Trying to build muscle and lose fat

[Solem]

Alright. I'm 24 and 178lbs at 5'8 with 18% body fat trying to cut down to 12-10 by the summerish.

I lift four days a week and fasted LISS five days a week with HIIT twice a week. Lift in the evenings.

I've seen a lot about Olympus Labs and spoke to their online helper who had suggested

Triumph, conquer, assassinate, epic unleashed, and strength unleashed.

Is there anything else that I could add(read some people using ignite with assassinate) to lose fat and gain muscle?

What kind of timing would I need aside from taking conquer and triumph pre workout?

Also if I buy lecithin, is two tablespoons adequate and is there specific timing for it?

 

[Nac]

Thats heaps man, I wouldnt be adding anything more to that.

You know Tr1umph has soy lecithin as a main ingredient, right?

 

[vujade]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/black-lion-research/279849-follidrone-2-0-a.html

 

[justhere4comm]

You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one.

1. Cut / Minimize muscle loss
2. Bulk / Minimize fat gain
3. Maintain

Physiology 101
Decrease calories to below TDEE to lose
Increase calories above TDEE to gain

Don't waste your money on a giant stack when you don't need to.
There are better ways.

 

[Solem]

You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one.

1. Cut / Minimize muscle loss
2. Bulk / Minimize fat gain
3. Maintain

Physiology 101
Decrease calories to below TDEE to lose
Increase calories above TDEE to gain

Don't waste your money on a giant stack when you don't need to.
There are better ways.

There are sources that say you can not but there are also those that say you can. I don't think them to be mutually exclusive as during my cut I've added lean body mass and still lost body fat. Anecdotal I know.

 

[justhere4comm]

Any citation of actual studies? :study:

 

[VO2Maxima]

You're looking for a significant drop in fat in only a few months. I won't go so far as to say that recomp (gaining muscle while losing fat) is impossible, or even that a small amount of muscle gain on a gradual cut is impossible, because it's not, but it's slow. If you're planning on that kind of cut, I'd focus on fat loss rather than muscle gain for now.

Tr1umph has a good amount of soy lecithin. You don't need to add more (although you'll find that people seem to like to megadose phosphatidic acid...we've seen positive studies at 750mg, less than positive studies at low doses, but I haven't seen anything trying to figure out a maximum dose or point of diminishing returns).
Assass1nate is prior to carb-heavy meals to take advantage of the GDA properties.
Transdermal or oral Ep1c Unleashed and Str3ngth Unleashed? Oral SU take with meals. Oral EU is preworkout. EU TD and DSU is after showering (you could use preworkout too).
If you wanted to use Ignit3, go for it, that's a great stimmed burner, but be careful of your overall stim intake if you're pairing it with Conqu3r. Ignit3 should be taken on an empty stomach away from meals.

 

[Tylerclee]

There are sources that say you can not but there are also those that say you can. I don't think them to be mutually exclusive as during my cut I've added lean body mass and still lost body fat. Anecdotal I know.

If you're new to lifting, consider these newbie gains & never expect it again.

 

[The Express 42]

Gaining muscle and burning fat at the same time is a myth. I believe it is only possible with the use of anabolic steroids and perfect diet. Pick one or the other, cut or lean bulk.

 

[Solem]

You're looking for a significant drop in fat in only a few months. I won't go so far as to say that recomp (gaining muscle while losing fat) is impossible, or even that a small amount of muscle gain on a gradual cut is impossible, because it's not, but it's slow. If you're planning on that kind of cut, I'd focus on fat loss rather than muscle gain for now.

Tr1umph has a good amount of soy lecithin. You don't need to add more (although you'll find that people seem to like to megadose phosphatidic acid...we've seen positive studies at 750mg, less than positive studies at low doses, but I haven't seen anything trying to figure out a maximum dose or point of diminishing returns).
Assass1nate is prior to carb-heavy meals to take advantage of the GDA properties.
Transdermal or oral Ep1c Unleashed and Str3ngth Unleashed? Oral SU take with meals. Oral EU is preworkout. EU TD and DSU is after showering (you could use preworkout too).
If you wanted to use Ignit3, go for it, that's a great stimmed burner, but be careful of your overall stim intake if you're pairing it with Conqu3r. Ignit3 should be taken on an empty stomach away from meals.

I was aiming for June to July and figure it was a reasonable time span if only for the purpose of setting a goal. Fat loss has been slow but steady and only added in cardio a month ago.

I was going for the non stimulant conquer.

Can I do ignite before my fasted cardio then?

Thanks for the reply, exactly what I need and I'll skip the extra lecithin.

 

[justhere4comm]

No. On a cut, you are losing fat and trying to retain muscle.

If you want to utilize *Phosphatidic acid to help retain muscle:
One can get PA from Soy Lecithin Granules $15 (They taste nutty)

Phosphatidic acid enhances mTOR signaling and resistance exercise induced hypertrophy
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4066292/

*Efficacy of phosphatidic acid ingestion on lean body mass, ... strength gains in resistance-trained men
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-9-47

 

[Nac]

I was aiming for June to July and figure it was a reasonable time span if only for the purpose of setting a goal. Fat loss has been slow but steady and only added in cardio a month ago.

I was going for the non stimulant conquer.

Can I do ignite before my fasted cardio then?

Thanks for the reply, exactly what I need and I'll skip the extra lecithin.

Youre going to start on 6 new products at once, or stagger them? I think youre potentially making a mistake if the former.

 

[Solem]

Youre going to start on 6 new products at once, or stagger them? I think youre potentially making a mistake if the former.

I was going to probably do conquer> triumph> assassinate> epic and strength last.

I didn't intend not do I have enough money to start them all at once, I just wanted a better understanding before I went out to buy anything.

 

[Nac]

I was going to probably do conquer> triumph> assassinate> epic and strength last.

I didn't intend not do I have enough money to start them all at once, I just wanted a better understanding before I went out to buy anything.

Course, fair enough. I was thinking primarily of any possible stomach discomfort if you jumped on some of that stuff all at once, with most of it involving prewo dosing. If you got a crook gut, youd have no idea what was causing it.

Specifics aside, I agree that staggering some of it out is possibly getting most value out of your spend.

 

[Solem]

Course, fair enough. I was thinking primarily of any possible stomach discomfort if you jumped on some of that stuff all at once, with most of it involving prewo dosing. If you got a crook gut, youd have no idea what was causing it.

Specifics aside, I agree that staggering some of it out is possibly getting most value out of your spend.

the discomfort briefly crossed my mind and I was also creating a mental timeline because I don't immediately need a fat burner. I wanted to save that for a lower fat percentage but I'm keen on getting triumph and conquer in for my pwo asap.

 

[Nac]

the discomfort briefly crossed my mind and I was also creating a mental timeline because I don't immediately need a fat burner. I wanted to save that for a lower fat percentage but I'm keen on getting triumph and conquer in for my pwo asap.

Yeah I can see good arguments for running conq and tr1 together or one after the other. Tr1 could be considered a prewo itself, so if you staggered it and conq youd have twice the time with different preworkouts (was that what you were thinking?). You could even add some cheap soy lecithin granules to your prewo with the conq in order to lengthen your time on phosphatidic acid (one month conq+soyl....month two tr1).

Lots of ways to skin this cat.

 

[AntM1564]

First off, how long have you been training and been following a structured diet and training program?

 

[Solem]

First off, how long have you been training and been following a structured diet and training program?

three years lifting inconsistently. I got really structured in diet and training in August of last year. Up until February I was consistently losing 4-6 lbs a month so I added cardio in towards the middle of the month and not really losing.

 

[justhere4comm]

Lower your caloric intake and you will lose weight.
It's not really a big secret, and any supplementation is there to give you a slight edge, nothing more. You would do better to try and play with the diet, like cycling carbs, and changing up your routine and exploring something for another angle.

 

[Solem]

Lower your caloric intake and you will lose weight.
It's not really a big secret, and any supplementation is there to give you a slight edge, nothing more. You would do better to try and play with the diet, like cycling carbs, and changing up your routine and exploring something for another angle.

I fully understand dieting I just wanted help with supplements to aid it. Poor diet can't be saved by anything.

 

[LeanEngineer]

You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one.

1. Cut / Minimize muscle loss
2. Bulk / Minimize fat gain
3. Maintain

Physiology 101
Decrease calories to below TDEE to lose
Increase calories above TDEE to gain

Don't waste your money on a giant stack when you don't need to.
There are better ways.

Agreed with this. Make sure your diet is in check for whatever goal you choose. If you want to get to 10% bf I would make your goal to cut and pick up follidrone 2.0 and run it for 8 weeks with a solid diet. Maybe adding in a good fat burner to run along side that as well.

 

[macedog24]

You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one.

1. Cut / Minimize muscle loss
2. Bulk / Minimize fat gain
3. Maintain

Physiology 101
Decrease calories to below TDEE to lose
Increase calories above TDEE to gain

Don't waste your money on a giant stack when you don't need to.
There are better ways.

This is not true. It is just a much harder thing to do . it is called a recomp.

 

[macedog24]

Eat clean but you need to eat to gain muscle like a bulk. I don't mean everything in sight. Hence
The word clean. But you need to do cardio like a cut! For many this is near impossible to do properly. It is much easier to pick One or the other. Your maintaining and/or gaining muscle me while losing fat. Diet must be on point. Your weight/scale won't be your judge the mirror will be especially in the beginning.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

This is not true. It is just a much harder thing to do . it is called a recomp.

This. Hell, there are many studies showing increases in LBM and decreases in fat mass, so it's not just some bros saying that they're bigger and leaner at the same time.

 

[justhere4comm]

This. Hell, there are many studies showing increases in LBM and decreases in fat mass, so it's not just some bros saying that they're bigger and leaner at the same time.

I'd love some citations instead of bros though.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I'd love some citations instead of bros though.

You really want me to cite sources here?

 

[Solem]

I'd love some citations instead of bros though.

McMaster University did a study over four weeks with two groups.

Researchers at McMaster University have uncovered significant new evidence in the quest for the elusive goal of gaining muscle and losing fat, an oft-debated problem for those trying to manage their weight, control their calories and balance their protein consumption.

Scientists have found that it is possible to achieve both, and quickly, but it isn't easy.

For the study, 40 young men underwent a month of hard exercise while cutting dietary energy they would normally require by 40 per cent of what they would normally require.

"It was a gruelling affair," says Stuart Phillips, a professor in the Department of Kinesiology at McMaster and senior investigator on the study. "These guys were in rough shape, but that was part of the plan. We wanted to see how quickly we could get them into shape: lose some fat, but still retain their muscle and improve their strength and fitness," he says.

The researchers divided their subjects into two groups. Both groups went on a low calorie diet, one with higher levels of protein than the other. The higher-protein group experienced muscle gains -- about 2.5 pounds -- despite consuming insufficient energy, while the lower protein group did not add muscle.

The lower-protein group at least had the consolation of not losing muscle, which is a predictable outcome of cutting calories and not working out, say researchers.

"Exercise, particularly lifting weights, provides a signal for muscle to be retained even when you're in a big calorie deficit," says Phillips.

Researchers were intrigued because the high-protein group also lost more body fat.

"We expected the muscle retention" said Phillips, "but were a little surprised by the amount of additional fat loss in the higher protein consuming group."

The results showed that the high-protein group lost about 10.5 pounds and the low protein group only eight pounds. All of the participants, by virtue of the demanding six-days-a-week exercise routines, got stronger, fitter, and generally were in much better shape.

However, researchers caution this regimen is not for everyone.

"We designed this program for overweight young men, although I'm sure it would work for young women too, to get fitter, stronger, and to lose weight fast. It's a tough program and not something that's sustainable or for those looking for quick and easy fix," says Phillips. "We controlled their diets, we supervised the exercise, and we really kept these guys under our 'scientific' thumb for the four weeks the participants were in the study."

Phillips and his team hope to conduct a follow-up study on women and also explore a different approach that he says will be "a little easier and much more sustainable."

 

[Solem]

The only issue if that's what it could be called is that the study doesn't reference their years of experience lifting.

So they were possibly novices instead of seasoned lifters or athletes

 

[macedog24]

You really want me to cite sources here?

So you can lose muscle me and gain fat.
But you don't need to site a source. Lol.
But he wants you to site a source to add muscle and drop fat. Really!!!! Here ill do one better for him. Kevin levrone
Is gaining size at a phenomenal rate and staying lean. As you gain more muscle you burn more calories. Also if your not adding or putting on fat What happens to your body fat % as your lean body mass increases.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

So you can lose muscle me and gain fat.
But you don't need to site a source. Lol.
But he wants you to site a source to add muscle and drop fat. Really!!!! Here ill do one better for him. Kevin levrone
Is gaining size at a phenomenal rate and staying lean. As you gain more muscle you burn more calories. Also if your not adding or putting on fat What happens to your body fat % as your lean body mass increases.

I'm talking gaining LBM and losing fat mass, that's a little different than gaining LBM and not gaining or losing any fat mass, which would still result in a decrease in body fat %. Both are possible though.

 

[justhere4comm]

You really want me to cite sources here?

Yes. Why do you think I asked you?

McMaster University did a study over four weeks with two groups.

Researchers at McMaster University have uncovered significant new evidence in the quest for the elusive goal of gaining muscle and losing fat, an oft-debated problem for those trying to manage their weight, control their calories and balance their protein consumption.

Scientists have found that it is possible to achieve both, and quickly, but it isn't easy.

For the study, 40 young men underwent a month of hard exercise while cutting dietary energy they would normally require by 40 per cent of what they would normally require.

"It was a gruelling affair," says Stuart Phillips, a professor in the Department of Kinesiology at McMaster and senior investigator on the study. "These guys were in rough shape, but that was part of the plan. We wanted to see how quickly we could get them into shape: lose some fat, but still retain their muscle and improve their strength and fitness," he says.

The researchers divided their subjects into two groups. Both groups went on a low calorie diet, one with higher levels of protein than the other. The higher-protein group experienced muscle gains -- about 2.5 pounds -- despite consuming insufficient energy, while the lower protein group did not add muscle.

The lower-protein group at least had the consolation of not losing muscle, which is a predictable outcome of cutting calories and not working out, say researchers.

"Exercise, particularly lifting weights, provides a signal for muscle to be retained even when you're in a big calorie deficit," says Phillips.

Researchers were intrigued because the high-protein group also lost more body fat.

"We expected the muscle retention" said Phillips, "but were a little surprised by the amount of additional fat loss in the higher protein consuming group."

The results showed that the high-protein group lost about 10.5 pounds and the low protein group only eight pounds. All of the participants, by virtue of the demanding six-days-a-week exercise routines, got stronger, fitter, and generally were in much better shape.

However, researchers caution this regimen is not for everyone.

"We designed this program for overweight young men, although I'm sure it would work for young women too, to get fitter, stronger, and to lose weight fast. It's a tough program and not something that's sustainable or for those looking for quick and easy fix," says Phillips. "We controlled their diets, we supervised the exercise, and we really kept these guys under our 'scientific' thumb for the four weeks the participants were in the study."

Phillips and his team hope to conduct a follow-up study on women and also explore a different approach that he says will be "a little easier and much more sustainable."

Retain muscle is different from Gaining Muscle and Losing Fat.
The miracle pill has yet to be invented, but that doesn't stop people from trying to sell them.

The only issue if that's what it could be called is that the study doesn't reference their years of experience lifting.

So they were possibly novices instead of seasoned lifters or athletes

This is true, so that eliminates professional bodybuilders with trainers and 'supplements'.

So you can lose muscle me and gain fat.
But you don't need to site a source. Lol.
But he wants you to site a source to add muscle and drop fat. Really!!!! Here ill do one better for him. Kevin levrone
Is gaining size at a phenomenal rate and staying lean. As you gain more muscle you burn more calories. Also if your not adding or putting on fat What happens to your body fat % as your lean body mass increases.

You don't lose muscle and gain fat.
It's all about the mitochondria my man, but that is another story... of muscle memory. Eat at a caloric surplus and you will gain weight, don't exercise and it will be happily stored as fat.

LOL. Look at the quote above yours.
I think he's not just taking BCAAs, unless you are saying he's natural...Taking supplements will give you an edge, and that was my point. I'm uncertain about the pushback, well not really. I know why the pushback, but that doesn't change physiology, and of course pharmacology.

Bottom line
If everyone against the fact one does not cut and lose muscle. How many of you have gone into PCT thinking, I'm going to gain muscle here...or am I hoping for a minimizing of muscle loss? No need to answer. It was rhetorical.

 

[macedog24]

I'm talking gaining LBM and losing fat mass, that's a little different than gaining LBM and not gaining or losing any fat mass, which would still result in a decrease in body fat %. Both are possible though.

No I understand What Your saying , this was just making another point toward what you said.
If your. If your body fat %is gonna drop just by adding lean mass. What does the op. Thino will happen with doing cardio like your Cutting. You will get diced.
People choose not to do this because you must be more discipline then either. Cutting, or bulking. Nutrition, must be on point, cardio must be on point, sleep also. I agree with you muscleupcrohn.
I've done it before.

 

[Solem]

Yes. Why do you think I asked you?



Retain muscle is different from Gaining Muscle and Losing Fat.
The miracle pill has yet to be invented, but that doesn't stop people from trying to sell them.



This is true, so that eliminates professional bodybuilders with trainers and 'supplements'.



You don't lose muscle and gain fat.
It's all about the mitochondria my man, but that is another story... of muscle memory. Eat at a caloric surplus and you will gain weight.

LOL. Look at the quote above yours.
I think he's not just taking BCAAs, unless you are saying he's natural...Taking supplements will give you an edge, and that was my point. I'm uncertain about the pushback, well not really. I know why the pushback, but that doesn't change physiology, and of course pharmacology.

Bottom line
If everyone against the fact one does not cut and lose muscle. How many of you have gone into PCT thinking, I'm going to gain muscle here...or am I hoping for a minimizing of muscle loss?

the study says that the high protein group lost 10lbs and gained 2.5lbs of muscle. So technically they gained while being in a 40% deficit.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes. Why do you think I asked you?



Retain muscle is different from Gaining Muscle and Losing Fat.
The miracle pill has yet to be invented, but that doesn't stop people from trying to sell them.



This is true, so that eliminates professional bodybuilders with trainers and 'supplements'.



You don't lose muscle and gain fat.
It's all about the mitochondria my man, but that is another story... of muscle memory. Eat at a caloric surplus and you will gain weight, don't exercise and it will be happily stored as fat.

LOL. Look at the quote above yours.
I think he's not just taking BCAAs, unless you are saying he's natural...Taking supplements will give you an edge, and that was my point. I'm uncertain about the pushback, well not really. I know why the pushback, but that doesn't change physiology, and of course pharmacology.

Bottom line
If everyone against the fact one does not cut and lose muscle. How many of you have gone into PCT thinking, I'm going to gain muscle here...or am I hoping for a minimizing of muscle loss?

Here you go:

We hypothesized body composition would improve with 6 weeks of betaine supplementation. This hypothesis was supported by significant increases in lean mass, and decreases in fat mass and body fat percentage with betaine compared to placebo

http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/737/art%3A10.1186%2F1550-2783-10-39.pdf?originUrl=http://jissn.biomedcentral.com/article/10.1186/1550-2783-10-39&token2=exp=1489503663~acl=/static/pdf/737/art%253A10.1186%252F1550-2783-10-39.pdf*~hmac=6a3eeddfc8b9876339ae98bfde4ef6b4f34e6337883f0e551a0c040d8996b1ad

Supplementation with HMB-FA resulted in a significant increase in body mass and LBM compared with placebo supplementation (Table 3) during the 12-week exercise training period. The HMB-FA group also experienced a significant decrease in body fat, −5.4 ± 1.6 kg, compared with the placebo group, −1.7 ± 2.7 kg (Table 3). Supplementation with HMB-FA resulted in significantly greater quadriceps thickness compared to the placebo group over the 12-week training period.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4019830/

Forskolin was shown to elicit favorable changes in body composition by significantly decreasing body fat percentage (BF%) and fat mass (FM) as determined by DXA compared with the placebo group (p < or = 0.05)... There was a trend toward a significant increase for lean body mass in the forskolin group compared with the placebo group (p = 0.097).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16129715

Your talk about gaining muscle in PCT is largely irrelevant here, as the reason why you're not really going to gain more muscle is that you are no longer benefiting from supraphysiological testosterone levels and other similar effects, so it's going to be difficult to maintain all of that mass and strength. What does that have to do with the possibility of gaining muscle and losing fat? Surely we know that you can do both when you're on cycle.

 

[APC80]

That study was on obese men. I believe you can build a small amount of muscle on a cut but only when you're starting from a high bf%. Once you become lean it's next to impossible and going under 12% you're in danger of losing muscle if your diet isn't on point. I've experienced all this myself

 

[justhere4comm]

the study says that the high protein group lost 10lbs and gained 2.5lbs of muscle. So technically they gained while being in a 40% deficit.

A study where half of the 40 men (training experience unknown) were split in half, so a sample of a whole 20 men gained 2.5 pounds over 90 days. 3 months. 12 weeks. A controlled environment where there diet was actually measured with an excess of protein. I will argue no further.

So, this justifies how much cost in supplements to get the same results in the study where they used none. My point has been made for me. I'm happy to conclude it is possible to do this with proper nutrition and without supplementation.

I hope the author reads this. He has a chance to save some money and make it happen.
I would like to thank the participants in this exploration. I stand corrected and bow to you all with thanks.

:boom:
:redeemerwhore:​

 

[Solem]

A study where half of the 40 men (training experience unknown) were split in half, so a sample of a whole 20 men gained 2.5 pounds over 90 days.
3 months. 12 weeks. A controlled environment where there diet was actually measured with an excess of protein. I will argue no further.

So, this justifies how much cost in supplements to get the same results in the study where they used none. My point has been made for me.
I'm happy to conclude it is possible to do this over a long period of time slowly with proper nutrition and without supplementation.

I hope the author reads this. He has a chance to save some money and make it happen.
I would like to thank the participants in this exploration. I stand corrected.

:boom:
:redeemerwhore:​

I never contested that you couldn't gain muscle and lose fat. You did.

I wanted supplements to aid the process and not naively give me gains that aren't realistic let alone possible in certain scenarios.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

A study where half of the 40 men (training experience unknown) were split in half, so a sample of a whole 20 men gained 2.5 pounds over 90 days. 3 months. 12 weeks. A controlled environment where there diet was actually measured with an excess of protein. I will argue no further.

So, this justifies how much cost in supplements to get the same results in the study where they used none. My point has been made for me.
I'm happy to conclude it is possible to do this over a long period of time slowly with proper nutrition and without supplementation.

I hope the author reads this. He has a chance to save some money and make it happen.
I would like to thank the participants in this exploration. I stand corrected and bow to you all with thanks.

:boom:
:redeemerwhore:​

What are you trying to say? So now you do acknowledge that it's possible to gain muscle and lose fat?

I never contested that you couldn't gain muscle and lose fat. You did.

I wanted supplements to aid the process and not naively give me gains that aren't realistic let alone possible in certain scenarios.

And based on the studies I referenced earlier, there are some supplements that can help you recomp more effectively. Of course, they're not magic, and work best with solid training and diet, but that really goes without saying.

 

[justhere4comm]

I never contested that you couldn't gain muscle and lose fat. You did.
I wanted supplements to aid the process and not naively give me gains that aren't realistic let alone possible in certain scenarios.

I wasn't referring to you sir, but you don't need to spend $300 on supplements for just an edge, unless you want to. You can do it naturally. That was my contention the entire time.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I wasn't referring to you sir, but you don't need to spend $300 on supplements for just an edge, unless you want to. You can do it naturally. That was my contention the entire time.

Actually, your contention was, and I quote, "You cannot build muscle and lose fat. Pick one."

Of course you don't need supplements to build muscle and lose fat, or to build a good physique in general, but they can help. Of course, they can not replace a solid diet and training protocol, but that much is rather obvious really. The whole point of supplements is, as the name suggests, to supplement these other variables, which can give you a little boost/edge. Whether or not that is worth the money is up to you.

 

[justhere4comm]

Yeah bro. You can't really build muscle (bulk) without gaining fat. You know it.
My real contention was directed to the OP in that what his goal was in using supplementation listed was not realistic, just expensive. They definitely do help though! I entirely agree.

The study cited was over 90 days. 90 days of this supplements would be almost $500 and I can think of better things to spend on, like food. Hey, maybe the gent can afford it, but that's not what I read due to a staggering of the supplements. I'm being realistic. He has noob gains, and maximizing on that would benefit him most with staples.

I'm sure you guys can recommend some decent staples.

- Soy Lecithin Granules
- Vitamin D3
- Pre Workout
- Protein (Variety of flavors)
- Some kind of sleep aid / night time supplement would be great
(I have seen some good ones out there) maximize rest, stages 2-3 sleep and GH release.

"Stages 2 and 3 – Stage 2 is the transition from light to deep sleep, and Stage 3 is complete deep sleep where the body produces very slow waves called Delta Waves. This stage of sleep is often called Slow Wave Sleep (SWS). During this stage HGH is released, blood rushes from the brain to the muscles to initiate recovery and re-energize your body. Additionally, elements of the parasympathetic nervous system are triggered while the sympathetic nervous system is suppressed. All of this supports immune function and normal glucose metabolism during the day."

Growth hormone secretion during sleep
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC297368/

This supplement looks interesting, and a lot of buzz about it in this thread:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/287199-tomatidine-potent-natural.html

Tomatidine (potent natural anabolic?)

Tomatidine is a steroidal alkaloid found in skins and leaves of tomatoes which can :

-Increase skeletal muscle mTORC1 signaling
-Reduce skeletal muscle atrophy
-Enhanced recovery
-Stimulate skeletal muscle hypertrophy, and
increase strength and exercise capacity

http://ergo-log.com/tomatidine-the-a...-tomatoes.html

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yeah bro. You can't really build muscle (bulk) without gaining fat. You know it.
My real contention was directed to the OP in that what his goal was in using supplementation listed was not realistic, just expensive.

The study cited was over 90 days. 90 days of this supplements would be almost $500 and I can think of better things to spend on, like food. Hey, maybe the gent can afford it, but that's not what I read due to a staggering of the supplements. I'm being realistic. He has noob gains, and maximizing on that would benefit him most with staples.

I'm sure you guys can recommend some decent staples.

- Soy Lecithin Granules
- Vitamin D3
- Pre Workout
- Protein (Variety of flavors)
- Some kind of sleep aid / night time supplement would be great
(I have seen some good ones out there) maximize rest, stages 2-3 sleep and GH release.



Growth hormone secretion during sleep
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC297368/

This supplement looks interesting, and a lot of buzz about it in this thread:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/287199-tomatidine-potent-natural.html

What? I just showed you multiple studies that prove that you can. Granted, it isn't easy, and you won't be bulking (adding mass) at as rapid of a rate as possible without gaining at least some amount of fat, but it's possible. I do agree that it's usually wise to focus on one goal, gaining muscle or losing fat, but that in no way means that it isn't possible to do both at the same time to some degree.

I'm a bit confused as to what is $500? I don't recommend spending $500 on 90 days of supplements, but there are several useful supplements that will only cost a small fraction of that.

With that said, a sleep aid is nowhere near the top of my list for affordable (bang for your buck) supplements that can help with a recomp unless you have problems sleeping, but then you're attempting to fix a problem, which is a different matter entirely (edit: if you want something cheap to improve sleep quality, pick up some glycine and l-ornithine HCL for under $6/month).

As for affordable supplements:

-A "daily staple" supplement with creatine and betaine (PowerMax XT, Triumph, Ergonine, Finish Line, etc; about $1/day or a little bit more)
-HMB (assuming you take advantage of the increased recovery in your training program; you can get enough for your "90 days" for around $20 if you're fine with using a bulk powder)
-Forskolin (can help with body composition, find as a standalone or as part of a formula like AlphaMax XT that also contains ashwagandha, which has also been shown to improve body composition, among other benefits)
-Ashwagandha (see above, or as a standalone that can be found capped for ~$7/month)
-Protein (this is really just convenient "food" that's high in protein and low in fat/carbs/calories, nothing more, nothing less)
-Pre-Workout (increased energy/focus, pump/endurance can lead to better workouts, which can indirectly lead to better results/progress)

 

[ELROCK]

I have been recomping (gaining muscle while losing fat) for the past 2 years. It is possible it is just a harder/slower process. It is easier and faster if you bulk then cut like I use to do for years. The recomping process is essentially healthier for the body IMO.

 

[justhere4comm]

I have been recomping (gaining muscle while losing fat) for the past 2 years. It is possible it is just a harder/slower process. It is easier and faster if you bulk then cut like I use to do for years. The recomping process is essentially healthier for the body IMO.

Slow and steady my man, but this request by the OP did not stipulate time, but summer let's out 2 years. I lost 90 pounds over 1.5 years, retained muscle, and then gained muscle and fat. (298 to 208) I didn't rely on any supplementation except in the past several months as an experiment using fat burners, and pre workouts. Nothing really works very well, except with regard to enhancing the mood. The mood will get you down on a cut, so those ingredients that enhance focus and mood are welcome.

When I said proper sleep, one doesn't need to have a problem with it in order to get to sleep and into stage 2-3 faster to optimize recovery and growth in the time fasted while sleeping 8 hours. Rest is under rated with regard to being stimulated during a cut so much.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Slow and steady my man, but this request by the OP did not stipulate time, but summer let's out 2 years. I lost 90 pounds over 1.5 years, retained muscle, and then gained muscle and fat. (298 to 208) I didn't rely on any supplementation except in the past several months as an experiment using fat burners, and pre workouts. Nothing really works very well, except with regard to enhancing the mood. The mood will get you down on a cut, so those ingredients that enhance focus and mood are welcome.

When I said proper sleep, one doesn't need to have a problem with it in order to get to sleep and into stage 2-3 faster to optimize recovery and growth in the time fasted while sleeping 8 hours. Rest is under rated with regard to being stimulated during a cut so much.

It's one thing to caution the OP that supplements aren't a magic bullet, and can't come close to replacing proper diet, training, and recovery, but that's not what you said earlier in this thread. I guess we've moved past that and we can agree that it is indeed possible to gain muscle and lose fat, with or without supplements (although supplements can help give you a bit of an "edge" and progress a little faster).

I still maintain that if we're considering supplements on a budget or "bang-for-your-buck," since you brought up the topic of money/cost/etc, I still maintain that there are many options/supplements that would be more beneficial for recomping than a sleep aid. Now, that's not to say that a sleep aid type supplement can't help you optimize recovery and feel better overall, but it's not at the top of the list for best supplements for recomping, which seems to be the topic of this thread.

 

[justhere4comm]

Thank you for the lively and productive debate as well as further reading for more information. The more the better.

HMB might be a welcome addition to a cut as well.
Some great affordable additions with regard to this.

or

BCAAs in a caloric deficit.

"I've seen a lot about Olympus Labs and spoke to their online helper who had suggested
Triumph, conquer, assassinate, epic unleashed, and strength unleashed."

The math on that stack adds up pretty fast for only 30 days.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Thank you for the lively and productive debate as well as further reading for more information. The more the better.

HMB might be a welcome addition to a cut as well.
Some great affordable additions with regard to this.

or

BCAAs in a caloric deficit.

"I've seen a lot about Olympus Labs and spoke to their online helper who had suggested
Triumph, conquer, assassinate, epic unleashed, and strength unleashed."

The math on that stack adds up pretty fast for only 30 days.

I actually like BCAAs (or EAAs) with carbs during a bulk too. There was a study where subjects took either EAAs, carbs, EAA + carbs or placebo intra-workout, and all groups gained body mass (with EAA + carbs gaining the most), and all groups lost fat mass, although there were no significant differences between the groups here (the study was conducted using untrained men).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16456674

 

[masterpiter]

I have been recomping (gaining muscle while losing fat) for the past 2 years. It is possible it is just a harder/slower process. It is easier and faster if you bulk then cut like I use to do for years. The recomping process is essentially healthier for the body IMO.

Indeed.
All you need for muscles to grow is Positive Nitrogen balance , which means high protein diets even in caloric deficit build muscle.

Positive Nitrogen balance= the intake of nitrogen into the body is greater than the loss of nitrogen from the body, so there is an increase in the total body pool of protein.

 

[Nac]

Yeah the whole "calories in calories out" mantra seems far too crude to me. I mean, the body can be simultaneously catabolic and anabolic regardless of calorie intake. Its not necessarily a case of "one or the other".

 

[APC80]

A surplus of calories is the most efficient way of building muscle, it comes at a snails pace while in a deficit. Good luck adding 20-30 pounds of muscle to your body while in a caloric deficit.