Follidrone 2.0 with M test ?

enzo73

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In ten days I'll finish my stack Ara, Lecithin, LCLT and Alphamax xt. I loved it, increasing 2 kg of lean body mass. I have 2 Follidrone 2.0 bottles and one bottle of M test (CEL). Do you have to do a rest of 1 month or going quickly with these products? I also need to continue to use lecithin and LCLT? This stack you see better in ReComp, bulk or cut? I'm at 11/12% BF. Thank you
 
ws65

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IMHO, you could keep using LCLT and lecithin granules year round. The only issue I see is that the EC in FC2.0 and the Urtica Dioica in the M-Test might block too much DHT and possibly make your libido go down a little....might be negligible...might affect others more and others less depending on their particular body chemistry as it relates to DHT. As far as resting, a week off wouldn't hurt you at all and is probably a good idea although everything in it could be run year round imho (Uncle Danes has shown that there does not need to be a rest period with TA which both AlphaMax XT and M-Test have), however, I'm not sure how much rest period is needed for Urtica Dioica and Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid...others will have to answer that.
 
Danes

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IMHO, you could keep using LCLT and lecithin granules year round. The only issue I see is that the EC in FC2.0 and the Urtica Dioica in the M-Test might block too much DHT and possibly make your libido go down a little....might be negligible...might affect others more and others less depending on their particular body chemistry as it relates to DHT. As far as resting, a week off wouldn't hurt you at all and is probably a good idea although everything in it could be run year round imho (Uncle Danes has shown that there does not need to be a rest period with TA which both AlphaMax XT and M-Test have), however, I'm not sure how much rest period is needed for Urtica Dioica and Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid...others will have to answer that.
<3 <3 :)
 
Danes

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In ten days I'll finish my stack Ara, Lecithin, LCLT and Alphamax xt. I loved it, increasing 2 kg of lean body mass. I have 2 Follidrone 2.0 bottles and one bottle of M test (CEL). Do you have to do a rest of 1 month or going quickly with these products? I also need to continue to use lecithin and LCLT? This stack you see better in ReComp, bulk or cut? I'm at 11/12% BF. Thank you
You can just run other products . No need for break
 

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IMHO, you could keep using LCLT and lecithin granules year round. The only issue I see is that the EC in FC2.0 and the Urtica Dioica in the M-Test might block too much DHT and possibly make your libido go down a little....might be negligible...might affect others more and others less depending on their particular body chemistry as it relates to DHT. As far as resting, a week off wouldn't hurt you at all and is probably a good idea although everything in it could be run year round imho (Uncle Danes has shown that there does not need to be a rest period with TA which both AlphaMax XT and M-Test have), however, I'm not sure how much rest period is needed for Urtica Dioica and Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid...others will have to answer that.
Ecklonia Cava is bad for libido? Based on what I have seen it shouldn't bother libido and maybe even increase it.
 
ws65

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Ecklonia Cava is bad for libido? Based on what I have seen it shouldn't bother libido and maybe even increase it.
Notice the underlined, italicized, and bolded "might"....from what I've seen, it really depends on your body chemistry as to what effect EC will have on DHT (it doesn't matter if we are talking EC or whatever...body chemistry is HUGE in how it effects some and not others when it comes to DHT, T, E, etc). I myself do not have any issues with baldness...I'm 51 and still have all my hair...it just changed color that's all. I have taken things that supposedly boost DHT and had no ill effects.

I found this...
It was found that Ecklonia Cava extract increased the growth phase (anagen) of the hair follicle, increased the growth potentiation of the hair cells (dermal papilla), and results in the reduction of 5α-reductase activity, an enzyme responsible for the production of DHT (dihydrotestosterone). (Int J Mol Sci. 2012;13(5):6407-23)

And...
Ecklonia cava also decreases activity of 5α-reductase and therefore reduces the amount of DHT (di-hydro testosterone) in the body. Dieckol is the most active component in Ecklonia cava for the reduction of 5α-reductase (Kang et al., 2012).

And this...see section 2.5, and section 3, paragraph 5, and lastly section 4.9...really the whole article is good.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3382810/

I have searched high and low for natural herbs that increase libido...I'm not talking erections, or NO production, or quality of erection...just something that makes you horny...Butea Superba is pretty good...tried Sorghum but too difficult to dial in...I'm sure I missed something here but...

Oh ya, EC does have a LOT of really good health benefits though, so please, no one think I am bashing EC...just the DHT part, a little ;)
 
Ricky10

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Notice the underlined, italicized, and bolded "might"....from what I've seen, it really depends on your body chemistry as to what effect EC will have on DHT (it doesn't matter if we are talking EC or whatever...body chemistry is HUGE in how it effects some and not others when it comes to DHT, T, E, etc). I myself do not have any issues with baldness...I'm 51 and still have all my hair...it just changed color that's all. I have taken things that supposedly boost DHT and had no ill effects.

I found this...
It was found that Ecklonia Cava extract increased the growth phase (anagen) of the hair follicle, increased the growth potentiation of the hair cells (dermal papilla), and results in the reduction of 5α-reductase activity, an enzyme responsible for the production of DHT (dihydrotestosterone). (Int J Mol Sci. 2012;13(5):6407-23)

And...
Ecklonia cava also decreases activity of 5α-reductase and therefore reduces the amount of DHT (di-hydro testosterone) in the body. Dieckol is the most active component in Ecklonia cava for the reduction of 5α-reductase (Kang et al., 2012).

And this...see section 2.5, and section 3, paragraph 5, and lastly section 4.9...really the whole article is good.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3382810/

I have searched high and low for natural herbs that increase libido...I'm not talking erections, or NO production, or quality of erection...just something that makes you horny...Butea Superba is pretty good...tried Sorghum but too difficult to dial in...I'm sure I missed something here but...

Oh ya, EC does have a LOT of really good health benefits though, so please, no one think I am bashing EC...just the DHT part, a little ;)
Interesting find man...props to you! I also like to avoid extracts that are anti androgenic and reduce DHT such as stinging nettle. I was not aware of this at all being a possibility with Ecklonia Cava. Would be interesting to hear what Brundel would make of this...
 
ws65

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Yes, I would like to hear brundel take on this...I'm very curious.
 
warbird01

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In ten days I'll finish my stack Ara, Lecithin, LCLT and Alphamax xt. I loved it, increasing 2 kg of lean body mass. I have 2 Follidrone 2.0 bottles and one bottle of M test (CEL). Do you have to do a rest of 1 month or going quickly with these products? I also need to continue to use lecithin and LCLT? This stack you see better in ReComp, bulk or cut? I'm at 11/12% BF. Thank you
Damn bro you have some epic stacks going! Follidrone and M test should be great together.
 
Ricky10

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Yes, I would like to hear brundel take on this...I'm very curious.
Yes...where is that silly man when we need him most.:veryhappy:
I have read more about the EC and 5α-reductase and it appears to be true across the board. Oddly enough, it is pretty much unanimous that users of FD2 have experienced (including myself) enhanced libido.

However, I temporarily stopped using FD2 as of last night and did not take my morning dose either. I preceded to go to the gym and literally had no strength or endurance and actually left before finishing my workout. You don't realize what a difference it makes to your workout until you stop. I popped one as soon as I got home and felt my energy come back and I am in a much better mood as well.:dunno:
 
ws65

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Now we need to make a distinction between libido and erectile quality. EC will most definitely help with erectile quality since I've read that it is a significant booster of NO (I've seen in some studies that suggest that EC is as good as Cialis!). DHT is one of the main hormones that make you horny (that is libido), and since EC has that effect on 5α-reductase of reducing conversion to DHT, I'm having trouble understanding libido increases with EC. Please, I hope I'm wrong about this because as I stated earlier in this thread, EC has a TON of really good health benefits.
 
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Ricky10

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Now we need to make a distinction between libido and erectile quality. EC will most definitely help with erectile quality since I've read that it is a significant booster of NO (I've seen in some studies that suggest that EC is as good as Viagra!). DHT is one of the main hormones that make you horny (that is libido), and since EC has that effect on 5α-reductase of reducing conversion to DHT, I'm having trouble understanding libido increases with EC. Please, I hope I'm wrong about this because as I stated earlier in this thread, EC has a TON of really good health benefits.
Not sure if you saw, but Brundel responded in the Follidrone 2.0 thread.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279849&page=87&p=5659811&viewfull=1#post5659811
 
ws65

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Just read it...kinda funny to me that he mentions petri dish...I have seen over the years that companies pushing "new", "latest and greatest", etc base their claims of their super awesome new supplement on exactly that...petri, rat mouse, etc. Now I'm not saying brundel and black lion have done this, just funny to hear that. Remember DAA? Touted by so many as one of the great natural test boosters...now it's passe'
Brundel's original Folidrone 2.0 write up listed a lot to be desired which is why at some point, I will give it a go.

Still though, as I've said previously, EC has too many benefits not to give it a try...Might get some individual extract...I already have Epi-Plex for the -epi, however I would be missing out on the extra goodies brundel has put in it (haven't looked for those individually yet).
 
Danes

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Just read it...kinda funny to me that he mentions petri dish...I have seen over the years that companies pushing "new", "latest and greatest", etc base their claims of their super awesome new supplement on exactly that...petri, rat mouse, etc. Now I'm not saying brundel and black lion have done this, just funny to hear that. Remember DAA? Touted by so many as one of the great natural test boosters...now it's passe'
Brundel's original Folidrone 2.0 write up listed a lot to be desired which is why at some point, I will give it a go.

Still though, as I've said previously, EC has too many benefits not to give it a try...I might just get the Ortho extract of it since they seem to have the purest form extract of EC...I already have Epi-Plex for the -epi, however I would be missing out on the extra goodies brundel has put in it (haven't looked for those individually yet).
You can also try Doctor's Best FibroBoost.

"contains Seanol, a unique polyphenol complex from brown algae (Ecklonia cava). Polyphenol compounds are abundant in plants and their intake is associated with many important health-promoting qualities. Seanol is a potent, marine-based source of polyphenolic compounds with strong antioxidant properties. Unlike most land-based polyphenols that are hydrophilic (water-soluble), Seanol contains hydrophobic compounds that are able to cross the blood-brain barrier, allowing for antioxidant support of the brain and neural tissues."

6 caps daily gives you a dose of 2400mg EC (high quality).
Running this with lets say MassMax XT would be good. Massmax has Epi and absorption/bioavailability enhancers + Other goodies
 
ws65

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Found this. It describes the difference between the two products...and this is getting off track so I will start a thread on Eckalonia Cava (there is one from 2010, but we need one so this can be debated some more...which is a good thing...knowledge is power)

Nutricology's FibroBoost is the other of two extracts that a company can purchase in bulk to then retail to the general public with. They use a 13% extract, where they focus on one component of the Ecklonia Cava spectrum. The primary difference between our stuff and theirs, is that we provide you with full-spectrum Ecklonia Cava, which is as close as it will get to eating the Ecklonia Cava seaweed right out of the sea. Nutricology's is more akin to a pharmaceutical drug that extracts a particular component of a plant, and multiplies its efficacy. I'm not aware of how Nutricology extracts its ECE either, but ours uses a patented water-extraction process (as opposed to alcohol), which doesn't damage the EC in any way.

And seanol uses a lot of corn filler
 
brundel

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There are no studies I am aware of that indicate that oral Ecklonia cava extract will effect DHT.
There are some that indicate that if you soak hair follicles and other things in Dieckol it may effect DHT levels in the sample. Its not logical to imply that oral EC would have the same effects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22754373
The study that was referenced above used hair follicles soaked in 35% dieckol=

"When vibrissa follicles were cultured in the presence of E. cava enzymatic extract (which contains more than 35% of dieckol) for 21 days, "


EC(ecklonia cava) extract was tested Vs viagra and beat viagra on most tests.
The vast majority of users mention an increase in sexual function.

Also....Not all EC extracts are the same.
Some standardize for seanol, some for dieckol, some are full spectrum. And some are very weak while some are very strong.
Ours is exceptionally strong.
The point is you cant say 1000mg of ... ec product is comparable to ... ec product without knowing how they were extracted, strength, standardization etc.

By the way the strongest EC extract I know of is in FOLLIDRONE 2.0


More info regarding EC and sexual function.
=======================

ERECTILE FUNCTION - ECE V. VIAGRAÆ

Nitric Oxide

ECE can regenerate the vascular endothelium, the cells critical to the inner lining of the blood vessels. They generate the chemical nitric oxide (NO), which keeps the arterial walls relaxed and dilated. After a six-week study of ECE, flow mediated dilation and NO mediated dilation increased by 60% and 50%. In another study, coronary artery disease patients were given ECE for six weeks. Blood flow controlled by NO increased 50-60%. These results confirm that ECE can rejuvenate damaged endothelial cells to produce NO. This effect was further confirmed in a study on erectile dysfunction (see below). Interestingly, ViagraÆ works by increasing NO in the penile artery.

ECE v.ViagraÆ: 8-Week Clinical Trial

Scientists studied 31 men with erectile dysfunction (ED) for over six months. They compared eight weeks of ECE use to ViagraÆ. They looked at orgasmic function (OF), intercourse satisfaction (IS), overall satisfaction (OS), and erectile function (EF). Over those eight weeks, ECE scored 87%, 74%, 62%, and 66%. ViagraÆ scored 27%, 44%, 39%, and 66%. No side effects were reported with ECE:

Population with 25+% Improvement in IIEF (International Index of Erectile Function) score was as high as 81%. Total IIEF score significantly increased from 29.1 ± 13.1 to 47.0 ± 14.5 with 62% of improvement. When the IIEF scores were grouped into five separate domains, mean IIEF scores at the 8th week were significantly greater than those at week 0 for all domains (all p<0.01). The degree of improvement was significant in the following order: OF (87%), IS (74%), EF (66%), and OS (62%). Scores on key questions (asking frequency of penetration and asking frequency of maintaining an erection after penetration), which directly indicate the ability to achieve and maintain an erection sufficient for sexual activity, were improved up to 74% and 77%, respectively (p<0.01).

It is very important to note that despite the marginal improvement in sexual desire (20%) that is of psychological nature, great improvements were reported in the domains directly related with erection that is of physical nature and dependent on normal vascular function of the penile artery.

Also noteworthy, was a significant increase in the orgasmic function score (87%), intercourse satisfaction (74%) and overall satisfaction (62%) as well as erectile function (66%) in comparison with the results for sildenafil reported by Marks, et al. (Marks, et al., 1999) (27%, 44%, 39% and 66%, respectively), which indicates that ECE significantly contributed to the normalization of the general vascular conditions around the sexual organ.

These results strongly indicate that the long-term administration of ECE significantly contributes to the neutralization of oxidative risk factors, thereby improving peripheral blood circulation around muscles and nerves involved in sexual function as well as the penile artery. No side effects were reported.

Vasodilation & Erectile Function

It has been reported that vasculogenic ED patients have elevated levels of angiotensin II for the duration of the erection process. The demonstrated action of ECE on ACE and resulting vasodilation is thought to play an important role in inducing successful erectile function.

Long-Term Improvement Via Vascular Protection

As discussed, ECE phlorotanins have potent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects. Together with ECE's ACE inhibitory activity, which is also beneficial to vascular homeostasis, these activities, upon long-term oral administration, may all contribute to supporting a healthy vascular system, including the penile artery.
 
muscleupcrohn

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There are no studies I am aware of that indicate that oral Ecklonia cava extract will effect DHT.
There are some that indicate that if you soak hair follicles and other things in Dieckol it may effect DHT levels in the sample. Its not logical to imply that oral EC would have the same effects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22754373
The study that was referenced above used hair follicles soaked in 35% dieckol=

"When vibrissa follicles were cultured in the presence of E. cava enzymatic extract (which contains more than 35% of dieckol) for 21 days, "


EC(ecklonia cava) extract was tested Vs viagra and beat viagra on most tests.
The vast majority of users mention an increase in sexual function.

Also....Not all EC extracts are the same.
Some standardize for seanol, some for dieckol, some are full spectrum. And some are very weak while some are very strong.
Ours is exceptionally strong.
The point is you cant say 1000mg of ... ec product is comparable to ... ec product without knowing how they were extracted, strength, standardization etc.

By the way the strongest EC extract I know of is in FOLLIDRONE 2.0


More info regarding EC and sexual function.
=======================

ERECTILE FUNCTION - ECE V. VIAGRAÆ

Nitric Oxide

ECE can regenerate the vascular endothelium, the cells critical to the inner lining of the blood vessels. They generate the chemical nitric oxide (NO), which keeps the arterial walls relaxed and dilated. After a six-week study of ECE, flow mediated dilation and NO mediated dilation increased by 60% and 50%. In another study, coronary artery disease patients were given ECE for six weeks. Blood flow controlled by NO increased 50-60%. These results confirm that ECE can rejuvenate damaged endothelial cells to produce NO. This effect was further confirmed in a study on erectile dysfunction (see below). Interestingly, ViagraÆ works by increasing NO in the penile artery.

ECE v.ViagraÆ: 8-Week Clinical Trial

Scientists studied 31 men with erectile dysfunction (ED) for over six months. They compared eight weeks of ECE use to ViagraÆ. They looked at orgasmic function (OF), intercourse satisfaction (IS), overall satisfaction (OS), and erectile function (EF). Over those eight weeks, ECE scored 87%, 74%, 62%, and 66%. ViagraÆ scored 27%, 44%, 39%, and 66%. No side effects were reported with ECE:

Population with 25+% Improvement in IIEF (International Index of Erectile Function) score was as high as 81%. Total IIEF score significantly increased from 29.1 ± 13.1 to 47.0 ± 14.5 with 62% of improvement. When the IIEF scores were grouped into five separate domains, mean IIEF scores at the 8th week were significantly greater than those at week 0 for all domains (all p<0.01). The degree of improvement was significant in the following order: OF (87%), IS (74%), EF (66%), and OS (62%). Scores on key questions (asking frequency of penetration and asking frequency of maintaining an erection after penetration), which directly indicate the ability to achieve and maintain an erection sufficient for sexual activity, were improved up to 74% and 77%, respectively (p<0.01).

It is very important to note that despite the marginal improvement in sexual desire (20%) that is of psychological nature, great improvements were reported in the domains directly related with erection that is of physical nature and dependent on normal vascular function of the penile artery.

Also noteworthy, was a significant increase in the orgasmic function score (87%), intercourse satisfaction (74%) and overall satisfaction (62%) as well as erectile function (66%) in comparison with the results for sildenafil reported by Marks, et al. (Marks, et al., 1999) (27%, 44%, 39% and 66%, respectively), which indicates that ECE significantly contributed to the normalization of the general vascular conditions around the sexual organ.

These results strongly indicate that the long-term administration of ECE significantly contributes to the neutralization of oxidative risk factors, thereby improving peripheral blood circulation around muscles and nerves involved in sexual function as well as the penile artery. No side effects were reported.

Vasodilation & Erectile Function

It has been reported that vasculogenic ED patients have elevated levels of angiotensin II for the duration of the erection process. The demonstrated action of ECE on ACE and resulting vasodilation is thought to play an important role in inducing successful erectile function.

Long-Term Improvement Via Vascular Protection

As discussed, ECE phlorotanins have potent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects. Together with ECE's ACE inhibitory activity, which is also beneficial to vascular homeostasis, these activities, upon long-term oral administration, may all contribute to supporting a healthy vascular system, including the penile artery.
Could you please provide me with a link/reference/text/etc for that ECE vs Viagra study? I've seen it referenced and summarized all the time, but I've never actually seen a proper reference or citation, let alone anything peer reviewed. I'd like to really be able to see the methodology and data, etc. The only study on ecklonia I've seen comapring it to anything like Viagra was comparing a supplement containing ecklonia bicyclis to Tadalafil (Cialis), and it didn't outperform Tadalafil in regards to erectile function. Also, if you could, I'd really like to see that "ECE Beverage: 2-Week Clinical Trial" that gets mentioned all the time for improving body composition; I've seen studies showing benefits, but nothing to that magnitude.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Could you please provide me with a link/reference/text/etc for that ECE vs Viagra study? I've seen it referenced and summarized all the time, but I've never actually seen a proper reference or citation, let alone anything peer reviewed. I'd like to really be able to see the methodology and data, etc. The only study on ecklonia I've seen comapring it to anything like Viagra was comparing a supplement containing ecklonia bicyclis to Tadalafil (Cialis), and it didn't outperform Tadalafil in regards to erectile function. Also, if you could, I'd really like to see that "ECE Beverage: 2-Week Clinical Trial" that gets mentioned all the time for improving body composition; I've seen studies showing benefits, but nothing to that magnitude.
I'm out the door - I pasted the first two sentences into Google and got this:

https://www.google.com/#q=ECE+can+regenerate+the+vascular+endothelium,+the+cells+critical+to+the+inner+lining+of+the+blood+vessels.+They+generate+the+chemical+nitric+oxide+(NO),+which+keeps+the+arterial+walls+relaxed+and+dilated.+After+a+six-week+study+of+ECE,+flow+mediated+dilation+and+NO+mediated+dilation+increased+by+60%+and+50%.

Maybe you can find something?
 
ws65

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Guys, I'm going to copy your posts to the EC thread I started....awesome info.. brundel...that's what I'm talking about bro! I am totally convinced that EC is extremely good for an individual...I was merely concerned about it possibly lowering DHT too much and taking away the "hornies" lol...and those concerns have now been abated.
Link to the EC thread:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/289796-ecklonia-cava.html
 
muscleupcrohn

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Thanks for the help man, but I couldn't find anything through that search, or PubMed, Google, my university's search engine, etc. I'm in the same situation with that 200mg 2-week clinical trial on body composition that I see referenced briefly in many places, but never actually cited/referenced.
 
brundel

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I think I have the full text on my work server. Ill try to find it for you guys.
Ecklonia Bicyclis is a different plant.

For now =
This indicates that EC extract can increase sexual function across the board including erection strength, libido and overall satisfaction scores.
If it lowered DHT none of these things would be happening. The opposite would be true as anything that lowers DHT tends to weaken or eliminate erection and libido.
http://jprenew.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Cardiovascular_Benefits_of_ECE_-_Kang_2003.pdf
 
muscleupcrohn

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I think I have the full text on my work server. Ill try to find it for you guys.
Ecklonia Bicyclis is a different plant.

For now =
This indicates that EC extract can increase sexual function across the board including erection strength, libido and overall satisfaction scores.
If it lowered DHT none of these things would be happening. The opposite would be true as anything that lowers DHT tends to weaken or eliminate erection and libido.
http://jprenew.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Cardiovascular_Benefits_of_ECE_-_Kang_2003.pdf
I'd really like to see the full text if you have it, as that link is a bit confusing. I may very well be wrong, as I'm dong about ten things at once right now, but is the only comparison to Viagra (Sildenafil) not actually a study comparing the two, but the result of comparing two different studies that seemed to test for the same parameters? I'm not saying that EC isn't good/great for erection quality, but, if I'm reading it correctly, that's hardly a perfect basis for a direct comparison.
 

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