of Antizyme and Attenuation of Cellular Polyamine Levels

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14727007

Probably not all that problematic if it is just used PWO, but I have been supplementing 500mg twice a day for months now. Then there are some GDA’s that contain a healthy dose of agmatine. Kind of makes all that protein consumption a bit fruitless...

I know that agmatine has some benefits, but I think this turns out to be a loss in the end. Why do we continue to take this...am I missing something? Thoughts?
Also, regarding the second study, 250-500mg for rats is equivalent to approximately 5.6-11.2g for a 70kg human. Also, perhaps more importantly, it was given after a two-thirds hepatectomy, so not exactly a normal/healthy situation.

Interestingly enough, the full text (discussion) of this study noted that:

“This inhibition of regeneration is similar in magnitude to the impairment of liver mass restitution in the presence of other regulatory compounds such as γ-amino butyric acid (Minuk and Gauthier 1993).”

That’s GABA.
 
thebigt

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Also, regarding the second study, 250-500mg for rats is equivalent to approximately 5.6-11.2g for a 70kg human. Also, perhaps more importantly, it was given after a two-thirds hepatectomy, so not exactly a normal/healthy situation.

Interestingly enough, the full text (discussion) of this study noted that:

“This inhibition of regeneration is similar in magnitude to the impairment of liver mass restitution in the presence of other regulatory compounds such as γ-amino butyric acid (Minuk and Gauthier 1993).”

That’s GABA.
damn, you really are a nerd, lol....but lots of bro love for all the info you put out-thanks!!!
 
cheftepesh1

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There’s also a much longer study than the 51 day study:

2.67g/day for 5 years.

“Clinical follow-up consists of periodic physical examinations and laboratory blood and urine analyses. All measurements thus far remain within normal values and good general health status is sustained throughout the study period, up to 5 years. This case study shows for the first time that the recommended high dosage of agmatine may be consumed for at least 5 years without evidence of any adverse effects. These initial findings are highly important as they provide significant evidence for the extended long-term safety of a high daily dosage of dietary agmatine--a cardinal advantage for its utility as a nutraceutical.”

Not a big sample size, but still, not many ingredients like this ever get any research lasting nearly this long.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25247837/
I';ve read that study and found it more believable. I think the overall benefits are there/.
 
muscleupcrohn

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iamyourfather I was actually less concerned about the proposed implications on liver health than I was about protein synthesis and cell proliferation. However, that certainly is good news :)

Any further clarification on this muscleupcrohn in regard to protein synthesis and cell proliferation?
The second study in your OP tested hepatoma cells; hepatoma is defined as “a usually malignant tumor occurring in the liver.” If that is all they tested, I wouldn’t automatically extrapolate that to all cells.
 
Ricky10

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The second study in your OP tested hepatoma cells; hepatoma is defined as “a usually malignant tumor occurring in the liver.” If that is all they tested, I wouldn’t automatically extrapolate that to all cells.
Agreed..
Still, something about this just still doesn’t sit well with me in regards to the process of skeletal muscle proliferation...

EFFECTS ON CELL PROLIFERATION

Polyamines such as putrescine, spermidine and spermine are essential for normal DNA replication, cell proliferation and cell migration. Their production is tightly regulated, par- ticularly via the rate-limiting enzyme, ornithine decarboxylase (22,31,43,70). Polyamine depletion results in growth arrest (4). As indicated earlier, agmatine interferes with polyamine biosynthesis via induction of antizyme, which induces the degradation of orni- thine decarboxylase and suppresses polyamine transporters but, alternatively, can be con- verted to putrescine through the actions of agmatinase (Fig. 2). Normally, proteins will be degraded after attachment of ubiquitin, but a small number of proteins, including ornithine decarboxylase, are handled differently. This enzyme is targeted for destruction by another protein antizyme (13,74). Therefore, it is tempting to speculate that the regulation of the half-life of ornithine decarboxylase protein is important and that this enzyme is tightly and specifically regulated. Agmatine (4 mmolGL) induces the expression of functional anti- zyme by an agmatine-dependent translational frameshift of antizyme mRNA to produce a full-length protein (62), resulting in a depletion of intracellular polyamines leading to sup- pression of cellular proliferation (52). In addition, agmatine depletes cells of polyamines by interacting with another enzyme involved in polyamine metabolism, spermidineGsper- mine acetyltransferase (SSAT). Agmatine increases the synthesis of this rate-limiting en- zyme of the interconversion pathway between polyamines (0.5 mmolGL) (71). Increased SSAT activity by agmatine is accompanied by depletion of spermidine and spermine, and accumulation of putrescine and N1-acetylspermidine (71). The authors concluded that the depletion of spermidine and spermine causes the inhibition of cell growth, although the el- evated putrescine levels do not fit in this scheme since putrescine would normally promote cell proliferation (52,55). However, agmatine may also inhibit cell proliferation by com- pletely different mechanisms involving the inhibition of polyamine transport into cells (5,8). Another possible pathway by which agmatine may alter cell proliferation is by binding to I2 receptors (53,55), especially since the I2 agonist idazoxan potently inhibits vascular smooth muscle cell growth (55), although agmatine has a lower affinity for I2 binding sites.

Taken together, these findings suggest that agmatine may inhibit cellular proliferation by several different mechanisms, such as inhibition of polyamine transport into cells, induction of antizyme and inhibition of ODC, stimulation of I2 binding sites as well as an in-duction of SSAT activity. It is not clear which of these possible mechanisms plays a leading role or whether a combination of different mechanisms is involved. Moreover, as with the effects of agmatine described earlier high concentrations (up to 1 mmolGL) (52) are necessary to inhibit cell proliferation. It is not clear whether agmatine is normally present in any tissue at sufficiently high levels to inhibit cell proliferation in vivo.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1527-3466.2004.tb00128.x/asset/j.1527-3466.2004.tb00128.x.pdf?v=1&t=jcr4vr8s&a0146a51

Honestly, I have no idea what concentrations of 1 mmolGL could possibly equate to, but this excerpt is more along the lines of why I question the use of agmatine in bodybuilding..
 
muscleupcrohn

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Agreed..
Still, something about this just still doesn’t sit well with me in regards to the process of skeletal muscle proliferation...

EFFECTS ON CELL PROLIFERATION

Polyamines such as putrescine, spermidine and spermine are essential for normal DNA replication, cell proliferation and cell migration. Their production is tightly regulated, par- ticularly via the rate-limiting enzyme, ornithine decarboxylase (22,31,43,70). Polyamine depletion results in growth arrest (4). As indicated earlier, agmatine interferes with polyamine biosynthesis via induction of antizyme, which induces the degradation of orni- thine decarboxylase and suppresses polyamine transporters but, alternatively, can be con- verted to putrescine through the actions of agmatinase (Fig. 2). Normally, proteins will be degraded after attachment of ubiquitin, but a small number of proteins, including ornithine decarboxylase, are handled differently. This enzyme is targeted for destruction by another protein antizyme (13,74). Therefore, it is tempting to speculate that the regulation of the half-life of ornithine decarboxylase protein is important and that this enzyme is tightly and specifically regulated. Agmatine (4 mmolGL) induces the expression of functional anti- zyme by an agmatine-dependent translational frameshift of antizyme mRNA to produce a full-length protein (62), resulting in a depletion of intracellular polyamines leading to sup- pression of cellular proliferation (52). In addition, agmatine depletes cells of polyamines by interacting with another enzyme involved in polyamine metabolism, spermidineGsper- mine acetyltransferase (SSAT). Agmatine increases the synthesis of this rate-limiting en- zyme of the interconversion pathway between polyamines (0.5 mmolGL) (71). Increased SSAT activity by agmatine is accompanied by depletion of spermidine and spermine, and accumulation of putrescine and N1-acetylspermidine (71). The authors concluded that the depletion of spermidine and spermine causes the inhibition of cell growth, although the el- evated putrescine levels do not fit in this scheme since putrescine would normally promote cell proliferation (52,55). However, agmatine may also inhibit cell proliferation by com- pletely different mechanisms involving the inhibition of polyamine transport into cells (5,8). Another possible pathway by which agmatine may alter cell proliferation is by binding to I2 receptors (53,55), especially since the I2 agonist idazoxan potently inhibits vascular smooth muscle cell growth (55), although agmatine has a lower affinity for I2 binding sites.

Taken together, these findings suggest that agmatine may inhibit cellular proliferation by several different mechanisms, such as inhibition of polyamine transport into cells, induction of antizyme and inhibition of ODC, stimulation of I2 binding sites as well as an in-duction of SSAT activity. It is not clear which of these possible mechanisms plays a leading role or whether a combination of different mechanisms is involved. Moreover, as with the effects of agmatine described earlier high concentrations (up to 1 mmolGL) (52) are necessary to inhibit cell proliferation. It is not clear whether agmatine is normally present in any tissue at sufficiently high levels to inhibit cell proliferation in vivo.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1527-3466.2004.tb00128.x/asset/j.1527-3466.2004.tb00128.x.pdf?v=1&t=jcr4vr8s&a0146a51

Honestly, I have no idea what concentrations of 1 mmolGL could possibly equate to, but this excerpt is more along the lines of why I question the use of agmatine in bodybuilding..
Let us focus on some less "abstract" research that requires less assumptions and guesswork:

The current findings that AGM improved Car status (Fig. 6 and Table 2) and decreased triglyceride accumulation in the liver and muscles (Figs. 3 and ​and4)4) suggest that AGM may be a useful agent for preventing fatty liver disease and the associated metabolic syndrome.
The consumption of AGM resulted in about a 15% reduction in body weight (BW) gain between 30 and 55 days in HFD + AGM or SD + AGM compared with the HFD or SD study group, respectively (Fig. 1d). The changes in BW were not a result of decreased calorie intake, which was similar with or without AGM (Fig. 1c). To examine whether the AGM-induced decrease in BW gain is due to changes in body fat or protein composition, we determined fat and protein content in the liver and muscle. Data in Fig. 3 demonstrate that in rats given AGM the fraction of protein was significantly higher in liver or muscle. However, the fraction of total lipids was decreased by about 20–25% in the liver regardless of the diet (Fig. 3b). In muscle, the fraction of lipids was decreased by about 35% in SD + AGM and 20% in the HFD + AGM group (Fig. 3f). Similarly, the tissue levels of free fatty acids and TG (Figs. 3 and ​and4)4) and the epididymal fat area (data not shown) were decreased by AGM consumption. The diminished lipid accumulation in tissues is in agreement with reduced plasma leptin and elevated adiponectin levels (Fig. 2) and in accord with previous observations indicating an increased adiponectin/leptin ratio associated with increased FAO and reduced lipid mass in peripheral tissues (34). Taken together, the data suggest that AGM increased tissue protein and reduced BW gain mainly due to lower fat mass.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3975019/

From the study you are concerned about:

"Moreover, as
with the effects of agmatine described earlier high concentrations (up to 1 mmolL) (52)
are necessary to inhibit cell proliferation. It is not clear whether agmatine is normally
present in any tissue at sufficiently high levels to inhibit cell proliferation in vivo."

1mmol/L is equal to 1,000nmol/ml We'll see why that matters below:

"In muscle, AGM was undetectable; in peripheral plasma, AGM was below 1 nmol/ml as determined by HPLC analysis"
(from the study I previously mentioned):

As the research you are concerned about, note the question of if it's even relevant in vivo. Now, since agmatine in peripheral plasma was below 1nmol/ml, but undetectable in muscle, that should mean it was also less than 1nmol/ml, or less than 1,000 of the amount mentioned as being "necessary to inhibit cell proliferation."

I could be getting some numbers/calculations/conversions/logic a little twisted this late at night trying to multi-task, but it seems most likely to be of no practical significance, which lines up with the many anecdotal reports of people building muscle just fine, or better than just fine, using agmatine.

I hope that helps a little bit.
 
NoAddedHmones

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Also, regarding the second study, 250-500mg for rats is equivalent to approximately 5.6-11.2g for a 70kg human. Also, perhaps more importantly, it was given after a two-thirds hepatectomy, so not exactly a normal/healthy situation.

Interestingly enough, the full text (discussion) of this study noted that:

“This inhibition of regeneration is similar in magnitude to the impairment of liver mass restitution in the presence of other regulatory compounds such as γ-amino butyric acid (Minuk and Gauthier 1993).”

That’s GABA.
Actually more like ~14.5g - ~29g (for an 80kg human)
 
muscleupcrohn

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Actually more like ~14.5g - ~29g (for an 80kg human)
What weight did you use for the rat?

Assuming 500g, or 0.5kg:

250mg / 0.5kg = 500mg/kg

x 0.16 (HED conversion value) = 80mg/kg

X 70kg (human weight) = 5,600mg, or 5.6g.

Double that for the 500mg dose.

Had I gone with 300mg instead of 500mg, I’d get a range of 9.33-18.67g.

I’m a little tired, are my math or assumptions off?

Edit: I see you used 80kg for the human:

That’d give:

for 500g rat: 6.4-12.8g

for 300g rat: 10.67-21.33g
 
NoAddedHmones

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What weight did you use for the rat?

Assuming 500g, or 0.5kg:

250mg / 0.5kg = 500mg/kg

x 0.16 (HED conversion value) = 80mg/kg

X 70kg (human weight) = 5,600mg, or 5.6g.

Double that for the 500mg dose.

Had I gone with 300mg instead of 500mg, I’d get a range of 9.33-18.67g.

I’m a little tired, are my math or assumptions off?

Edit: I see you used 80kg for the human:

That’d give:

for 500g rat: 6.4-12.8g

for 300g rat: 10.67-21.33g
Ahh i used a 230g rat
 
muscleupcrohn

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Dosages given weren’t per kg.
I know. They gave 250mg to a rat, I used the average weight for an adult male rat, 300-500g. That allows me to calculate a mg/kg dose. Then I converted using HED to give a human equivalent dose in mg/kg, and multiplied that by the weight of the human to get the final dose.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Just read the full text. Rats weighted about 250g.

That’d give human mg/kg of 160-320mg/kg:

For 70kg human: 11.2-22.4g

For 80kg human: 12.8-25.6g

We’re major nerds lol.
 
Ricky10

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I could be getting some numbers/calculations/conversions/logic a little twisted this late at night trying to multi-task, but it seems most likely to be of no practical significance, which lines up with the many anecdotal reports of people building muscle just fine, or better than just fine, using agmatine.

I hope that helps a little bit.
I fell asleep....
Well, if you are convinced that it is not detrimental to the muscle building process...I am on board! Those would be huge doses for a human..

Thanks!
 

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