All Natural Anabolics = Bunk?

[Toff]

So, Im just coming round to the idea if purchasing epicathin and Laxogenin again

My first run was with BPS LAxocrine but it didnt work out very well, lost faith and headed to the dhea derivitives.

Im now buying and looking at prices but they appear to be dropped by olympus and others are Sale items?

Are they on their way out as bunk or useless like DAA was famous for 12 day T-boost now noone uses it in new formulas?

 

[Studdscruggs]

Epicatechin gave me absolutely no benefit and for the price, not even close to worth its value. Laxogenin gave me good joint health and helped me reduce shoulder pain but that was about it.

 

[APC80]

Wasted money and time on both anafuse and anabeta elite they did absolutely nothing for me. People start eating better and training harder while taking them and that's where the results they report are mostly coming from. The placebo effect is a powerful thing.

 

[LeanEngineer]

I think they do bring great benefits. Of course you shouldn't compare the results you get from natty products to anything that is suppressive. For example you can't compare the results you get from an andro to an epicatechin product because epicatechin is all natural and an andro product is not. So taking that into consideration, I think natty products bring great results but your diet and training have to be on point at the same time to see the results. I typically will see results come toward the end of a natty run. For example I ran anafuse(epi+laxo) for 8 weeks and saw the best results around weeks 6-8.

 

[shockrock3]

Follidrone 2.0 is as legit as they come for natty anabolics, so much good feedback on it...go look in the Q&A thread for FD2.

 

[APC80]

I think they do bring great benefits. Of course you shouldn't compare the results you get from natty products to anything that is suppressive. For example you can't compare the results you get from an andro to an epicatechin product because epicatechin is all natural and an andro product is not. So taking that into consideration, I think natty products bring great results but your diet and training have to be on point at the same time to see the results. I typically will see results come toward the end of a natty run. For example I ran anafuse(epi+laxo) for 8 weeks and saw the best results around weeks 6-8.

But nothing should take that long to kick in. I've had periods of time where my diet hasnt been optimal and has not much to show for 2 months training and others were I've got it all spot on and made huge progress in one month. Food is a better natural anabolic than any of this overpriced garbage.

 

[BennyMagoo79]

I really noticed it both times i finished cycling derastrength TD.

 

[vujade]

Here are the best Natural Anabolics with proven results..

BLR Follidrone 2.0
PES Anabeta Elite

 

[corsaking]

what puzzles me is how these manufacturers get their claims it does x y z. Before i buy i research the ingredient mainly on examine .com and find theres no relation to what is written on there to that of the product description.

i spent £41 UKP on olympus labs laxogenin supplement over a month ago but it still hasnt been used . It was bought cos i bought into all the hype , even now after reading loads of reviews i still am not convinced.
Sometime ago i said i would never buy anything unless it had a good track record which had built up over the years ,creatine , beta alanine etc and human studies to support this..i think its time for me to get back on track.

 

[AdelV]

I liked Ep1c TD, I felt better endurance and fat loss.

FD2 is OK, felt endurance and higher libido week 2-6 now dropped off.

Definitely not as great as people rave on, sorry.

Most natural products aren't going to produce noticeable results compared to anabolics. It's a price you pay to be natty I spose, ohwell.

I really enjoyed OL Ep1c tho and bought a few more bottles to run again.

Anabeta didn't do much for me either, took the original.

I remember Natadrol I believe it was, was actually pretty decent.

I can't think of what else I've taken.

Personally too many sides with anabolics, aka hair loss. It's simply not worth it for me. You got to make that choice, and I think the sales are a reflection of raws dropping in price or a reformulation.

 

[ma70]

Natural anabolics prevent fat mass gain rather than increase LBM gain, and even if they do, depending on how long you have been training, your progress will be absurdly slow with or without natural anabolics. Look into diet/training before adding supplementation. Expecting PH like gains is laughable.

 

[Toff]

yet.. they say its the alternative to PH in the advertising splurge!

"Finally a new wave of anabolics!" etc.

So, yes, laughable. Laughing AT us

 

[ma70]

yet.. they say its the alternative to PH in the advertising splurge!

"Finally a new wave of anabolics!" etc.

So, yes, laughable. Laughing AT us

All people do is have realistic expectations. After training for 3 years, if your training has been remotely decent, you can probably only gain ~0.5 lbs of actual muscle per month. These anabolics say they will help you increase muscle mass (either via studies, claims, whatever) by 25% or something. 25% added on to 0.5 is 0.625 lbs of muscle instead. Not to mention muscle growth happens in spurts, not consistently.

 

[macwad]

ArA and HMB is legit. The research is very clear about them and in my experience found to be great. HMB is the most underrated cheap ingredient IMO.

Epi just gave me endurance, which may be nice if you can stay in the gym a long time (not my case).

Laxo didnt do much if anything, and the research is extremely poor on it.

Ecdy is another story; nice research on it. If the absorption issue can be dealt with, it is a great ingredient, although expensive if used the right ecdys (which is crucial).

PA also seems to be legit in high doses.

Or1gin gives me a nice recovery, can sleep one hour less and feel the same. Dont know if I noticed anything more. The problem with natty supps is that there is no huge impact, so it is hard to say if it is working... if it gives you 1lb of muscle in 2-3 months, how are we supposed to notice that? That's why I rely more on the research than in what I perceived.

Now there is tomatidine and ursolic acid, both with absorption issues. Very promissing.

 

[Admin]

All people do is have realistic expectations. After training for 3 years, if your training has been remotely decent, you can probably only gain ~0.5 lbs of actual muscle per month. These anabolics say they will help you increase muscle mass (either via studies, claims, whatever) by 25% or something. 25% added on to 0.5 is 0.625 lbs of muscle instead. Not to mention muscle growth happens in spurts, not consistently.

Please don't let the boring truth get in the way of people complaining. :lol:


I liked epi.

 

[ma70]

Please don't let the boring truth get in the way of people complaining. :lol:


I liked epi.

Epicatechin was great for me. These supplements have health benefits, but also, allowing me to do more volume in the gym (either by pure volume, or increasing density) has many benefits to body composition on it's own. Not sure about the myostatin stuff, cause I can't measure that, but I looked better using epicatechin than without it.

 

[Scottfalcon]

I gotta say I loved the OG alphamax and the new alphamax xt. Both help you lean out and increase pumps and vascularity while on a bulk or cut, and on a bulk I definitely notice better sleep and strength gains. Gains may not be a direct result of the ingredients in it, but if it helps indirectly it's worth it to me. All I know is after 8 weeks I always look and feel noticeably better.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Setting aside the argument that even guys who compete in natural/drug free or tested organizations still use drugs...

There are very well known coaches, both for Physique and Performance sports, that have natural clients who pay them money to win. Using just one example, because most everyone will know them, Team 3DMJ which is Eric Helms, Alberto Nunez, Jeff Roberts, Brad Loomis, and Andrea Valdez. Helms also happens to be a PhD Researcher.

If any of this "stuff" actually "worked" - and by worked lets say "added more measurable muscle than proper food and programming alone", all coaches who deal with natural clients, would be friggen using the stuff because winning clients equals continued/more revenue.

Go and find where any credible researcher/coach who has absolutely no connection in any way - deriving zero benefit in any way - to/from a supplement company... recommends Laxogenin or whatever else you want to substitute in its place.

What do Wendler and Rippetoe say to use? Hatfield?

 

[APC80]

Have to add creatine and my pre-workout supps beta alanine, betaine, citrulline malate all do the job they are meant to. I actually notice those working as in pumps, endurance, strength etc so if these natural anabolics work I should have been able to feel them doing something which I didn't. Most are just snake oil pushed by reps. Can't speak for all of them but can't see the Ines I haven't tried being much use either.

 

[macwad]

Setting aside the argument that even guys who compete in natural/drug free or tested organizations still use drugs...

There are very well known coaches, both for Physique and Performance sports, that have natural clients who pay them money to win. Using just one example, because most everyone will know them, Team 3DMJ which is Eric Helms, Alberto Nunez, Jeff Roberts, Brad Loomis, and Andrea Valdez. Helms also happens to be a PhD Researcher.

If any of this "stuff" actually "worked" - and by worked lets say "added more measurable muscle than proper food and programming alone", all coaches who deal with natural clients, would be friggen using the stuff because winning clients equals continued/more revenue.

Go and find where any credible researcher/coach who has absolutely no connection in any way - deriving zero benefit in any way - to/from a supplement company... recommends Laxogenin or whatever else you want to substitute in its place.

What do Wendler and Rippetoe say to use? Hatfield?

I have no clue if they use stuff or not, but in such a competitive environment, I bet they would never tell what they use. Worse, they probably would say they dont use anything. The guys who compete and are not natty tell exactly what they use? (that's a real question as I dont know )

 

[Admin]

What do Wendler and Rippetoe say to use? Hatfield?

The things they can't tell people to use.

 

[ma70]

The things they can't tell people to use.

And Wender likes a bunch of Biotest stuff. Hahahaha.

 

[ws65]

Epicatechin really needs absorption enhancers for it to be effective. So if your (-)epi was bought in bulf or has none of these, you won't get much at all from it. There is a thread http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/290472-epicatechin-duration-dosing.html where this is discussed. Also, for (-)epi to really have the effects on follistatin, it would need to be dosed every 3-4 hours.

 

[lukinosnake]

I stick to ARA and ABE. End of story

 

[sinewave3]

I think it depends on your goals and expectations.

Phosphatic Acid/lecithin granules are really about it for me. Increased pumps, endurance, and appetite.

There is a giant thread on PA around here somewhere...

 

[The_Old_Guy]

And Wender likes a bunch of Biotest stuff. Hahahaha.

Fair enough, I actually am more of a Helms / Schoenfeld / Israel guy, so touche.

Ah, the "secrets" of the fitness industry in the internet age - the National Security Agency is green with envy - damn you Edward Snowden!!!!!!

 

[southpaw23]

As someone who has tried all of the top natty boosters, so-called muscle builders etc., don't get your hopes up. Beyond a libido boost (which is hit or miss), you won't see much from them. A lot of guys in their 20's take things and "think" they actually work, when in fact, they're in their prime and the results they're getting probably have nothing to do with natty products, just their own hard work. The two best natural muscle builders in my opinion are ARA and PA. I've yet to take anything else that comes close to the benefits of these two.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

As someone who has tried all of the top natty boosters, so-called muscle builders etc., don't get your hopes up. Beyond a libido boost (which is hit or miss), you won't see much from them. A lot of guys in their 20's take things and "think" they actually work, when in fact, they're in the prime and the results they're getting probably have nothing to do with natty products, just their own hard work. The two best natural muscle builders in my opinion are ARA and PA. I've yet to take anything else that comes close to the benefits of these two.

Definitely two good options. With that said, I do believe that there are some other supplements/ingredients that can help a natty put on size and strength. For example, HMB really helps me be able to train longer and more frequently and still progress/recover, which translates to faster progress if I take advantage of this. Additionally, I found I gained weight (and overall progress) faster while using MassMax XT, likely partially due to increased appetite, which is great for people who either don't have a huge appetite, or need to eat a lot of food to put on weight.

But yes, you do have to keep your expectations reasonable; natural supplements aren't going to provide AAS/PH/etc type gains. If they did, why would anyone even go the non-natural route?

 

[southpaw23]

Definitely two good options. With that said, I do believe that there are some other supplements/ingredients that can help a natty put on size and strength. For example, HMB really helps me be able to train longer and more frequently and still progress/recover, which translates to faster progress if I take advantage of this. Additionally, I found I gained weight (and overall progress) faster while using MassMax XT, likely partially due to increased appetite, which is great for people who either don't have a huge appetite, or need to eat a lot of food to put on weight.

But yes, you do have to keep your expectations reasonable; natural supplements aren't going to provide AAS/PH/etc type gains. If they did, why would anyone even go the non-natural route?

I agree and am definitely not comparing naturals to AA's. I've used/beta tested many of the top natty boosters, most recently M-Test for 8 weeks. Did I receive a libido boost at times, yes. Did I notice any strength or muscle gains that I'd describe as significant? No. Extremely subtle results. Nothing to write home about. However, when I ran ARA, the results were pretty dramatic for a natural anabolic, size gains were impressive. Now PA, the increased strength factor is also highly impressive. These two ingredients flat out work.

 

[AntM1564]

As I stated in another thread, I think this issue comes down to expectations of the user. People may expect the outcome to be that similar to PH/DS and even if people know the effets won't be that drastic, I think the expectations are still a little too high. That is not to say that there are products and ingredients that don't work. However, there are several products (AlphaMax XT, MassMax XT, X-Gels, (-)epi, etc.) that have ingredients that contain full doses of proven ingredients.

In regard to (-)epi and ArA, I personally think those two ingredients are awesome for bulking and natural strength gains. Laxo, I have ran a few products and was rather disappointed. From my reading, it has to be ran at a pretty high dose to be effective, so it may not be worth the amount one needs to spend on it.

However, you do have products that contain ingredients like Tongkat Ali, betaine, Ashwagandha, Ferulic Acid, etc. that have studies showing their effectiveness. Those are the products one needs to try. And like I mentioned in a thread yesterday, natural products should be ran for 8 weeks for the full benefits as most of these ingredients do not have an acute effect.

Ferulic Acid

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/284442-ferulic-acid-research.html

Ashwagandha

If healthy people take 3-5 ashwagandha capsules every day, their muscle strength and lean body mass increase and their fat percentage decreases. In addition, taking this herb, which is used in the ayurveda tradition, reduces the chance of cardiovascular disease. Researchers at the ICMR Advanced Centre for Reverse Pharmacology in Traditional Medicine discovered this.

http://www.ergo-log.com/ashwagandha-strength-lean-body-mass-fat-percentage.html

If infertile men take three capsules containing Ashwagandha – Latin name Withania somnifera – every day for a couple of months, their testosterone level rises by 17 percent and their sperm cell concentration increases by 167 percent. Doctors at Mahalaxmi Clinic in Mumbai, India write about it in Evidence-Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

http://www.ergo-log.com/human-study-ashwagandha-boosts-testosterone-level.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4658772/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996571/

Tongkat Ali

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3669033/

 

[corsaking]

I have no clue if they use stuff or not, but in such a competitive environment, I bet they would never tell what they use. Worse, they probably would say they dont use anything. The guys who compete and are not natty tell exactly what they use? (that's a real question as I dont know )

ask a fitness model through their face book page to tell you what they use , you may well get a recommendation of a product from a company that sponsors them, but when you see the condition that these guys are in seemingly all year round, theres more to there supplement routine than meets the eye in my view

 

[ELROCK]

All people do is have realistic expectations. After training for 3 years, if your training has been remotely decent, you can probably only gain ~0.5 lbs of actual muscle per month. These anabolics say they will help you increase muscle mass (either via studies, claims, whatever) by 25% or something. 25% added on to 0.5 is 0.625 lbs of muscle instead. Not to mention muscle growth happens in spurts, not consistently.

Great post man!

 

[banjobounce]

PA is the best for the money, imo. I have recieved good result from both ARA and Evomuse's BMP in the past. Olive Leaf extract is an underrated and oft overlooked natural anabolic as well. Just my two cents.

 

[Admin]

ask a fitness model through their face book page to tell you what they use , you may well get a recommendation of a product from a company that sponsors them, but when you see the condition that these guys are in seemingly all year round, theres more to there supplement routine than meets the eye in my view

But that doesn't mean the supplement won't work. In a generation that want results now, much less 6-8 weeks, anything natural will probably not get the time of day much less documented and used properly (having diet and training on point)

 

[Nac]

But that doesn't mean the supplement won't work. In a generation that want results now, much less 6-8 weeks, anything natural will probably not get the time of day much less documented and used properly (having diet and training on point)

bro, your posts deliver immediate results.

 

[Zariph]

If you are deficient in something like vitamin D etc, otherwise most anabolics wont make any big difference imo. ARA made me really sore tho

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

im not sold on Lax still

i like -(-)epi, xgels, anabeta, PA are my favorites

 

[jgntyce]

ARA - SNS X GELS
EPICATECHIN - CEL EPIPLEX

Many respected members have used these two supplements with great results.

 

[Olympus Labs]

We are clearing out inventory on strength and epic; transdermal versions as well, and will be reintroducing the two ingredients in some sort of way or manner.

Currently we are working with a company who has many patents on epicatechin to reintroduce their research as a brand new ingredient. We will be using the effective concentration of epi according to their research. There are also a lot more studies being funded on epicatechin as well

In regards to lax we are refining the technology to make the ingredient, solvent, and overall technology more cost effective and will be testing new samples soon which we may test publicly. Addressing absorption & b/a concerns in a real world cost effective manner is the first step in seeing these ingredients work In a more mainstream level. We come across ingredients everyday that have great promise but would not make sense to produce on a commercial level due to cost

 

[corsaking]

We are clearing out inventory on strength and epic; transdermal versions as well, and will be reintroducing the two ingredients in some sort of way or manner.

Currently we are working with a company who has many patents on epicatechin to reintroduce their research as a brand new ingredient. We will be using the effective concentration of epi according to their research. There are also a lot more studies being funded on epicatechin as well

In regards to lax we are refining the technology to make the ingredient, solvent, and overall technology more cost effective and will be testing new samples soon which we may test publicly. Addressing absorption & b/a concerns in a real world cost effective manner is the first step in seeing these ingredients work In a more mainstream level. We come across ingredients everyday that have great promise but would not make sense to produce on a commercial level due to cost

As a consumer we need to be sure that products deliver and the results match the claims made on the product.If i was buying a car or television and it wasnt fit for purpose then i could go back to the seller and get a refund under a guarantee.With sports supplements only one or two companies offer that but its not the norm.As i see it it is in your own interests to produce quality products that do deliver at a realistic price.otherwise your reputation could suffer which means little business and poor sales.Lets hope that the product your working on will do just that- deliver

 

[Admin]

bro, your posts deliver immediate results.

awww shucks

 

[Nac]

As a consumer we need to be sure that products deliver and the results match the claims made on the product.If i was buying a car or television and it wasnt fit for purpose then i could go back to the seller and get a refund under a guarantee.With sports supplements only one or two companies offer that but its not the norm.As i see it it is in your own interests to produce quality products that do deliver at a realistic price.otherwise your reputation could suffer which means little business and poor sales.Lets hope that the product your working on will do just that- deliver

The problem with that, and I personally sympathise with companies in this regard, is that with a tv there is a pretty clear set of objective variables which makes pointing the finger reasonably clear.

You expect the tv to work out of the box cos electricity etc.

If a tv doesnt work out of the box, it doesnt make sense to say maybe the wall socket has a poor diet, or poor sleep habits, etc.

Im not a fan of the "non responder" excuse with supps, but admittedly it is a real phenomena with complex biological systems, but not so much with electrical equipment.

 

[AdelV]

We are clearing out inventory on strength and epic; transdermal versions as well, and will be reintroducing the two ingredients in some sort of way or manner.

Currently we are working with a company who has many patents on epicatechin to reintroduce their research as a brand new ingredient. We will be using the effective concentration of epi according to their research. There are also a lot more studies being funded on epicatechin as well

In regards to lax we are refining the technology to make the ingredient, solvent, and overall technology more cost effective and will be testing new samples soon which we may test publicly. Addressing absorption & b/a concerns in a real world cost effective manner is the first step in seeing these ingredients work In a more mainstream level. We come across ingredients everyday that have great promise but would not make sense to produce on a commercial level due to cost

PM those ingredients! I'll have a play ?
I find that very interesting that you come across ingredients that show potential, but are too expensive? I gather it'd be out of reach for the avg person to try those ingredients at a reasonable price?

Very interested tho!

 

[johnnyp]

Any supplement won't have a greater impact that manipulation of diet and routine will have, sure some have benefits that might help one get past a plateau but in terms of muscle growth they don't have a long lasting impact.

 

[pswain1]

I enjoyed the original version of anabeta elite. It increased my appetite and I put on at least 5#'s in about 45 days but when I tried the new version I didn't get the same effects.

 

[Ricky10]

I truly enjoyed ORIG1N. I experienced all day pumps/muscle fullness, increased endurance and eventually a legit increase in strength. Seems I was one of the better responders in those aspects. Unfortunately, I ended up having to stop it due to some GI issues....typical! So now I use FD2 for the unmistakable increase in endurance/strength and general health benefits. As much as I love the product, I must say it has not been much of a muscle builder though.

The new versions of ABE do nothing for me. It used to be awesome before the addition of Lodhra and their attempt to improve their Anacyclus extract. I enjoyed Most Wanted quite a bit and would definitely use it again. Same with Magnitropin.

I do have MassMax XT on order so I will soon be testing that one out!

 

[corsaking]

The problem with that, and I personally sympathise with companies in this regard, is that with a tv there is a pretty clear set of objective variables which makes pointing the finger reasonably clear.

You expect the tv to work out of the box cos electricity etc.

If a tv doesnt work out of the box, it doesnt make sense to say maybe the wall socket has a poor diet, or poor sleep habits, etc.

Im not a fan of the "non responder" excuse with supps, but admittedly it is a real phenomena with complex biological systems, but not so much with electrical equipment.

However it is a fact that people do not respond to every supplement they take .Supplements are bought in good faith to do exactly "what it says on the tin"

Obviously if they dont work theres disapppointment not to mention money being poured down the drain.

Perhaps these companies should stop making claims -"increases test by 17%" "gain 5lb of lean muscle " We ve all seen something along those lines Statements which suggest that no -one is exempt from that -one size fits all.

It would be far better when advertising products to prefix any statement about what the product is intended to do with the words "it may.........etc "Then youre left with no doubt that there is a chance that this product isnt going to work for me.The consumer can then decide if he /she wants to risk spending money on the off chance it could be a waste .

 

[Ricky10]

I enjoyed the original version of anabeta elite. It increased my appetite and I put on at least 5#'s in about 45 days but when I tried the new version I didn't get the same effects.

Yeah; They have really demolished this one too...sad...

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Rhaponticum Carthamoides Extract / Maral Root / Russian Leuzea

2 Months, max dosage on bottle (label indicated you can decrease in month 2 with same effect - I didn't) - with Tart Cherry Juice as indicated on label (a proven recovery food) - result?

Slightly less soreness after RT (Resistance Training) but may have just been the Tart Cherry?

Unfortunately, doing something as simple as a new exercise, completely kicked the shjt out of this supposed wonder supp - couldn't even touch the muscle (in my case Anterior Tibialis' and Medial Deltoid's) without major pain for about 2 workouts. Did not re-purchase. Stick to Coffee and Blueberries for recovery.

And the search for the Holy Unicorn continues...

 

[ultramario12]

This sounds corny. But PES went mainstream. When you start seeing companies placing their products and vitamin shops and gncs.. tbey have made it to the big time and really just have to work on marketing and damage control. PES are sellouts. They sell the same generic products like the rest of them.

Magnitropin was so different than the rest of the anabolics I've taken. Alphamax was a close second.

For me
-Magnitropin (incredible)
-Ara
-O.g. alphamax (they say the new one is better, not)
-PA
-D.S. tribulus or it could have been the other one. One of them was good.
-O.g. powerful

The rest were just a waste I bought into. I'm with Ricky. Fd2 did about two weeks. And I wanted to feel at least something positive. Nothing. Made me sleepy as hell, and just no vasularity or size.

-