EC stack Anticatabolic Properties?

[f4iguy]

It is my understanding that the EC stack has Anticatabolic properties. Can somebody elaborate how this works in the body?

Has anybody experienced greater strength while reducing calories with EC vs without EC?

I haven't used the stack in years but I do seem to recall slightly elevated strength in subsequent sets. In set 2, 3, and 4 of many exercises I would get an extra rep or two.

Was this placebo or something else?

 

[Eight]

Nope. Definitely no extra strength here.

But then I don't get much stimulation from EC. Rather ephedrine makes me a little foggy, and it takes a **** load more than 200-300mg of caffeine to get me going.

 

[f4iguy]

Nope. Definitely no extra strength here.

But then I don't get much stimulation from EC. Rather ephedrine makes me a little foggy, and it takes a **** load more than 200-300mg of caffeine to get me going.

I don't drink coffee or ingest any stimulants. Even though I'm pretty big it only takes me 200mg of caffeine to get amped up. I can't say for sure if I felt any stronger back when I tried the EC stack, 1-2 reps when doing sets of 10-15 could easily be attributed to placebo.

 

[P.brow17]

I think the anti-catabolic properties claim is more in reference to the fact that while in a calorie deficit, the EC combo will prevent you from losing as much weight from muscle as a result of the deficit itself. It's not necessarily that you will have an immediate increase in strength, just that in relation to people not on an EC stack on the same kind of deficit, you will experience less muscle loss. So over time, it could be perceived that you have greater strength.

 

[Eight]

I don't drink coffee or ingest any stimulants. Even though I'm pretty big it only takes me 200mg of caffeine to get amped up.

That's definitely a good thing. I've had to have a "total" (mostly) break from caffeine recently. It sucked.

 

[john.patterson]

It is my understanding that the EC stack has Anticatabolic properties. Can somebody elaborate how this works in the body?

Has anybody experienced greater strength while reducing calories with EC vs without EC?

I haven't used the stack in years but I do seem to recall slightly elevated strength in subsequent sets. In set 2, 3, and 4 of many exercises I would get an extra rep or two.

Was this placebo or something else?

I don't think strength will go up if you're in a deficit, but it's possible that the extra stimulants could allow you to push more weight. For me personally, I always "feel" EC for the first week or two that I begin using it. After the first few weeks I really don't notice much, and I wouldn't say that it's helped with my strength.

This study might also be helpful - found this on another forum:

"Research showing preservation of lean tissue and significantly improved protein deposition in response to treatment with ephedrine during caloric restriction indicates that beta-agonists are exerting an anabolic effect in humans."

This is the study referenced in that quote but I can't view the full text: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1619985

 

[f4iguy]

"Research showing preservation of lean tissue and significantly improved protein deposition in response to treatment with ephedrine during caloric restriction indicates that beta-agonists are exerting an anabolic effect in humans."

This sounds like beautiful poetry to me! It also frustrates me that ephedrine has been banned. Stupidity (ie. taking the EC stack when you're accustomed to a sedentary lifestyle then doing HIT cardio jacking your heart rate to the moon while introducing a new stimulant AND intense cardio without any prior conditioning) should be banned!

 

[danielmoo]

I don't think strength will go up if you're in a deficit, but it's possible that the extra stimulants could allow you to push more weight. For me personally, I always "feel" EC for the first week or two that I begin using it. After the first few weeks I really don't notice much, and I wouldn't say that it's helped with my strength.

This study might also be helpful - found this on another forum:

"Research showing preservation of lean tissue and significantly improved protein deposition in response to treatment with ephedrine during caloric restriction indicates that beta-agonists are exerting an anabolic effect in humans."

This is the study referenced in that quote but I can't view the full text: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1619985

I've been very interested in these claims as well and have looked at the article but ran into the same problem. My belief is that ephedrine reduces the amount of nitrogen lost through urination, causing the muscles to hold more. This is of course only my speculation and I'd love to hear a more complete explanation of anti-catabolic properties.

 

[john.patterson]

I've been very interested in these claims as well and have looked at the article but ran into the same problem. My belief is that ephedrine reduces the amount of nitrogen lost through urination, causing the muscles to hold more. This is of course only my speculation and I'd love to hear a more complete explanation of anti-catabolic properties.

I never thought of that, interesting thought. I'm not educated with ephedrine enough to understand how or why it would prevent catabolism, and it's hard to really tell if there is much difference to muscle loss/muscle retention while using ephedrine or not. I always notice a slight reduction in strength and power output while dieting due to the calorie deficit, regardless of using EC or not. But if studies say it'll help, then I might as well use it!

 

[Angrypolak]

Ephedrine is a CNS stimulant. I always felt it improved my lifting performance, mostly of lifts that traditionally tax the CNS (heavy squats and deads).

Ironically I just found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12783047/

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Too a lesser extent than albuterol, ephedrine by activating beta-2 receptors in Skeletal muscles should provide somewhat of an acute performance increase. The bronchodilatory will also contribute an acute benefit, hence why sooo many athletes tend to have "asthma"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/jphysiol.2014.277095/full

 

[NoAddedHmones]

I think the anti-catabolic properties claim is more in reference to the fact that while in a calorie deficit, the EC combo will prevent you from losing as much weight from muscle as a result of the deficit itself. It's not necessarily that you will have an immediate increase in strength, just that in relation to people not on an EC stack on the same kind of deficit, you will experience less muscle loss. So over time, it could be perceived that you have greater strength.

Incorrect

 

[P.brow17]

Incorrect

*sigh*

Only because you started it, will I make you look stupid again.

Please enlighten everyone, what exactly was I incorrect about? This forum is largely devoted to the sharing of knowledge from those with it to those without, and your one word responses offer the good people nothing

 

[rascal14]

*sigh*

Only because you started it, will I make you look stupid again.

Please enlighten everyone, what exactly was I incorrect about? This forum is largely devoted to the sharing of knowledge from those with it to those without, and your one word responses offer the good people nothing

The only person who looks stupid is you, for saying you were going to make him look stupid and then not accomplishing it. Lol

 

[f4iguy]

There are several things I appreciate about anabolicminds:
1. Links to studies relevant to the topic being discussed
2. Experienced members breaking down technical terms from studies
3. Members sharing personal experiences, bonus points for objective information (ie. increase of 5lbs on major lifts vs. I got stronger)
4. Members having intelligent debates about different topics based on research and personal experience. This works especially well when emotions are left out and the focus is the topic at hand, not who can degrade the other individual in a public forum.

Lets make more of 1-4 happen!

 

[P.brow17]

Incorrect

"Interestingly, this study also demonstrated that E + C dramatically spared muscle catabolism, and that approximately 85% of the weight loss was due to loss in fat mass, compared with 50% of weight loss in placebo (10). Studies whose end-point was too early or those that looked only at total
weight loss often came up with negative results (19-21). Other groups have reported similar protein-sparing fat loss results as Astrup, using E + C 20 mg/200 mg (22). or using ECA in doses of 75-150 mg/150mg/330 mg (23)."
Yehya, Nadir. University of California, Los Angeles (2001). Mechanism, Efficacy, and Safety of an Ephedrine, Caffeine, and Aspirin Combination in the Treatment of Obesity. Nutrition Bytes, 7(1). Retrieved from: escholarship(dot)org/uc/item/6zh730fw

Too a lesser extent than albuterol, ephedrine by activating beta-2 receptors in Skeletal muscles should provide somewhat of an acute performance increase. The bronchodilatory will also contribute an acute benefit, hence why sooo many athletes tend to have "asthma"

This has nothing to do with question OP is asking with regards to its "anti-catabolic properties". Yes, it has been well established that the EC stack enhances nervous system output, just like countless other stimulants.

The anti-catabolic properties associated with the EC stack pertain to the effect on nutrient partitioning. Muscle catabolism is the breakdown of muscle tissue to produce energy, and the EC stack has been proven in countless studies (like this one) to spare muscle tissue in a calorie deficit, thereby making it have anti-catabolic properties. In reality, any supplement that promotes fat burning and has a positive impact on lypolysis will also indirectly have a positive impact on muscle preseveration, making it anti-catabolic.

The only person who looks stupid is you, for saying you were going to make him look stupid and then not accomplishing it. Lol

I didn't need to "make him look stupid", he accomplished that himself after he failed to answer OP's question, while at the same time wrongfully claiming that what I said was incorrect without any evidence to back it up. There was nothing left for me to do.

Do. You. Understand. Now?

 

[NoAddedHmones]

"Interestingly, this study also demonstrated that E + C dramatically spared muscle catabolism, and that approximately 85% of the weight loss was due to loss in fat mass, compared with 50% of weight loss in placebo (10). Studies whose end-point was too early or those that looked only at total
weight loss often came up with negative results (19-21). Other groups have reported similar protein-sparing fat loss results as Astrup, using E + C 20 mg/200 mg (22). or using ECA in doses of 75-150 mg/150mg/330 mg (23)."
Yehya, Nadir. University of California, Los Angeles (2001). Mechanism, Efficacy, and Safety of an Ephedrine, Caffeine, and Aspirin Combination in the Treatment of Obesity. Nutrition Bytes, 7(1). Retrieved from: escholarship(dot)org/uc/item/6zh730fw



This has nothing to do with question OP is asking with regards to its "anti-catabolic properties". Yes, it has been well established that the EC stack enhances nervous system output, just like countless other stimulants.

The anti-catabolic properties associated with the EC stack pertain to the effect on nutrient partitioning. Muscle catabolism is the breakdown of muscle tissue to produce energy, and the EC stack has been proven in countless studies (like this one) to spare muscle tissue in a calorie deficit, thereby making it have anti-catabolic properties. In reality, any supplement that promotes fat burning and has a positive impact on lypolysis will also indirectly have a positive impact on muscle preseveration, making it anti-catabolic.




I didn't need to "make him look stupid", he accomplished that himself after he failed to answer OP's question, while at the same time wrongfully claiming that what I said was incorrect without any evidence to back it up. There was nothing left for me to do.

Do. You. Understand. Now?

Ill wear that, didnt read the OP correctly. But you are still a condecending flog

 

[P.brow17]

Your fried u e-warrior, what does the second paragraph ask? I cbf discussing with you, because you are a condecending flog.

Unsubscribed

Sorry I hurt your feelings mate. If you don't want condescension, don't attack someone by claiming they are "incorrect" without offering anything to back it up.

Here's my 2 cents on the EC stack and perceived strength gains:

Most definitely can you feel stronger during a calorie deficit if you take an EC stack. But this has more to do with the fact that you are in a deficit to begin with when you take it. More than likely, anybody running a decent sized deficit is dealing with slower recovery, poor sleep quality, and general grogginess during the day. Not to mention the fact that if you go steep enough, the drop in SNS output can lead to a drop in blood pressure. It only makes sense that supplementing something that boosts SNS output/bloodflow, increases body temp, releases dopamine, etc. will give a person the perceived effect of greater strength.

Personally, before my first run, I was struggling to get through a workout during my cut. But literally the day I started taking it, my productivity in the gym doubled, my lifts went up, and I wasn't nearly as sore post-workout. I also noticed though that the quality of my workouts began to diminish as my tolerance built up.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that you should expect to see your lifts go up if you take it while cutting. And I'd be willing to bet that the perceived strength increases associated with an EC stack more than likely become less noticeable as you increase you calorie consumption back to normal. But at a minimum, insofar as your necessary protein intake is being reached daily, you can reasonably expect to maintain strength throughout your cut. But I'd be surprised to find any sort of study concluding that a normal person taking EC while in a good-sized deficit can build more than marginal amounts of muscle.

There is that whole theory of muscle memory tho........

 

[f4iguy]

What are the effects of ingesting guafinesin long term (primatene/bronkaid)? There has to be a catch right?

 

[P.brow17]

That's the ultimate question. It's an expectorant, so no long term studies have ever been done/needed. The optimistic side of me wants to say that based on the numerous amounts people on these forums and other ones who have taken it for years without any issues, we should be fine. Lyle McDonald even recommends bronkaid as a possible source of ephedrine in a couple of his books, and there are few people whose opinion I respect more than his with regards to supplementation and nutrition.

I do remember reading once a post by a guy claiming it can lead to kidney stones if you don't drink a lot of water with it, but he never had any actual hard data to back it up.