High Dose Fish Oil, big difference?

[Justlooking5]

When I was in my best conditioning (circa early 2000s), I was doing cycles of gear, but another thing I did while on or off was take what today would be considered large doses of omega 3s. I used to eat a crapload of flaxseed/Udo's Choice and later liquid fish oil.

I recently read about Poliquin's recommendation (can't find the original article now) that to gain mass you should try eating 30-45g of fish oil per day, which is really only 2-3 tablespoons, or about the grams of fat in 1/2 lbs. of salmon: https://www.google.com/#q=1+lb+salmon+nutrition

Anyway, so I have been taking a measly 2-3g of fish oil per day for awhile, and decided to up it to 30g/day. I started noticing improvements in mood and motivation, and my recovery seems better. Libido is higher, and I feel clearer headed as well.

This morning I took 10g prior to training, and I looked way better in the gym today than I have in awhile. I looked fairly "enhanced," I thought. Muscles were pumped/"blown up" looking and hard but I looked cut and vascular at the same time, more like back in the old days. Lately, I've felt I have looked more smooth and soft but today was a big difference. Though no real difference in strength.

Poliquin says you can't be anabolic without enough omega-3s. I am guessing I have been deficient in omega-3s as I rarely eat fish (local food store only has crappy frozen salmon) and mainly eat grass fed meats, chicken etc. so upping the omega 3s has helped me more than it might other people.

However, I was thinking about how back in the early 2000s many of us were eating tons of flaxseed, udo's choice, fish oil, several tablespoons at a time, probably 50-80g+ omega-3s per day. Today, people are doing like 2g as the standard dose of fish oil caps.

I know fish oil can thin the blood, but if you're eating a 1/2 to 1 lbs. of fish per day living in Asia for example, you're presumably getting at least 30-60g of fish oil.

Are we neglecting the benefits of higher dose omega-3s?

(BTW, I am using a "freshly caught" brand where it tells you when it was packaged (recently) and supposedly it is free of PCBs, metals etc. I've read freshness/low toxins can be important in terms of getting good results.

 

[Ricky10]

I usually take about 1 tsp/day of liquid fish oil. Interested in upping it to 2 or 3 now for sure! Thanks for sharing..

 

[Justlooking5]

Also, regarding liquid fish oil vs capsules:

According to the Healthy Hearts Club, the body can utilize 98 percent of liquid extract but only 39 to 53 percent of the nutrients from a capsule. The remainder is digested and discarded.

Makes me skeptical that 2 caps of fish oil is really sufficient for bodybuilders. I'll be sticking to a high quality liquid. https://www.sfh.com/blog/fish-oil-explained-liquid-vs-capsule/

 

[Jiigzz]

When I was in my best conditioning (circa early 2000s), I was doing cycles of gear, but another thing I did while on or off was take what today would be considered large doses of omega 3s. I used to eat a crapload of flaxseed/Udo's Choice and later liquid fish oil.

I recently read about Poliquin's recommendation (can't find the original article now) that to gain mass you should try eating 30-45g of fish oil per day, which is really only 2-3 tablespoons, or about the grams of fat in 1/2 lbs. of salmon: https://www.google.com/#q=1+lb+salmon+nutrition

Anyway, so I have been taking a measly 2-3g of fish oil per day for awhile, and decided to up it to 30g/day. I started noticing improvements in mood and motivation, and my recovery seems better. Libido is higher, and I feel clearer headed as well.

This morning I took 10g prior to training, and I looked way better in the gym today than I have in awhile. I looked fairly "enhanced," I thought. Muscles were pumped/"blown up" looking and hard but I looked cut and vascular at the same time, more like back in the old days. Lately, I've felt I have looked more smooth and soft but today was a big difference. Though no real difference in strength.

Poliquin says you can't be anabolic without enough omega-3s. I am guessing I have been deficient in omega-3s as I rarely eat fish (local food store only has crappy frozen salmon) and mainly eat grass fed meats, chicken etc. so upping the omega 3s has helped me more than it might other people.

However, I was thinking about how back in the early 2000s many of us were eating tons of flaxseed, udo's choice, fish oil, several tablespoons at a time, probably 50-80g+ omega-3s per day. Today, people are doing like 2g as the standard dose of fish oil caps.

I know fish oil can thin the blood, but if you're eating a 1/2 to 1 lbs. of fish per day living in Asia for example, you're presumably getting at least 30-60g of fish oil.

Are we neglecting the benefits of higher dose omega-3s?

(BTW, I am using a "freshly caught" brand where it tells you when it was packaged (recently) and supposedly it is free of PCBs, metals etc. I've read freshness/low toxins can be important in terms of getting good results.

He does actually have a point, believe it or not. Studies even demonstrate benefit in healthy populations

Can you gain muscle without high dosages? Sure. But often it can be had cheap enough that it should be something people do.

 

[Justlooking5]

I usually take about 1 tsp/day of liquid fish oil. Interested in upping it to 2 or 3 now for sure! Thanks for sharing..

Let us know if you notice any benefit. Also, could be worth trying 1 tbsp. in your pre-training meal as it supposedly increases NO release and boosts mTOR.

These data suggest that a substantial dose of fish oil, but not low doses, activates the RBC l-arginine-NO pathway without resulting in oxidative damage.

In contrast, diets rich in lard (i.e., saturated fats) led to NOS expression and activity impairment.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25317541

Maybe that partially explains the pumped up/vascular look today (increase NOS).

 

[bb333]

Fish Oil, Omega-3 is different?
Right?

Mainly, eg, 5 g of fish oil, omega 3 contains many?

Krill oil is the same thing?

 

[Ricky10]

Also, regarding liquid fish oil vs capsules:



Makes me skeptical that 2 caps of fish oil is really sufficient for bodybuilders. I'll be sticking to a high quality liquid. https://www.sfh.com/blog/fish-oil-explained-liquid-vs-capsule/

Yeah...I have been taking liquid for about ten years. That was about the time my chiro and then an acupuncturist told me that I was simply wasting my money on fish oil capsules. Have not looked back since..

Turns out the acupuncture was a waste of money too though..:hump:

 

[Jiigzz]

Also, regarding liquid fish oil vs capsules:



Makes me skeptical that 2 caps of fish oil is really sufficient for bodybuilders. I'll be sticking to a high quality liquid. https://www.sfh.com/blog/fish-oil-explained-liquid-vs-capsule/

See the below.

 

[Jiigzz]

I did a quick search myself, and maybe that is the case! I haven't read much into it, but if it is emulsified, then that is a bonus: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701654/

 

[Justlooking5]

I did a quick search myself, and maybe that is the case! I haven't read much into it, but if it is emulsified, then that is a bonus: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701654/

Nice, the liquid version of the brand I got mentions it's emulsified for better absorption. Notably, the capsules of the same brand don't mention emulsification.

 

[Justlooking5]

Apparently, the guru Dan Duchaine said EFAs are the most anabolic legal supplement available (at that time). Poliquin seems to be saying something similar, rating fish oil as his #1 supplement in a lot of articles. I wish I knew the rationale but it nevertheless is a strong argument for taking more fish oil than the standard 2 caps a day.

New findings are beginning to surface that suggest it's not just a lack of fat but also a deficiency in the essential fatty acids that causes testosterone to plummet because the EFAs provide the necessary building blocks for hormones like testosterone. Research indicates that EFAs can improve the action of insulin, decrease muscle breakdown, increase growth hormone secretion and optimize hormone production.

... bodybuilding author and researcher Dan Duchaine said that EFAs are the most anabolic legal supplement available.

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/itrc-anabolic-hormone-stack/

(Note: that article is selling something but I assume the quote from Duchaine is accurate as I've read it elsewhere.)

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Interesting...

Subbed to this for sure.

 

[Beta]

Subbed for the gains

 

[kbayne]

Wouldn't be doing this high dose protocol. Article I saved from a few years ago when ppl were discussing this. Coop had his thoughts as being negative as well:

https://chriskresser.com/when-it-comes-to-fish-oil-more-is-not-better/

 

[Nac]

Wouldn't be doing this high dose protocol. Article I saved from a few years ago when ppl were discussing this. Coop had his thoughts as being negative as well:

https://chriskresser.com/when-it-comes-to-fish-oil-more-is-not-better/

Yeah, that and Alan Aragons writings on this topic have me thinking if you end up taking in more than 3-4gm epa/dha per day, its probably not going to be good for long term health at all.

 

[deanX]

Good to know, especially that high percentage of absorption with liquid fish oil.

 

[pro45]

Alan Aragon prescribed 6 grams of fish oil a day back when I used him for an off season mass gain diet. he said anything more would be a waste.

 

[kdubson14]

Everyone here talking about grams of fish oil and not grams of EPA and DHA 

 

[LeanEngineer]

I've always just used pills and taken the recommended serving size but after reading this i'm picking up some liquid fish oil!

 

[Devonkev]

A good flax/linseed oil should be around 50% omega 3, not taste like ass, no worries about heavy metals etc. Good option for vegans

 

[rowz4broz]

interesting... op what brand of liquid fish oil do u use? and hows the taste

 

[Beta]

Everything I've read seems to recommend against taking fish oil before training due to its anti-inflammatory properties. Anyone able to speak on this?

 

[Jiigzz]

A good flax/linseed oil should be around 50% omega 3, not taste like ass, no worries about heavy metals etc. Good option for vegans

not all omegas 3s are created equal

 

[rascal14]

Maybe I should start supplementing fish oil since I never eat fish lol

 

[Ricky10]

I've always just used pills and taken the recommended serving size but after reading this i'm picking up some liquid fish oil!

interesting... op what brand of liquid fish oil do u use? and hows the taste

Not sure what brand OP uses...mine does not seem to indicate whether it is emulsified or not. However, it is the most "trusted" and probably most popular brand in the industry, and has always treated me well. Begins with a "C". Seems you can't even mention anything positive or recommend products from non-sponsor companies so that is all I will say in reference to that. Liquid certainly gives you more bang for your buck than capsules...as well as increased bioavailability. They are usually lemon or orange flavored. I have never tried the orange but the lemon flavor has no fishy taste to it at all and is quite palatable. Something to watch out for are the brands that contain soybean oil as well...you don't want that..

 

[Jiigzz]

Not sure what brand OP uses...mine does not seem to indicate whether it is emulsified or not. However, it is the most "trusted" and probably most popular brand in the industry, and has always treated me well. Begins with a "C". Seems you can't even mention anything positive or recommend products from non-sponsor companies so that is all I will say in reference to that. Liquid certainly gives you more bang for your buck than capsules...as well as increased bioavailability. They are usually lemon or orange flavored. I have never tried the orange but the lemon flavor has no fishy taste to it at all and is quite palatable. Something to watch out for are the brands that contain soybean oil as well...you don't want that..

Controlled labs?

 

[Jiigzz]

Not sure what brand OP uses...mine does not seem to indicate whether it is emulsified or not. However, it is the most "trusted" and probably most popular brand in the industry, and has always treated me well. Begins with a "C". Seems you can't even mention anything positive or recommend products from non-sponsor companies so that is all I will say in reference to that. Liquid certainly gives you more bang for your buck than capsules...as well as increased bioavailability. They are usually lemon or orange flavored. I have never tried the orange but the lemon flavor has no fishy taste to it at all and is quite palatable. Something to watch out for are the brands that contain soybean oil as well...you don't want that..

Controlled labs?

 

[kdubson14]

Definitely Carlson

 

[Devonkev]

not all omegas 3s are created equal

Really, how come? So omega 3 from fish is different to omega 3 from plants?

 

[Jiigzz]

Really, how come? So omega 3 from fish is different to omega 3 from plants?

Yep. Different forms to do not covert to epa/ dha readily and so they are not a substitute for fish

 

[kisaj]

I am curious the need or benefit from fish oil. I don't take it and my lipids and CBC on TRT are always spot on. I don't know anyone that I lift with or train with (krav maga, muay thai) that takes it and they state their labs are always good.

So, for those that put their bodies through intense workouts and recovery, what is the reasoning behind needing to add in any fish oil, especially with studies linking it to increased risk of prostate cancer.

 

[pro45]

I am curious the need or benefit from fish oil. I don't take it and my lipids and CBC on TRT are always spot on. I don't know anyone that I lift with or train with (krav maga, muay thai) that takes it and they state their labs are always good.

So, for those that put their bodies through intense workouts and recovery, what is the reasoning behind needing to add in any fish oil, especially with studies linking it to increased risk of prostate cancer.

Flax seed oil is far worse. For men.

 

[kisaj]

Ok, but I am questioning the need to add fish oil and the benefits, not what is worse.

 

[rascal14]

I am curious the need or benefit from fish oil. I don't take it and my lipids and CBC on TRT are always spot on. I don't know anyone that I lift with or train with (krav maga, muay thai) that takes it and they state their labs are always good.

So, for those that put their bodies through intense workouts and recovery, what is the reasoning behind needing to add in any fish oil, especially with studies linking it to increased risk of prostate cancer.

I've never used fish oil and I stopped taking multivitamins a couple years ago and have never had any issues with blood work either. I am younger than most here, but still.

 

[mn72661]

i would think random numbers on epa/dha supplementation are a crapshoot at best without bloodwork (i haven't gotten any myself just yet) . Even privatemdlabs has an omega blood test for less than $100 without a coupon code. Depending how far out of whack someones ratio is, from the ideal omega3/6 ratio of 1:1, I can easily see mega dosing for a short period being of value, depending on how quickly one is trying to get back to ideal. Pinpointing an exact dosage to do seems like it would be extremely challenging, however after a blood test, one should be able to gauge a reasonable dosage. I think Poliquin's Biosignature course had a protocol for this, but i'm not sure. Any Biosig practitioners have any thoughts on this or anyone else for that matter?

This may be naively idealistic on my part, but i would think a little up front money through a could blood test should be able to get someone in range and, with a truly pinpoint diet, allow for minimal supplementation in order to maintain this, thus saving money in the long run.

 

[mn72661]

Regarding the link to increased risk of prostate cancer, I've only come across multiple studies actually indicating the opposite. I certainly could've missed other ones though. Can't post link, but title and authors are below. Granted it is from lifeextension.com so essentially all naturopathic docs, but other literature is out there. The big study everyone seems to reference, again could be more out there i haven't kept up to speed on it at all fro a while, was seriously flawed and the observations on omega-3 and prostate cancer weren't the objective of the study.


Fish and Prostate Cancer Risk: Fact or Fiction
By William Faloon, Luke Huber, ND, MBA, Kira Schmid, ND, Blake Gossard, Scott Fogle, ND

 

[Jiigzz]

I am curious the need or benefit from fish oil. I don't take it and my lipids and CBC on TRT are always spot on. I don't know anyone that I lift with or train with (krav maga, muay thai) that takes it and they state their labs are always good.

So, for those that put their bodies through intense workouts and recovery, what is the reasoning behind needing to add in any fish oil, especially with studies linking it to increased risk of prostate cancer.

I honestly think people just take it because other people take it. I haven't for years and my blood work is always fine.

Definitely overrated IMO

 

[NoAddedHmones]

I honestly think people just take it because other people take it. I haven't for years and my blood work is always fine.

Definitely overrated IMO

Pretty much, same with lots of supps people take these days.

Eat a piece of fatty fish every now and then and you are set.

 

[kisaj]

I honestly think people just take it because other people take it. I haven't for years and my blood work is always fine.

Definitely overrated IMO

Thank you for making me feel sane reading all the fish oil threads popping up here and other sites lately.

Jiigzz, always right in line with you.

 

[Justlooking5]

Hey, just to provide an update. So I have been taking about 3 tbsp. of Barlean's fish oil pina colada flavor every day since I started upping the dose.

It's hard to tell what is doing what obviously, but I do think it is helping me gain size and look harder and more muscular in the gym instead of smoother/flatter like before.

Most importantly, my weight has increased from 215 lbs. about 10 days ago (prior to high dose fish oil) to 220.8 lbs measured on my scale at work in the morning yesterday. Note that both weight measurements are with clothes on and after the first meal, but my meal and clothes were the same both times and my weight is usually pretty consistent on that scale.

So I have gained about 3-5 lbs. in the past 10 days. Also, my arm measurement has increased but I'm still about as lean. Now keep in mind, my peak weight from years ago is about 238 and peak arm measurement (on gear years ago) was 17.75 pumped while fairly lean. Yesterday I measured near 16.75 which was an increase of about .25 I think, but still within range of my past size. I'm hoping to get past 17" pumped on my current bulking phase.

What I do think though is that:

1). I was deficient in omega-3s at least in terms of optimal amounts for max anabolism
2). 2-3 caps per day of fish oil doesn't do it
3). When Poliquin says "you can't be anabolic without enough omega-3s," I think he may be on to something. I have been stuck at arms measuring less than 16.5/.75 for awhile, and it seems like my body is in a more anabolic state now and able to support more muscle mass.

I just got back from training legs today and I continued to have that leaner, full, pumped muscled look versus the softer/smoother natty look, and the only change I made was increasing my fish oil from ~2g/day capsules to 30-45g/day liquid. I'll probably stick with 3 tablespoons/day going forward, which as mentioned is around the amount of fat in 1/2 lbs. of salmon.

I'll note again today that strength was good and solid, but not a major jump, more a steady progression since last week.

 

[pro45]

Justlooking, are you having any bowel issues with 3 tablespoons a day?

 

[Justlooking5]

Justlooking, are you having any bowel issues with 3 tablespoons a day?

No I haven't had any issues.

 

[HIT4ME]

This is an interesting thread. I think one of the issues we have with nutritional ingredients is we look for an ingredient to be "all good" or "all bad". And we place those ingredients in a vacuum - mainly because it is complex enough to figure out if something works when it's taken on its own without considering all the other processes and ingredients going into someone's body on a given day.

There are studies showing tremendous benefits of fish oil. There are studies showing downsides. I do know that DHA/EPA is "essential" so we surely need to have it in our diet, and fish oil is the best way to get it. Long term over use may evoke downsides.

I am becoming more and more convinced as I learn things that we need to start thinking of our body as an adaptive machine. Our body often has multiple pathways to achieve an outcome. For instance, if our brain needs energy it wants carbohydrates - but of course evolution has realized that carbohydrates are not always available in our diet, so we have a "backup" plan to use ketones. Some people vary their diet and go into ketosis and then into carbohydrate metabolism, etc. A lot of people in modern society, however, have plentiful carbohydrate sources - so they NEVER use a backup system. Over years, their carbohydrate system becomes overwhelmed, never gets a rest and things start to break. Insulin resistance, cardiovasular issues, NO issues, maybe dementia and AD all show connections to these "breaks". Of course, by that point your ketone backup system hasn't been used for a while so it's impaired for the opposite reason. This is all hypothesis and theory I'm saying, but take a look at research into all these areas....it all adds up.

In that light - we often think we need "this nutrient" every day. Mutlivitamins and daily supplements really make us believe this - like if I miss this multi today I will be missing out on something. But, really, we are better off going through periods of having and not having these ingredients.

In other words, my take on fish oil is - 30-50 grams has a place. It can be useful but I would use it short term like this and make sure I was otherwise healthy. For long term use, 5-10 g/day is much more reasonable. And periods without it are probably good too.

Glad I could clear that up. haha.

 

[bb333]

This is an interesting thread. I think one of the issues we have with nutritional ingredients is we look for an ingredient to be "all good" or "all bad". And we place those ingredients in a vacuum - mainly because it is complex enough to figure out if something works when it's taken on its own without considering all the other processes and ingredients going into someone's body on a given day.

There are studies showing tremendous benefits of fish oil. There are studies showing downsides. I do know that DHA/EPA is "essential" so we surely need to have it in our diet, and fish oil is the best way to get it. Long term over use may evoke downsides.

I am becoming more and more convinced as I learn things that we need to start thinking of our body as an adaptive machine. Our body often has multiple pathways to achieve an outcome. For instance, if our brain needs energy it wants carbohydrates - but of course evolution has realized that carbohydrates are not always available in our diet, so we have a "backup" plan to use ketones. Some people vary their diet and go into ketosis and then into carbohydrate metabolism, etc. A lot of people in modern society, however, have plentiful carbohydrate sources - so they NEVER use a backup system. Over years, their carbohydrate system becomes overwhelmed, never gets a rest and things start to break. Insulin resistance, cardiovasular issues, NO issues, maybe dementia and AD all show connections to these "breaks". Of course, by that point your ketone backup system hasn't been used for a while so it's impaired for the opposite reason. This is all hypothesis and theory I'm saying, but take a look at research into all these areas....it all adds up.

In that light - we often think we need "this nutrient" every day. Mutlivitamins and daily supplements really make us believe this - like if I miss this multi today I will be missing out on something. But, really, we are better off going through periods of having and not having these ingredients.

In other words, my take on fish oil is - 30-50 grams has a place. It can be useful but I would use it short term like this and make sure I was otherwise healthy. For long term use, 5-10 g/day is much more reasonable. And periods without it are probably good too.

Glad I could clear that up. haha.

Yes, okay, but what are the benefits for an amount so high?

 

[dbuckley82]

A few years back I experimented with high dosages of fish oil, Liquid form from Vitacost, and I was taking the equivilent of 22 capsules a day, for months. Id be lying if I said I noticed any huge benefit. My guess is there must be a saturation point.

 

[HIT4ME]

Yes, okay, but what are the benefits for an amount so high?

Keep in mind, I'm not making claims people should do this - just that if you do, it is probably beneficial to not do it ALL the time.

I think it's just a matter of fish oil's function - potent anti-inflammatory, mental health, etc. High doses over 20 g supposedly have shown benefits in depression, and if you have a lot of inflammation it may be beneficial to take high doses in order to get that back in control.

But I hypothesis what happens is that some people are really out of whack and have underlying issues, some of which they may not really notice or know about even, and they mega dose fish oil and it swings things back in line and they think it's a miracle when really they were deficient and the higher doses are just getting them back to normal.

Kind of like when you are Vitamin D deficient - you go to a doctor and he gives you mega doses to bring those up with a prescription then after you're stable you just use a regular OTC vitamin to maintain. Well, if you're eating a ton of Omega 6 for years, have chronic inflammation or other issues, 40 g may get you back in line and then you fall back to a sustainable dose. And, as I said above - even go periods without it at all.

A few years back I experimented with high dosages of fish oil, Liquid form from Vitacost, and I was taking the equivilent of 22 capsules a day, for months. Id be lying if I said I noticed any huge benefit. My guess is there must be a saturation point.

Yeah, I just see it like any other nutrient. Taking more doesn't make your body use more - your body will use what it needs and flush out or store what it doesn't need. The issue is when your body can't get what it needs and you fall into a deep deficit.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I didn't follow all the links in this thread, was this posted?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4517018/

There is another more recent one with the same outcome (I think, or this may be the one).

I've switched to eating 1 complete can of Salmon, twice a week - instead of the daily ~3g I used to do.

 

[jt75]

Sardines and mackerel are another excellent source of omegas

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Sardines and mackerel are another excellent source of omegas

What's the cost per ounce though? Chicken of the Sea or Starkist Salmon (~1.2g DHA/EPA per serving - 7 servings per can) is a little over $2 in my area.

 

[JDybya]

I didn't follow all the links in this thread, was this posted?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4517018/

There is another more recent one with the same outcome (I think, or this may be the one).

I've switched to eating 1 complete can of Salmon, twice a week - instead of the daily ~3g I used to do.

Started doing the same here. No noticeable difference in joints, gut, or head. But I enjoy it a hell of a lot more. And it just feels more natural, getting the fats from the fish itself - makes sense.