Don't be afraid of Prohormones if you are over 21 and a "Noob"

[EricMM]

I see all this advice to "skip prohormones until you run a bunch of other stuff first. Let me explain why I think that this is flawed logic.

1) Prohormones are natural in the body
2) These so called "natural" herbal testosterone boosters can have negative side effects worse than prohormones such as estrogenic compounds and even boosting testosterone without reducing aromatase.
3) Testosterone boosters have been shown in studies to not impact lean mass
4) Congress gave us DHEA's as an exemption and Progestins as an exemption for a reason, so let's enjoy the benefits!
5) Faster results in your body means faster results in your life. Don't wait to enjoy success. That's like saying "Skip the $22 an hour job and start with the $13 an hour job so you can get used to money".

If you want to start with a prohormone 1-DHEA is an amazing place to start. Nothing crazy, nothing exotic just a good basic prohormone. If you want to take a testosterone boosting agent like RISE AND SWELL (which is amazing by the way) then even better, but there is no reason to shy away from prohormones as your first supplement!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I respectfully disagree with a lot of your post. I will address it point-by-point:

1) Testosterone is natural in the body too. Does that mean that "noobs" shouldn't worry about using it either?

2) Really? Natural "test-boosters" aren't as effective as prohormones, that is clear, but their safety profiles are, as a whole, a lot more favorable as well. First, you need proper PCT with prohormones (yes, you really want to do PCT), where this isn't a concern with natural test boosters. Of course the PH will be more effective, but that's not the point of this point you made (side effects). PHs can/will cause at least some level of suppression/shutdown, and the famous study on 1-Andro noted reduced HDL (good) cholesterol, increased LDL (bad) cholesterol, etc. Now, this is manageable with proper OCT and PCT, but to say that prohormones are, as a whole, most of the time, etc, safer than natural test boosters is simply not true. There is greater "reward" with PHs, but also greater "risk."

3) True, increasing testosterone already in the normal range, but not to supraphysiological levels does not increase lean body mass, but some ingredients in test boosters have actually been shown to improve mass/body composition via other means (other MoAs besides increasing testosterone). Think ashwagandha, or forskolin's effects on cAMP. Of course, like I already said, prohormones will certainly produce greater gains in muscle/strength than a natural test booster, but that doesn't mean that natural test boosters are useless, perhaps just that they work via other MoAs besides testosterone. Again, it's risk vs reward; PHs have higher risks and higher rewards.

4) Congress hasn't exactly been known for making decisions on supplements based on extensive knowledge, and, in my opinion, something being allowed (not banned) cannot be taken to mean that it is inherently "safe," or even "safer" than something that is banned. You can't buy ephedrine as a supplement, or even just "off the shelf," so does that mean 1-Andro is safer than ephedrine? Also, looking at foreign governments for further proof of this, didn't the EU ban agmatine? Using this logic, agmatine must be dangerous, even more so than any of the prohormones that are legal in the EU. I do understand the appeal of using a "legal" PH as opposed to illegal steroids or PHs, but that should not be taken to mean that they are somehow safer ("for a reason") IMO.

5) As far as I know, when the educated/smart/experienced people here tell someone to wait a bit before using PHs, it's not because they don't think they can handle more gains at first, it's because there's a lot more that can go wrong with PH use as opposed to using nothing or using natural products. This is something that a new lifter or supplement user just isn't really prepared to handle, and they will have very solid "noob/beginner gains" anyway, so it does logically make more sense to wait at least a little bit to use PHs. It seems entirely logical to figure out your training protocol and diet/nutrition before using ANY supplements, let alone PHs/anabolics. These variables will take a little while to adjust and dial in on their own; throwing in another potent/powerful variable (PHs) into this equation for a beginner can complicate things greatly, and make it hard to determine what changes/actions/etc caused what results.

Now, all of that said, I'm not "against" prohormones, and I do think that they have their place, and with proper OCT and PCT, can be a good step-up from natural supplements without having to worry about breaking the law and/or needles. That said, let's be honest and not make things up (or at least greatly exaggerate/twist the truth/reality) for the sake of making prohormones more appealing/attractive.

I would HIGHLY advise against using a PH as your FIRST SUPPLEMENT, and I think most people here will agree. I'd definitely recommend creatine first, along with some other basic/daily ergogens (things like betaine, maybe HMB if you do high-volume/frequency, etc).

 

[Chevymetal]

It's hard not to have reservations about the majority of these products for anyone.
Many of threads I read dealing with prohormones come with the caveat that they require a pct like clomid or some other pct that seems to be some secret underground 'you can find it if you know where to look' crap. You don't just walk into CVS and pick this up; or do you? I don't know, never asked.
I also see when a new person does come in to ask about a prohormone they are hit with the 'well if you're asking then you haven't studied up enough'; makes me want to snap someone's neck when I read that. We are in a discussion forum to learn and discuss...
I still think the problem lies with many of these products not being presented to people in a simple to use format on how to use them.
Back somewhere around 2005 VaughnTrue (on another forum) laid out directions on how to take Iforce Bold 200 from week 1-8 and everything I needed during and after its use. I felt very comfortable using it because I had guidance.
If you want more people to feel comfortable using these products then help lay out a plan with everything on how to use them. This is the least you can do as a supplier of the product.

 

[vujade]

opcorn:opcorn:

 

[Nac]

Disses test boosters, then recommends one.

 

[Firreozkan]

Thanks for the info everyone! I'm 19. Should I wait till 21 or 25? Or just go for it...

 

[Nac]

Thanks for the info everyone! I'm 19. Should I wait till 21 or 25? Or just go for it...

I dont think theres a black or white here.

Do your research into the hpta/lipid/etc risks, then decide for yourself what risk you are prepared to take on. No-one can take responsibility for that decision but you.

Keep in mind a couple of generalities though:

1) the sooner you start on suppressive compounds, the sooner you are potentially looking at hormone therapy down the line. Srs. And this is linked to (2)

2) its innevitable youll move on to stronger PEDs/AAS, out of curiosity if nothing else. So dont go into this without accepting this possibility (I mean, why do most of us want to try non-natty compounds in the first place?)

3) Given (2), itll be in your interest to use SERMs for PCT. Why? A SERM is extremely efficient and 99% reliable. OTC PCTs are not, by comparison.

 

[Firreozkan]

Damn man. So you say, one cycle , most likely will surpress my natutal hormonal levels? Even the lightest compound(s) for only once? All I want is to take my physique higher as I feel like I have achieved almost everything that I can naturally and I definately am very happy with the physique as a natural, bit still, I want more... And one more thing, being on TRT and stuff, is it free? I live in Sweden. And do you inject it or take pills?

 

[Nac]

I am saying, these compounds have the capacity to diminish your natural testosterone production to some degree whilst using them; Im not saying they will definitely shut your HPTA down completely.

And, Im saying if youre like most of us (and it certainly sounds like you are), it is highly likely you will want to try even stronger compounds still. So, more risk.

Im trying to encourage you to consider big picture and longterm here, and not just look at things as "just this one cycle". It very rarely ever is.

 

[Firreozkan]

Haha thanks man. Actually, I want to start with some light things, get everything set up, feel the lighter compounds, and then go onto a real heavy compund including Deca and Tren... But I want to keep my gains long term, so I'm not sure what to take. Maybe just MK-677 or something.

 

[malin]

I see all this advice to "skip prohormones until you run a bunch of other stuff first. Let me explain why I think that this is flawed logic.

1) Prohormones are natural in the body
2) These so called "natural" herbal testosterone boosters can have negative side effects worse than prohormones such as estrogenic compounds and even boosting testosterone without reducing aromatase.
3) Testosterone boosters have been shown in studies to not impact lean mass
4) Congress gave us DHEA's as an exemption and Progestins as an exemption for a reason, so let's enjoy the benefits!
5) Faster results in your body means faster results in your life. Don't wait to enjoy success. That's like saying "Skip the $22 an hour job and start with the $13 an hour job so you can get used to money".

If you want to start with a prohormone 1-DHEA is an amazing place to start. Nothing crazy, nothing exotic just a good basic prohormone. If you want to take a testosterone boosting agent like RISE AND SWELL (which is amazing by the way) then even better, but there is no reason to shy away from prohormones as your first supplement!

Do you recommend Pct ( clomid , nolva ) after a cycle ?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Do you recommend Pct ( clomid , nolva ) after a cycle ?

Just about everyone here recommends it (as they should).

 

[AdelV]

I've been natty so long, I see no point.

Plus I like my hair, it's not worth the risk ?

Otherwise I can see why people jump on it! Cheaper than spending a fortune on natural supps too!

 

[malin]

Just about everyone here recommends it (as they should).

Well that's very interesting ( looking forward to op answer) . Let's assume that it is what he recommends then I would like him to explain to me how clomid , nolva , torem ect are natural , legal and safe for a noob ( and how the hell is noob even able to get these meds ) . Personally for me a cycle includes all the components , the ones that make you grow , the ones that protects me from a side effects and the ones that help me to get my $ith together after I got huge .
And please don't tell me that you got otc products that works like real pct .

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Don't be afraid of Prohormones if you are over 21 and a "Noob"

Well that's very interesting ( looking forward to op answer) . Let's assume that it is what he recommends then I would like him to explain to me how clomid , nolva , torem ect are natural , legal and safe for a noob ( and how the hell is noob even able to get these meds ) . Personally for me a cycle includes all the components , the ones that make you grow , the ones that protects me from a side effects and the ones that help me to get my $ith together after I got huge .
And please don't tell me that you got otc products that works like real pct .

Haha, I agree, if you're not going to get the proper OCT and especially PCT, you may as well not even run the cycle. I personally wouldn't want to have to rely exclusively on OTC PCT after a cycle, although I'm natty myself (but that doesn't mean I don't about the science/theory behind it). I mean, it's possible to run a PH cycle with only OTC PCT and still manage to keep some gains and recover/restore your natural testosterone production, but why take that risk, both in regards to losing gains and delaying (hopefully just delaying) recovery of natural testosterone? As for the safety, I don't know many people who will say that the non-OTC PCT is actually more dangerous/unsafe than the anabolics ran during the cycle, so why skimp out at the end? Regarding the sourcing, that's a good point, how does a noob know where to get the proper PCT ingredients? Yeah, you'll likely eventually be ok after a cycle using only OTC PCT, but you'll likely be giving up more gains and delaying your recovery as opposed to using "real" PCT.

 

[malin]

So I guess a message it's clear - boys don't bather with natural supplements ( some may be dangerous) , just buy our prohormones that are completely safe and legal , don't worry about pct ( who needs that hassle , or just blast and cruise , we got plenty of staff to choose from ) .
All is great , rainbows and unicorns . It is all about happy castumers , and selling a product .
Good night

 

[BCseacow83]

Well that's very interesting ( looking forward to op answer) . Let's assume that it is what he recommends then I would like him to explain to me how clomid , nolva , torem ect are natural , legal and safe for a noob ( and how the hell is noob even able to get these meds ) . Personally for me a cycle includes all the components , the ones that make you grow , the ones that protects me from a side effects and the ones that help me to get my $ith together after I got huge .
And please don't tell me that you got otc products that works like real pct .

Gentleman, surely if grandma and grandpa can figure out how to order their medication from a foreign pharmacy guys in there 20's who have basically grown up on the internet can figure it out. If you can find this site you can find PCT medications, and they are legal to import for personal use in a 90 day or less quantity. This is not to mention the ease of research sites but I prefer pharma grade myself.

 

[ManuR]

one of the dumbest posts ever..
why not take msten+sdrol+epi+halo stacked, very fast results..

with creatine etc you have far less sides.
ppl are even too dumb to monitor bp let alone get blood work done and you recommend phs.. congratz

 

[TheIronAsylum]

the stupidity is high in the op lol

 

[Slims]

Thanks for the info everyone! I'm 19.

I feel like I have achieved almost everything that I can naturally and I definately am very happy with the physique as a natural, bit still, I want more...

No offense dude but at 19 I very much doubt that you've reached your natural genetic physique limitations. Personally I'd advise that you wait another year or two whilst your endocrine system matures.

 

[malin]

Gentleman, surely if grandma and grandpa can figure out how to order their medication from a foreign pharmacy guys in there 20's who have basically grown up on the internet can figure it out. If you can find this site you can find PCT medications, and they are legal to import for personal use in a 90 day or less quantity. This is not to mention the ease of research sites but I prefer pharma grade myself.

By definition noob don't know squad , on top of that they get a message that product is safe and legal . For a lot of them it is gonna be enough to run that staff without any further research.
I'm not saying that one needs ten creatine cycles ( lol) under his belt to play with phs , but in my opinion noobs should understand what they are getting into.

 

[bigdavid]

By definition noob don't know squad , on top of that they get a message that product is safe and legal . For a lot of them it is gonna be enough to run that staff without any further research.
I'm not saying that one needs ten creatine cycles ( lol) under his belt to play with phs , but in my opinion noobs should understand what they are getting into.

And lets not forget the possibility of them thinking it is so safe that they run it indefinitely...

 

[Slims]

And lets not forget the possibility of them thinking it is so safe that they run it indefinitely...

I'm not saying or even suggesting that people should, but I know at least five people who have been/are on PH's for months. There's a PT in my gym who's been on 750mg of OL's Sup3r-Epi for over 6 months now. Two of the guys in my leg day gym are on the same run

 

[malin]

And lets not forget the possibility of them thinking it is so safe that they run it indefinitely...

Hell yea , it's government approved and safer then natural t-boosters , so why not . hahaha

 

[bigdavid]

I'm not saying or even suggesting that people should, but I know at least five people who have been/are on PH's for months. There's a PT in my gym who's been on 750mg of OL's Sup3r-Epi for over 6 months now. Two of the guys in my leg day gym are on the same run

Not sure how I suggested what you suggested? lol

 

[malin]

I'm not saying or even suggesting that people should, but I know at least five people who have been/are on PH's for months. There's a PT in my gym who's been on 750mg of OL's Sup3r-Epi for over 6 months now. Two of the guys in my leg day gym are on the same run

I bet them boys are getting swolle , good for them . We are freaks . Lol

 

[Slims]

And lets not forget the possibility of them thinking it is so safe that they run it indefinitely...

Not sure how I suggested what you suggested? lol

It was when you said about people thinking they could run them indefinitely.

They're all doing really well on their PH runs. Rob (The PT I mentioned) has said that it has improved his life massively and that he's never felt or looked better and In the five years I've known him he's never looked better. His bloods all look good too.

 

[bigdavid]

It was when you said about people thinking they could run them indefinitely.

They're all doing really well on their PH runs. Rob (The PT I mentioned) has said that it has improved his life massively and that he's never felt or looked better and In the five years I've known him he's never looked better. His bloods all look good too.

Yeah I figured it out right after I said that...I just misinterpreted what you wrote because I put an emphasis on the first part as if you didn’t agree with me. Then I realized you were just saying you didn’t agree with what you were about to report lol my bad

 

[Slims]

Yeah I figured it out right after I said that...I just misinterpreted what you wrote because I put an emphasis on the first part as if you didn’t agree with me. Then I realized you were just saying you didn’t agree with what you were about to report lol my bad

As much as I wouldn't suggest it to others, their results and experiences do make it very tempting on a personal level. I suppose if you ran it properly with all of the supports and got regular bloodwork done like the people I know do, and those bloodworks came back o.k then you possibly could run them indefinitely...Sort of like a PH TRT.

 

[bigdavid]

As much as I wouldn't suggest it to others, their results and experiences do make it very tempting on a personal level. I suppose if you ran it properly with all of the supports and got regular bloodwork done like the people I know do, and those bloodworks came back o.k then you possibly could run them indefinitely...Sort of like a PH TRT.

Did he do bloods for test and LH/FSH? Was he suppressed at all?

 

[scump]

I respectfully disagree with a lot of your post. I will address it point-by-point:

1) Testosterone is natural in the body too. Does that mean that "noobs" shouldn't worry about using it either?

2) Really? Natural "test-boosters" aren't as effective as prohormones, that is clear, but their safety profiles are, as a whole, a lot more favorable as well. First, you need proper PCT with prohormones (yes, you really want to do PCT), where this isn't a concern with natural test boosters. Of course the PH will be more effective, but that's not the point of this point you made (side effects). PHs can/will cause at least some level of suppression/shutdown, and the famous study on 1-Andro noted reduced HDL (good) cholesterol, increased LDL (bad) cholesterol, etc. Now, this is manageable with proper OCT and PCT, but to say that prohormones are, as a whole, most of the time, etc, safer than natural test boosters is simply not true. There is greater "reward" with PHs, but also greater "risk."

3) True, increasing testosterone already in the normal range, but not to supraphysiological levels does not increase lean body mass, but some ingredients in test boosters have actually been shown to improve mass/body composition via other means (other MoAs besides increasing testosterone). Think ashwagandha, or forskolin's effects on cAMP. Of course, like I already said, prohormones will certainly produce greater gains in muscle/strength than a natural test booster, but that doesn't mean that natural test boosters are useless, perhaps just that they work via other MoAs besides testosterone. Again, it's risk vs reward; PHs have higher risks and higher rewards.

4) Congress hasn't exactly been known for making decisions on supplements based on extensive knowledge, and, in my opinion, something being allowed (not banned) cannot be taken to mean that it is inherently "safe," or even "safer" than something that is banned. You can't buy ephedrine as a supplement, or even just "off the shelf," so does that mean 1-Andro is safer than ephedrine? Also, looking at foreign governments for further proof of this, didn't the EU ban agmatine? Using this logic, agmatine must be dangerous, even more so than any of the prohormones that are legal in the EU. I do understand the appeal of using a "legal" PH as opposed to illegal steroids or PHs, but that should not be taken to mean that they are somehow safer ("for a reason") IMO.

5) As far as I know, when the educated/smart/experienced people here tell someone to wait a bit before using PHs, it's not because they don't think they can handle more gains at first, it's because there's a lot more that can go wrong with PH use as opposed to using nothing or using natural products. This is something that a new lifter or supplement user just isn't really prepared to handle, and they will have very solid "noob/beginner gains" anyway, so it does logically make more sense to wait at least a little bit to use PHs. It seems entirely logical to figure out your training protocol and diet/nutrition before using ANY supplements, let alone PHs/anabolics. These variables will take a little while to adjust and dial in on their own; throwing in another potent/powerful variable (PHs) into this equation for a beginner can complicate things greatly, and make it hard to determine what changes/actions/etc caused what results.

Now, all of that said, I'm not "against" prohormones, and I do think that they have their place, and with proper OCT and PCT, can be a good step-up from natural supplements without having to worry about breaking the law and/or needles. That said, let's be honest and not make things up (or at least greatly exaggerate/twist the truth/reality) for the sake of making prohormones more appealing/attractive.

I would HIGHLY advise against using a PH as your FIRST SUPPLEMENT, and I think most people here will agree. I'd definitely recommend creatine first, along with some other basic/daily ergogens (things like betaine, maybe HMB if you do high-volume/frequency, etc).

Quoted for anyone who skips it.



We don't recommend supplements to new people anyway, they want supplements. We recommend they learn to lift and diet properly before touching **** and spending money. Not to mention to possible side effects on age and how now days everyone wants a magic pill to fix everything and skip all the hard work, they don't exist. Another issue is majority of people, whether they lack the intelligence/resources/patience just don't bother to do enough research, they think research means looking up each individual compound to see what mad gainz or sik shredz they can get.

The fact people so commonly ask the question "do you need to run PCT" shows how little they understand about what they're willing to take.

Oh yeah one other thing, these ph's you're recommending (the ones legal now) literally have zero evidence they work or are safe, other than maybe a trial funded by the company selling it to you. The supplements that we do actually recommend are backed by solid legitimate research, so we can back them with good faith, knowing not only that they work but also their long term effects and safety profile.

 

[Slims]

Did he do bloods for test and LH/FSH? Was he suppressed at all?

He gets bloods every other month(ish). I'm not too sure about his LH or FSH but as far as I saw his Liver, Kidney, Heart, Prostate, Cholesterol, lipids etc where all pretty much bang on.

 

[bigdavid]

He gets bloods every other month(ish). I'm not too sure about his LH or FSH but as far as I saw his Liver, Kidney, Heart, Prostate, Cholesterol, lipids etc where all pretty much bang on.

Well I’ll just be blunt. Does he want children? Lol

 

[scump]

He gets bloods every other month(ish). I'm not too sure about his LH or FSH but as far as I saw his Liver, Kidney, Heart, Prostate, Cholesterol, lipids etc where all pretty much bang on.

haha right so what blood test did he do to show his heart was bang on?

 

[bigdavid]

Don't be afraid of Prohormones if you are over 21 and a "Noob"

haha right so what blood test did he do to show his heart was bang on?

If he was anal could have asked for an echo w doppler. I had one done during my first cycle. Arteries seemed good and good ejection fraction (EF) etc. but that’s not really blood work lol

 

[muscleupcrohn]

As much as I wouldn't suggest it to others, their results and experiences do make it very tempting on a personal level. I suppose if you ran it properly with all of the supports and got regular bloodwork done like the people I know do, and those bloodworks came back o.k then you possibly could run them indefinitely...Sort of like a PH TRT.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should, and doesn't mean it'll work safely for other people. Seeing as TRT is a long-term (for life even (eventually you'll likely want to do something like real TRT with testosterone, preferably though a doctor), I just can't see constant/daily/indefinite use of oral PHs for 20-30+ years being good for your body.

 

[scump]

If he was anal could have asked for an echo w doppler. I had one done during my first cycle. Arteries seemed good and good ejection fraction (EF) etc. but that’s not really blood work lol

a TTE pre-cycle would definitely be helpful (also had one done) but yeah not a blood test, go full circle and get an angio if you like haha.

We can measure things with the heart but no blood test says its g2g.

 

[AntM1564]

Do you recommend Pct ( clomid , nolva ) after a cycle ?

He would probably recommend an OTC PCT from the companies his site carries, like some of the reps of said company. No SERM needed!

 

[malin]

He would probably recommend an OTC PCT from the companies his site carries, like some of the reps of said company. No SERM needed!

Yep , he already did in a different thread , where inexperienced member is asking q .

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I always go back to Dr. Rand McClean saying that around age 26 is when HPTA is finally fully matured, and less likely (not totally) to be negatively impacted. Sure, it's one guy, but he's a TRT Doctor big into the lifting scene. Why risk it? I was still a complete idiot at 26, so be safe and listen to your elders, LOL! You can do a whole crap ton with your naturally high Total and Free T (and DHT) levels in your early to mid-twenties. For the cost of one "cycle", you can get a program from Israetel, Zourdos, etc... that will keep packing it on long after those bottles are empty.

As far as Congress - well, yeah, a bunch of dumb old guys who inject the real stuff - but they only let the 2 Step DHEAs remain legal, and they probably didn't want to do even that. But 1-Andro works if the West Texas A&M study is representative - so wait until 26 and have at it (with an Rx SERM for PCT).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I always go back to Dr. Rand McClean saying that around age 26 is when HPTA is finally fully matured, and less likely (not totally) to be negatively impacted. Sure, it's one guy, but he's a TRT Doctor big into the lifting scene. Why risk it? I was still a complete idiot at 26, so be safe and listen to your elders, LOL! You can do a whole crap ton with your naturally high Total and Free T (and DHT) levels in your early to mid-twenties. For the cost of one "cycle", you can get a program from Israetel, Zourdos, etc... that will keep packing it on long after those bottles are empty.

As far as Congress - well, yeah, a bunch of dumb old guys who inject the real stuff - but they only let the 2 Step DHEAs remain legal, and they probably didn't want to do even that. But 1-Andro works if the West Texas A&M study is representative - so wait until 26 and have at it (with an Rx SERM for PCT).

Waiting until 26 does seem like the safe option really, and it gives a lot of people time to actually develop a solid base, as well as familiarize themselves with the MOST IMPORTANT aspects of bodybuilding/etc, proper training, diet, and nutrition. No amount of PH or AAS will replace these variables, especially in the long run.

As for the Texas A&M study, it did show that it "works," but, if I'm reading the right study, it concluded the following:

Therefore, athletes are strongly cautioned against using this or any other PS. Given that, in addition to being banned, this PS also contributed to marked dysfunction in nearly all of the cardiovascular and hepatic markers we examined, we conclude that the harm associated with this particular PS outweighs any potential benefit.

Now, the "banned" part is only for sport, so that's not an issue for a lot of people here, but the cardiovascular issues are certainly something to consider, especially for people that are mentioning using it a a "long-term PH alternative to TRT/HRT."

More from the study:

In the present study, participants who received 330 mg of 3β-hydroxy-5α-androst-1-en-17-one and 150 mg of 6,7-dihydroxybergamottin/day po exhibited a 40% reduction in HDL and a 30% elevation in LDL...

The following should also be noted when comparing PHs:

These changes are quite different than what has previously been reported following po PS administration. In one such study, subjects received 150 mg DHEA and 300 mg androstenedione po each day and completed an 8-wk resistance training program (12). In that study, HDL levels fell by 12%, while LDL, very low-density lipoprotein, triglyceride, and total cholesterol levels were not changed (12). The same authors reported essentially the same findings in a prior study that utilized a similar study design but had subjects ingest 300 mg/day of androstenedione alone (28). From these studies, we conclude that the lipid profile changes attributable to this PS are much worse than those that were attributed to the first generation of PS. A recent review of the AS literature reported average declines in HDL from 30 to 50% with virtually no change in LDL (43). Based on this review, the effects attributable to this PS appear to be as bad as, if not worse than, those that are attributed to AS. This is a concern because reductions in HDL and elevations in LDL are highly predictive of future atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (34). However, we must also acknowledge that lipid profile changes induced by short-term anabolic usage are known to self-resolve when anabolic usage is discontinued (23). For that reason, at the present time, we can only state that short term po PS administration causes severe alterations in both HDL and LDL, the long-term consequences of which remain to be delineated.

(bold added by me for emphasis)
http://jap.physiology.org/content/116/5/560.long

Based on this, we can say that this PH is effective, but also that it can cause suppression/shutdown (we already knew this), but also that the negative cardiovascular effects appear to be worse (more significant) than older generation PHs, and also worse than anabolic steroids. Granted, it is possible/likely that these levels will return/normalize after ceasing use, but it is concerning for people while they are using it, and long-term effects (either long-term continuous use or even repeated cycles over years) are still pretty unknown (at least we have decades of research on testosterone, so we know a bit more about how it will effect people). Basically, what these new PHs have over AAS is legality and not having to use needles; the research doesn't seem to point to them being more effective (obviously) or even safer than testosterone (AS).

 

[Slims]

Now, the "banned" part is only for sport, so that's not an issue for a lot of people here, but the cardiovascular issues are certainly something to consider, especially for people that are mentioning using it a a "long-term PH alternative to TRT/HRT."

Based on this, we can say that this PH is effective, but also that it can cause suppression/shutdown (we already knew this), but also that the negative cardiovascular effects appear to be worse (more significant) than older generation PHs, and also worse than anabolic steroids.[/QUOTE]

The negative cardiovascular effects could possibly be offset by a solid cardio training, nutrition and on cycle support plan/protocol.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Don't be afraid of Prohormones if you are over 21 and a "Noob"

The negative cardiovascular effects could possibly be offset by a solid cardio training, nutrition and on cycle support plan/protocol.

"Possibly" being the operative word. Also, do you really think a "noob" is going to know this, or how to properly account for this? Someone (not you) is making it seem like you can just pick up a PH from the shelf/web an run it no problem. It's legal, so it must be safe; that's terrible logic.

I'm not saying that the cons will always outweigh the pros for these PHs, only that they really aren't best suited for beginners/noobs or people who don't do the proper research and add the proper complimentary OCT/PCT.

 

[bigdavid]

I don’t care how much cardio you do....that is not going to put a dent in the drop in hdl

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I don’t care how much cardio you do....that is not going to put a dent in the drop in hdl

You try increasing your HDL with (moderate) alcohol consumption:

Alcohol was given as vodka in fixed amounts ranging from 0.20 to 0.81 g. kg(-1). d(-1) (mean+/-SD 0.45+/-0.19) to reflect the usual daily intake of each subject. HDL-C concentrations increased 18% with alcohol compared with the control (Wilcoxon matched-pairs test, P=0.002).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11067787
but then again regular drinking while using a PH probably isn't the best idea haha (disclaimer: don't try to use alcohol as OCT for PHs). Garlic extract (AGE/Kyolic) has also been shown to increase HDL by 10-15%. I'm not saying that it's impossible to try to at least reduce the increase in HDL from PH use, only that it (the decrease in HDL and the increase in LDL) is clearly/obviously something that should be considered and addressed on-cycle, which is something a lot of noobs/beginners probably don't even know about, forget know how to go about doing it (and not all OTC OCT are even really all that great).

 

[bigdavid]

You try increasing your HDL with (moderate) alcohol consumption:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11067787
but then again regular drinking while using a PH probably isn't the best idea haha (disclaimer: don't try to use alcohol as OCT for PHs). Garlic extract (AGE/Kyolic) has also been shown to increase HDL by 10-15%. I'm not saying that it's impossible to try to at least reduce the increase in HDL from PH use, only that it (the decrease in HDL and the increase in LDL) is clearly/obviously something that should be considered and addressed on-cycle, which is something a lot of noobs/beginners probably don't even know about, forget know how to go about doing it (and not all OTC OCT are even really all that great).

Yes and the sad part is that this is not something that presents as symptoms like a headache or aches and pains. You can’t feel your cholesterol levels or atherosclerosis. The dyslipidemia compounded with high BP is a bad recipe long term.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes and the sad part is that this is not something that presents as symptoms like a headache or aches and pains. You can’t feel your cholesterol levels or atherosclerosis. The dyslipidemia compounded with high BP is a bad recipe long term.

So this isn't true?

 

[bigdavid]

So this isn't true?

Dude. You have no idea how many times patients come into the hospital with blood sugar in the 300s and they argue with you for half an hour saying they know when they are high and they aren’t high now. I’m still trying to decide if that can be classified as a delusional disorder. Brb consulting dsm5

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I'd like to see the more important particle sizes with the lipid problems, but yeah, I always thought most anabolic drugs screwed you up a bit, you tried to minimize it with Fish, Olive Oil, etc.. and you stopped at 8 weeks and recovered for 12-16 weeks. My HDL is 90, so....

But I hear ya' !! :thumbsup:

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I'd like to see the more important particle sizes with the lipid problems, but yeah, I always thought most anabolic drugs screwed you up a bit, you tried to minimize it with Fish, Olive Oil, etc.. and you stopped at 8 weeks and recovered for 12-16 weeks. My HDL is 90, so....

But I hear ya' !! :thumbsup:

The issue is ITT we have people mentioning running these PHs long-term (as an alternative form of TRT/HRT/etc), which sounds problematic, and also people recommending these PHs for noobs/beginners who likely aren't even aware of these issues, let alone how to go about trying to minimize them.