Making my own PWO From bulk

[Pumpniron91]

Ok so I’m gonna try something new since I’m tired of buying pre workouts that lack certain ingredients and just don’t deliver. Mesomorph has always been my go to but I need to take a break from it and especially now they quit making it due to legality. So here’s my choice of ingredients if anyone can input if they can be all consumed without interactions that would be awesome as I’m not 100% sure.


Hydromax 2gm
L-norvaline 200mg
L-citrulline malate 8gm
Caffeine anhydrous 200mg
ALCAR 2gm
Beta alanine 3gm
L-Theanine 200mg



Thanks ahead you guys

 

[TheSuppGuy]

Ok so I’m gonna try something new since I’m tired of buying pre workouts that lack certain ingredients and just don’t deliver. Mesomorph has always been my go to but I need to take a break from it and especially now they quit making it due to legality. So here’s my choice of ingredients if anyone can input if they can be all consumed without interactions that would be awesome as I’m not 100% sure.


Hydromax 2gm
L-norvaline 200mg
L-citrulline malate 8gm
Caffeine anhydrous 200mg
ALCAR 2gm
Beta alanine 3gm
L-Theanine 200mg



Thanks ahead you guys

What is gm?

 

[Pumpniron91]

Gm=grams
Mg=milligrams

 

[rrivers]

I have been thinking about doing the same thing. I like your list but I would add in 2g of betaine. I also like 1.5g creatine HCL in my pre, but normally have to mix it in myself. Kris Gethin's Pre-Kaged is the best dosed pre that I have seen with everything I want (and a few things I'm not sure about), but the price is a bit steep. Are you going to add any flavoring or just try to choke it down?

 

[heavylifter33]

Ok so I’m gonna try something new since I’m tired of buying pre workouts that lack certain ingredients and just don’t deliver. Mesomorph has always been my go to but I need to take a break from it and especially now they quit making it due to legality. So here’s my choice of ingredients if anyone can input if they can be all consumed without interactions that would be awesome as I’m not 100% sure.


Hydromax 2gm
L-norvaline 200mg
L-citrulline malate 8gm
Caffeine anhydrous 200mg
ALCAR 2gm
Beta alanine 3gm
L-Theanine 200mg



Thanks ahead you guys

But they all act within the body... that's the point...

Do you mean consumption without negative side effects? It's not like you're combining 2 pharmaceutical drugs and need to be wary of their interaction lol.

As far as your mix, theanine you want a 2:1 ratio to caffeine, seems to be the sweet spot. ALCAR are you certain you want 2g as that's the sweet spot for you? Easy one to play around with, nothing wrong with 2g doses tho. I'd recommend 6g max per day ALCAR tho. Otherwise fine. I'd add Agmatine or something personally.

 

[Pumpniron91]

Lol I actually was thinking about adding Betaine for the pump and strength benefits sht I forgot to add creatine 1:1 ratio to hydromax. I actually tried pre Kaged 3 times but it kept giving me chest pains didn’t know why then figured out it’s from the mega dose of NALT. I usually take mesomorph or dust or superpump 250
So I know it’s not a stim issue
No flavoring throw it back like a shot lol tastes don’t bother me

 

[Pumpniron91]

Yes I meant interactions with each other cause side effects
Not necessarily
L Theanine and l norvaline both lower blood pressure so I wasn’t sure about that but I was thinking caffeine would cancel out that effect . I’m gonna play with dosages to see what feels best what would u recommend for alcar? This mix is already getting kinda pricey so I wanted to keep it simple and not have tons of ingredients but we’ll see if it’s lacking somewhere I’ll remove or add you know

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Personally, I’d remove the norvaline. There’s really no research showing it works in healthy subjects (Cooper talked about this a while ago), and citrulline is superior; if you want extra pumps, I’d add agmatine or nitrates. Also, 1g of NALT is not a “mega dose,” and research seems to indicate that l-tyrosine is superior to NALT: 2g is a solid dose, but even that isn’t a “mega dose,” as studies often use even higher daily doses, and sometimes higher acute doses.

 

[Pumpniron91]

It was mega to my ass lol never had that type of experience with anything so apparently I can’t tolerate it in that dose for whatever reason
As to your comment about no studies on l norvaline I think u should look again my friend
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9458885/
This is just one Many others if you choose to use the search function
But yes nitrates would be nice if someone could find me a source for bulk potassium nitrate, arginine nitrate or Betaine nitrates is apperciate as I cannot

 

[Bintherduntht]

Ok so I’m gonna try something new since I’m tired of buying pre workouts that lack certain ingredients and just don’t deliver. Mesomorph has always been my go to but I need to take a break from it and especially now they quit making it due to legality. So here’s my choice of ingredients if anyone can input if they can be all consumed without interactions that would be awesome as I’m not 100% sure.


Hydromax 2gm
L-norvaline 200mg
L-citrulline malate 8gm
Caffeine anhydrous 200mg
ALCAR 2gm
Beta alanine 3gm
L-Theanine 200mg



Thanks ahead you guys

Definitely add that agmatine

 

[Bintherduntht]

Ok so I’m gonna try something new since I’m tired of buying pre workouts that lack certain ingredients and just don’t deliver. Mesomorph has always been my go to but I need to take a break from it and especially now they quit making it due to legality. So here’s my choice of ingredients if anyone can input if they can be all consumed without interactions that would be awesome as I’m not 100% sure.


Hydromax 2gm
L-norvaline 200mg
L-citrulline malate 8gm
Caffeine anhydrous 200mg
ALCAR 2gm
Beta alanine 3gm
L-Theanine 200mg



Thanks ahead you guys

Creatine mono?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

It was mega to my ass lol never had that type of experience with anything so apparently I can’t tolerate it in that dose for whatever reason
As to your comment about no studies on l norvaline I think u should look again my friend
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9458885/
This is just one Many others if you choose to use the search function
But yes nitrates would be nice if someone could find me a source for bulk potassium nitrate, arginine nitrate or Betaine nitrates is apperciate as I cannot

Yes, because “J774A.1 mouse macrophages” are healthy human subjects. How could I have forgotten that?

Also, if you know where to look, you can find a great deal on potassium nitrate caps. I would offer to help you, but I’ll just repeat your advice to “use the search function.”

 

[Pumpniron91]

Piss off with your attitude bud

 

[Pumpniron91]

Yes I had left that out 1:1 rationwith hydromax

 

[Pumpniron91]

Probably a gram would suffice

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Piss off with your attitude bud

You came here asking for advice/suggestions/thoughts, which I went out of my way to offer to you. You then misread what I was saying, or couldn’t understand that a study on J774A.1 mouse macrophages is not a study using healthy human subjects, or even human subjects at all, and then proceeded to condescend to me, telling me to use the search function. But I’m the one with the attitude, of course.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Probably a gram would suffice

Of creatine monohydrate? 1g of creatine in the context of acute pre-workout supplementation would be essentially useless. If you’re not using creatine daily/regularly, then try 3-5g per day (PWO is fine), but 1g on workout days without additional supplementation isn’t going to do much of anything for you.

 

[Pumpniron91]

You bash an ingredient with literally no evidence to back your claim
I’m sorry that’s rude
I did my research on each compound I take it you haven’t plus I go off personal experiences with them as I know these work for me
You are no longer being helpful

 

[Pumpniron91]

Omg dude piss off I replied to his comment of agmatine holy hell

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You bash an ingredient with literally no evidence to back your claim
I’m sorry that’s rude
I did my research on each compound I take it you haven’t plus I go off personal experiences with them as I know these work for me
You are no longer being helpful

Do you have stock in norvaline? You got oddly defensive when I simply stated that I’d remove it. You claim I have “no evidence,” but I said that there aren’t any studies using healthy human subjects showing nitric oxide related benefits. That is my evidence. It’s not necessary evidence that it is useless, but it does show that it’s far from proven, which is why I recommended the much more proven citrulline and/or nitrates, which have multiple studies showing benefits. Before condescending to me, perhaps actually read my posts, or ask me to elaborate/explain my claims instead of becoming defensive.

If you did all your research, and know everything, why come here asking questions?

 

[Bintherduntht]

Creatine would require 5 grams. The standard. Lowest I would go is 3. But 5 is the sweet spot

 

[bigdavid]

Yes if there is one thing to take away here it is that cellular assays do not carry over well to entire organisms...it’s only used to elucidate pathways and figure out details that might happen in certain situations but you can’t go from macrophages to human and expect carryover. So crohn isn’t being an ass, he’s just trying to save you $, but if you like norvaline obv doesn’t hurt you so go for it. And there is a large diminishing returns factor with pump products IMO. For me citrulline and agmatine with a small amount of nitrates pretty much maximizes any pump I can get in the gym no matter what else I add. This is with the expection of pde5 inhibitors. Just cialis by itself preworkout actually works better than any NO product or combo I’ve ever used. Just gives me congestion which can get annoying if it’s a higher paced workout.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Omg dude piss off I replied to his comment of agmatine holy hell

Hence why I asked if you were talking about creatine or not. That’s what the question mark at the end of the sentence was for.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes if there is one thing to take away here it is that cellular assays do not carry over well to entire organisms...it’s only used to elucidate pathways and figure out details that might happen in certain situations but you can’t go from macrophages to human and expect carryover. So crohn isn’t being an ass, he’s just trying to save you $, but if you like norvaline obv doesn’t hurt you so go for it. And there is a large diminishing returns factor with pump products IMO. For me citrulline and agmatine with a small amount of nitrates pretty much maximizes any pump I can get in the gym no matter what else I add. This is with the expection of pde5 inhibitors. Just cialis by itself preworkout actually works better than any NO product or combo I’ve ever used. Just gives me congestion which can get annoying if it’s a higher paced workout.

Exactly. It’s not inherently accurate to extrapolate results from elderly subjects and/or disease states to healthy young subjects, forget going straight from rodents to humans, or macrophages to organisms, as you said.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Here’s a good read (with “evidence”) on norvaline:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/235003-coops-corner-2-a.html

 

[Pumpniron91]

Yes understand where your coming from thanks for providing evidence to your claim. I may just drop it do to cost it’s more in there because when I take it with other pump ingredients it seems like my pump last much longer then normal. If I can find nitrates cheap enough I’ll replace it with that
But yes cialis gives some ****in insnae pumps lol I didn’t believe it till my buddy gave me 10mg pre workout holy **** but I just worry long term effects of taking that as a pre. Plus cost/legality of obtaining it. Agmatine is something to consider I’ll look into the price for bulk

 

[Pumpniron91]

Right now I take 5g post work out with dextrose (creapure creatine monohydrate)
But if as far as the pwo id match it to the hydromax (3 grams) and take the additional 2g post workout

 

[Pumpniron91]

Holy crap I just realized I keep hitting quick reply not reply lol sorry I understand this looks hella ass backwards now hah

 

[bigdavid]

When I first heard/read about using PDE5 inhibitors preworkout I too was very skeptical. But like you said after trying it once you realize it’s deff effective and not your buddy messing with you. Did a chest/shoulder workout the other day with cialis Pre, also had some citrulline and whatever else was in the preworkout I was drinking. But half way through the workout I had to slow down because the pump in my tricep was getting slightly uncomfortable borderline painful. And this wasn’t even a direct arm workout. Reminds me of the pumps I would get with local igf-1 use. I might have to lower the dose next time or just not take any other vasodilators with it. But yes the legality of having the meds is always going to be an issue and would stop many people from using them before workouts. But it’s very easy to get cialis now a days and I don’t see the govt cracking down on the import of them like they have been doing recently with AAS raids and sting ops.

 

[Pumpniron91]

You know a legit source? Pm me
I’d like to try it again maybe just use 10mg on certain days with some caffeine
Yeah I remember the pumps being to the point where I couldn’t even flex my bicep completely

 

[Pumpniron91]

So I was looking into using agmatine but came across some info I’m not 100% on. Examine.com and a few other sites state that agmatine does not pair well with l citrulline or creatine because they compete for the same receptor or something. So basically making each other weaker. Is this true? I didn’t see any actual studies backing these claims but wonder where they draw the conclusion from. Also these 3 are pretty much stacked together in every pre work out even the one I’m currently taking lol so I don’t know how to feel about this maybe someone can drop some studies or more info to the topic

 

[muscleupcrohn]

So I was looking into using agmatine but came across some info I’m not 100% on. Examine.com and a few other sites state that agmatine does not pair well with l citrulline or creatine because they compete for the same receptor or something. So basically making each other weaker. Is this true? I didn’t see any actual studies backing these claims but wonder where they draw the conclusion from. Also these 3 are pretty much stacked together in every pre work out even the one I’m currently taking lol so I don’t know how to feel about this maybe someone can drop some studies or more info to the topic

I recall that this was for the potential neurological aspects, or at least the non-pump related aspects, of agmatine. As far as NO/pumps go, it’s fine. They say as much on their page.

 

[Pumpniron91]

So do they complement each other or should it just be one or the other ie maybe one day use agmatine in it the next citrulline

 

[muscleupcrohn]

So do they complement each other or should it just be one or the other ie maybe one day use agmatine in it the next citrulline

If you’re using them both for NO/pump/endurance related effects, it should be fine to pair them. Anecdotally, I like them both together, as do many people. There is always some point of diminishing returns for the pump, where adding more ingredients doesn’t provide much of an additional pump, but that point is very individual, and depends on how you respond to each, as well as your budget.

 

[Pumpniron91]

Agmatine seems to be fairly cheap so I’ll throw it in at 1gm and do some trial and error with it (use for 3 days then take out for 3 days) just to see if it has some type of synergy. If not I’m out 12$ lol

 

[Pumpniron91]

What about adding alpha gpc instead of alcar?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

What about adding alpha gpc instead of alcar?

You can do that. They’re sort of different, even if they have similar goals of improving focus. Alpha-GPC has research showing increased power output at 600mg, but that can be expensive: other studies have shown various benefits at 300mg, or even 200-250mg I think. Since lots of caps are 250-300mg, that’s a good place to start, and you can double up if funds permit.

 

[Pumpniron91]

You can do that. They’re sort of different, even if they have similar goals of improving focus. Alpha-GPC has research showing increased power output at 600mg, but that can be expensive: other studies have shown various benefits at 300mg, or even 200-250mg I think. Since lots of caps are 250-300mg, that’s a good place to start, and you can double up if funds permit.

I found the bulk powder but yeah it’s not as cheap so I think for now I’ll skip it maybe down the road or if I feel as tho it’s missing something I’ll try adding it to the stack it’s pretty much 1$ per gram
I didn’t know you needed 600mg tho fml that would get costly

 

[Pumpniron91]

Now just to find the nitrates

 

[Bintherduntht]

You can do that. They’re sort of different, even if they have similar goals of improving focus. Alpha-GPC has research showing increased power output at 600mg, but that can be expensive: other studies have shown various benefits at 300mg, or even 200-250mg I think. Since lots of caps are 250-300mg, that’s a good place to start, and you can double up if funds permit.

Alpha-gpc is also a great cognitive enhancer.... Just putting that out there

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Alpha-gpc is also a great cognitive enhancer.... Just putting that out there

Of course, that’s the primary purpose of pretty much all choline sources (and AChE inhibitors as well). In the context of a pre-workout, focus and power output are probably the primary benefits from choline though; I don’t know how much improved memory and/or other similar benefits would really help, at least compared to improved focus and power output.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Agmatine seems to be fairly cheap so I’ll throw it in at 1gm and do some trial and error with it (use for 3 days then take out for 3 days) just to see if it has some type of synergy. If not I’m out 12$ lol

Dang. A quick research showed me agmatine interacts with creatine and citruline...

It works against creatine

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I found the bulk powder but yeah it’s not as cheap so I think for now I’ll skip it maybe down the road or if I feel as tho it’s missing something I’ll try adding it to the stack it’s pretty much 1$ per gram
I didn’t know you needed 600mg tho fml that would get costly

You could go with 250-300mg if you’re on a budget. Maybe not 100% “ideal,” but still useful IMO. It’s not a necessity though, of course.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Of course, that’s the primary purpose of pretty much all choline sources (and AChE inhibitors as well). In the context of a pre-workout, focus and power output are probably the primary benefits from choline though; I don’t know how much improved memory and/or other similar benefits would really help, at least compared to improved focus and power output.

perfect. 100%

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Now just to find the nitrates

PM me.

 

[Bintherduntht]

PM me.

Correct. Although asking for sources about supplements? Cmon....

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Correct. Although asking for sources about supplements? Cmon....

Bulk nitrate sources can be a little hard to find. You don’t want someone cheaping out and deciding to buy potassium nitrate intended for fertilizer instead of an actual dietary supplement.

 

[Bintherduntht]

Yes I meant interactions with each other cause side effects
Not necessarily
L Theanine and l norvaline both lower blood pressure so I wasn’t sure about that but I was thinking caffeine would cancel out that effect . I’m gonna play with dosages to see what feels best what would u recommend for alcar? This mix is already getting kinda pricey so I wanted to keep it simple and not have tons of ingredients but we’ll see if it’s lacking somewhere I’ll remove or add you know

Agmatine and creatine interact

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Agmatine and creatine interact

Very likely not in any meaningful way in the context of pre-workout use.

 

[Bintherduntht]

So I was looking into using agmatine but came across some info I’m not 100% on. Examine.com and a few other sites state that agmatine does not pair well with l citrulline or creatine because they compete for the same receptor or something. So basically making each other weaker. Is this true? I didn’t see any actual studies backing these claims but wonder where they draw the conclusion from. Also these 3 are pretty much stacked together in every pre work out even the one I’m currently taking lol so I don’t know how to feel about this maybe someone can drop some studies or more info to the topic

Yes just saw the same thing