Best nattys supps gains vs sarms gains ?

Rishy

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Hi guys, Hope everyone is doing well .
What do you think of the best natty supps avaliable today (ABE , ARA ..) Comparing to a bulking sarm (like Lgd) or a prhormone in term of gains ? Can you achieve similar gains with well rounded natty supplementantion in addition to on point diet and training.
I was looking to go for an LGD+mk677 cycle 8 weeks but if the gains would be achieved naturally in same length or maybe 1 more length later , then there is no need to touch em. If So can you suggest the best natty stack for lean bulk that will make not regretting the wasted money :lol:

I'm 21 , 187lbs , 15% bf if you are wordering.
 
AntM1564

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Nothing natural will compare with a PH or SARM.

At 21, wait a little more until you run hormones.
 

Rishy

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Nothing natural will compare with a PH or SARM.

At 21, wait a little more until you run hormones.
How much time should I wait , can I run sarms this year then cut it off? I would really like to go above the plateau . My goal is not something too irrealistic . 16lbs of lbm before 2018 , so that may equal maybe 2 cycles , Then continue naturally if possible .
 
Ricky10

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Nope, too young for any prohormones or SARMs. You should be more than happy running Follidrone 2.0 or ORIG1N though...
 
Joe12

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How much time should I wait , can I run sarms this year then cut it off? I would really like to go above the plateau . My goal is not something too irrealistic . 16lbs of lbm before 2018 , so that may equal maybe 2 cycles , Then continue naturally if possible .
If the goal is to just get big, then roll right into a solid natty cycle. If the goal is to be big and cut, then I would recommend trying to recomp to get the bf down a little more before a bulk. I only say this bc once you add a lot of fat on high bf%, its challenging to shed it.

Natty sups are not going to compare to SARMS or PH will, but if you have not tried them, you may be pleasantly surprised. Here are some to stack.

FD2, Anafuse, ARA, or ABA... you could stack any of those with AlphaMaxXT (as long as you can handle the f95 overlap with some of them). Or stack them with a thermo to keep the fat in check while bulking.
 

Rishy

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I have actually tried some of them like ARA and alphamax xt , That was Ok nothing surprising , yeah the pumps and DOMS are too huge but I didin't really get what I wanted in terms of strength and size to the point I lost motivation before ending both (20caps of ARA left) . I took some time off.
About FD2 and anafuse , most comments I saw is not worth it just placebo effect , not sure .
The problem with natty supps is they are more expensive combining them than just a cycle of lgd for exmaple and not sure of the the efficacy .
Surely I will have to lose fat to 11% before bulking ( I add weight pretty easily) or more muscle lost later.
If I can expect an increase of 8-10lbs of LBM yes LBM not water from a natty stack over the 12 coming weeks then I'm sold. If so What the stack is going to be with dosing protocol. If not I won't be sure about hormones.
Is MK677 considered too as a harmful for my age?
 
VO2Maxima

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The problem with natty supps is they are more expensive combining them than just a cycle of lgd for exmaple and not sure of the the efficacy .
Keep in mind that price-wise, it's not just the LGD. You might want a cycle support and a test base for lethargy, because it will be suppressive. And then you'll also need a PCT that includes a SERM. But more importantly, you shouldn't be choosing whether or not to turn in your natty card over price. One option being cheaper than the other isn't what should be making up your decision...lots of research on compounds (both natural and not), weighing pros and cons, doing what's going to benefit you most over the long run...THAT'S what should drive your decision.
 
Ricky10

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I know people here love ARA but it is not shocking that you were not impressed. Alphamax XT is nice but it is more of a test booster than a natural anabolic so that was probably not the best choice for you either. I would not buy Anafuse because it has no delivery system so the Laxo component is not even bioavailable. FD2, ORIG1N, and presumably MassMax XT are your best bet at the moment. Sale is still on to get FD2 or ORIG1N at Nutriverse for 20% off and I believe MassMax XT is still available at a reduced intro price through Performax? MK-677 would probably be fine for you but it is not a mass builder either. Would help recovery and maybe make you look a bit bigger just due to the bloat. It is also tricky to get used to and dose correctly without feeling like sh1t. I think you would enjoy my other 3 recommendations much more.
 
The Express 42

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I have actually tried some of them like ARA and alphamax xt , That was Ok nothing surprising , yeah the pumps and DOMS are too huge but I didin't really get what I wanted in terms of strength and size to the point I lost motivation before ending both (20caps of ARA left) . I took some time off.
About FD2 and anafuse , most comments I saw is not worth it just placebo effect , not sure .
The problem with natty supps is they are more expensive combining them than just a cycle of lgd for exmaple and not sure of the the efficacy .
Surely I will have to lose fat to 11% before bulking ( I add weight pretty easily) or more muscle lost later.
If I can expect an increase of 8-10lbs of LBM yes LBM not water from a natty stack over the 12 coming weeks then I'm sold. If so What the stack is going to be with dosing protocol. If not I won't be sure about hormones.
Is MK677 considered too as a harmful for my age?
Sounds like you have a motivation problem, which makes it more likely that your diet isn't in check. Remember they're called "supplements" for a reason. You'd be surprised with the power of food brother
 
john.patterson

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Surely I will have to lose fat to 11% before bulking ( I add weight pretty easily) or more muscle lost later.
If I can expect an increase of 8-10lbs of LBM yes LBM not water from a natty stack over the 12 coming weeks then I'm sold. If so What the stack is going to be with dosing protocol. If not I won't be sure about hormones.
I would choose one goal and stick with it. If you feel that your body fat is too high to bulk, then you might want to consider doing a cut to get your body fat to a desired level, and then slowly increase calories and put on some size.

To be perfectly honest, adding 8-10lbs of lean mass in 12 weeks naturally is an unrealistic goal, even if you were to stack the best of the best natural products. Building muscle takes time, and as a natural lifter your training and diet are the biggest components to your success. I understand the desire to get big quick and put on fast size, we've all been there and wanted results like that. But the reality is that you can't have overnight success in bodybuilding and physique goals.

I would recommend keeping it simple for now and use you basic supplements (creatine, betaine, preworkout, fish oil, and whey), and really dial in your training and diet. At 21 you shouldn't be looking into SARMs, and I think that you need to get everything else in line before you start adding in natural anabolic products. I'm not sure what your current staple supplements are, but I would suggest checking out Powermax XT. It will provide you with a full serving of creatine and betaine, as well as glycerol and taurine for hydration and pumps. I would keep it simple for now, and learn to be patient with your goals. If it were easy, everyone would be huge and shredded.
 
LeanEngineer

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Nothing natural will compare with a PH or SARM.

At 21, wait a little more until you run hormones.
I agree completely with this. It's hard to compare natural vs sarm gains because of course sarm gains are going to better because they are stronger that natural products. At 21 your natural hormone levels will be at their best so i'd agree and wait alittle longer before experimenting with ph's and sarms.
 

Rishy

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I always track that my diet and make sure that's right for the goal , I add weight pretty easy but mostly water and fat so I should always be aware of not going 400kcals above maintenance . What makes me lose motivation is stagnation at the same level after long time and feeling that the supplements that should have worked didn't as expected and food can do it by itself.
I will go for a slight cut to reduce body fat then bulk ,
What can I expect with Massmax xt , FD2, ORIG1N and powermax xt ?
What can be the potetional side effects by sarms for my age? Considering I won't run it more than 2 times for many years.
 
Joe12

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I always track that my diet and make sure that's right for the goal , I add weight pretty easy but mostly water and fat so I should always be aware of not going 400kcals above maintenance . What makes me lose motivation is stagnation at the same level after long time and feeling that the supplements that should have worked didn't as expected and food can do it by itself.
I will go for a slight cut to reduce body fat then bulk ,
What can I expect with Massmax xt , FD2, ORIG1N and powermax xt ?
What can be the potetional side effects by sarms for my age? Considering I won't run it more than 2 times for many years.
For real, you may not get what you are expecting from SARMs. I ran LGD once (and will not do it again), which is the strongest bulking SARM out there. Sure I got thicker, and yea, I put on weight, but I also put on fat. At the end of the day I suppressed my HPTA, spent a good amount of $$, and think I could have obtained the same amount if I bulked like that for about an extra month beyond the cycle. Also, keep in mind, SARMs have not gone through all the human trials that PH have. Not saying one is better then the other, but no one knows what in the world SARMs will do to you in the long run. Dial in that diet like a crazy man, put your head down and don't have cheat meals. I guarantee your before and after pics will look sick in 2-3 months time.
 
john.patterson

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I will go for a slight cut to reduce body fat then bulk ,
I always track that my diet and make sure that's right for the goal , I add weight pretty easy but mostly water and fat so I should always be aware of not going 400kcals above maintenance . What makes me lose motivation is stagnation at the same level after long time and feeling that the supplements that should have worked didn't as expected and food can do it by itself.
I will go for a slight cut to reduce body fat then bulk ,
What can I expect with Massmax xt , FD2, ORIG1N and powermax xt ?
What can be the potetional side effects by sarms for my age? Considering I won't run it more than 2 times for many years.
Sounds like a good plan. If you add weight easily, make sure your macros are in check and make sure you aren't pushing too far into a surplus when you begin your bulk.

As far as stacking those four products goes, I think it would be a bit overkill. Both MassMax XT and FD2 contain (-)-epi, and using Or1gin and MassMax XT together would give you a wicked appetite. Both products can increase hunger, so stacking them might be excessive if you're already struggling to keep calorie intake in check.

I think Powermax XT would be a good choice regardless of whether you're bulking or cutting. Its a daily ergogenic product that has benefits for either goal, so that can remain as a constant in your cutting and bulking. Aside from that, I would choose one, two at the most, additional products to add in when you begin bulking. The three you've mentioned (FD2, Massmax XT, and Or1gin) are all great products. I would start out with one and eat in a small surplus and see how things go. These products aren't anything miraculous, but if your diet and training are on point they will help you with strength and size
 

macwad

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Forget SARMs. At your age, you are naturally running an extreme PH inside your body.
You don't need anything to boost a Ferrari. That simply doesn't make sense, specially considering it may bring side effects.

A natty supp, maybe.
Go for OL Tr1umph, which has PA, creatine and other goodies. Or PowerMax XT.
If I were you, that would be enough.
If you wanna get fancy, yeah, add only one of the already suggested Orig1n, FD2, MassMaxXT.
 

Rishy

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Thanks for help ,
macwad if there a huge PH running inside my body why I'm struggling to break the plateau for much time , 1-2lbs LBM per year for the last 2 years.

To recap I should go Tr1umph/Powermax XT, FD2 and Massmax XT If I can't expect a noticeable change in 8 weeks.(expecting 4lbs LBM not 1lbs or 0,5)
Directly to a PH cycle if SARMS doesn't give what promised.
Because As I mentioned before if there is no much long term damage from 1 and only cycle(10-12lbs LBM gain) for many many years. I would go for it , If there is fine. Is there any?
 
john.patterson

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Directly to a PH cycle if SARMS doesn't give what promised.
Because As I mentioned before if there is no much long term damage from 1 and only cycle(10-12lbs LBM gain) for many many years. I would go for it , If there is fine. Is there any?
A single PH cycle will not yield 10-12lbs of "lean" mass. You might gain 10-12 pounds during a cycle, but PH's can be risky. And the chances of losing the weight after your cycle is high. You also risk interfering with natural hormone production, which can lead to gyno (man boobs) and other libido and testosterone issues. There are many who have done successful PH cycles, but there are also a lot of horror stories that you don't hear about as often.

And also, I hate to be rude, but what is the big rush? Why are you so anxious to put on muscle so quickly? You need to understand that there is no overnight success in building muscle, and there are no shortcuts. Put in the work. Be consistent. And the results will come.
 
VO2Maxima

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Thanks for help ,
macwad if there a huge PH running inside my body why I'm struggling to break the plateau for much time , 1-2lbs LBM per year for the last 2 years.

To recap I should go Tr1umph/Powermax XT, FD2 and Massmax XT If I can't expect a noticeable change in 8 weeks.(expecting 4lbs LBM not 1lbs or 0,5)
Directly to a PH cycle if SARMS doesn't give what promised.
Because As I mentioned before if there is no much long term damage from 1 and only cycle(10-12lbs LBM gain) for many many years. I would go for it , If there is fine. Is there any?
There are a thousand possible reasons why you're struggling to get past a plateau. You've told us nothing about your training and training history, diet, etc. We don't even know how tall you are...you could be 5'4 187lbs or 6'7 187lbs, and those two examples are built very differently. How do you know how much lean mass you've gained and what body fat you're at anyway? DEXA? Hydrostatic weighing? If it's a BIA device, I wouldn't trust that.

No one can tell you whether or not you'll experience negative side effects, or whether or not they'll be something that goes away as soon as you go off. Obviously some compounds carry higher risks than others, and there are steps you can take to lower the risk of sides, but no one can say for sure whether or not you'll encounter problems or whether or not those problems will be easily reversible. If you're not willing to accept the possibility of sides, you have no business running a cycle.

As far as natty supps go, Tr1umph is a great suggestion. It's a natural anabolic and ergogenic supplement that has ingredients that help with power output, lean body mass accrual, recovery, endurance and fatigue mitigation, etc. Furthermore, it is not going to give you hormonal sides, you don't need any cycle support or PCT, and you can stay on it year round if you'd like. If you have any questions about any of the ingredients in there, please let me know and I'll do my best to assist.
And Or1gin was also brought up...that's another natural anabolic that contains ingredients that have effects on appetite stimulation, digestion, and muscle anabolism. More food + anabolic state may be what you need to get past your current plateau (well, part of what you need...there is still a high probability of a training or recovery factor).
 

Rishy

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My training and Diet is on point , I did many 5x5 (didn't like it much ) , PHAT (not so good results) What worked for me is INTENSE PPL 2x/week with 3x5 strength sets or INTENSE bro split with strength 3x5 sets working every part once/6days.
What I mean with plateau 2 things: in bulk adding fat only no noticeable muscle with even small surplus
In cutting : reaching fat loss plateau about 13-12% BF then losing fat slooowly andt just losing muscle and strength after the glycogen stores are depleted fully so more flat look .
I go with mirror,weight and measurements to evaluate the progress and bodyfat.
I'm 5ft11 187lbs about 15%BF
I'm not in a rush to get big , just lost motivation of plateauing for a long long time , I want to get that higher level and then plateau no problem and be able to focus on other sports like mma/soccer.. I should get big this year no excuses Realistically big .
 

macwad

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Thanks for help ,
macwad if there a huge PH running inside my body why I'm struggling to break the plateau for much time , 1-2lbs LBM per year for the last 2 years.

To recap I should go Tr1umph/Powermax XT, FD2 and Massmax XT If I can't expect a noticeable change in 8 weeks.(expecting 4lbs LBM not 1lbs or 0,5)
Directly to a PH cycle if SARMS doesn't give what promised.
Because As I mentioned before if there is no much long term damage from 1 and only cycle(10-12lbs LBM gain) for many many years. I would go for it , If there is fine. Is there any?
How is your diet and training?
Are you taking enough protein? 30g at every 3h?
Are you doing too much LISS cardio? Try HIIT instead.
How many workouts/week? At least 5 (maybe 4)?
Do you emphasize the compounds lifts?
Do you have at least 7h of sleep?
Have you tried supersets, drop sets?
What training program are you following?
Is it periodized?
Try PHAT, by Layne Norton. Or PH3.

One more stuff to try is HMB. In bulk, it's quite cheap. It is highly anti-catabolic, will make you recover much faster, than you can train harder and more often.
 
VO2Maxima

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My training and Diet is on point , I did many 5x5 (didn't like it much ) , PHAT (not so good results) What worked for me is INTENSE PPL 2x/week with 3x5 strength sets or INTENSE bro split with strength 3x5 sets working every part once/6days.
What I mean with plateau 2 things: in bulk adding fat only no noticeable muscle with even small surplus
In cutting : reaching fat loss plateau about 13-12% BF then losing fat slooowly andt just losing muscle and strength after the glycogen stores are depleted fully so more flat look .
I go with mirror,weight and measurements to evaluate the progress and bodyfat.
I'm 5ft11 187lbs about 15%BF
I'm not in a rush to get big , just lost motivation of plateauing for a long long time , I want to get that higher level and then plateau no problem and be able to focus on other sports like mma/soccer.. I should get big this year no excuses Realistically big .
This still tells me nothing about your progression and periodization. Is it linear? Block? Undulating? Conjugate? That's more important than whether it's a PPL or bro split or whatever.

Muscle gain during a bulk often isn't noticeable to you. It happens slowly. When I look at pictures from a few months ago, I look the same, at least to my eye. Look at pictures from a year and a half ago, and there's a marked difference. Patience is key here, and that goes for both natural and enhanced athletes. And you should be losing fat slowly during a bulk. There will most likely be some muscle and strength loss, but if you're losing it that early, then it's either a problem with your diet or again, a problem with your training.

If you run something, then come off and focus on MMA and soccer, you will almost certainly lose whatever you gained while on.
 

Rishy

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How is your diet and training? I track my Diet
Are you taking enough protein? 30g at every 3h? I was doing that but I get bloated , So i didived to 180g/day 3 times and post workout shake
Are you doing too much LISS cardio? Try HIIT instead. HIIT always I like Intensified rather
How many workouts/week? At least 5 (maybe 4)? 5 to 6
Do you emphasize the compounds lifts? Yes dumbells and barbells way better
Do you have at least 7h of sleep? 7-8
Have you tried supersets, drop sets? Yes waaay better pumps and intesity
What training program are you following? Now , I stopped for a little to bring my motivation up then go again PPL 2x/week or Bro split with 3x5 strengths sets before for both
Is it periodized? I think
 

Rishy

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This still tells me nothing about your progression and periodization. Is it linear? Block? Undulating? Conjugate? That's more important than whether it's a PPL or bro split or whatever.

Muscle gain during a bulk often isn't noticeable to you. It happens slowly. When I look at pictures from a few months ago, I look the same, at least to my eye. Look at pictures from a year and a half ago, and there's a marked difference. Patience is key here, and that goes for both natural and enhanced athletes. And you should be losing fat slowly during a bulk. There will most likely be some muscle and strength loss, but if you're losing it that early, then it's either a problem with your diet or again, a problem with your training.

If you run something, then come off and focus on MMA and soccer, you will almost certainly lose whatever you gained while on.
It's linear I add 5lbs whenever I feel I can so 2-3 weeks.
I meant with sports that I will still progress on weightlifting I will do something like 4 times/week to focus more on others
 
VO2Maxima

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It's linear I add 5lbs whenever I feel I can so 2-3 weeks.
There's issue #1. Get on a better training plan that defines some sort of progression and periodization. If what you were doing was working for you, that would be one thing, but it's clearly not. Texas Method, Cube, 5/3/1, Conjugate/Westside, Juggernaut, Candito, etc. There are a ton of options, most of which will likely be better than what you're doing now if your periodization just consists of adding weight "whenever you feel you can."
 

Rishy

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I took a look before , strength programs like 5x5 and 5/3/1 I feel I don't work out with a high intensity where I can burn more calories and feel like I'm drained.
I get quite easily fat with working out 3days per week without a good intensity nor for the gains. Can be wrong
 
VO2Maxima

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I took a look before , strength programs like 5x5 and 5/3/1 I feel I don't work out with a high intensity where I can burn more calories and feel like I'm drained.
I get quite easily fat with working out 3days per week without a good intensity nor for the gains. Can be wrong
Feeling drained isn't necessarily the best indication of a good workout. If you went out and ran 20 miles, you'd feel drained and burn a ton of calories, but it wouldn't help your lifting goals. Although I'd argue that if you can run a 5x5 or 5/3/1 and not feel drained afterward, you're probably not running it properly.
 

Rishy

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I meant , I feel the muscle worked gave it best. on 5x5 i feel worked out yh and good but I just need some little more and some more hypertrphy. that's why I add 3setsx5 before hypertrophy training
 
Woody

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If you get fat easily by only working out 3x a week, you need to adjust your diet.
A plateau during a cut is normal. Bump your cals up a little for a week and then go back down.
Your training needs progression like VO2Maxima stated. Throwing weights whenever you feel like you can isn't a good plan lol.

You don't need to beat yourself to **** and drain yourself to have a good workout. IMO you should focus on the basics before doing a cycle. The reason you saw mediocre results with the natty products is likely due to mediocre diet and training. Taking a SARM won't pack on 10 lbs of muscle if you don't have diet and training down.

What's your TDEE? What do you take in on a bulk? On a cut? What's your macro distribution? Total intake is farrrrrr more important than meal timing.

A SARM won't give you motivation. If anything it'll give you lethargy. Are you stressed? High stress + bad diet + bad training = bad results.
 

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I have to agree with a lot of people here. SARMS are not cheap after you factor crap you have to add during cycle to combat lethargy, Diminished sex drive etc.. throw in a good PCT and you are probably around $150 on the low end and that's not including the SARM. PH you will likely need more on cycle support and definitely a good PCT or you wasted all your money and time. I did not even start playing with this stuff until 29 / 30 and have learned a lot.
 

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I have ran Alphamax OG with norcodrene in the past with great results, but I am looking to up the ante a bit.

I just started Alphamax XT, Norcodrene, and Powermax XT. I am considering adding Alphamine and Shift.... Would this be overkill? I haven't experienced any issues with F95, but also haven't tried overlapping it with shift.

FYI - goal is to recomp/cut. Currently 185lbs 15% BF. Would like to keep the same weight and maybe get to 10% BF.
 

Rishy

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TDEE 2700Kcals , Don't worry about Diet I have a diploma in nutrition of sports. Macros , 40% Carbs 30%Protein and 30% Fat
3000-3100Kcals for bulk.
For cutting it depends going from 2400-1900Kcals starting with 35%carbs to 25%. Protein 180g/daily
You didn't understand I add 5lbs evrey two weeks three weeks is because I can't just add weight every week ,
For example 3x5 of bench press : first week I can do 5 heavy reps , next week maybe I feel I can't do more than the weight I used last time for a solid 5 reps , if not I do the first set like last week then add weight on the second third set. I want to keep things not complicated.
I think you didn't understand what I meant with bad results. I have results but I can't go beyond it I'm 5ft11 187lbs 15% , my best was 185lbs 11%.
I want that next level : next level is a great physique maybe like jeff seid not too big but good overall physique for example ( just an example).
 

Rishy

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I made some calculations for price :
Massmax xt+ Tr1umph+ ARA+ ABE for 8 weeks = about $370
LGD + Ar1macre + SERM + ALPHAMAX 8 weeks cycle + 4 weeks pct = about $180

That's just for information not pointing I should use one over one just regarding price
 

S.Dedication

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Not sure where you are getting your LGD, I normally see it priced more towards the 100 range and SERMS around 60 ish
 
cubsfan815

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I made some calculations for price :
Massmax xt+ Tr1umph+ ARA+ ABE for 8 weeks = about $370
LGD + Ar1macre + SERM + ALPHAMAX 8 weeks cycle + 4 weeks pct = about $180

That's just for information not pointing I should use one over one just regarding price
You could turn option 1 into 16 week run easily, and overlap the MassMax XT and ABE with your ArA and Tr1umph.
1-4 MassMax XT
4-8 MassMax XT and ArA plus Tr1umph
8-12 ABE ArA plus Tr1umph
12-16 ABE

Something like that if you want to stack. Powermax XT can be used as your ergogenic when nit using Tr1umph, if you want some variety.
 

Rishy

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You could turn option 1 into 16 week run easily, and overlap the MassMax XT and ABE with your ArA and Tr1umph.
1-4 MassMax XT
4-8 MassMax XT and ArA plus Tr1umph
8-12 ABE ArA plus Tr1umph
12-16 ABE

Something like that if you want to stack. Powermax XT can be used as your ergogenic when nit using Tr1umph, if you want some variety.
In term of efficacy is it one of the best? expecting noticeable things over the 16weeks
 
cubsfan815

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In term of efficacy is it one of the best? expecting noticeable things over the 16weeks
Well, I have not ran MassMax XT yet, however all of our intial loggers had success with it. ArA and ABE are great natty products, and Tr1umph is nice as well. I would say it's a great stack.

Like others stated though, at 21 you should be making killer gains already. I'll trade you a natty stack, you send me your 21yo test level lol.
 

macwad

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In term of efficacy is it one of the best? expecting noticeable things over the 16weeks
Yes, definitely.
To improve it, run Tr1umph for the 16 weeks. It has creatine, which should be present for the whole period
 

De__eB

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SARMs are garbage for muscle-building, and do not work out favorably on price, results, or side effects compared to mild prohormones.

If you're gonna go that route, buy some Sup3r-1 from OlympusUK and enjoy your cheaper more effective product.

---

I'd also advise you to stick to being natty for now, you've almost certainly got more room to grow without taking a PH or SARM.

Possibly give ARA such as our SNS X-gels product a look.
 
Ricky10

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SARMs are garbage for muscle-building, and do not work out favorably on price, results, or side effects compared to mild prohormones.

If you're gonna go that route, buy some Sup3r-1 from OlympusUK and enjoy your cheaper more effective product.

---

I'd also advise you to stick to being natty for now, you've almost certainly got more room to grow without taking a PH or SARM.

Possibly give ARA such as our SNS X-gels product a look.
I don't think it is fair to say that SARMs are garbage. As long as they are legit, it is a fairly close split between those who think the Andros are worthless to those who may say SARMs are worthless. I so happen to respond well to just about everything. My androgen receptors don't discriminate..they let everyone in for the party!

To OP. I don't think you should run ARA again as you already have done so and you were not so thrilled. You should go into this with a positive attitude and excited to try different products. I think you mentioned getting FD2 and MassMax? Choose one or the other as that would be way too much (-)epi. Triumph sounds like a good call as others suggested and then you should possibly go with the MassMax XT as it will give you full doses of a variety of natural anabolics so you really can't lose. I know nobody had tried it aside from beta testers but that is kind of even more exciting and motivating! Back to the MK-677, I would definitely stay away from that since you state that you are prone to weight gain that is not lean mass when in a caloric surplus. The chances of you getting discouraged with MK are very high.
 
Joe12

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I made some calculations for price :
Massmax xt+ Tr1umph+ ARA+ ABE for 8 weeks = about $370
LGD + Ar1macre + SERM + ALPHAMAX 8 weeks cycle + 4 weeks pct = about $180

That's just for information not pointing I should use one over one just regarding price
I'm not encouraging you to take Sarms or PH, but heck, from the sounds of your post it seems like that is the direction you are heading. If you are going to do it you might as well get the best gains possible. Stack Andro1&4 for 8-weeks. Eat 500 over maintenance and you should put on 10+ lbs very easily.

I'm personally not a fan of Sarms because no one knows what the long term affects of them are, only the short term, and that is not 100% conclusive. This is an overlooked point on majority of the threads on AM.
 

De__eB

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I don't think it is fair to say that SARMs are garbage. As long as they are legit, it is a fairly close split between those who think the Andros are worthless to those who may say SARMs are worthless. I so happen to respond well to just about everything. My androgen receptors don't discriminate..they let everyone in for the party!

To OP. I don't think you should run ARA again as you already have done so and you were not so thrilled. You should go into this with a positive attitude and excited to try different products. I think you mentioned getting FD2 and MassMax? Choose one or the other as that would be way too much (-)epi. Triumph sounds like a good call as others suggested and then you should possibly go with the MassMax XT as it will give you full doses of a variety of natural anabolics so you really can't lose. I know nobody had tried it aside from beta testers but that is kind of even more exciting and motivating! Back to the MK-677, I would definitely stay away from that since you state that you are prone to weight gain that is not lean mass when in a caloric surplus. The chances of you getting discouraged with MK are very high.

Study data pretty clearly demonstrates which is better.
 
Nac

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Study data pretty clearly demonstrates which is better.
Is there study data on LGD where the subjects were regular resistance trainees; or, study data on 1-dhea where the subjects were aged and sedentary?
 

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I'm not encouraging you to take Sarms or PH, but heck, from the sounds of your post it seems like that is the direction you are heading. If you are going to do it you might as well get the best gains possible. Stack Andro1&4 for 8-weeks. Eat 500 over maintenance and you should put on 10+ lbs very easily.

I'm personally not a fan of Sarms because no one knows what the long term affects of them are, only the short term, and that is not 100% conclusive. This is an overlooked point on majority of the threads on AM.
Lol , you knew it , I'm still not convinced about the natty thing , I want to but I feel like I will waste more. But I'm not sure if 1/4andro is the best choice for me because , one member of my family took em together and after 4 weeks he got weaker, tired all the time and rash in some areas of the body. He went to dr and put him on cortisol , later he went a specialist he told him he have to stop taking andros because , the body recognize it as an danger , and if he continue to take andros based he might face death . He did bloodwork he got high ferritin and liver enzymes.
I'm afraid that will happen to me too.
Btw Will one cycle will hurt in the long term? Or repetitive cycles do?
 
Nac

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Lol you wont do just one cycle. What typically happens is the newb realises at some point, either during their cycle or after that, hey, this wasnt as bad (or good) as I thought it was gonna be. And so you do more cycles.

Its like anything that has scary prejudices attached to it. Once you actually try it you realise its really not that scary.
 

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Lol you wont do just one cycle. What typically happens is the newb realises at some point, either during their cycle or after that, hey, this wasnt as bad (or good) as I thought it was gonna be. And so you do more cycles.

Its like anything that has scary prejudices attached to it. Once you actually try it you realise its really not that scary.
Yes that what I discovered from others but I think with the power of will:08: I can even reduce the amount , from wich cycle things start to go badly?
 
Nac

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Yes that what I discovered from others but I think with the power of will:08: I can even reduce the amount , from wich cycle things start to go badly?
Sorry to be pessimistic but if you lack the will-power to refrain from doing a first cycle at all, then...
 
Joe12

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Lol , you knew it , I'm still not convinced about the natty thing , I want to but I feel like I will waste more. But I'm not sure if 1/4andro is the best choice for me because , one member of my family took em together and after 4 weeks he got weaker, tired all the time and rash in some areas of the body. He went to dr and put him on cortisol , later he went a specialist he told him he have to stop taking andros because , the body recognize it as an danger , and if he continue to take andros based he might face death . He did bloodwork he got high ferritin and liver enzymes.
I'm afraid that will happen to me too.
Btw Will one cycle will hurt in the long term? Or repetitive cycles do?
Dang, that really suck for your family member. Wonder how much he was taking and if he was using on-cycle. 1&4 are non-mentholated, so they should not spike your liver enzymes. But heck, anything is possible when taking compounds. If there is something in your family line that just rejects them, you would might want to avoid them. Or if you go that route, get blood ran before, in the middle, and after the run to see where you are.
 

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He was using the ones from olympus labs 3caps daily each one with ar1macare. The Dr said that the body rejects it as something toxic doesn't know what to do with. About results he got weaker because liver was not functioning the right way. I prefer to use something else if possible.
To know it didn't work , he didn't use any serm just super pct , done blood for test find no supression. The day after stopping andros he was feeling much better.
 

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