Turkesterone

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by baxmax View Post
    @Danes,

    I believe he's referring to tbis part :
    "Succinic acid has recently been identified as an oncometabolite or an endogenous, cancer causing metabolite. High levels of this organic acid can be found in tumors or biofluids surrounding tumors. Its oncogenic action appears to due to its ability to inhibit prolyl hydroxylase-containing enzymes."
    Succinic acid is used as a main active ingredient in a some supps in Eastern Europe (supports immune system etc) @corsaking
    Improved bioavailability is always ++++.
    Standardized ATE is a pretty expensive ingredient and if you can improve it's bioavailability x2 fold it will mean you can get the same pwrformace at lower dosages.
    I'm yet to understand the mechanism of how succinic acid doubles ATE's bioavailability...2 fold. With such claims, a company needs to have in vivo testing/clinical trial showing the concentration of actives in blood plasma :
    1) placebo 2) ATE 3) ATE + Succinic acid.
    For example, that's why companies adding piperine don't claim a certain bioavailability increase, but claiming "the improved bioavailability/absorption" in general.
    I knew what he was thinking of but the doses need to be huge and even then its not 100% sure it will cause cancer. There are many cancer causing things (which are involved) such as our own mTOR upregulating hormones etc.

    On the other hand,Succinc acid derivatives/isomers actually show to be potent/promising anticancer compound.

    I also wonder where is the study proving succinic acid makes ecdysteroids 2x effective ? And even IF that study exist on animals, its not fair anyway because it may be totaly different in humans. Maybe in humans it has oposite effect


  2. Quote Originally Posted by jt75 View Post
    There's one guy on here (mixelflick aka rob Regish)who I usually count on for supplement and ingredient advice who knows tons about ecdysterone.
    If he doesn't know then it's probably not worth knowing so I'm gonna shoot him a message to see what he thinks cos turk seems to be the favoured ecdysterone.
    Thanks for the intro. Just saw this but wanted to give my 2cc's...

    I have run every ecdysterone brought to market over the past 25 years, and have a fair amount of experience with Turkesterone (from both Tonovara and Thermolife when they carried it). Long story short: It's not the best Ecdy for what most here would use it for (increased protein synthesis, size and strength/recovery). It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose (http://www.ergo-log.com/the-unusual-...kestanica.html). To quote the article directly..

    "So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot."

    It's not totally useless, as I did notice a marked improvement in my VO2 max. This may go back to its proposed ability to boost red blood cell count. I never had bloodwork run to test that, but believe Danes did. As such, you may want to PM him..

    With respect to Ecdy in general, it's my position that full spectrum RCE is what people should be using. In fact, they are still discovering new ecdysteroids inherent in this source genus. I've used boatloads of it over the years, including a sterile injectable made by none other than a certain well known chemist in the field (not sure if he posts here). I found that to be a fantastic product, albeit it'll never be commercially available. The various ecdysteroids (there are now 503 identified - http://ecdybase.org/) do not function as "anabolic" steroids and any such expectation needs to be tempered.

    As an adjunct to periodized training and especially planned over-reaching/tapering and recovery from such, they are welcome additions to the sports nutrition field...
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Thanks for the intro. Just saw this but wanted to give my 2cc's...

    I have run every ecdysterone brought to market over the past 25 years, and have a fair amount of experience with Turkesterone (from both Tonovara and Thermolife when they carried it). Long story short: It's not the best Ecdy for what most here would use it for (increased protein synthesis, size and strength/recovery). It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose (http://www.ergo-log.com/the-unusual-...kestanica.html). To quote the article directly..

    "So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot."

    It's not totally useless, as I did notice a marked improvement in my VO2 max. This may go back to its proposed ability to boost red blood cell count. I never had bloodwork run to test that, but believe Danes did. As such, you may want to PM him..

    With respect to Ecdy in general, it's my position that full spectrum RCE is what people should be using. In fact, they are still discovering new ecdysteroids inherent in this source genus. I've used boatloads of it over the years, including a sterile injectable made by none other than a certain well known chemist in the field (not sure if he posts here). I found that to be a fantastic product, albeit it'll never be commercially available. The various ecdysteroids (there are now 503 identified - http://ecdybase.org/) do not function as "anabolic" steroids and any such expectation needs to be tempered.

    As an adjunct to periodized training and especially planned over-reaching/tapering and recovery from such, they are welcome additions to the sports nutrition field...
    From the study:
    'most*Ajuga turkestanica*extracts available on the market only contain about 2 percent ecdysteroids. So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot."

    To get 400mg ecdysteroids from an ATE standardized to 2% ecdysteroids, you need to take 8g like suggested in the study.
    But ICPS ATE is standardized for 30% ecdysteroids (1.33g = 400mg ecdysteroid)

    I have tried Leuzea at higher doses and I have tried ATE at higher doses. For me, ATE was definitely much better.
    -more energy
    -better mood
    -even increased libido
    -strength
    -size
    -endurance

    ATE has plenty of ecdysteroids and its more than just Turkesterone

    Sadly, Ecdysteroids do have bad rep due to many products claiming to contain Ecdysteroids and then when lab testing them, it show no ecdysteroids at all.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Danes View Post
    I knew what he was thinking of but the doses need to be huge and even then its not 100% sure it will cause cancer. There are many cancer causing things (which are involved) such as our own mTOR upregulating hormones etc.

    On the other hand,Succinc acid derivatives/isomers actually show to be potent/promising anticancer compound.

    I also wonder where is the study proving succinic acid makes ecdysteroids 2x effective ? And even IF that study exist on animals, its not fair anyway because it may be totaly different in humans. Maybe in humans it has oposite effect
    Good call Danes

    As a component of the krebs cycle, succinic acid It's one of many (pantothenic acid is another) intermediary compounds that are necessary to generate cellular energy for tissue fuel. The threory is that supplementing just one of these would produce miraculous results. But it's not that simple..

    Years ago, (circa 1990) Dan Duchaine was tinkering with krebs cycle intermediates and elected to bring a succinic acid product to market. By his own account, it was a gigantic failure. Doubly so, when again according to Duchaine he was looking at using creatine but thought succinic acid would work better. It's not entirely useless. But it's much like complexing shilajit's fulvic acids with tomatodine... there's just not enough horsepower there in the parent compound to register with most users..

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Good call Danes

    As a component of the krebs cycle, succinic acid It's one of many (pantothenic acid is another) intermediary compounds that are necessary to generate cellular energy for tissue fuel. The threory is that supplementing just one of these would produce miraculous results. But it's not that simple..

    Years ago, (circa 1990) Dan Duchaine was tinkering with krebs cycle intermediates and elected to bring a succinic acid product to market. By his own account, it was a gigantic failure. Doubly so, when again according to Duchaine he was looking at using creatine but thought succinic acid would work better. It's not entirely useless. But it's much like complexing shilajit's fulvic acids with tomatodine... there's just not enough horsepower there in the parent compound to register with most users..
    Good points for sure

    Succinic has its effect but as a drug carrier, it need to be done more with it than just simple mixing with a compound
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by Danes View Post
    Good points for sure

    Succinic has its effect but as a drug carrier, it need to be done more with it than just simple mixing with a compound
    Thanks brother. BTW, are you saying you bought ATE direct from ICPS/it's different material than what Tonovara is offering? And how do I rep you. You bring up some excellent points

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Thanks brother. BTW, are you saying you bought ATE direct from ICPS/it's different material than what Tonovara is offering? And how do I rep you. You bring up some excellent points
    Thanks brother

    Boldanic offer ATE directly from ICPS. ICPS confirmed that with a letter actually. Their ATE is standardized for 10% Turkesterone,10% Ecdysterone and 10% other ecdysteroids
    Sent you an email

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Danes View Post
    Thanks brother

    Boldanic offer ATE directly from ICPS. ICPS confirmed that with a letter actually. Their ATE is standardized for 10% Turkesterone,10% Ecdysterone and 10% other ecdysteroids
    Sent you an email
    Thanks so much man. You've done this board a great service by showing others where to find he genuine article. Duchaine was never associated with Ecdysterone, despite what some unscrupulous people pitching an ecdy product (I won't name it as its trash) would have you believe. For those of you under 35/40, I've linked you below to some background on the original "steroid guru"

    http://www.ironmagazine.com/2017/a-l...-dan-duchaine/

    Although his name is associated with steroids, it's critical you understand he went far beyond those compounds. You use a pre-workout? He formulated the original when he rolled out "Ultimate Orange", a blend of (among other compounds) herbal ephedrine and caffeine. How about whey protein? He was the first to discover/bring that to market too.

    Funny story: DEA agents assigned to tail Duchaine were sitting outside his apartment one day and noticed he kept coming and going with clear bags of a mysterious white powder. Salivating over what illegal compound that may be and looking to send Duchaine back to prison, they were miffed to discover that upon seizing those bags its was..... whey protein.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Thanks so much man. You've done this board a great service by showing others where to find he genuine article. Duchaine was never associated with Ecdysterone, despite what some unscrupulous people pitching an ecdy product (I won't name it as its trash) would have you believe. For those of you under 35/40, I've linked you below to some background on the original "steroid guru"

    http://www.ironmagazine.com/2017/a-l...-dan-duchaine/

    Although his name is associated with steroids, it's critical you understand he went far beyond those compounds. You use a pre-workout? He formulated the original when he rolled out "Ultimate Orange", a blend of (among other compounds) herbal ephedrine and caffeine. How about whey protein? He was the first to discover/bring that to market too.

    Funny story: DEA agents assigned to tail Duchaine were sitting outside his apartment one day and noticed he kept coming and going with clear bags of a mysterious white powder. Salivating over what illegal compound that may be and looking to send Duchaine back to prison, they were miffed to discover that upon seizing those bags its was..... whey protein.
    Thanks Rob, Appreciate your kind words
    Thanks for the info

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Thanks for the intro. Just saw this but wanted to give my 2cc's...

    I have run every ecdysterone brought to market over the past 25 years, and have a fair amount of experience with Turkesterone (from both Tonovara and Thermolife when they carried it). Long story short: It's not the best Ecdy for what most here would use it for (increased protein synthesis, size and strength/recovery). It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose (http://www.ergo-log.com/the-unusual-...kestanica.html). To quote the article directly..

    "So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot."

    It's not totally useless, as I did notice a marked improvement in my VO2 max. This may go back to its proposed ability to boost red blood cell count. I never had bloodwork run to test that, but believe Danes did. As such, you may want to PM him..

    With respect to Ecdy in general, it's my position that full spectrum RCE is what people should be using. In fact, they are still discovering new ecdysteroids inherent in this source genus. I've used boatloads of it over the years, including a sterile injectable made by none other than a certain well known chemist in the field (not sure if he posts here). I found that to be a fantastic product, albeit it'll never be commercially available. The various ecdysteroids (there are now 503 identified - http://ecdybase.org/) do not function as "anabolic" steroids and any such expectation needs to be tempered.

    As an adjunct to periodized training and especially planned over-reaching/tapering and recovery from such, they are welcome additions to the sports nutrition field...
    So which products you take now? I taken Boldanic and moves to Tonvara to give a try and see any differences.. the market been bit dead ?

  11. @Mixelflick,

    My name is Max, I saw you on a few forums I came across and didn't have a chance to talk to you till now. =)

    1) " it's my position that full spectrum RCE is what people should be using"
    What do you call a full spectrum RCE? As far as I know there're not too many types of extracts exist
    a) Standardized extracts
    b) Non-standardized extracts (simply 2:1, 10:1...100:1 ratio, when manufacturer use X quantity of a plant material to produce Z much of an extract)
    c) Isolated and Purified plant constituents, not really an extract.
    and why people should be using the full spectrum RCE extract?

    2) " It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose" - "Ajuga turkestanica extracts available on the market only contain about 2 percent ecdysteroids". ATE standardized to 2% of ecdysteroids is pretty weak and it should be pretty affordable at that standardization.

    3) "including a sterile injectable" Please, share your experience on this one.





    Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Thanks for the intro. Just saw this but wanted to give my 2cc's...

    I have run every ecdysterone brought to market over the past 25 years, and have a fair amount of experience with Turkesterone (from both Tonovara and Thermolife when they carried it). Long story short: It's not the best Ecdy for what most here would use it for (increased protein synthesis, size and strength/recovery). It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose (http://www.ergo-log.com/the-unusual-...kestanica.html). To quote the article directly..

    "So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot."

    It's not totally useless, as I did notice a marked improvement in my VO2 max. This may go back to its proposed ability to boost red blood cell count. I never had bloodwork run to test that, but believe Danes did. As such, you may want to PM him..

    With respect to Ecdy in general, it's my position that full spectrum RCE is what people should be using. In fact, they are still discovering new ecdysteroids inherent in this source genus. I've used boatloads of it over the years, including a sterile injectable made by none other than a certain well known chemist in the field (not sure if he posts here). I found that to be a fantastic product, albeit it'll never be commercially available. The various ecdysteroids (there are now 503 identified - Ecdybase does not support Netscape 4) do not function as "anabolic" steroids and any such expectation needs to be tempered.

    As an adjunct to periodized training and especially planned over-reaching/tapering and recovery from such, they are welcome additions to the sports nutrition field...

  12. Mass max xt Conrains RCE full spectrum for ecdy. Etc.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by dvw View Post
    Mass max xt Conrains RCE full spectrum for ecdy. Etc.
    Huuum, intresting but not enough detail on where sourced from and exact process of extraction, bit sceptical..

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post
    Thanks for the intro. Just saw this but wanted to give my 2cc's...

    I have run every ecdysterone brought to market over the past 25 years, and have a fair amount of experience with Turkesterone (from both Tonovara and Thermolife when they carried it). Long story short: It's not the best Ecdy for what most here would use it for (increased protein synthesis, size and strength/recovery). It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose (http://www.ergo-log.com/the-unusual-...kestanica.html). To quote the article directly..

    "So if you weigh 80 kg, you'd need 8 g extract daily. And that's a lot."

    It's not totally useless, as I did notice a marked improvement in my VO2 max. This may go back to its proposed ability to boost red blood cell count. I never had bloodwork run to test that, but believe Danes did. As such, you may want to PM him..

    With respect to Ecdy in general, it's my position that full spectrum RCE is what people should be using. In fact, they are still discovering new ecdysteroids inherent in this source genus. I've used boatloads of it over the years, including a sterile injectable made by none other than a certain well known chemist in the field (not sure if he posts here). I found that to be a fantastic product, albeit it'll never be commercially available. The various ecdysteroids (there are now 503 identified - http://ecdybase.org/) do not function as "anabolic" steroids and any such expectation needs to be tempered.

    As an adjunct to periodized training and especially planned over-reaching/tapering and recovery from such, they are welcome additions to the sports nutrition field...
    Less effective Ecdysterone (aka Beta-ecdysterone or 20-hydroxyecdysone) that can be produced from several different plant sources, most of which produce low grade and inconsistent extracts, is often passed off as Turkesterone. The two main sources are Cyanotis Vaga and Rhaponticum Carthamoides (aka Leuzea Carthamoides or Maral Root) and more recently Cyanotis Arachnoidea. All of these plants can be widely grown, especially in China where they are used to make low grade extracts that are cheap to produce. Whilst it can be conceded that they will provide some limited benefits, any such gains will be relatively insignificant when compared to genuine Ajuga Turkestanica Extract

  15. Quote Originally Posted by 00A View Post
    So which products you take now? I taken Boldanic and moves to Tonvara to give a try and see any differences.. the market been bit dead ?
    What was your experience with exubol?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Wagner83 View Post
    What was your experience with exubol?
    Im no expert but I become intrested in these plants and extracts, all I can say is its a slow process, one bottle will not provide you quick results, you need buy least 3 bottles Exubol.. It made me feel good, slight libido increase and strenght increases, but nothing crazy..you may respond differently to it as everyones body different..

    I think if extraction process is improved it be great, i dont think potency is issue just human absorption.. but i maybe wrong, need to study more and try a few products.. etc good luck

  17. My name is Max, I saw you on a few forums I came across and didn't have a chance to talk to you till now. =)

    1) " it's my position that full spectrum RCE is what people should be using"
    What do you call a full spectrum RCE? As far as I know there're not too many types of extracts exist
    a) Standardized extracts
    b) Non-standardized extracts (simply 2:1, 10:1...100:1 ratio, when manufacturer use X quantity of a plant material to produce Z much of an extract)
    c) Isolated and Purified plant constituents, not really an extract.
    and why people should be using the full spectrum RCE extract?

    A. A "full spectrum" RCE simply refers to the fact that it's not over-standardized for one or more particular ecdysterones. That is, it retains all of the various ecdys inherent in the plant, in the same ratios. For example, some companies standardize RCE for X% 20-hydroxyecdysterone. By doing this, they neglect other key ecdys including a specific grouping variously referred to as the levseins complex. This is a grouping of (depending upon who's literature you read) of 10-12 ecdysteroids in a particular ratio. Start over-standardizing for 20-H and you don't get the leveseins complexes. Nor do you get the various beneficial tannins and resins in RCE..


    2) " It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose" - "Ajuga turkestanica extracts available on the market only contain about 2 percent ecdysteroids". ATE standardized to 2% of ecdysteroids is pretty weak and it should be pretty affordable at that standardization.

    A. This came directly from the commentary on the ergo-log link I provided. What they're trying to say is that most Turkesterone products on the market don't contain anywhere near an effective dose as seen in the study. With most products, you'd have to take up to 8g of the stuff and financially, that's just not in the cards for most people.

    3) "including a sterile injectable" Please, share your experience on this one.

    A. Water based sterile injectable of RCE that I used every day for about a month. Very noticeable increase in recovery, but even more pronounced improvement in lbm vs. fat ratio. My overall bodyweight stayed the same, but my arms especially grew along with other body parts. And that was with no direct arm training, just doing justice to my big pushing/pulling movements. Also, substantial improvement in mood and VO2 max was realized. And that happened fast, within the first 3 days..

  18. @Mixelflick,

    Injectable RCE or inj Ecdysterone?
    What's the total % of Ecdysteroids in the full spectrum RCE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixelflick View Post

    A. A "full spectrum" RCE simply refers to the fact that it's not over-standardized for one or more particular ecdysterones. That is, it retains all of the various ecdys inherent in the plant, in the same ratios. For example, some companies standardize RCE for X% 20-hydroxyecdysterone. By doing this, they neglect other key ecdys including a specific grouping variously referred to as the levseins complex. This is a grouping of (depending upon who's literature you read) of 10-12 ecdysteroids in a particular ratio. Start over-standardizing for 20-H and you don't get the leveseins complexes. Nor do you get the various beneficial tannins and resins in RCE..


    2) " It's also not cost effective at the research proven dose" - "Ajuga turkestanica extracts available on the market only contain about 2 percent ecdysteroids". ATE standardized to 2% of ecdysteroids is pretty weak and it should be pretty affordable at that standardization.

    A. This came directly from the commentary on the ergo-log link I provided. What they're trying to say is that most Turkesterone products on the market don't contain anywhere near an effective dose as seen in the study. With most products, you'd have to take up to 8g of the stuff and financially, that's just not in the cards for most people.

    3) "including a sterile injectable" Please, share your experience on this one.

    A. Water based sterile injectable of RCE that I used every day for about a month. Very noticeable increase in recovery, but even more pronounced improvement in lbm vs. fat ratio. My overall bodyweight stayed the same, but my arms especially grew along with other body parts. And that was with no direct arm training, just doing justice to my big pushing/pulling movements. Also, substantial improvement in mood and VO2 max was realized. And that happened fast, within the first 3 days..

  19. @Mixelflick

    What is your opinion on Retibol? Itīs a Stemmacantha/Rhaponticum Carthamoides root extract, standardized for ecdysteriods.

    And what dose ecdysteriods do you recommend for a male at 90-100kg?
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