Andro 1 vs andro 4 vs ostarine

[Surp]

Which works best safer and legal in the u.s

 

[LeanEngineer]

I would say a 1 and 4 andro run would get you the best results.

 

[vujade]

Which works best safer and legal in the u.s

Which works best, for what results...?

For cutting - Ostarine
For Bulking - 1-Andro
For a Test Base - 4-Andro

1-Andro and 4-Andro are both legal to buy and possess in the USA.

Ostarine is gray market. It is legal to purchase, but technically it is illegal for them to sell it.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I honestly dont think ostarine is "legal" to buy due to the DASCA laws. Could be wrong though

 

[cheftepesh1]

I'm going to agree with most here that a 1 and 4 run would be the best.

 

[NurseGray]

1 Andro and 4 Andro will be your best legal options. You can look at products like 1-AD and Androdiol by Hi-Tech Pharma. Or if you want a combo product look at Superdol 3 tabs daily for 6 weeks. In any event always make sure you follow up with a SERM and/or a Quality OTC PCT like Form-XT or Estrogenix 2nd Generation.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I did a 1 and 4 DHEA cycle while in a deficit and made some really good strength gains (IIRC Squat went up 25lbs in 8 weeks). At the time, I *was* a bit on the fat side though. When I was leaner, I used Ostarine in a cut, and my Deadlift kept going up (don't recall the numbers ATM). So it's hard to say if you are cutting. Recomp/Lean Bulk - 1 and 4 all day. But Ostarine no shjt worked well for me in a deficit, it's an actual directly active drug, and was proven in Phase Trials to keep lean mass (at way lower dosages). The only reason development ceased, was because the FDA wanted it to also *build* muscle. From a legal/safety standpoint - you are better off with 1 and 4 DHEA. 1-Andro has a good study on it.

 

[Nac]

I honestly dont think ostarine is "legal" to buy due to the DASCA laws. Could be wrong though

Im sure good ole Rick Collins has claimed that SARMs are not captured by current DASCA law.

 

[Nac]

Which works best safer and legal in the u.s

Ostarine is sh1t. I mean, if youre gonna take something that impacts the hpta, go for something that at least gives you a pretty decent shot at adding some lbm. 1andro would be more a sure-thing than osta.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Im sure good ole Rick Collins has claimed that SARMs are not captured by current DASCA law.

they without question are.

 

[Nac]

they without question are.

Comes down to definitions. SARMs are cuurrently ill-defined; they are not supplements, and not prescription drugs. They are in-limbo compounds.

 

[Robert5891]

Before we can recommend some for you, it may help the community here if you described your goals, training history, and current training regimen. Otherwise, you'll get a very diverse and confusing batch of replies.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Comes down to definitions. SARMs are cuurrently ill-defined; they are not supplements, and not prescription drugs. They are in-limbo compounds.

incorrect.

``(C)(i) Subject to clause (ii), a drug or hormonal substance (other
than estrogens, progestins, corticosteroids, and dehydroepiandrosterone)
that is not listed in subparagraph (A) and is derived from, or has a
chemical structure substantially similar to, 1 or more anabolic steroids
listed in subparagraph (A) shall be considered to be an anabolic steroid
for purposes of this Act if--
``(I) the drug or substance has been created or manufactured
with the intent of producing a drug or other substance that
either--
``(aa) promotes muscle growth; or
``(bb) otherwise causes a pharmacological effect
similar to that of testosterone; or
``(II) the drug or substance has been, or is intended to be,
marketed or otherwise promoted in any manner suggesting that
consuming it will promote muscle growth or any other
pharmacological effect similar to that of testosterone.

``(ii) A substance shall not be considered to be a drug or hormonal
substance for purposes of this subparagraph if it--
``(I) is--
``(aa) an herb or other botanical;
``(bb) a concentrate, metabolite, or extract of, or
a constituent isolated directly from, an herb or other
botanical; or
``(cc) a combination of 2 or more substances
described in item (aa) or (bb);
``(II) is a dietary ingredient for purposes of the Federal
Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 301 et seq.); and
``(III) is not anabolic or androgenic.

there is zero argument as to the illegality of SARMs

 

[Nac]

incorrect.




there is zero argument as to the illegality of SARMs

Lol

They are not a supplement. So yes, "illegal" to sell as a supplement. Just as a SERM is.

Not illegal as a "research chem". SARMs are not specifically legally defined/classified. Unlike a SERM which is a prescription drug.

 

[Nac]

Read what Collins has to say. He says on one hand Ostarine is not within the scope of the DASCA...but on the other, he seems to agree that, as an investigational drug, it would be illegal to sell as a supplement.

The likelyhood of any regular Joe being prosecuted/fined for purchasing personal-use amounts of a SARM? Highly unlikely.

http://www.steroidlaw.com/2016/02/ostarine-dietary-supplements-and-the-law/

 

[VaughnTrue]

Read what Collins has to say. He says on one hand Ostarine is not within the scope of the DASCA...but on the other, he seems to agree that, as an investigational drug, it would be illegal to sell as a supplement.

The likelyhood of any regular Joe being prosecuted/fined for purchasing personal-use amounts of a SARM? Highly unlikely.

http://www.steroidlaw.com/2016/02/ostarine-dietary-supplements-and-the-law/

highly unlikely, I agree. Still TECHNICALLY illegal, yes.

jaywalking...highly unlikely to receive a citation, still technically illegal, yes.

 

[AntM1564]

1 Andro and 4 Andro will be your best legal options. You can look at products like 1-AD and Androdiol by Hi-Tech Pharma. Or if you want a combo product look at Superdol 3 tabs daily for 6 weeks. In any event always make sure you follow up with a SERM and/or a Quality OTC PCT like Form-XT or Estrogenix 2nd Generation.

There should not be an or in that statement.

 

[VaughnTrue]

I disagree so many effective pcts run with non serms

 

[UNbuff]

I disagree so many effective pcts run with non serms

which ones

 

[VaughnTrue]

which ones

There are TONS of guys on the forums who have shown you can run an effective OTC PCT

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/197883-bringing-boys-back.html

 

[NurseGray]

There are TONS of guys on the forums who have shown you can run an effective OTC PCT

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/197883-bringing-boys-back.html

Completley agree. In fact ALL of my cycles have been run with OTC PCT including an 8 week SuperDrol run. Maybe it's me or maybe I'm just not running a crazy amount of product. What ever the case I do get enough results to make me happy and I have never run into any rebound issues.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Most PCT's run with SERMs, on healthy youngish males, will have their Total Testosterone numbers over 1,000 in 8 weeks. That's probably being conservative - 52 year old member fit1962 was over 1300 in 8 weeks for an Ostarine PCT.

User Uncle SARM also did an 8 week Ostarine cycle, but used an OTC PCT. In 8 weeks he got to about 75 points less than he started.

Detailed blood work being posted on here is fairly rare, so unfortunately we don't have numerous examples to study. Both of those are find-able with the search function.

I would think that after a DRUG cycle, in reference to keeping all the additional muscle one added during the cycle *and* quality of life metrics, that their primary goal would be to get their natural production of the anabolic/androgenic hormone Testosterone as high and as fast as possible. A DRUG would do this better than an OTC PCT product. IMO - suppress with drugs = recover with drugs - but it's a personal choice.

Can an OTC PCT get you back to around/at/slightly above baseline? Sure - how long will it take, and what will your numbers be at each step of the way, comparatively?

Can doing nothing but stopping the cycle get you back to around/at/slightly above baseline? Sure - how long will it take, and what will your numbers be at each step of the way, comparatively?

You'd have to compare those last two items, to see exactly what is being brought to the table speed and level wise - but neither are *better* than a SERM IMO.

I'd really like to start a thread titled "I'll Take Drugs, But Not SERMs" - and see the thought process behind the willingness to take 1-Testosterone, but not Clomiphene or Tamoxifen

 

[VaughnTrue]

My issue lays solely with research chemicals. if you have access to pharm grade SERMS, have at it. I do not trust RC whatsoever.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

My issue lays solely with research chemicals. if you have access to pharm grade SERMS, have at it. I do not trust RC whatsoever.

Valid for sure. It sucks that you have to be Dick Tracy to find a good RC (if you can't get Rx, which could take ALL DAY ). I get Hot Flashes like a Mofo on legit Clomid, so it's easy to do a test - but I hear ya.

 

[EricMM]

Which works best safer and legal in the u.s

1-Andro is great. It's a really clean compound and can do a lot to help you with your goals. I'd use 1-Testosterone from Hi-Tech or 1-Andro from LG Sciences. Both great products. You do need to eat, just add in a small amount of 4-Andro only if you need it.

 

[EricMM]

My issue lays solely with research chemicals. if you have access to pharm grade SERMS, have at it. I do not trust RC whatsoever.

Completely. Sludge at the bottom. Improper mixing. No idea what you are dosing and taking. I want no part of Research based SERMS.

 

[AntM1564]

There are TONS of guys on the forums who have shown you can run an effective OTC PCT

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/197883-bringing-boys-back.html

Here is the issue, most people are not going to get bloodwork. If one can get bloodwork, MAYBE I would say some things do not need a SERM. However, we all need to keep in mind that we all react and rebound differently. I would always suggest to run a SERM, just to be on the safe side. I do agree with you on RCs though.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Here is the issue, most people are not going to get bloodwork. If one can get bloodwork, MAYBE I would say some things do not need a SERM. However, we all need to keep in mind that we all react and rebound differently. I would always suggest to run a SERM, just to be on the safe side. I do agree with you on RCs though.

the problem is 90%+ of people on here are referring to RC's when they discuss SERMs

 

[UNbuff]

There are TONS of guys on the forums who have shown you can run an effective OTC PCT

]

Thanks

Do you remember a guy on bb.com, and im talking quite a few years ago now. He was from hawai, was in his 40'si, ran 3 strong PH's and got completely shutdown.. his blood analysis figure was literally under 10 for free test (or thereabouts) to the shock of his doctor.

He fully recovered using a couple OTC PCT products, with post pct bloodwork. Just wish I could remember his username.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Thanks

Do you remember a guy on bb.com, and im talking quite a few years ago now. He was from hawai, was in his 40'si, ran 3 strong PH's and got completely shutdown.. his blood analysis figure was literally under 10 for free test (or thereabouts) to the shock of his doctor.

He fully recovered using a couple OTC PCT products, with post pct bloodwork. Just wish I could remember his username.

I don't remember that particular one, no.

People seem to forget PCT is a newer idea. Guys ran hormones without any PCT for a LONG time, and they all recovered (not recommended). Everyone on this forum (with others) likes to complicate things so much. Have access to pharm grade serm? go for it. Don't? then use a solid OTC PCT. simple as that.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Thanks

Do you remember a guy on bb.com, and im talking quite a few years ago now. He was from hawai, was in his 40'si, ran 3 strong PH's and got completely shutdown.. his blood analysis figure was literally under 10 for free test (or thereabouts) to the shock of his doctor.

He fully recovered using a couple OTC PCT products, with post pct bloodwork. Just wish I could remember his username.

Here's the thing though - and this goes to ANT's point as well: If you are a healthy male "into fitness/nutrition" guy in his late 20's, early-mid 30's (and maybe even older?) - your body, based on the odds, will recover without doing anything at all. Go ask an endocrinologist what the quickest way is, to get the HPTA to kick back in - he'll tell you "stop the exogenous hormones". It's not really "normal" for the body to stay "shut down forever" - it happens (natty 'til 26 boys!), but it isn't "normal". Go ask a guy from the 70's, 80's or 90's what "PCT" is, and you'll probably get a strange look.

In Vaughn's example, the guy said his pre-cycle level was in the 800's. And after he stopped - it went back up to the 800's. Some will credit the OTC supplement - others will say you would have done the same just using water. I do think OTC will give you a small speed advantage over "natural recovery" though. So, if you absolutely, positively can't get Rx, and won't use RC for some reason - then (don't cycle ) I'd use an OTC too, there's nothing to lose (ie. it doesn't cause damage). Just realize that a SERM may do something like: 200/400/800/1300 and an OTC may do something like: 200/350/425/575 - "gains" retention and "how you feel" are concerns too. "Nothing" may take longer, but likely you will reach the same number IMO.

Edit: Vaughn beat me about the Old School Guys! LOL

 

[VaughnTrue]

Here's the thing though - and this goes to ANT's point as well: If you are a healthy male "into fitness/nutrition" guy in his late 20's, early-mid 30's (and maybe even older?) - your body, based on the odds, will recover without doing anything at all. Go ask an endocrinologist what the quickest way is, to get the HPTA to kick back in - he'll tell you "stop the exogenous hormones". It's not really "normal" for the body to stay "shut down forever" - it happens (natty 'til 26 boys!), but it isn't "normal". Go ask a guy from the 70's, 80's or 90's what "PCT" is, and you'll probably get a strange look.

In Vaughn's example, the guy said his pre-cycle level was in the 800's. And after he stopped - it went back up to the 800's. Some will credit the OTC supplement - others will say you would have done the same just using water. I do think OTC will give you a small speed advantage over "natural recovery" though. So, if you absolutely, positively can't get Rx, and won't use RC for some reason - then (don't cycle ) I'd use an OTC too, there's nothing to lose (ie. it doesn't cause damage). Just realize that a SERM may do something like: 200/400/800/1300 and an OTC may do something like: 200/350/425/575 - "gains" retention and "how you feel" are concerns too. "Nothing" may take longer, but likely you will reach the same number IMO.

Edit: Vaughn beat me about the Old School Guys! LOL

we've been agreeing FAR too much lately.


I don't know what to think about all of this

 

[UNbuff]

Here's the thing though - and this goes to ANT's point as well: If you are a healthy male "into fitness/nutrition" guy in his late 20's, early-mid 30's (and maybe even older?) - your body, based on the odds, will recover without doing anything at all. Go ask an endocrinologist what the quickest way is, to get the HPTA to kick back in - he'll tell you "stop the exogenous hormones". It's not really "normal" for the body to stay "shut down forever" - it happens (natty 'til 26 boys!), but it isn't "normal". Go ask a guy from the 70's, 80's or 90's what "PCT" is, and you'll probably get a strange look.

In Vaughn's example, the guy said his pre-cycle level was in the 800's. And after he stopped - it went back up to the 800's. Some will credit the OTC supplement - others will say you would have done the same just using water. I do think OTC will give you a small speed advantage over "natural recovery" though. So, if you absolutely, positively can't get Rx, and won't use RC for some reason - then (don't cycle ) I'd use an OTC too, there's nothing to lose (ie. it doesn't cause damage). Just realize that a SERM may do something like: 200/400/800/1300 and an OTC may do something like: 200/350/425/575 - "gains" retention and "how you feel" are concerns too. "Nothing" may take longer, but likely you will reach the same number IMO.

Edit: Vaughn beat me about the Old School Guys! LOL

appreciate the real talk

Vaughn as well

ill do some digging for the bb.com link later, im sure i can find it again.

 

[mike33511]

Thanks

Do you remember a guy on bb.com, and im talking quite a few years ago now. He was from hawai, was in his 40'si, ran 3 strong PH's and got completely shutdown.. his blood analysis figure was literally under 10 for free test (or thereabouts) to the shock of his doctor.

He fully recovered using a couple OTC PCT products, with post pct bloodwork. Just wish I could remember his username.

And I'm sure there are other people in a similar situation who weren't so fortunate, and they subsequently had to get on TRT for life. Is that a gamble you want to take?

 

[VaughnTrue]

And I'm sure there are other people in a similar situation who weren't so fortunate, and they subsequently had to get on TRT for life. Is that a gamble you want to take?

A guy I know lost his balls in a weird vacuum incident. This is why I dont use vacuums now

 

[The_Old_Guy]

A guy I know lost his balls in a weird vacuum incident. This is why I dont use vacuums now

He should have reversed the switch - it's called a *blow* job.

 

[sarge40]

That's what happens when you use a Flowbee to trim the nads. (Flowbee reference may be lost on some of you younger guys.)

 

[UNbuff]

And I'm sure there are other people in a similar situation who weren't so fortunate, and they subsequently had to get on TRT for life. Is that a gamble you want to take?

Steroids alone are a gamble.

A guy I know lost his balls in a weird vacuum incident. This is why I dont use vacuums now

Are u srs?

 

[EricMM]

Yeah it's really gotten bro lore heavy with the SERMS. I agree order a SERM that's dosed properly and I'd stay off the research chems that don't dissolve like Tamoxifen and Clomid.