Too Much Caffeine and Caffeine Salts

EricMM

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Guys, I just wanted to open this up for discussion since we had one young person die recently from too much caffeine (I believe he had some sort of metabolic issue but that's just my opinion). The amount of caffeine that is in these new preworkouts is getting insane. Some of them are putting in 500mg per scoop and suggesting that you take more than one scoop. That's just crazy.

Also, I am not sure what esterified caffiene would do or the multiple caffeine salts like Caffeine Malate or Caffeine Citrate. Caffeine has a 5-6 hour half life for most people which means that you wouldn't see any unique benefit to using a Malate or Citrate salt. Most of these are just window dressing since I don't see caffeine having any absorption issues and the small amount of Malate isn't enough to have a beneficial effect.

Nothing wrong with Caffeine salts (we used them because they tended to taste better) but I don't think you are getting any stimulant benefit from these. It's just more caffeine stacked on caffeine!

Be careful with the caffeine boys because while it is safe for 99.9999% of you out there, there is always that one guy who has an issue with metabolic clearance of caffeine. Work your way up slowly and don't just jump in to the caffeine pool just because all of your friends are "fine".

Caffeine can also effect sleep quality, which is way more important for muscle growth than getting a head pounding rush at the gym.

OVERTRAINING IS REAL FELLA'S! Just because you feel like a stimulant GOD in the gym doesn't mean you should always do that extra set for weeks on end!

Happy lifting.
 
JCR97

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Great post and iagree with you 500mg caffeine is way too much. Caffeine is dangerous st high dosages and we need to make sure we don't underestimate its side effects. if people need that much stim they need to take a break from the caffeine and clean up those receptors.
 
Angrypolak

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Examine suggests acute strength increases happen at 500mg+. That being said, I don't use that much personally in PWO and limit my overall intake.

Just thought it might be relevant to the discussion of high doses.

https://examine.com/supplements/caffeine/
 
muscleupcrohn

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Examine suggests acute strength increases happen at 500mg+. That being said, I don't use that much personally in PWO and limit my overall intake.

Just thought it might be relevant to the discussion of high doses.

https://examine.com/supplements/caffeine/
I recently wrote an article/guide on caffeine use, effects and doses. Studies have shown that 3mg/kg caffeine (~200mg for a 150lb person and ~270mg for a 200lb person) has improved power output, cycling performance, etc. 1 and 2 mg/kg have been found not to improve performance, so I'd recommend at least 3mg/kg for power output. 5mg/kg (340-450mg for 150-200lb people) is also a dose that has been used successfully. One study found that 6mg/kg was not significantly better than 3mg/kg in respect to improving cycling performance. With that said, I'd stick to the 3-5mg/kg range, which is ~200-340mg for a 150lb person and ~270-450mg for a 200lb person. I really don't see 500+ mg being a necessity for power output or performance at all, as that's 7.35mg/kg for a 150lb person (unnecessarily high IMO), and still a pretty high 5.55mg/kg for a 200lb person. Even if you're 250lbs, 3-5mg/kg is 339-565mg, which means you really don't even need that much to improve performance.

Here's a link to the article. It discusses the various uses of caffeine and the doses needed for them, as well as what to stack it with, and safety information:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296674
 

EricMM

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I recently wrote an article/guide on caffeine use, effects and doses. Studies have shown that 3mg/kg caffeine (~200mg for a 150lb person and ~270mg for a 200lb person) has improved power output, cycling performance, etc. 1 and 2 mg/kg have been found not to improve performance, so I'd recommend at least 3mg/kg for power output. 5mg/kg (340-450mg for 150-200lb people) is also a dose that has been used successfully. One study found that 6mg/kg was not significantly better than 3mg/kg in respect to improving cycling performance. With that said, I'd stick to the 3-5mg/kg range, which is ~200-340mg for a 150lb person and ~270-450mg for a 200lb person. I really don't see 500+ mg being a necessity for power output or performance at all, as that's 7.35mg/kg for a 150lb person (unnecessarily high IMO), and still a pretty high 5.55mg/kg for a 200lb person. Even if you're 250lbs, 3-5mg/kg is 339-565mg, which means you really don't even need that much to improve performance.

Here's a link to the article. It discusses the various uses of caffeine and the doses needed for them, as well as what to stack it with, and safety information:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296674
Awesome response! We need more people like you! Join the mind and muscle team. lol

That' being said, I think the bigger issue is finding that one kid who has a metabolic issue and drops dead because he took two scoops of a preworkout with 800mg of caffeine (I heard this exists)
 
muscleupcrohn

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Awesome response! We need more people like you! Join the mind and muscle team. lol

That' being said, I think the bigger issue is finding that one kid who has a metabolic issue and drops dead because he took two scoops of a preworkout with 800mg of caffeine (I heard this exists)
Haha thanks. In light of the plethora of research on caffeine, it just doesn't make sense to use 800mg caffeine, especially at one time. There's really no need to go over 400mg at one time IMO, and even that is pretty damn high. I don't recall seeing any PWOs with more than 500mg. I think several were in the 400+ range (plus other stims), but are you saying 800mg per serving? That's completely irresponsible and dangerous. People like that are why we can't have nice things.
 
JCR97

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Haha thanks. In light of the plethora of research on caffeine, it just doesn't make sense to use 800mg caffeine, especially at one time. There's really no need to go over 400mg at one time IMO, and even that is pretty damn high. I don't recall seeing any PWOs with more than 500mg. I think several were in the 400+ range (plus other stims), but are you saying 800mg per serving? That's completely irresponsible and dangerous. People like that are why we can't have nice things.
Exactly this
 

EricMM

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Yes, I heard one is "on the way" and yes that's a tad irresponsible.
 
cheftepesh1

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There are several I have seen ads for that boast about upwards of 700-800mg of caffeine. To me that's just crazy.
 

InItForGainz

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I recently wrote an article/guide on caffeine use, effects and doses. Studies have shown that 3mg/kg caffeine (~200mg for a 150lb person and ~270mg for a 200lb person) has improved power output, cycling performance, etc. 1 and 2 mg/kg have been found not to improve performance, so I'd recommend at least 3mg/kg for power output. 5mg/kg (340-450mg for 150-200lb people) is also a dose that has been used successfully. One study found that 6mg/kg was not significantly better than 3mg/kg in respect to improving cycling performance. With that said, I'd stick to the 3-5mg/kg range, which is ~200-340mg for a 150lb person and ~270-450mg for a 200lb person. I really don't see 500+ mg being a necessity for power output or performance at all, as that's 7.35mg/kg for a 150lb person (unnecessarily high IMO), and still a pretty high 5.55mg/kg for a 200lb person. Even if you're 250lbs, 3-5mg/kg is 339-565mg, which means you really don't even need that much to improve performance.

Here's a link to the article. It discusses the various uses of caffeine and the doses needed for them, as well as what to stack it with, and safety information:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296674
I know it would be individual dependant, but in general how much caffeine would you consider to be reasonable/responsible/safe for somebody to consume per day?
 
MARK_

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I like my caffeine, but 500 mg is a bit much. 400 is about my top end when desperate
 
muscleupcrohn

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I know it would be individual dependant, but in general how much caffeine would you consider to be reasonable/responsible/safe for somebody to consume per day?
It is going to be dependent on the user and several variables, including medical history/conditions, age, weight, tolerance, etc. From my caffeine guide thread:
Safety of Caffeine Consumption
Caffeine is likely the most often ingested pharmacologically active substance known to man. A review of published human studies concluded that moderate daily caffeine intake at a dose of up to 400mg/day (6mg/kg body weight for a 65kg human) is not associated with adverse effects including general toxicity, cardiovascular effects, effects on bones status, changes in adult behavior, or increased incidence of cancer and effects on male infertility. This review also concluded that reproductive-aged women should consume no more than 300mg/day caffeine (4.6mg/kg for a 65kg woman) [28]. With this in mind, it seems safe to say that there is really no need to go above 400mg/day caffeine for men, or 300mg/day for women, especially considering that all of the benefits of caffeine, including improving energy, focus, reaction time, cognition, and exercise performance, are all obtainable without going above these doses.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/296674-caffeine-guide.html

With that in mind, for a healthy man of at least normal/average weight, I'd say that 400mg/day would be "reasonable/responsible/safe" for regular/continuous (long term) use. Higher doses may be fine, but 400mg/day seems to be the most common/accepted "limit/threshold/etc" dose that isn't associated with any/many adverse effects. Higher amounts for shorter term may be fine/alright (>400mg on some days [acutely] have been shown to be "safe," but adverse effects seem to increase,and some benefits diminish with very high doses), but I don't know if I'd really recommend going much higher than 400mg/day chronically, although I think I may go slightly over the 400mg (but not really above 500mg) on some days.

Edit: If I had to give an amount that I'd really advise not going above, especially on a regular basis, it'd be 600mg, and that's assuming you aren't sensitive to caffeine and have a pretty high caffeine tolerance. A guide for formulations for military operations mentions 100-600mg as recommended/suitable doses, and said "the maximum content of caffeine... should not exceed 600 mg."
 

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