I think they can be useful during PCT and the "Off Time" between cycles. They'll never yield he same results as SARMS and PH's and there is A LOT of garbage in the natty supps world, but I have found a few good ones that gave decent results, kept things interesting and think are worth the money,
SARMS and PH's are in a different category than natural anabolic products for many reasons. Natural anabolic products have been developing over the last few years and there are a few great products available, but none of these products will provide the fast strength and size gains that are achievable with prohormones. Natural anabolics can increase natural test levels, where most prohormones converted to hormones. There is a much bigger impact on health (liver, kidneys, reproductive, etc.) and there are many side effects associated with PH's, but they will always win when it comes to muscle and strength gain.
I was really considering the Olympus natty supps for off cycle.
This is a fair assessment. They're not going to be comparable to SARMs and PHs, and if you go in expecting the same results, you're going to be disappointed. However, for compounds that don't carry the same risk of sides that SARMs and PHs do, and products that can be run between cycles, there are certainly some that are very effective and I wouldn't at all consider a waste of money. Products like Test1fy, Anabeta Elite, Orig1n, X-Gels, etc...they're not going to be as powerful as SARMs and PHs, but for using while off-cycle (or for people who don't want to give up their natty card), they are excellent and efficacious alternatives.
You still have to be careful man. That is a lot of cycles to have under your belt at your age! You are still gambling long-term with some of these new anabolics. If you're only 20 and you've already done that many cycles and continue down that path I have to believe you are likely headed towards TRT. But back to your original question, no. Someone with your experience in real anabolics will probably not find these natural supplements worth it.
I would have to consider them stacks as well not one each single cycle. Like epi andro and osta taken together and LGD with GW. And one Osta by itself. Total of 3 cycles within the past two years. Epistane was back in high school and didn't even finish the bottle. Every cycle was with a proper serm protocol and have had 0 issues with bloods. I've done everything perfect to the best of my ability. I can understand if I was blowing my body with back to back cycles with 0 pct to be on the path to TRT.
I understand to extreme cases that damage can occur. I've only done 3 cycles total fully in two years with everything done properly. Sarms are hardly suppressive at all and the only compound that I've taken that was the strongest was epi andro and even that isn't "shut down" material. I'm very happy I decided to take the sarm and mild prohormone path. My shoulder and knee injuries have been completely healed and I can enjoy all of my lifts!
I'm all natty so I can't comment on this too much, however, it may be anecdotal but the amount of prior AAS users that I've seen that are now on TRT is pretty astonishing. It's good that you're doing everything properly though. But still, starting sarms and PHs in your teens is always risky.
I have taken epicat in the past and not to sure if it really made some gains? Hard to tell. I really want to hop on some kind of natty combo like Tr1umph and Test1fy? But that's pushing a bit of over 100 dollars for 4 weeks worth of minimal gains? It seems promising but for the price idk...
I can't speak for Test1fy as I haven't tried it, but Tr1umph makes a noticable difference and OL is a legit company with great products.
IMO, 9x% of them are BS - but that remaining x% covers a pretty good amount of stuff. Too much to list - you need to start researching on Examine and Suppversity (and reading everything here too!
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Keep in mind clinical studies use tiny doses (e.g. 3mg of ostarine). This is not to say that larger doses are or aren't safe, just that the doses used for bodybuilding purposes are much different than the studied doses.
Why not go for the clinical dosing? Is more always better in this case? Must be dimishing returns at some point with benifts/risk aspect included.
Every body will respond differently when using compounds that effect hormones and internal systems.
Because the studies are for cancer cachexia, not for anabolism in healthy active subjects. It's like AIDS and burn studies using 5-20mg oxandrolone per day...no bodybuilder guys are going to use 5mg there either. And what can be studied is limited due to ethical reasons.
LGD is highly suppressive. Ostarine is suppressive as well. The notion that SARMs aren't suppressive is false, even though it's still being circulated.
I'm sure it's dosage dependent that plays the biggest factor. Nothing close to a shutdown which is what truly matters because something as small as stressing over work can make you to become suppressive or working so hard with little sleep. Suppressiveness can be reversed very very easily. It's the shutdown of harsh AAS and very strong prohormones that is skeptical and scary.
I'm glad you mentioned that. This is a debate the gets brought up over and over.
Having clomid/nova on standby or actually use it after SARM cycle? I find this debated a lot. I guess only blood work before and after cycle will show if you need SERMs? I mean, If you could avoid RC SERM PCT, that would be good.
The question is how suppressive versus ph/aas? LH/FSH is not completely shutdown with ostarine/lgd after cycle? Is it something that you bounce back from fairly easy or something that you need fix to get back? I guess it is individually as many other things in life.
Indeed, you get good taste as well!
No matter what you run, whenever you play with hormones you have to have a SERM for PCT! Not only will it help you keep your gains but it's going to help keep you healthy too. The Adrenals will only take so much before they shut down.
Well, I'd have to see the invoice to believe someone spent more making a PrWO than buying one ready made. I mean, yeah, if you add the "questionably effective" patented stuff, like ElevATP, etc... which you can't buy in bulk - ok. But the basics? No way it's more expensive - at least it hasn't been for me.
How'd we get onto SARMs in a natty thread?
Can you post some links to *anything* related to Water Chestnuts and Muscle Building, please? I've looked and looked, and looked and all I can find is Indian stuff about upset tummys and toothaches or some such...
I'd love some actual peer reviewed research into it. We are looking to try to get some stuff done but unfortunately it's easier said than done to get a properly conducted scientific study going, even if the studied material is being provided. Most of the benefits I've seen are all anecdotal but you can look at people who've had good effects from USP Labs Prime back in the day and I've personally been loving it as well as other people I know. Definitely not steroidal or sarm like gains but higher than baseline for sure.Can you post some links to *anything* related to Water Chestnuts and Muscle Building, please? I've looked and looked, and looked and all I can find is Indian stuff about upset tummys and toothaches or some such...
Exactly, buying power. The bulks sold online might be $30 a tub, sure you might get 1 more month or so, but we live in a time where convenience wins.Well, I'd have to see the invoice to believe someone spent more making a PrWO than buying one ready made. I mean, yeah, if you add the "questionably effective" patented stuff, like ElevATP, etc... which you can't buy in bulk - ok. But the basics? No way it's more expensive - at least it hasn't been for me.
I do agree however, with your part about Mfg bulk prices - with most PrWO's costing $5-$7 including label and tub - they *do* get a hell of a deal
As for Flavoring - Great Value Peach Mango (Crystal Light Copy) FTW!
SARMs are natty?How'd we get onto SARMs in a natty thread?
Ostarine took user UncleSARM from 567ng/dl to Mid/Upper-100's IIRC - uh yeah, no thanks. He actually *did* attempt to recover "naturally" using a so called "natty SERM" - and didn't even make it back to PrCycle Baseline.
So yes, the body will "eventually" attempt to recover (and this is confirmed by Dr. Rand McClain) by doing nothing at all - but do you really want to wait around for months with sub-par Test levels until that happens - with a *chance* that it may not happen at all? Not me.
I never understood the rationale of people that take drugs, including *highly* experimental ones like SARMs... but then get all "I don't want to take an Rx/RC SERM"???? They're some of the safest drugs on the planet. IMO, if what you took to build muscle wasn't a crushed up plant, you took a drug, and should use a drug to recover. "SERM, it does a body good".
The best way to look at it is, no serm = no cycle.SARMs are natty?
I understand your argument and I do agree. Just confusing with all information from different sources which say you only need OTC PCT/SERM and others who state different.
The thing with SARMs is that it is pretty much uncharted territory in the dosages BBers use. So always plan for worst case
