Need 2 Increase Body temp w/out heart rate increase, Any suggestions?

[Kurono]

What the title says! Also something that gives energy. I'm real fatigued.

I have can easily get a sky high waking pulse of 120bpm or even 140bpm during periods of adrenal fatigue. Yes it exists. Anyone's resting pulse rate shouldn't be that high! It is easy for me to get adrenal fatigue, i must rest every 4 weeks off of any exercise.

My thyroid was severely damaged during an Xray at the dentist back in 2011, it swole up greatly within that hour. This gave me a cancer diagnosis right then.

But my temperature will drop to 95.6 deg without any T3 meds. With it on , and even on 37Mcg +25mcg T4 I still can have half of the days at 97 deg. I sometimes hit 98.6 deg without any rhyme or reason, and sometimes on a lower dose of 25mcg of T3. HOwever, I can't gamble this so I'm now taking 37.5mcg. As u can see its not that simple to take more T3, as its possible to further exaggerate a higher heartrate! However, once my heart rate goes down, the T3 won't make it any higher than 66bpm, but it will make it worse when it's already high. Hope that makes sense?

So what do I need from u guys?
I need something that I can take that can raise temps by 1-2 degrees, preferably safe and legal , without any heart rate increase.
I heard Fucoxanthin can do that?
The T2 had a measureable increase of .5 to .8 degrees, i was impressed that it could do that. But then later, it gave me fatigue and made my heart pounder and contract harder (not faster but harder)
I think that's an increase in bp? It was not fun!

Also, if u have other ideas how to rid of adrenal fatigue more quickly ,let me know.

As for now, I'm good. For a week, I've been at 70-80bpm waking pulse. Not my ideal 66, but it's way better.
Any good thermos?
Thanks!

 

[Rhyno]

Bro, if ur having episodes of tachycardia, go see a doctor. U can also ask him/her about the body temp thing and see if he thinks it matters.

 

[banjobounce]

What the title says! Also something that gives energy. I'm real fatigued.

I have can easily get a sky high waking pulse of 120bpm or even 140bpm during periods of adrenal fatigue. Yes it exists. Anyone's resting pulse rate shouldn't be that high! It is easy for me to get adrenal fatigue, i must rest every 4 weeks off of any exercise.

My thyroid was severely damaged during an Xray at the dentist back in 2011, it swole up greatly within that hour. This gave me a cancer diagnosis right then.

But my temperature will drop to 95.6 deg without any T3 meds. With it on , and even on 37Mcg +25mcg T4 I still can have half of the days at 97 deg. I sometimes hit 98.6 deg without any rhyme or reason, and sometimes on a lower dose of 25mcg of T3. HOwever, I can't gamble this so I'm now taking 37.5mcg. As u can see its not that simple to take more T3, as its possible to further exaggerate a higher heartrate! However, once my heart rate goes down, the T3 won't make it any higher than 66bpm, but it will make it worse when it's already high. Hope that makes sense?

So what do I need from u guys?
I need something that I can take that can raise temps by 1-2 degrees, preferably safe and legal , without any heart rate increase.
I heard Fucoxanthin can do that?
The T2 had a measureable increase of .5 to .8 degrees, i was impressed that it could do that. But then later, it gave me fatigue and made my heart pounder and contract harder (not faster but harder)
I think that's an increase in bp? It was not fun!

Also, if u have other ideas how to rid of adrenal fatigue more quickly ,let me know.

As for now, I'm good. For a week, I've been at 70-80bpm waking pulse. Not my ideal 66, but it's way better.
Any good thermos?
Thanks!

t2 did nothing for me.cayenne may be what you are looking for. Look at mcts as we'll. also follow the above advice.

 

[john.patterson]

Most thermogenics or stimulants will increase heart rate as well. Have you ever tried any topical products? Eviscerate might be a good solution.

Tanning beds or being in a warmer climate will also help too.

 

[Wedgylx]

How about Raspberry Ketones? I'm no expert, but they definitely warm me up and I don't think they have any affect on heart rate. Its quite similar to Cayenne, but a little "Cleaner" feel to it, in my opinion.

With that being said, I almost hesitate to recommend anything with the health issues you have going on. Whatever you choose, you should put some serious research into it.

 

[toddmuelheim]

Blankets

 

[Aleksandar37]

Please go see a physician. Maybe I missed it, but why exactly do you want to raise your body temperature? Is this a fat loss thing, a comfort thing, or something else?

 

[USPlabsRep]

What the title says! Also something that gives energy. I'm real fatigued.

I have can easily get a sky high waking pulse of 120bpm or even 140bpm during periods of adrenal fatigue. Yes it exists. Anyone's resting pulse rate shouldn't be that high! It is easy for me to get adrenal fatigue, i must rest every 4 weeks off of any exercise.

My thyroid was severely damaged during an Xray at the dentist back in 2011, it swole up greatly within that hour. This gave me a cancer diagnosis right then.

But my temperature will drop to 95.6 deg without any T3 meds. With it on , and even on 37Mcg +25mcg T4 I still can have half of the days at 97 deg. I sometimes hit 98.6 deg without any rhyme or reason, and sometimes on a lower dose of 25mcg of T3. HOwever, I can't gamble this so I'm now taking 37.5mcg. As u can see its not that simple to take more T3, as its possible to further exaggerate a higher heartrate! However, once my heart rate goes down, the T3 won't make it any higher than 66bpm, but it will make it worse when it's already high. Hope that makes sense?

So what do I need from u guys?
I need something that I can take that can raise temps by 1-2 degrees, preferably safe and legal , without any heart rate increase.
I heard Fucoxanthin can do that?
The T2 had a measureable increase of .5 to .8 degrees, i was impressed that it could do that. But then later, it gave me fatigue and made my heart pounder and contract harder (not faster but harder)
I think that's an increase in bp? It was not fun!

Also, if u have other ideas how to rid of adrenal fatigue more quickly ,let me know.

As for now, I'm good. For a week, I've been at 70-80bpm waking pulse. Not my ideal 66, but it's way better.
Any good thermos?
Thanks!

capsimax

 

[GHopkins]

What you maybe looking for is anacardic acid. There are no supplements with this, but it occurs in cashew nuts. Buy a bag and grab these as a snack when your energy level drops. Have with some dried fruit handy because cashew can get boring after a while. Also green tea with the cashews adds some effect better than coffee.
Upside of cashews, they are cheap and have no negative sides. The downside is the effect is mild, and may only help.
Risk verses reward looks positive.

 

[Aleksandar37]

What you maybe looking for is anacardic acid. There are no supplements with this, but it occurs in cashew nuts. Buy a bag and grab these as a snack when your energy level drops. Have with some dried fruit handy because cashew can get boring after a while. Also green tea with the cashews adds some effect better than coffee.
Upside of cashews, they are cheap and have no negative sides. The downside is the effect is mild, and may only help.
Risk verses reward looks positive.

I thought that primarily occurs in the shells which are toxic, no?

 

[GHopkins]

The concentration is higher in the shells, but is present in smaller amounts in the nuts. The big nasty in the shells is Urushoil. This is a resin that can be used in brake linings and epoxies.

 

[Kurono]

I'm subscribed, but I didn't receive any notices. Hey, thanks for replying! I'll check it out.
Seems pretty safe the way it sounds, so I won't have an issue trying it.

And yes, Cashews are pretty dangerous to eat before they are carefully deshelled. Very toxic

EDIT: Nm, i see u said there' no supplements. I will find fitting cashews into my macros a bit harder due to the high carb content and fat ratio. Is one serving a day enough?

 

[cheftepesh1]

Look into thermogenics without caffeine or a topical. Can also look at stuff like cayenne or other capsicum type products.

 

[HIT4ME]

As others has said, and asked - you should see a doctor and why do you want to raise your temperature exactly? There is some natural variation in body temps among people and it is kind if a myth that we should all be 98.6 degrees.

Plus, you are having heart issues, which you should have diagnosed. Don't just take a doctors word either. I know people with issues that went to 5-6 different cardiologists and they all said everything was fine, but they knew things were not right and finally they found someone who was willing to do more tests and get invasive, and they found some big issues.

Having said that, have you had your cortisol levels tested? Are they high? Low? How is stress in your life and how do you generally deal with stress?

 

[Aleksandar37]

As others has said, and asked - you should see a doctor and why do you want to raise your temperature exactly? There is some natural variation in body temps among people and it is kind if a myth that we should all be 98.6 degrees.

Plus, you are having heart issues, which you should have diagnosed. Don't just take a doctors word either. I know people with issues that went to 5-6 different cardiologists and they all said everything was fine, but they knew things were not right and finally they found someone who was willing to do more tests and get invasive, and they found some big issues.

Having said that, have you had your cortisol levels tested? Are they high? Low? How is stress in your life and how do you generally deal with stress?

Thank you for reinforcing this! Ignores requests for him to see a doctor...I'll just eat some cashews lol.

 

[Kurono]

How do you guys know that I don't go see a doctor?
Some of you guys didn't at all read.

as I've said in my original post the cause is THYROID, but you guys must have missed it. You even quoted it a few times.

The thyroid controls EVERYTHING. Heart rate, fatigue, one can be easily agitated with a badly damaged thyroid.

My intention is to NOT be so dependent on pharmacy drugs, but find a way for my body to heal naturally, but ofc no doctor will know a thing about natural cures.

Theres people out there who reduced their meds on several diseases like Diabetes, so why not having a way to reduce T3 meds?

I would like to be able to increase my body temps without having to increase more meds, but anyways it was decided to then up my T3 by another 12.5 mcg. So far, my body has tolerated it well as the dosage is divided.

Right now, thankfully for the past several days my heart rate has returned to normal at 66-70bpm waking.
Also it seems my body can't handle a drop in calories below 1000 (temporarily), that triggered the high heart rate. I was doing some fasting, but thats not a good idea for me even if for religious reasons.

Doc says I exercise too much and eat too little. Well yea, I'm reverse dieting now.
The problem with thyroid is that it's extremely hard to lose weight, and u so only drastic cutting allowed some weight to be dropped. Not like a few yrs ago where I'd eat like a king and still lose.

I don't really feel like putting my entire medical history, but thats the jist of it.

I've also talked to enough Endocrinologists in person and also info online that your temp should be within .9 to 1 degree flex. It should NEVER go down to 95 degrees lol that is considered hypothermia.
Before Thyroid disease, my temp was 99 max to 97.8 range.

Anyways, thanks and I'll try more of those things you guys listed. :yup:

 

[Kurono]

As others has said, and asked - you should see a doctor and why do you want to raise your temperature exactly? There is some natural variation in body temps among people and it is kind if a myth that we should all be 98.6 degrees.

Plus, you are having heart issues, which you should have diagnosed. Don't just take a doctors word either. I know people with issues that went to 5-6 different cardiologists and they all said everything was fine, but they knew things were not right and finally they found someone who was willing to do more tests and get invasive, and they found some big issues.

Having said that, have you had your cortisol levels tested? Are they high? Low? How is stress in your life and how do you generally deal with stress?

I already answered this in my original post "My thyroid was severely damaged during an Xray at the dentist back in 2011," >.>

As stated the THYROID controls Heart rate. I have nothing wrong with my heart.:lmao:

 

[HIT4ME]

How do you guys know that I don't go see a doctor?

as I've said in my original post the cause is THYROID, but you guys must have missed it. You even quoted it a few times.

The thyroid controls EVERYTHING. Heart rate, fatigue, one can be easily agitated with a badly damaged thyroid.

My intention is to NOT be so dependent on pharmacy drugs, but find a way for my body to heal naturally, but ofc no doctor will know a thing about natural cures.

Theres people out there who reduced their meds on several diseases like Diabetes, so why not having a way to reduce T3 meds?

I would like to be able to increase my body temps without having to increase more meds, but anyways it was decided to then up my T3 by another 12.5 mcg. So far, my body has tolerated it well as the dosage is divided.

Right now, thankfully for the past several days my heart rate has returned to normal at 66-70bpm waking.
Also it seems my body can't handle a drop in calories below 1000, that triggered the high heart rate. I was doing some fasting, but thats not a good idea for me even if for religious reasons.

I don't really feel like putting my entire medical history, but thats the jist of it.

Anyways, thanks and I'll try more of those things you guys listed.

Yeah. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with that.

Anyway, good luck with the stuff that has been mentioned.

I know stuff can come out wrong on here, and I know that we all tend to think other people are stupid when we lack the information to understand their views, so I am gonna let it slide and try to help a little...

Agai., not sure why you are so co cerned about body temp. Unless it is causing some issue you haven't mentioned, which is why two of us asked, because we may be taking the wrong approach.

Having said that, have you had your cortisol levels checked? Other hormones? Cortisol comes to mind first because it has a relatively obvious role in the function of T3. Too high or too low and T3 will be less or ineffective. It may be worth getting a hormone panel.

Such low body temps.on 37.5 mg may mean nothing or it may mean you have some other issue with T3 getting into cells.

 

[HIT4ME]

I already answered this in my original post "My thyroid was severely damaged during an Xray at the dentist back in 2011," >.>

As stated the THYROID controls Heart rate. I have nothing wrong with my heart.:lmao:

Lol, you need to work on your reading comprehension. I understand you have thyroid issues. So why do you think you need to get your body temperature up? Do you believe it indicates something? Because it is far from definitive of anything.

It is fairly pathetic to come somewhere asking for help and then act like people are stupid for asking questions. I will give you a tip. If you walk into a doctors office and he doesn't ask you a question and just says, "take this"...go find another doctor.

 

[Kurono]

Ok let's put it this way. With a low functioning thyroid, a host of things happen, here's a few things:

On days where I decide, oh crap I forgot to take my T3 or weeks where it was suggested to try only use 25mcg
1. I could only take a dump every of days
2. Would be nice not to need a sweater at 70 degrees.
3. Would be nice not to be feel overheated at only 80 degrees
4. Severe brain fog
5. Eat like a nazi camp girl to maintain weight

This is only 4 reasons out of 20 that happen when the body's temp is not correct.

BUT RIGHT NOW with a higher dose, I'm fine at 98 degrees . I just hope I don't get use to it and require more. That's the nightmare I don't want to have. I can't afford to pay MORE for these meds, they cost me a lot!

Cortisol is on the lowest end of the morning scale, I have only 7.2 which is why I have also brain fog on low dose t3.
I can't test afternoon cortisol which is also very important and I can't afford a full cortisol test and it's not covered with my insurance. Thats all i can get right now. I read that low cortisol in morning and high in afternoon is reverse than normal.

If even u had to suffer just ONE of those reasons, you will see why thyroid heat is most important.

Doc makes no comment about cortisol level,
Again, been through dozens of doctors in my price/insurance range..

Actually, almost every doctor I met just says take this, take that and rush me out of the door.. Thats why they have been pretty bad.

Yeah. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with that.

Anyway, good luck with the stuff that has been mentioned.

I know stuff can come out wrong on here, and I know that we all tend to think other people are stupid when we lack the information to understand their views, so I am gonna let it slide and try to help a little...

Agai., not sure why you are so co cerned about body temp. Unless it is causing some issue you haven't mentioned, which is why two of us asked, because we may be taking the wrong approach.

Having said that, have you had your cortisol levels checked? Other hormones? Cortisol comes to mind first because it has a relatively obvious role in the function of T3. Too high or too low and T3 will be less or ineffective. It may be worth getting a hormone panel.

Such low body temps.on 37.5 mg may mean nothing or it may mean you have some other issue with T3 getting into cells.

 

[HIT4ME]

Ok let's put it this way. With a low functioning thyroid, a host of things happen, here's a few things:

On days where I decide, oh crap I forgot to take my T3 or weeks where it was suggested to try only use 25mcg
1. I could only take a dump every of days
2. Would be nice not to need a sweater at 70 degrees.
3. Would be nice not to be feel overheated at only 80 degrees
4. Severe brain fog
5. Eat like a nazi camp girl to maintain weight

This is only 4 reasons out of 20 that happen when the body's temp is not correct.

BUT RIGHT NOW with a higher dose, I'm fine at 98 degrees . I just hope I don't get use to it and require more. That's the nightmare I don't want to have. I can't afford to pay MORE for these meds, they cost me a lot!

Cortisol is on the lowest end of the morning scale, I have only 7.2 which is why I have also brain fog on low dose t3.
I can't test afternoon cortisol which is also very important and I can't afford a full cortisol test and it's not covered with my insurance. Thats all i can get right now. I read that low cortisol in morning and high in afternoon is reverse than normal.

If even u had to suffer just ONE of those reasons, you will see why thyroid heat is most important.

Ok, now we are making progress. What is your caffeine intake like? I am assumimg you keep caffeine and stimulants low because of the tachycardia? How do you sleep?

Do you take a multi-vitamin? What is your diet like? What types of fats do you eat?

The sleep issue is big because most people release cortisol to wake up in the morning...low cortisol at this time I dicates possible adrenal fatigue, which could be a symptom of the low T3 but sometimes the symptoms end up contributing to the cause....

 

[Kurono]

Ok, now we are making progress. What is your caffeine intake like? I am assumimg you keep caffeine and stimulants low because of the tachycardia? How do you sleep?

Do you take a multi-vitamin? What is your diet like? What types of fats do you eat?

The sleep issue is big because most people release cortisol to wake up in the morning...low cortisol at this time I dicates possible adrenal fatigue, which could be a symptom of the low T3 but sometimes the symptoms end up contributing to the cause....

My intake of caffeine is non existent. I can't tolerate it well anymore. I used to be able to do those ECA stacks back in the hey day many years ago.
But the last few years I can do 50mg of Caffeine at most. I love coffee, but I avoid it.

At the time of me posting , the "Adrenal Fatigue" as you say was pretty bad, but I did a few things to calm it down.

Day1: took 2 days off the gym.
Day 2 after the first post
Drink a whole Lemon in water (reduced heart rate from 120 to 80 within an hour) and didn't climb again
Day 3: Same, but now heart rate at 70 at day . Started reverse dieting, 40-100 calories added to daily intake, each week increase.
Day 4 until today: upped T3 to 37.5, also increased body temp

About the lemon water , heard that synthetic vitamin C may fatigue adrenals so i did this instead n I was willing to try anything. It seemed to work! And I'm good now. I do take Kirkland Multi which has B vitamins , about only a dozen , a small list. I also take some wheatgrass powder and only recently ditched taking Synth Absorbic acid /VIT C.

Why do people say Adrenal Fatigue doesn't exist (these are doctors) I'm pretty sure I had some classic symptoms that went on for a good full month.

About sleep. I try to get enough, but it's not all in a row. I go to bed at Midnight, My cat wakes me up at 5:45 to feed her, so I feed her then go back to sleep until 6:30 and get to the gym after morning routine.

It seems a lot easier to get panic, anxiety, stress, fatigue after the thyroid damage incident now. Also a lot easier to get startled, and morning alarms will jack my heart rate for a long time until recovery.

Seriously , i really wished the medical system was a lot better. I'm still waiting on approval for dental , I'm on some waiting list for that.
And there's too many complications why doctors don't want to help. If I was really wealthy sure they'd listen.
I was quoted $10,000 for thyroid removal that didn't guarantee use of my vocal chords, so I said NO.

I really apologize if anything comes off wrong? It seems the tone is real serious here. But hopefully u can see thats some indication of thyroid related stress. Also, when people tell me to see doctors, it's that i've been to so many and none want to even talk to me, to only wish to remove my thyroid. So that triggered me, just angry with doctors but it seems I was getting frustrated with people who are trying to help, again my apologies.

 

[HIT4ME]

My intake of caffeine is non existent. I can't tolerate it well anymore. I used to be able to do those ECA stacks back in the hey day many years ago.
But the last few years I can do 50mg of Caffeine at most. I love coffee, but I avoid it.

At the time of me posting , the "Adrenal Fatigue" as you say was pretty bad, but I did a few things to calm it down.

Day1: took 2 days off the gym.
Day 2 after the first post
Drink a whole Lemon in water (reduced heart rate from 120 to 80 within an hour) and didn't climb again
Day 3: Same, but now heart rate at 70 at day . Started reverse dieting, 40-100 calories added to daily intake, each week increase.
Day 4 until today: upped T3 to 37.5, also increased body temp

About the lemon water , heard that synthetic vitamin C may fatigue adrenals so i did this instead n I was willing to try anything. It seemed to work! And I'm good now. I do take Kirkland Multi which has B vitamins , about only a dozen , a small list. I also take some wheatgrass powder and only recently ditched taking Synth Absorbic acid /VIT C.

Why do people say Adrenal Fatigue doesn't exist (these are doctors) I'm pretty sure I had some classic symptoms that went on for a good full month.

About sleep. I try to get enough, but it's not all in a row. My cat wakes me up at 5:45 to feed her, so I feed her then go back to sleep until 6:30 and get to the gym.

It seems a lot easier to get panic, anxiety, stress, fatigue after the thyroid damage incident now. Also a lot easier to get startled, and morning alarms will jack my heart rate for a long time until recovery.

Seriously , i really wished the medical system was a lot better. I'm still waiting on approval for dental , I'm on some waiting list for that.
And there's too many complications why doctors don't want to help. If I was really wealthy sure they'd listen.
I was quoted $10,000 for thyroid removal that didn't guarantee use of my vocal chords, so I said NO.

I really apologize if anything comes off wrong? It seems the tone is real serious here. But hopefully u can see thats some indication of thyroid related stress.

Yeah, I hear ya on the medical system. It has become too complex. I know wealthy people with issues who have offered to pay cash for help and doctors won't take it because they can only do what insurance companies authorize or they won't get paid at all.

And - I get you are stressed over this. People here all want to help and we really don't understand your situation or your assumptions or even who you are, so while some of our questions .at be wrong or seem stupid, you never know where they wi take us.

I also realize that the stress and your issues themselves can create harsh responses...i mean, if you look at adrenal fatigue...anxietu, defensiveness, etc. Are right in the list lol.

When you sleep, do you wake up a lot? My guess is you don't have trouble falling asleep but then you wake up throughout the night?

Not saying these are the right answers just yet...but a LOT of us are supposedly magnesium deficient. Magnesium can be relaxing and help with sleep, etc. - I would take some big doses for a week or so ...especially before bed. See if that helps get your cortisol response normalized?

Another option is to talk to your doctor about a corticosteroid like hydrocortisone...it will help get your cortisol levels back up.

Low cortisol will prevent T3 from getting into cells effectively and it will be much less effective.

Also, I know this may not be what you want to hear, but like I said - cause and effect can be circular....maybe the heart thing has a little to do with the anxiety?

Have you ever used forskolin? How do you tolerate pain?

 

[HIT4ME]

7-Keto and Oleuropein help increase T3 and have been show. To be helpful in Reynauds...but both also seem to lower cortisol levels. They may be a good future treatment, but I think you need to get cortisol levels normalized first...unfortunately most of us tend to try to reduce cortisol.

 

[Kurono]

Stress:
It seems every type of health problem that was under control, tiny is now a major problem after thyroid damage, including stress. Nothing ever bothered me! It's not that I have work related stress, but my adrenals seem to get triggered for no good reason and cause me to be flustered . But lol, I think my Mom is much worse, the smallest things are level 10 world ending catastrophes, but she doesn't have a thyroid condition, or maybe she does?

-Sleep:
I have no problem sleeping all day and all night. I mean, I go to sleep like a log and stay like a log. I hate that i've lost my entire 30s in dreamland.
I don't wake in the middle of the night unless I gotta pee, so I learned not to drink water too late at night. I think even for average Joes, that's a good idea not to drink water too right before bed?

-Magnesium:
I'm also taking that Calcium/Mag/Zinc supp from Costco by Kirkland. But If people are saying i'm deficient in this and that, but I'm taking a bunch of stuff, then I'm really doubting a lot of synthetic supplements. Especially since after drinking lemon water for Vit C was a huge difference on my heart rate. My Mother said she drinks lemon water to calm a rapid pulse, so that's why I tried that.
I also take Zinc Picolinate separately. I mean I could be taking enough Mag, but not absorbing synth products? Maybe?

Cortisone:
I'll talk to the doc, but she'll probably refer me out to someone else with deaf ears. Actually, my current family doc I only got 2 months ago. But will she will actually listen to me, it's just that her expertise is limited.

Pain:
My tolerance to pain is quite limited after the incident. I used to have a much better pain tolerance and now it seems I'm sore for over week, hardly recover to my next workout and everythng else recovers as slow as snails.

Btw, I got my bf% down to 10% from 200 lbs to 140 and was in peak condition then the thyroid incident hit me. I know that's pretty scrawny, but hey U have to diet down before u can actually get buff.

Currently, my bf storage is nuts. I'm pretty skinny in my limbs, but I have a big fat belly. I'm only 156 lbs but a 39" belly. Well I'm down from 175 though. As u can see, I got desperate to reduce my calories ..as i kept losing weight but my belly did not budge. That desperation on Keto triggered Adrenal Fatigue. I'm currently taking what Layne Norton had said on reverse dieting and trying to heal my body.

Anxiety: I've learned about a half a year ago what this was and that I had it. It wasn't a big deal before thyroid damage, as I said, any small problem was under control. but blew up after. After kindle audio, I learned I could fix it through self therapy.
It's a self destroying cycle though, the anxiety increases heart rate, the anxiety increases the heart rate due to new circumstances that your mind has created.

Yeah, I hear ya on the medical system. It has become too complex. I know wealthy people with issues who have offered to pay cash for help and doctors won't take it because they can only do what insurance companies authorize or they won't get paid at all.

And - I get you are stressed over this. People here all want to help and we really don't understand your situation or your assumptions or even who you are, so while some of our questions .at be wrong or seem stupid, you never know where they wi take us.

I also realize that the stress and your issues themselves can create harsh responses...i mean, if you look at adrenal fatigue...anxietu, defensiveness, etc. Are right in the list lol.

When you sleep, do you wake up a lot? My guess is you don't have trouble falling asleep but then you wake up throughout the night?

Not saying these are the right answers just yet...but a LOT of us are supposedly magnesium deficient. Magnesium can be relaxing and help with sleep, etc. - I would take some big doses for a week or so ...especially before bed. See if that helps get your cortisol response normalized?

Another option is to talk to your doctor about a corticosteroid like hydrocortisone...it will help get your cortisol levels back up.

Low cortisol will prevent T3 from getting into cells effectively and it will be much less effective.

Also, I know this may not be what you want to hear, but like I said - cause and effect can be circular....maybe the heart thing has a little to do with the anxiety?

Have you ever used forskolin? How do you tolerate pain?

 

[Kurono]

7-Keto and Oleuropein help increase T3 and have been show. To be helpful in Reynauds...but both also seem to lower cortisol levels. They may be a good future treatment, but I think you need to get cortisol levels normalized first...unfortunately most of us tend to try to reduce cortisol.

I might have to coax my doc to take an afternoon cortisol test . I mean i might have to bug her on it and just use online data to interpret my results.
I'm guessing I'll see improvement though compared to my last test last month.

Those supps sound pretty good!
Should I prioritize BCAA since I mentioned recovery is kinda poor?

How about Raspberry Ketones? I'm no expert, but they definitely warm me up and I don't think they have any affect on heart rate. Its quite similar to Cayenne, but a little "Cleaner" feel to it, in my opinion.

With that being said, I almost hesitate to recommend anything with the health issues you have going on. Whatever you choose, you should put some serious research into it.

I tried this back in the past before when I had no problems, and 2 months using it, I saw no changes in Bf% maybe i'll try it again? It's a completely different time period now.

 

[HIT4ME]

The issue with magnesium is that calcium competes with it for absorption. If you become deficient, you need to take magnesium away from calcium.

I am taking a guess over the internet without any REAL evidence...like a test...that magnesium may help..you may not be deficient at all. Taking it shouldn't cause any significant downside though so it is easy to test.

Black licorice also supposedly helps increase cortisol.

I think BCAAs are fine...but won't help your issues.

Also...you mention your mom has some bad strategies...blowing things up. Is it possible that she may have some bad habits mentally that you have adopted? I know I've gotten some bad (and some good) habits from my parents without ever realizing it. It may be that you have a couple different issues and there isn't just one simple solution? I.e. - general tsau's thyroid, low cortisol, anxiety, etc...and they all feed into each other.

Meditation may also be a healthy strategy. I know it has been shown to have a strong impact on Alzheimer's in studies...I.always thought it was a waste, but turns out I probably won't remember that I thought that when I get old.

 

[Kurono]

The issue with magnesium is that calcium competes with it for absorption. If you become deficient, you need to take magnesium away from calcium.

I am taking a guess over the internet without any REAL evidence...like a test...that magnesium may help..you may not be deficient at all. Taking it shouldn't cause any significant downside though so it is easy to test.

Black licorice also supposedly helps increase cortisol.

I think BCAAs are fine...but won't help your issues.

Also...you mention your mom has some bad strategies...blowing things up. Is it possible that she may have some bad habits mentally that you have adopted? I know I've gotten some bad (and some good) habits from my parents without ever realizing it. It may be that you have a couple different issues and there isn't just one simple solution? I.e. - general tsau's thyroid, low cortisol, anxiety, etc...and they all feed into each other.

Meditation may also be a healthy strategy. I know it has been shown to have a strong impact on Alzheimer's in studies...I.always thought it was a waste, but turns out I probably won't remember that I thought that when I get old.

Tests like this are hard to order. I can only get basic tests. Should i just go ahead and order some magnesium only supps? Which do u recommend?

Funny thing is my Mom has been meditating literally not missing a single day since 30 yrs, but is the biggest ticking time bomb u will ever meet

but I really don't know how to meditate, how long etc. maybe I need more patience it? (IRONY i know)

Also, do u feel cortisol has contributed to my belly blowing up? 39" also some of that is AIR from massive bloating. Everything bloats me, especially egg whites. Maybe MRM whey changed their formula? How long does it take stop eating a certain food to find out?

I always get bloated after eating literally anything. Taking pro/pre biotics too. I didn't have it when I was at 10% bf, but I was in a different country.

btw, Is that Mike Mentzer in your DP pic? Glad u like the golden era/non bloated looking BB'ers.

EDIT: 1 more question. If i get my cortisol levels recovered, will my Testosterone increase sufficiently? Currently at 659, but I tested when I was on a <1000 keto diet and was at peak of cortisol issues. perhaps I'd test higher today, but want to ensure I could get to 800 naturally. Possible?

 

[HIT4ME]

Tests like this are hard to order. I can only get basic tests. Should i just go ahead and order some magnesium only supps? Which do u recommend?

Funny thing is my Mom has been meditating literally not missing a single day since 30 yrs, but is the biggest ticking time bomb u will ever meet

but I really don't know how to meditate, how long etc. maybe I need more patience it? (IRONY i know)

Also, do u feel cortisol has contributed to my belly blowing up? 39" also some of that is AIR from massive bloating. Everything bloats me, especially egg whites. Maybe MRM whey changed their formula? How long does it take stop eating a certain food to find out?

I always get bloated after eating literally anything. Taking pro/pre biotics too. I didn't have it when I was at 10% bf, but I was in a different country.

btw, Is that Mike Mentzer in your DP pic? Glad u like the golden era/non bloated looking BB'ers.

EDIT: 1 more question. If i get my cortisol levels recovered, will my Testosterone increase sufficiently? Currently at 659, but I tested when I was on a <1000 keto diet and was at peak of cortisol issues. perhaps I'd test higher today, but want to ensure I could get to 800 naturally. Possible?

I am not sure that any of what I've said is "the answer" - but it hopefully gives you some paths to explore. It is a real pain to get actual tests done...so it's hard without a doctor. Honestly, you may want to try to find new doctors. Good doctors are very very difficult to find. I think part of the issue is that we go to a general practitioner (which is becoming hard to find in itself) and people look at them and expect them to know all kinds of things; but they only know what they know. The more diseases you learn about, the more it occurs to you that there is NO WAY a doctor could know about them all. I saw one person on another forum bash a doctor because they didn't know about his specific disease, or what it even was - and I thought to myself that it is kind of a unique disease and no one would know it if they didn't have it. But once we become aware of it, we expect any good doctor should know about it. It just doesn't work that way. Finding a doctor who knows what you need can be a real challenge in itself...so while I understand your frustration with people saying to go to doctors and you've been trying that, it may still be good advice, as frustrating as it is to hear. I mean, who wants to keep doing things only to get the same outcome?

High cortisol and insulin resistance are both associated (at least in popular culture) with larger waistlines. Cortisol, however, isn't "evil" - it is a necessary and useful hormone and sometimes "low" levels can create a lot of the same issues that "high" levels are accused of causing.

I would try some magnesium, although you don't seem to show many signs of deficiency that you've mentioned. Sleep issues, muscle cramps and weakness, anxiety, etc. - are the typical signs. But given the lack of other sides the anxiety is likely unrelated to magnesium. Still, it can't hurt. There's a lot out there saying this version or another is better, but even the oxide versions have studies showing they are absorbed (especially with consistent use) pretty well. Large doses (usually around 2 grams) can cause a laxative effect, so be careful of that. I would give it a shot, but I don't think you need to get anything expensive.

As far as the bloat, that sounds like a digestion issue. You may just have trouble breaking down proteins. A probiotic (Gut Health is great), digestive enzymes, and maybe just dropping things out of your diet for a couple weeks to test is a good idea. I don't know how long it will take, but I would think a couple weeks will tell you if things are getting better or not. It sounds like you're already on a probiotic I know - but they don't all work the same. I've tried about a dozen and only maybe 2 of them had any real effect for me and my gf.

As far as the testosterone - 659 isn't too bad. That sounds pretty normal, especially considering the issues you've had. It's hard to say if that will go up or down - but those levels do fluctuate, so who knows?

And yes - Menzer. I am a bit of a HIT disciple. I like the way Mentzer thought about things, it's rare in this world. Granted, his theories didn't exactly build the physique he had in that picture - but he also had one of the best physiques ever. Elliot Hulse said it best when he said that Mentzer just looked like he could Fck Sh1t Up.

 

[Angrypolak]

Lots of great advice in here. One thing I'll add is temperature tracking can be very useful.

Wild fluctuations across can indicate adrenal/cortisol. Steady-state but low temps can indicate thyroid. Low temps that fluctuate means you need to work on both.

Take you temp 3 hours after waking, 3 hours after that, and again 3 hours after that.

You'll see my own tracking on my "health" app on my iPhone. See how it fluctuated and was low early and over time its both increased and gotten steadier?

 

[BCseacow83]

Did you doctor test your FREE T3 and Free T4, and possibly even Reverse T3? Sometimes they only do TSH and as long as it is in range your are "good." I have been very desperate and frustrated in the past with my own issues and very rarely does trying one thing after another result is success. I would start out with telling the doctor you are frustrated and really need her/him to dig into this. You don't have to be pushy so much as insistent.

What are all your labs showing? Can you post up all blood work you have had done since the Xray at the Dentist?

 

[HIT4ME]

Did you doctor test your FREE T3 and Free T4, and possibly even Reverse T3? Sometimes they only do TSH and as long as it is in range your are "good." I have been very desperate and frustrated in the past with my own issues and very rarely does trying one thing after another result is success. I would start out with telling the doctor you are frustrated and really need her/him to dig into this. You don't have to be pushy so much as insistent.

What are all your labs showing? Can you post up all blood work you have had done since the Xray at the Dentist?

Good questions - I was thinking the reverse T3 thing, but I'm not totally convinced it is real or not real yet....I think it is pretty real though, just not confident in it.

 

[HIT4ME]

Plus - I guess what was throwing me is that, rT3 would prevent T3 from working, which the case was presented as T3 IS working - his temp has come up, albeit unreliably, and too much T3 makes his heart race. However, maybe those are assumptions ....maybe the anxiety and stress and low cortisol is more of an issue in that regard and the effects are just being attributed to T3 working...

 

[Angrypolak]

Plus - I guess what was throwing me is that, rT3 would prevent T3 from working, which the case was presented as T3 IS working - his temp has come up, albeit unreliably, and too much T3 makes his heart race. However, maybe those are assumptions ....maybe the anxiety and stress and low cortisol is more of an issue in that regard and the effects are just being attributed to T3 working...

I'm learning myself but your logic seems sound here. The best way to tell is to run a 4-point saliva test for cortisol. It's about $150 to purchase a kit online. Outside of that the temperature tracking has been good for me.

I did the saliva test up front. The big fluctuations in my own temp tracking I shared aligned with poor saliva results. I added a probiotic (2x a day), lugols iodine (morning), magnesium (200mg 3x a day), NAC (for raised liver values), and melatonin (at night). I focused on getting 7+ hours sleep. I cut out caffeine, dairy, sugar and polyunsaturated fats (as much as possible). My results are in the graph. I went from big fluctuations and a low 97 average to a more stable measurement and results at 98+.

I plan to stick with this for 45 days or so. Then I'll start cutting back on some supplements while continuing to track temps.

OP, I've also read that licorice, boron, and adrenal cortex can raise cortisol. Zinc and dhea (and metabolites like 7-dhea) can lower it. So you could try using those in am and pm respectively to get your cycle back on track.

 

[HIT4ME]

I'm learning myself but your logic seems sound here. The best way to tell is to run a 4-point saliva test for cortisol. It's about $150 to purchase a kit online. Outside of that the temperature tracking has been good for me.

I did the saliva test up front. The big fluctuations in my own temp tracking I shared aligned with poor saliva results. I added a probiotic (2x a day), lugols iodine (morning), magnesium (200mg 3x a day), NAC (for raised liver values), and melatonin (at night). I focused on getting 7+ hours sleep. I cut out caffeine, dairy, sugar and polyunsaturated fats (as much as possible). My results are in the graph. I went from big fluctuations and a low 97 average to a more stable measurement and results at 98+.

I plan to stick with this for 45 days or so. Then I'll start cutting back on some supplements while continuing to track temps.

OP, I've also read that licorice, boron, and adrenal cortex can raise cortisol. Zinc and dhea (and metabolites like 7-dhea) can lower it. So you could try using those in am and pm respectively to get your cycle back on track.

Good strategy for general health even...so I can't see why it wouldn't be worth trying anyway. I often wonder how much circadian rhythms effect us...it may be a lot more than we realize. And with all the artificial light and electronics and chronic stress we face in modern life, it is easily throw out of whack. I think even 50 years ago if you had stress you went out and did something about it, like actually did something. You farmed or moved iron, etc. Nowadays, you have stress and the solution is usually to sit in front of a computer and you aren't physically having anything.

One other thing I've read and tested a little, but I don't consistently do - sunglasses. Blocking out the sun's light from your eyes may reduce cortisol levels. Kind of the opposite of using electronic screens late at night .

I always where sunglasses because I have light colored eyes and they are somewhat light sensitive...but I have realized I over use the..

 

[Kurono]

Dude, I spent the past 7 hours today trying to recover from my leg workout. Too tired to answer anything right now.
i should prioritize recovery supps, bcaa etc.
But I really appreciate the answers!

 

[Kurono]

I'm learning myself but your logic seems sound here. The best way to tell is to run a 4-point saliva test for cortisol. It's about $150 to purchase a kit online. Outside of that the temperature tracking has been good for me.

I did the saliva test up front. The big fluctuations in my own temp tracking I shared aligned with poor saliva results. I added a probiotic (2x a day), lugols iodine (morning), magnesium (200mg 3x a day), NAC (for raised liver values), and melatonin (at night). I focused on getting 7+ hours sleep. I cut out caffeine, dairy, sugar and polyunsaturated fats (as much as possible). My results are in the graph. I went from big fluctuations and a low 97 average to a more stable measurement and results at 98+.

I plan to stick with this for 45 days or so. Then I'll start cutting back on some supplements while continuing to track temps.

OP, I've also read that licorice, boron, and adrenal cortex can raise cortisol. Zinc and dhea (and metabolites like 7-dhea) can lower it. So you could try using those in am and pm respectively to get your cycle back on track.

- Can u tell me which probiotics did you use?
I've spend tons of cash and seems my gut health hasn't improved.

Thing is, if a dozen foods that u eat cause some sort of bloating (average 3/4 of 10) and egg whites and swiss cheese being a 10,
all vegan foods, all veggies being a 8/10
then theres something in the body that needs fixing. Whats next? I can't eat meat? I can't eat carbs? Well I can't eliminate everything , i've done radical diets where none of the foods are the same, and no veggie diet but still got bloating. Anyways, I could have IBS but like I said, i can't afford tests for that or whatever cures they have that would cost a fortune.

I have adrenal cortex, I gotta say tho, nothig worked as good as good ole LEMON and LIME JUICE. 40 bpm reduced in an hour and hey, I've been good today and ytd too. I'm at 68bpm!
I also have the Zinc and I'll try that in the evening.

As far as getting results, well I can't afford it. I literally don't have the money in the bank. When I do, ofc I'll do it

T3/T4/TSH

Well my insurance only tests TSH and they used to test T3. Before I had gotten literal cursed by the dentist, my levels all were good.
After that, I was told that my T3 was at a bottom figure, extremely low this number was out of their range.

After I started taking T3 25mcg, I was told my TSH is mildly suppressed and my T3 at the very minimum range that they had to be considered "normal." It was far from optimal though.

Right now, all of those tests are in some box in storage cuz I moved. I cant get to them.

Cortisol tested in July at 7.2 in the morning and their bottom figure was 7.

As I said, I started early August doing lemon juice, raising calories. I read that Keto diets starve serontonin and dopamine levels and may screw up peoples adrenals if they are prone to be bad.. and now its not time for that! So I've been off keto.

 

[Ricky10]

C.Macroceras plant alkaloids

 

[Angrypolak]

Kurono

The probiotic I'm taking is Garden of Life Primal Defense Ultra. I've also heard great things about Evomuse Guthealth.

If you can't afford testing right now, I'd highly recommend temperature tracking. It's a good indicator of thyroid and adrenal health.

Also, how many calories are you eating and what do your macros look like? Can you share?

Eating at a calorie deficit is an energy restriction, which could help explain lower temps.

 

[Kurono]

Kurono

The probiotic I'm taking is Garden of Life Primal Defense Ultra. I've also heard great things about Evomuse Guthealth.

If you can't afford testing right now, I'd highly recommend temperature tracking. It's a good indicator of thyroid and adrenal health.

Also, how many calories are you eating and what do your macros look like? Can you share?

Eating at a calorie deficit is an energy restriction, which could help explain lower temps.

I'm slowly reverse dieting from keto macros, I'm closer to minus 500 below tdee.
Right now at 1360 calories
25% carb/35% protein/45% fat

It's been est. that temps are low due to thyroid disease from doctors analysis and everything else is a drop in the ocean. I've had my thyroid scanned with an MRI a couple of times. I just don't want to take it out, it will only complicate matters to be even worse

I have been tracking temps, they are more normal on 37.5mcg T3.
And they were completely abnormal when I had no meds for 3 yrs straight (95 avg temp and lower sometimes)

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware that any strong reduction in calories will produce a negative effect on thyroid hormones, metabolic rate will crash. Thank God refeed date is up soon!

 

[HIT4ME]

I'm slowly reverse dieting from keto macros, I'm closer to minus 500 below tdee.
Right now at 1360 calories
25% carb/35% protein/45% fat

It's been est. that temps are low due to thyroid disease from doctors analysis and everything else is a drop in the ocean. I've had my thyroid scanned with an MRI a couple of times. I just don't want to take it out, it will only complicate matters to be even worse

I have been tracking temps, they are more normal on 37.5mcg T3.
And they were completely abnormal when I had no meds for 3 yrs straight (95 avg temp and lower sometimes)

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware that any strong reduction in calories will produce a negative effect on thyroid hormones, metabolic rate will crash. Thank God refeed date is up soon!

Your thread has me re-researching stuff. You are on T3 and a very low dose of T4 - have you experimented with that ratio? T4 has some cellular effects itself, it isn't just there to make T3. It may be wise to try a smaller dose of T3 and a much higher dose of T4, since T4 is about 1/4 as strong as T3. In other words, maybe something like 100 mcg T4 and 25 mcg or even 12.5 mcg T3. There is a lot of information out there about T4 converting to rT3 and making T3 useless - which is an argument for using T3 only - but it never quite sits right with me. It doesn't totally make sense to be honest. Maybe you have already tried this.

Another thing - low iron levels can increase your side effects to T3 - have you had iron levels checked? What about cortisol?

 

[Kurono]

Your thread has me re-researching stuff. You are on T3 and a very low dose of T4 - have you experimented with that ratio? T4 has some cellular effects itself, it isn't just there to make T3. It may be wise to try a smaller dose of T3 and a much higher dose of T4, since T4 is about 1/4 as strong as T3. In other words, maybe something like 100 mcg T4 and 25 mcg or even 12.5 mcg T3. There is a lot of information out there about T4 converting to rT3 and making T3 useless - which is an argument for using T3 only - but it never quite sits right with me. It doesn't totally make sense to be honest. Maybe you have already tried this.

Another thing - low iron levels can increase your side effects to T3 - have you had iron levels checked? What about cortisol?

Well, I've been pretty good lately, thanks . You?
My heartrate has been pretty steady at 65-75 resting heart rate. I can say I'm very positive that the HYDROCORTISONE was the culprit! I thought a 2.5% wouldn't be such a big deal, but man, going off of it was a LIGHT AND DAY difference. yes, the lemon water and adrenal cortex are helpful, BUT the hydrocortisone is constantly fighting that. I have bad eczema but i swore off it. That stuff is definitely a drug and not any kind of cure.

My temps are pretty stable at 37.5mg T3 a day, but drop at the early evening if using only 25.
Well, I did say I have tried 50mcg of T4 which is only 1/2 of the 100mcg pill but that's too much. I got horrible immediate side effects and I was just left clutching myself inbed, every part of me was sensitive and my skin was felt all kinds of pain and made my heart feel really awful! I've done this twice as a "make sure" and it was surely the T4.

Trust me, if I could go lower on T3 and higher on T4 I would since T4 is only 1/6th the price of T3.

Iron levels are good in blood test. It's only T3 is highly suppressed at lowest possible value.
As I mentioned, at time of Adrenal fatigue my cortisol was totally bottomed out in the morning, but I stopped Hydrocortisone (which is cortisol basically?) And that fixed me. I have been on that for 2 months but I was on Clobestatol for almost a year But my doctor mentioned nothing about longterm usage would **** me up~!!!

 

[HIT4ME]

Well, I've been pretty good lately, thanks . You?
My heartrate has been pretty steady at 65-75 resting heart rate. I can say I'm very positive that the HYDROCORTISONE was the culprit! I thought a 2.5% wouldn't be such a big deal, but man, going off of it was a LIGHT AND DAY difference. yes, the lemon water and adrenal cortex are helpful, BUT the hydrocortisone is constantly fighting that. I have bad eczema but i swore off it. That stuff is definitely a drug and not any kind of cure.

My temps are pretty stable at 37.5mg T3 a day, but drop at the early evening if using only 25.
Well, I did say I have tried 50mcg of T4 which is only 1/2 of the 100mcg pill but that's too much. I got horrible immediate side effects and I was just left clutching myself inbed, every part of me was sensitive and my skin was felt all kinds of pain and made my heart feel really awful! I've done this twice as a "make sure" and it was surely the T4.

Trust me, if I could go lower on T3 and higher on T4 I would since T4 is only 1/6th the price of T3.

Iron levels are good in blood test. It's only T3 is highly suppressed at lowest possible value.
As I mentioned, at time of Adrenal fatigue my cortisol was totally bottomed out in the morning, but I stopped Hydrocortisone (which is cortisol basically?) And that fixed me. I have been on that for 2 months but I was on Clobestatol for almost a year But my doctor mentioned nothing about longterm usage would **** me up~!!!

This is part of the reason that it is difficult to diagnose online - I don't THINK I saw it mentioned anywhere in here before that you were on corticosteroids. I suspected low-cortisol/adrenal fatigue, but that likely wasn't the issue.

If you were on hydrocortisone, you are correct - that is basically cortisol - so you had cortisol in your system and your adrenals weren't under producing because they were fatigued, they shut down because they sensed there was already enough cortisol and they didn't need to make more. So, you wake up in the morning and they weren't producing any...you have low cort....then you take your hydrocortisone and it goes back up in your system and this tells your adrenals there's still no need to produce.

Normally, as T3 goes up, so does cortisol production. So with time things should even out a little now. Hydrocortisone and other corticosteroids have their place, but usually aren't great long term. They are also immunosuppressive.

Anyway, glad you are doing better!

 

[Kurono]

This is part of the reason that it is difficult to diagnose online - I don't THINK I saw it mentioned anywhere in here before that you were on corticosteroids. I suspected low-cortisol/adrenal fatigue, but that likely wasn't the issue.

If you were on hydrocortisone, you are correct - that is basically cortisol - so you had cortisol in your system and your adrenals weren't under producing because they were fatigued, they shut down because they sensed there was already enough cortisol and they didn't need to make more. So, you wake up in the morning and they weren't producing any...you have low cort....then you take your hydrocortisone and it goes back up in your system and this tells your adrenals there's still no need to produce.

Normally, as T3 goes up, so does cortisol production. So with time things should even out a little now. Hydrocortisone and other corticosteroids have their place, but usually aren't great long term. They are also immunosuppressive.

Anyway, glad you are doing better!

You got it man. Thanks for sticking around! Hey, tho I don't have any more rapid heart rate, I still feel overall tired and not really recovering from my workouts (needing to nap for 1-3 hours following a gym workout). But still, I'm a lot better. Just bad around gym times.

But since my body has been under corticosteroids since over a year, it might be a while until my body catches up!
BTW, I didn't even know Clobestatol was a corticosteroid NOR did I know these things were harmful and my doctor approved of me using hydrocortisone. When I mentioned clobestatol she didn't blink an eye or care how long I've been on both of these, and didn't blink an eye when I said I have had some adrenal fatigue. It was like alien tongue to her!