Odd Question About Benzos

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  1. Odd Question About Benzos


    I have a prescription for 2mg Klonopin to take as needed for insomnia due to anxiety and panic attacks. I usually take one on sunday nights, and the next day I am in a much better mood, higher energy, more motivated.

    I'm wondering what this could be because of? The better sleep I get when using the Klonopin, the reduction in generalized anxiety I don't normally notice, or just still feeling the "high" of it, carried onto the next day?

    The 2mg tends to make me a bit spacey and forgetful but still very functional but I only take at night when I'm winding down for the day. 1mg will generally put me in a good mood at the time but not last as much the next day.

    I know this isn't supplement related, but does anyone have ideas, and if so, does anyone have a suggestion for something OTC to continue to have this increased energy and motivation I don't normally have? Obviously I don't want to succumb to daily benzo use, and I won't. It would just be nice to feel this good all the time.


  2. increased serotonin levels
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    increased serotonin levels
    Thank you sir. I will do some more reading and talk with my doctor about other possible issues that may be coming to light because of this.

    I have a good relationship with my doctor and he listens, but I like to have a good idea of what to go in there with and have my own ideas and opinions to bounce off of him and he seems to be okay with that.

  4. Klonipin is a long acting Benzo and if I'm not mistaken as its broken down turns into different chemicals. Has a really long Half-Life I think the longest of most benzos.

    Quoted

    "Clonazepam has an elimination half-life of 18 50 hours to 19 60 hours, and is generally considered to be a long-acting benzodiazepine. Clonazepam has an intermediate onset of action, with a peak blood level occurring one to four hours after oral administration."

    So the next day your basically riding the wave of the medication without the initial "kick" that occurs in the 1-4 he period
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  5. Yeah I knew it had a long half life, some days I can feel it up to two days after dosing. I'm just trying to figure out if it's the reduction in generalized anxiety making me feel good based on the longer halflife, or what.

    I have much more motivation and better mood. I tend to be very tired and lazy most days and get irritated and in a bad mood easily, but it seems the day after using Klonopin thag my confident and motivation is much higher.

    On a side note, my test is lowish for my age and I have been having high estrogen issues along with lowered libido for a while. This could all be related or completely seperate, I will get with my doctor though. I'm just searching for ideas and tips because I'm out of town and won't get to see the doctor for a few weeks.
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  6. Look up benzodiazepines and gaba. This is the relationship that causes what your describing.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by rascal14 View Post
    Yeah I knew it had a long half life, some days I can feel it up to two days after dosing. I'm just trying to figure out if it's the reduction in generalized anxiety making me feel good based on the longer halflife, or what.

    I have much more motivation and better mood. I tend to be very tired and lazy most days and get irritated and in a bad mood easily, but it seems the day after using Klonopin thag my confident and motivation is much higher.
    This is exactly whats going on. Back in the day doctors used to taper patients on and off of these to both assess tolerance and minimize side effects. seems now they have moved away from this most likley becuase patients dont tend to listen and it's easier to jump on and off. These medications can have effects lasting days when you are messing with your nervous system. Benzo's main function is to relax your CNS functions which is why you feel better and you float on cloud 9.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by Godstrength View Post
    Look up benzodiazepines and gaba. This is the relationship that causes what your describing.
    Will do.

    It is also worth noting that I am on Glycopyrrolate for hyperhidrosis, which is an acetylcholine inhibitor. But since starting that, it does not seem that any of my symptoms have changed. It is said to not cross the BBB, but I don't get any of the typical side effects associated with other anticholinergic compounds that do cross the BBB.

    It looks like I am in for a very confusing and long journey here. lol

  9. Quote Originally Posted by NurseGray View Post
    This is exactly whats going on. Back in the day doctors used to taper patients on and off of these to both assess tolerance and minimize side effects. seems now they have moved away from this most likley becuase patients dont tend to listen and it's easier to jump on and off. These medications can have effects lasting days when you are messing with your nervous system. Benzo's main function is to relax your CNS functions which is why you feel better and you float on cloud 9.
    Which leads me to wonder if I do actually have an underlying issue and not just some anxiety here and there..

    I'm not feeling high or anything, I just feel as if I have the normal motivation and energy levels that should be associated with my age.

    I can function just fine when not using the medication, and only using it once a week is not worrisome to me. But, if what it takes to get the normal energy and motivation that comes along with it requires additional use I don't want to go that route.

    It is hard to say whether or not this is what other "normal" people feel. I don't feel like I'm above average in feeling this way.

    I do know none of this is medical advise and you aren't doctors. I am not taking this as legitimate medical advice and I will consult my doctor about any and all changes I make.

    This is purely a discussion, I don't want anyone reading this to think I'm doing this on my own. I have a good doctor that I work with.

  10. This is what medication is for rascal. If you need to take 1 tablet eod or e3d to get this effect then that's what its prescribed for. With a protocol like this your in no danger of abusing your medication. Your only taking "as needed" as opposed to every x hours. Which is minimal risk of dependence. And your right definitely not a doctor. But also you shouldn't have to feel worrisome about taking something that's helping.
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  11. Yeah, so....I'm not sure there is an easy answer to your question; at least not one that I fully comprehend. To some degree, I wonder if anyone fully comprehends some of the issues involved.

    The main function of the benzo you are using appears to be GABA uptake enhancement. It's an interesting MOA in my eyes, basically it doesn't change GABA levels, it just makes the gaba you have more effective; almost like sensitizing the receptor site but not exactly.

    It also decreases Acetylcholine levels in the brain (at least in cats according to wikipedia). It is interesting you mention being on the Ach inhibitor because I was wondering about this when you described things. Ach that is too high or too low can create drastic mood changes/disorders. Lots of drugs decrease Ach and in elderly patients (who tend to use numerous medications) the Ach inhibition can build up and a group of drugs that would all be fine on their own inhibit Ach when combined together to the point where there are elderly patients who have been diagnosed and treated for dementia for years before someone realized that they didn't have dementia at all, it was low Ach levels caused by the drugs.

    Too much Ach can cause the SAME issues to a large degree. Especially confusion/anxiety.

    Then comes adenosine, which builds in the brain as you grow tired and helps trigger sleep and actually inhibits the function of Ach. And of course the enzyme that breaks down adenosine - adenosine deaminase; which combined with adenosine has a large impact on immunology/inflammation.

    Two things I have noticed from personal experience - what you are describing from the benzo is EXTREMELY similar to how I would describe my phenibut use. Works great, puts me to sleep, I get great sleep. The next day I feel like a million bucks. I will be very happy. The second day after, I will still feel it but it will be much more subtle. Things are back to normal the third day.

    The second observation is - have you ever used gaba itself? Gaba isn't supposed to cross the BBB but it is extremely relaxing none the less and helps me sleep and I can get great sleep on it. I have two theories why it works even though it doesn't cross the BBB.

    1. Taking gaba exogenously "spares" the gaba that will be used in your brain from going elsewhere. I.e. - if the gaba pill relaxes the nerves in your arms, the gaba your body would use for doing that is left available for your brain somehow.

    2. Anthony Robbins always points out the fact that if you hold your head high, chest out, shoulders back and put a big smile on your face - it is REALLY hard to feel sad. Our body sends feedback signals to our brain about its state, and our brain responds accordingly. If gaba is relaxing our body, some secondary messenger likely sends feedback to your brain and causes a chemical cascade.

    I would try experimenting with some gaba when you have nights where you are NOT using the drugs - since the benzo will make it more powerful and having more in your system may be undesirable.

    Beyond that, I'd be looking at your underlying Ach issues. Ach is funny because it is needed for wakefulness - but it is also high during REM sleep. Ach can't be too high or too low.

    Do you smoke or use a lot of caffeine or other stimulants? Yohimbine/Rauwolscine?

    What is your diet like? What times of the day do you eat?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Godstrength View Post
    This is what medication is for rascal. If you need to take 1 tablet eod or e3d to get this effect then that's what its prescribed for. With a protocol like this your in no danger of abusing your medication. Your only taking "as needed" as opposed to every x hours. Which is minimal risk of dependence. And your right definitely not a doctor. But also you shouldn't have to feel worrisome about taking something that's helping.
    This is true, I just am very cautious of medications, my mom has been on countless medications for anxiety now for years, always saying they about to start cutting back, but it never happening. Now, her symptoms are much much more severe than mine are. But, still.


    Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yeah, so....I'm not sure there is an easy answer to your question; at least not one that I fully comprehend. To some degree, I wonder if anyone fully comprehends some of the issues involved.

    The main function of the benzo you are using appears to be GABA uptake enhancement. It's an interesting MOA in my eyes, basically it doesn't change GABA levels, it just makes the gaba you have more effective; almost like sensitizing the receptor site but not exactly.

    It also decreases Acetylcholine levels in the brain (at least in cats according to wikipedia). It is interesting you mention being on the Ach inhibitor because I was wondering about this when you described things. Ach that is too high or too low can create drastic mood changes/disorders. Lots of drugs decrease Ach and in elderly patients (who tend to use numerous medications) the Ach inhibition can build up and a group of drugs that would all be fine on their own inhibit Ach when combined together to the point where there are elderly patients who have been diagnosed and treated for dementia for years before someone realized that they didn't have dementia at all, it was low Ach levels caused by the drugs.



    Too much Ach can cause the SAME issues to a large degree. Especially confusion/anxiety.

    Then comes adenosine, which builds in the brain as you grow tired and helps trigger sleep and actually inhibits the function of Ach. And of course the enzyme that breaks down adenosine - adenosine deaminase; which combined with adenosine has a large impact on immunology/inflammation.

    Two things I have noticed from personal experience - what you are describing from the benzo is EXTREMELY similar to how I would describe my phenibut use. Works great, puts me to sleep, I get great sleep. The next day I feel like a million bucks. I will be very happy. The second day after, I will still feel it but it will be much more subtle. Things are back to normal the third day.

    The second observation is - have you ever used gaba itself? Gaba isn't supposed to cross the BBB but it is extremely relaxing none the less and helps me sleep and I can get great sleep on it. I have two theories why it works even though it doesn't cross the BBB.

    1. Taking gaba exogenously "spares" the gaba that will be used in your brain from going elsewhere. I.e. - if the gaba pill relaxes the nerves in your arms, the gaba your body would use for doing that is left available for your brain somehow.

    2. Anthony Robbins always points out the fact that if you hold your head high, chest out, shoulders back and put a big smile on your face - it is REALLY hard to feel sad. Our body sends feedback signals to our brain about its state, and our brain responds accordingly. If gaba is relaxing our body, some secondary messenger likely sends feedback to your brain and causes a chemical cascade.

    I would try experimenting with some gaba when you have nights where you are NOT using the drugs - since the benzo will make it more powerful and having more in your system may be undesirable.

    Beyond that, I'd be looking at your underlying Ach issues. Ach is funny because it is needed for wakefulness - but it is also high during REM sleep. Ach can't be too high or too low.

    Do you smoke or use a lot of caffeine or other stimulants? Yohimbine/Rauwolscine?

    What is your diet like? What times of the day do you eat?
    I haven't noticed any differences in mood or anything since starting the Glycopyrrolate, so I don't think that is the cause. It may have gradually started increasing my symptoms but that is difficult to tell.

    I have used GABA a few times, mostly mixed into other products. I don't think I have supplemented with it alone though.

    The Acetylcholine issue may or may not be an actual issue and it is hard to tell.. I don't notice any brain fog or headaches ever since starting the Glycopyrrolate that would suggest too low of Acetylcholine levels.

    I don't smoke, I drink 2-4 cups of coffee a day, maybe add in a preworkout once or twice a week. No other major stimulants though.

    My diet is decent, I have been intermittent fasting for a while, only eating from around 5:00pm-11:30pm. Sometimes I will eat a snack mid day, but I am about to start eating breakfast and a lunch again so we will see if that helps energy levels. I notice if I fast during the day, I'm not as hungry at night, but if I eat one meal or a small snack during the day, I end up much hungrier earlier than I normally would.

  13. Bulk gaba is super cheap.
    Odorless, colorless, and tasteless. If u take it, let's say 2 nights after your benzo dose, you would be trying a cheap and safe experiment.

    @HIT4ME do you know of the general consensus on sleep cycles w benzos? I remember reading about how lousy they were with the dedicated sleep aides (ambien, lunesta, etc), significant negative impact with benzos, but surprisingly almost normal w off label trazodone use... my subjective experience is in agreement, so my confirmation bias is in full force LOL

  14. Quote Originally Posted by rascal14 View Post
    This is true, I just am very cautious of medications, my mom has been on countless medications for anxiety now for years, always saying they about to start cutting back, but it never happening. Now, her symptoms are much much more severe than mine are. But, still.




    I haven't noticed any differences in mood or anything since starting the Glycopyrrolate, so I don't think that is the cause. It may have gradually started increasing my symptoms but that is difficult to tell.

    I have used GABA a few times, mostly mixed into other products. I don't think I have supplemented with it alone though.

    The Acetylcholine issue may or may not be an actual issue and it is hard to tell.. I don't notice any brain fog or headaches ever since starting the Glycopyrrolate that would suggest too low of Acetylcholine levels.

    I don't smoke, I drink 2-4 cups of coffee a day, maybe add in a preworkout once or twice a week. No other major stimulants though.

    My diet is decent, I have been intermittent fasting for a while, only eating from around 5:00pm-11:30pm. Sometimes I will eat a snack mid day, but I am about to start eating breakfast and a lunch again so we will see if that helps energy levels. I notice if I fast during the day, I'm not as hungry at night, but if I eat one meal or a small snack during the day, I end up much hungrier earlier than I normally would.
    All interesting info - the Glycopyrrolate does not cross the BBB so it may not have any effect on mood and may be targeted toward your peripheral system, which would actually be desired for the hyperhidrosis. Why mess with your brain if you can solve the chemical action in the body without messing with it.

    2-4 cups of coffee isn't a lot for most people, I drink way more and take a ton of caffeine, but I have a high tolerance. But caffeine does block adenosine receptors; which maybe you don't clear that so well and it keeps you awake? A day or two without caffeine may have a huge impact on your sleep.

    Another thing that helps me a lot, not so much with falling asleep, but with staying asleep is ZMA.

    Restful sleep can have a huge impact, which might be most of what you are feeling with the happiness/energy the next day.

    Have you had blood work done? How are your red blood counts?

    I am curious to see how you feel if you eat more breakfast. I've been on hard diets off and on for a couple years, including a PSMF. I've noticed the opposite - sometimes I can go all day without eating and this usually triggers over-eating at night. I'm currently thinking a lot about the circadian rhythm and how sleep/wake may effect appetite more than we realize. We know that too little sleep can effect grehlin levels and increase hunger; I wonder if even more goes into it. I'm trying to eat more like a farmer - a bigger breakfast for a big work day, nothing or maybe some small amounts of protein through the day/afternoon if I get hungry, and a more reasonable dinner - which means about 50% of my calories for breakfast and 50% for dinner, or maybe 45/45 if I have a snack. I'd like to shift that more toward eating early in the day and see how that goes. It will be interesting if eating earlier instead of IF will have an effect on you that is unexpected.

    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    Bulk gaba is super cheap.
    Odorless, colorless, and tasteless. If u take it, let's say 2 nights after your benzo dose, you would be trying a cheap and safe experiment.

    @HIT4ME do you know of the general consensus on sleep cycles w benzos? I remember reading about how lousy they were with the dedicated sleep aides (ambien, lunesta, etc), significant negative impact with benzos, but surprisingly almost normal w off label trazodone use... my subjective experience is in agreement, so my confirmation bias is in full force LOL
    I honestly don't know much about benzo's directly - I would have to research and I have no experience with it. I will say that the more I look at this stuff, and I am far from a trained medical professional, the less I realize we actually know. My grandmother is a major factor behind most of my recent research - she is 91 and can't walk on her own anymore. She is on opioids for pain and has a ton of sides from it that even the doctors seem to ignore. Researching opioids has shown me how much doctors prescribe things that are only partially understood and think they work one way without realizing the consequences. For instance, long-term opioid use may actually cause INCREASES in pain; which is contradictory to the reason you are prescribing them to begin with. This is different than tolerance - it is an issue where the patient becomes sensitive to pain because of the opiates and increasing the dose actually creates more pain. Whether this actually happens is debated but it has been observed as far back as 1870 by doctors using morphine. It just goes to show that sometimes things work one way for a while, but then it goes to far and you get contradictory effects.

  15. Well I sleep most days without the Klonopin, so I don't have trouble getting to sleep or staying asleep these days.

    I do feel pretty tired and unmotivated most days though despite getting plenty of sleep. I wonder if adding in food during the day will help, I'm going to start eating more normally and see how that goes as far as energy and motivation go.

  16. Oh and I have gotten blood work a few times this past year. My doctor requires it atleast once a year since I started the Glycopyrrolate and I am due for more in August, and he also makes me come in every 3 months to get feedback and see how things are to get more refills on anything.

    He did give me a prescription for Buspar that I have never tried out either.

    I will say too that one night I took a Trazadone from my mom, I slept great and felt really good the next day. Either from its anti depressant qualities or from the better sleep, it's hard to say.

    I have a prescription for Ambien as well that I never filled from back when I was having lots of sleeping issues, we were going to do a sleep study but never got around to it since I started sleeping better.

    Once I have a few nights of not being able to sleep, I then worry about not being able to fall asleep and so it starts a cycle of never ending insomnia and panic attacks at night lol

  17. Maybe take a look at the "Effortless Sleep Method"

    It was only a few bucks on amazon. It covers how to improve pre bedtime behavior (sleep hygiene) and how to change negative self talk that leads to insomnia.

    Hang in there bro! U will solve this!

  18. I have been on 2mg a day of Klonopin for over a decade. It played a critical role in getting me through a horrendous low point in my life. Now I am just on it because it would be extremely difficult to wean off of it after being on it for so long. I would essentially have to not work for 3-6 months if I were to attempt getting off of it. It's not like I get anything out of it anymore, I just it take because it is a part of my body chemistry now. Kinda sucks but it is what it is..

    Using it on an as needed basis is surely the way to go and I know a few people that do so without any problem. It sounds like you do essentially have an anxiety issue. Seems like you reacted well to Trazadone, that could be a good place to start. Then there are the SSRI's but I am sure you already know all about those.,I have also been on and off Prozac for over a decade as well..

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Ricky10 View Post
    I have been on 2mg a day of Klonopin for over a decade. It played a critical role in getting me through a horrendous low point in my life. Now I am just on it because it would be extremely difficult to wean off of it after being on it for so long. I would essentially have to not work for 3-6 months if I were to attempt getting off of it. It's not like I get anything out of it anymore, I just it take because it is a part of my body chemistry now. Kinda sucks but it is what it is..

    Using it on an as needed basis is surely the way to go and I know a few people that do so without any problem. It sounds like you do essentially have an anxiety issue. Seems like you reacted well to Trazadone, that could be a good place to start. Then there are the SSRI's but I am sure you already know all about those.,I have also been on and off Prozac for over a decade as well..
    Maybe this will help:

    https://www.khemcorp.com/benzo-rever...earch-summary/

    Also:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&****...YTHnMP5kVKJHbQ

    I know agmatine works extremely well at keeping my grandmothers opiate tolerance in check. So well her doctor and nurses have commented on it.

    Agmatine also has anxiolytic effects itself, which may be helpful to both you amd rascal... Mildly.

  20. I've been using Agmatine for about 3 months now, I actually just ran out today. I need to pick up some more and get some KSM-66 too. I use Kratom every once in a while as well, but that's more recreational yet it does provide a good boost in mood.

    I definitely wouldn't say I'm depressed, I do get some random days where I feel more down than usual, though. It just depends on what's going on, if I haven't been getting out and doing much, things like that which are definitely normal.

    It's just so weird to me how much better I feel the day after using Klonopin, when if I go days without it, I don't really notice how not as happy I am, until I use it again. If that makes sense? Like if I never got introduced to it before, I would never know I could be happier.. lol

    I have used other pills and things before just to get high, I never had an issue it was just in rare occasions so I do know what actually being high is like, and that's not the feeling I get.

  21. I also have some serious insomnia issues from anixety and propably depression as well. Even though I sometimes feel very happy and motivated. Wierd stuff.

    I have Valium and zopiklon. Valium I can get the same effect as you describe @rascal14 with klonopin the day after. But I only use Valium when I have a panic attack or the amount of generalized anixety/OCD is to high to handle.

    The zopiclone on the other hand I have to use daily, which most defenitly means I have developed an "addiction" to it.

    My doctor have prescribed mianserin (NaSSA drug), for my insomnia and anixety. And propably for depression symtomps as well. But I have not tried it due to fear for feeling like crap the day after or getting a panic attack.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Maybe this will help:

    https://www.khemcorp.com/benzo-rever...earch-summary/

    Also:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&****...YTHnMP5kVKJHbQ

    I know agmatine works extremely well at keeping my grandmothers opiate tolerance in check. So well her doctor and nurses have commented on it.

    Agmatine also has anxiolytic effects itself, which may be helpful to both you amd rascal... Mildly.
    Thanks for all the info! Apparently that first drug is only affective IV..chances are that won't be happening!
    I knew Agmatine was good for mood and anxiety, but I never considered using it as a tool to wean off Klonopin..

    Maybe I will start mega-dosing some Agmatine after summer and see if I can get away with less pills..

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Ricky10 View Post
    Thanks for all the info! Apparently that first drug is only affective IV..chances are that won't be happening!
    I knew Agmatine was good for mood and anxiety, but I never considered using it as a tool to wean off Klonopin..

    Maybe I will start mega-dosing some Agmatine after summer and see if I can get away with less pills..
    You don't need to mega dose it actually - unless you've already got a lot you use regularly. My grandmother never used it, so maybe she is a bad example, but just 500 mg 2X per day has her tolerance of opioids way way down. I'm talking 50 mcg of Fentanyl and 10 mg oxy down to 12 mcg/2.5 while on the agmatine. Opioids and benzo's may not be the same, but it just be a matter of taking it 30 minutes before your dose to help slowly reduce tolerance.

    Nigella Sativa (Black Cumin) is also very effective for opioids, but I'm not sure if it will help with benzos. Some people claim it reduces tolerance to opioids better than agmatine.

    You may also try spacing doses a little to utilize the half-life of the drug. I.e. - if you take it every 24 hours, maybe go to every 25 hours, then 26, etc. as your tolerance drops....again, depending on the half life.

  24. Subbed for fascinating info

  25. Tread carefully on Benzos, Ive been on Klonopin for a little over 6 years now and have been weaning off for two years. I have reached a point where I cant even reduce 1/8 of mg without having really intense withdrawal to the point I cant leave the house or work. Im under 1mg now, but I am cking into a hospital in July and doing a medical detox to get this poison(for me ) out of my body. Really wondering how the recovery will go. Always respect this med and use it as little as possible..
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