IME creatine HCl is a joke compared to creatine mono

[Justlooking5]

So when I started bodybuilding again in 2015 I checked out the latest supps and bought into the hype about creatine HCl being better than monohydrate with better results and less bloating etc and it's the form of creatine I've been taking for the most part for the past two years. However, I always had this feeling that my results weren't that great with the HCl.

One week ago I switched from 3g/day of PATENTED Kaged Muscle creatine HCl to Optimum Nutrition Creapure Micronized Creatine monohydrate and the results are much better. I'm taking it old school by doing a loading phase with dextrose at 25g/day x 7 days, then a maintenance dose of 5-10g/day from now on.

I get such better strength and muscle fullness and pump from mono than I do HCl, it's like I wasn't even taking creatine until I started mono last week.
In the gym today I was able to increase both weights AND reps on deadlifts, and the weights felt much easier to move and lighter. The pump was better also.

I've also gained a few lbs. and my arms are measuring a bit bigger, but my subq water retention is not bad at all with this micronized monohydrate.

Personally I'll never go back to HCl instead of a good mono brand. I'm posting this because I kind of wish I hadn't wasted my time with HCl by listening to the "experts" and instead had stuck with mono this whole time.

 

[poison]

Anyone who is an 'expert', and not simply an 'expert salesman', will tell you monohydrate is as good or better as hcl.

 

[ZachH]

Or just take both and get them maximum GAINZ!!!

 

[VO2Maxima]

Mono is fine, certainly gets the job done. That said, I'm surprised that switching creatine types caused your deadlift to jump. I wouldn't think results would be any worse with 5g mono versus 3g HCl, but I wouldn't expect results to be significantly better either. You didn't change anything else? Diet, training, sleep, outside stressors, nothing?

 

[Run579]

I have to agree with VO2Maxima on this one, are you sure it wasn't anything in your diet? I have tried both creatine HCL and creatine mono (same brands you listed), never noticed a significant difference between them as far as performance goes. I know I had less bloating and took a smaller dosage when using HCL but that was it.

 

[Justlooking5]

Mono is fine, certainly gets the job done. That said, I'm surprised that switching creatine types caused your deadlift to jump. I wouldn't think results would be any worse with 5g mono versus 3g HCl, but I wouldn't expect results to be significantly better either. You didn't change anything else? Diet, training, sleep, outside stressors, nothing?

The only other thing I changed was switching from L-Citrulline to Citrulline Malate but I'm almost certain that had little/nothing to do with it. Actually, I am eating fewer calories as I switched from a full on bulk to a bulk on training days/maintenance on off days diet.

Personally (again, in my own experience), I'm not even sure creatine HCl even works all that well, if at all. I have never noticed that much from it, and again this time I was taking the patented form from Kaged Muscle that is made by the inventor of C-HCl.

I kind of think HCl may be another creatine scam like CEE (same inventor btw). I'll never use it again personally, waste of time/money and not very effective if at all.

Here's my experience with Mono vs. HCl

HCl:

I think maybe I'm noticing some extra strength/reps but not sure?

Mono:

-Man my muscles feel pumped/tighter and look bigger all day
-I feel an energy boost after taking it for a few days
-The weights move easier, I am definitely stronger and feel a performance boost
-I'm getting a great pump. Even other people in the gym notice

Deadlift increased by 10 lbs. and 2 reps since being on mono for 7 days vs hcl before. But I added the 10 lbs simply because the weight felt easier and I am guessing I could have added 20 lbs or more for the same reps. Also, I did chins w/ a 35 this week for the same reps as w/ a 25 (hanging from belt) as I did last week. A better test will be bench next week but regardless even for the aesthetic/pump benefits I would stick with mono.

Here is an article on Hcl I read: https://medium.com/@anthonyroberts/everything-wrong-with-creatine-hydrochloride-424a8ceea6a4

 

[f4iguy]

Stick to creapure and you can't go wrong. Cheap and effective.

 

[Rad83]

How many grams of dextrose ya adding with it? That could have something to do with it

 

[hsk]

I like Creapure Creatine Mono, but I experience sides such as cramping, bloat, water retention, etc. With Creatine HCL, I can use a lower dose, I have zero sides, get the same pump but look drier, and the strength/rep gains are more or less the same. Never used the patented form from ConCret. I have only used bulk Creatine HCL from Muscle Feast, Powder City, and Bulk Supplements. Same results from all 3 vendors.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

In the gym today I was able to increase both weights AND reps on deadlifts, and the weights felt much easier to move and lighter.

Hopefully, your programming is correct, and will have you improving even if you took nothing at all. When was the last time you deadlifted and what were the weights and reps then vs this current session? Everything else either I've never heard of Creatine affecting, or (like your arm measurement) you would need something so precise, as to detect millimeter changes in intracellular water retention between the two - if there is any. Maybe the stuff you were using was bunk in the first place? But yeah, Creatine Mono is the Gold Standard with over 700 studies with a scientific consensus hovering around 80% at last glance.

 

[Justlooking5]

I like Creapure Creatine Mono, but I experience sides such as cramping, bloat, water retention, etc. With Creatine HCL, I can use a lower dose, I have zero sides, get the same pump but look drier, and the strength/rep gains are more or less the same. Never used the patented form from ConCret. I have only used bulk Creatine HCL from Muscle Feast, Powder City, and Bulk Supplements. Same results from all 3 vendors.

Maybe it's individual response then.

 

[Justlooking5]

Hopefully, your programming is correct, and will have you improving even if you took nothing at all. When was the last time you deadlifted and what were the weights and reps then vs this current session? Everything else either I've never heard of Creatine affecting, or (like your arm measurement) you would need something so precise, as to detect millimeter changes in intracellular water retention between the two - if there is any. Maybe the stuff you were using was bunk in the first place? But yeah, Creatine Mono is the Gold Standard with over 700 studies with a scientific consensus hovering around 80% at last glance.

The last time I deadlifted was approximately a week before yesterday, when I was still taking creatine HCl and prior to loading creatine mono (and d/c HCl).

I doubt the creatine HCl was bunk as it was patented C-HCl, and prior to tha I was using the Rari brand which gets good ratings but still did not notice much.

Personally mono works better and I never wonder if it's even doing anything like with HCl, it's easy to tell.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

The last time I deadlifted was approximately a week before yesterday, when I was still taking creatine HCl and prior to loading creatine mono (and d/c HCl).

I doubt the creatine HCl was bunk as it was patented C-HCl, and prior to tha I was using the Rari brand which gets good ratings but still did not notice much.

Personally mono works better and I never wonder if it's even doing anything like with HCl, it's easy to tell.

So what did the programming look like for each session?

How did you measure your arm circumference?

 

[rascal14]

It was probably just the added calories from the Dextrose. Lol

 

[Driven2lift]

Just use enough HCl to bring up actual creatine content to 3-5g and it should be equal.

Monohydrate wins by a landslide once you factor in cost.

 

[hsk]

Could also be the loading which increased overall creatine intake compared to previous week. As others have mentioned the added calories and/or insulin spike from loading with dextrose may have been a factor as well.

 

[heavylifter33]

Science hates this thread.

 

[ryanp81]

From a longevity and performance standpoint, CM noted creapure is the way to go. The only issue is some people just can't tolerate it, they will experience some water retention and even raised blood pressure from that even at minimum dosage.

 

[ryanp81]

Science hates this thread.

Brotelligence always overshadows actual science with peer reviewed studies....I remember when this forum was the opposite of all that.

 

[Justlooking5]

So what did the programming look like for each session?

How did you measure your arm circumference?

What do you mean? I was stronger, the weights were moving more easily, so I decided to add 10 lbs and got 2 more reps. And the same reps with +10 lbs (35 from 25) with weighted chins compared with the week before. Like I said, I'll be able to tell more from bench press Tuesday as it's the lift I've been having more trouble with making gains on.

Arms measured with a tape measure.

Look, I am not trying to convince anyone to switch from HCl if they really like it. I'm posting to suggest if people have been ignoring mono for awhile thinking they're getting something better with HCl, it may be worth it to give mono another try as I'm quite sure it works better for me than HCl.

Individual results may vary, but I wouldn't be surprised if when more studies are done with HCl it shows it's not as effective even at the same dose as mono for size and strength.

 

[Justlooking5]

Science hates this thread.

Brotelligence always overshadows actual science with peer reviewed studies....I remember when this forum was the opposite of all that.

Really? Cause how many studies show HCl to be superior to mono in increasing performance? How many studies show mono to be effective vs. HCl?
Sounds like science is on the side of mono being far more proven than HCl.

And science matters, but studies aren't the only thing to consider. Medical science used to say cigarettes were safe and physician recommended, weight lifting inhibited athletic performance.

Your own experience also matters a lot regardless of what experts with an agenda are trying to convince you to buy. Jim Stoppani may tell me HCl is going to be more effective and show some powerpoints about solubility in a glass of water, but if I'm getting better results in the gym with mono I'm going to keep using mono.

 

[ryanp81]

Really? Cause how many studies show HCl to be superior to mono in increasing performance? How many studies show mono to be effective vs. HCl?
Sounds like science is on the side of mono being far more proven than HCl.

And science matters, but studies aren't the only thing to consider. Medical science used to say cigarettes were safe and physician recommended, weight lifting inhibited athletic performance.

Your own experience also matters a lot regardless of what experts with an agenda are trying to convince you to buy. Jim Stoppani may tell me HCl is going to be more effective and show some powerpoints about solubility in a glass of water, but if I'm getting better results in the gym with mono I'm going to keep using mono.

Apparently you don't know what sarcasm is.

 

[heavylifter33]

Really? Cause how many studies show HCl to be superior to mono in increasing performance? How many studies show mono to be effective vs. HCl?
Sounds like science is on the side of mono being far more proven than HCl.

And science matters, but studies aren't the only thing to consider. Medical science used to say cigarettes were safe and physician recommended, weight lifting inhibited athletic performance.

Your own experience also matters a lot regardless of what experts with an agenda are trying to convince you to buy. Jim Stoppani may tell me HCl is going to be more effective and show some powerpoints about solubility in a glass of water, but if I'm getting better results in the gym with mono I'm going to keep using mono.

My issue, and aforementioned comment, is in regards to the massive difference you are reporting between the two. That simply is not supported by science or common sense. I'm not arguing that mono has an edge on hcl, but it's not a large margin my friend.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

What do you mean? I was stronger, the weights were moving more easily, so I decided to add 10 lbs and got 2 more reps. And the same reps with +10 lbs (35 from 25) with weighted chins compared with the week before. Like I said, I'll be able to tell more from bench press Tuesday as it's the lift I've been having more trouble with making gains on.

Arms measured with a tape measure.

I wanted to know the exact programming: exact weight, reps, and sets from last week (HCL), to this week (Mono). I know it's a complete shock to some in the Supplement Section, but the human body actually gets stronger and bigger without taking any supplements at all - through progressive overload. I know, huh!? The margin of error with a Tape Measure is so huge, there's no way you could tell the difference between Mono and HCL on intracellular water retention. And I'm not even sure anyone, using anything (drugs), could add enough muscle tissue in one week, to see a difference on a Tape Measure as well. But I'm glad you like it - I'm just a stickler for details, methods and controls when reporting results from supplements - it's hard enough in a research lab with $10,000.00 equipment...

 

[jameschoi]

Do you take crea before and/or after your workout.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Do you take crea before and/or after your workout.

Take it any time of the day, it doesn't matter. You don't need to load, you don't need to down 27 gal of Grape Juice with it. Non-supplementers get it from their meats, from Red>White>Fish - so take it with food if you want.

 

[Justlooking5]

My issue, and aforementioned comment, is in regards to the massive difference you are reporting between the two. That simply is not supported by science or common sense. I'm not arguing that mono has an edge on hcl, but it's not a large margin my friend.

Well, I wouldn't call it a massive difference, more just the difference between wondering if the creatine you're taking is doing anything and it being obvious that you're getting better strength, pumps, and energy.

As far as the science though - there are very few studies showing HCl even works (I only know of 1), where there are hundreds showing mono works, so science doesn't really say anything about HCl one way or another.

I personally don't think creatine HCl (again, for ME personally) is very effective. And I also think it may be another creatine scam, or semi-scam in that maybe it works somewhat, but not nearly as well as it is claimed to work, and it is also less effective at the same dose as mono, rather than more effective. That's been my experience.

 

[Justlooking5]

I wanted to know the exact programming: exact weight, reps, and sets from last week (HCL), to this week (Mono). I know it's a complete shock to some in the Supplement Section, but the human body actually gets stronger and bigger without taking any supplements at all - through progressive overload. I know, huh!? The margin of error with a Tape Measure is so huge, there's no way you could tell the difference between Mono and HCL on intracellular water retention. And I'm not even sure anyone, using anything (drugs), could add enough muscle tissue in one week, to see a difference on a Tape Measure as well. But I'm glad you like it - I'm just a stickler for details, methods and controls when reporting results from supplements - it's hard enough in a research lab with $10,000.00 equipment...

K here you go, it's not going to tell you anything useful though. I am doing Doggcrapp rest/pause training.

Creatine HCl week:

Deadlifts: 275 x 5
Weighted Chins: 25 x 5
Good Mornings: 95 x 8
Shrugs: 225 x 9

7 days in to creatine mono:

Deadlifts: 285 x 7 (subjectively it was easier than last week too and I'm sure I could have done more weight but I'm trying to ramp back up steadily)
Chins: 35 x 5, 3, 1
Good mornings: 115 x 8
Shrugs: 225 x 10

A lot of this is also about my impression of the weights going up easier and feeling lighter. I've taken a lot of supplements as well as gear in the past and I know when I'm getting a clear performance enhancement - and when I'm wondering if I'm getting any benefit as I long have with HCl.

Also: I could have come on here and reported my strength was getting better on dbol, and I had gained some a few pounds, and my arms were measuring a bit bigger, and you could still say stuff like: "well the human body gets stronger without taking anything so how do you know it's the dbol? and tape measures have a huge margin of error so how do you know your arms are actually bigger?"

I'm not even sure why I'm debating this. I'm presenting my impression for anyone else who might have been using HCl recently and saying, it was a good decision for me to switch to mono. People can do with it what they like from there.

 

[VO2Maxima]

Are those weights in pounds? Assuming yes, for a 215lb guy, 275x5 -> 285x7 deadlift in a week is reasonable (and I'd argue probably even expected) with no supplements at all. Other increases look reasonable as well. No one is arguing that creatine mono doesn't work, it's just that I wouldn't expect to see some huge jump in weights going from creatine HCl to creatine mono. It doesn't make sense from a physiologic standpoint. However, the listed strength increases do make sense and would be completely reasonable without creatine (or any supplements) at all, just with continued work in the gym and increases in strength and skill.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Thanks. I have my opinion on the strength gains, you have yours - glad you are happy. Seacrest out.

 

[Justlooking5]

Personally, what surprises me is the amount of people on here who want to argue that my impressions are incorrect, and that creatine HCl works as well or nearly as well as creatine mono even though there is almost no scientific evidence to support that, and the only evidence HCl does anything are the same subjective reports that are being discounted on this thread.

 

[Justlooking5]

Are those weights in pounds? Assuming yes, for a 215lb guy, 275x5 -> 285x7 deadlift in a week is reasonable (and I'd argue probably even expected) with no supplements at all. Other increases look reasonable as well. No one is arguing that creatine mono doesn't work, it's just that I wouldn't expect to see some huge jump in weights going from creatine HCl to creatine mono. It doesn't make sense from a physiologic standpoint. However, the listed strength increases do make sense and would be completely reasonable without creatine (or any supplements) at all, just with continued work in the gym and increases in strength and skill.

Yes, and guess what, these are all weights I've lifted before and with the exception of chins and good mornings, are at least 100 lbs less than weights I've done previously. However I try to balance making steady progress and not making huge weight jumps for longevity purposes.

So you could say it's just muscle memory etc. Which is why it's really about me presenting my impression about how easily the strength gains came after starting mono, compared to HCl. People can take it as they want it.

Also, I would be interested to know, since several people on here want to argue that HCl is comparably effective to mono (thus that my impressions are incorrect), I'd ask:

How do you know that creatine HCl is effective?

What is the answer going to be? It's not going to be based on science, because there is almost none showing HCl works. It's going to be based on your own subjective experience, and I could make all the same arguments about that that you're making with me with mono (it's not the HCl, it's just natural gains in strength, etc.)

 

[heavylifter33]

Well, I wouldn't call it a massive difference, more just the difference between wondering if the creatine you're taking is doing anything and it being obvious that you're getting better strength, pumps, and energy.

As far as the science though - there are very few studies showing HCl even works (I only know of 1), where there are hundreds showing mono works, so science doesn't really say anything about HCl one way or another.

I personally don't think creatine HCl (again, for ME personally) is very effective. And I also think it may be another creatine scam, or semi-scam in that maybe it works somewhat, but not nearly as well as it is claimed to work, and it is also less effective at the same dose as mono, rather than more effective. That's been my experience.

Huh? It's just bonded creatine allowing for improved aqueous solubility. Once you are saturated creatine monohydrate and creatine hcl illicit the same results and same levels of muscle creatine. There's simply a small difference in uptake. This is basic chemistry bro.

 

[ryanp81]

since several people on here want to argue that HCl is comparably effective to mono (thus that my impressions are incorrect)

Who's arguing with you? Re-read the entire thread thoroughly.

 

[Justlooking5]

Who's arguing with you? Re-read the entire thread thoroughly.

Basically people in this thread are saying: Your impressions about mono are mistaken because creatine HCl works. We know it works because of anecdotal experience (not science). When you say you think mono is much better than HCl, you are wrong, and you can't use your anecdotal experience as reliable evidence because it's not scientific.

Yet the idea that creatine HCl works is entirely rooted in anecdotal experience. If HCl doesn't work, then the benefits I noticed this past week with mono are completely consistent with someone who just started taking creatine.

Assuming yes, for a 215lb guy, 275x5 -> 285x7 deadlift in a week is reasonable (and I'd argue probably even expected) with no supplements at all.

the human body actually gets stronger and bigger without taking any supplements at all - through progressive overload.

I have my opinion on the strength gains, you have yours

 

[hsk]

As Rhadam pointed out, your experience may have been a saturation issue. It could be possible that the amount of Creatine HCL you were taking was not enough for you to reach saturation and then when you immediately switched to Creapure/Mono along with a loading phase, this may have helped to fully saturate (or even over saturate) you which could explain your experience.

Just want say that I'm not arguing which version is more effective or better, but rather once you reach full creatine saturation on any form of creatine, the differences should be minimal to none.

 

[Justlooking5]

As Rhadam pointed out, your experience may have been a saturation issue. It could be possible that the amount of Creatine HCL you were taking was not enough for you to reach saturation and then when you immediately switched to Creapure/Mono along with a loading phase, this may have helped to fully saturate (or even over saturate) you which could explain your experience.

True, but I would mention a few things about that.

1. I'd been taking Hcl for months at a higher than suggested dose (3-6g/day instead of 1.5-2g as suggested by 750mg/100 kg rule for Hcl). The current theory of HCl is that I should have been well saturated with creatine and loading with mono should have made no difference.

Instead, after switching from HCl to mono, I basically got results like someone who had not been taking creatine and then started taking creatine.

What I think is that (again, for me personally, but maybe in general):

1. Creatine HCl is not as effective as mono at a lower dose for strength and size gains.
2. Creatine HCl may not be that effective at all.
3. Loading with mono does have a benefit at least in terms of producing results more rapidly.

 

[Justlooking5]

Here are a few people with similar individual experience: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=141753491

 

[ryanp81]

Justlooking5 Are you out to lunch today?

Since you didn't read my post saying thoroughly re-read the thread here's what I posted on page 1.

From a longevity and performance standpoint, CM noted creapure is the way to go. The only issue is some people just can't tolerate it, they will experience some water retention and even raised blood pressure from that even at minimum dosage.

 

[Justlooking5]

Justlooking5 Are you out to lunch today?

Since you didn't read my post saying thoroughly re-read the thread here's what I posted on page 1.

Nope, I saw your post, but you're not the only person who posted on this thread.