DAA -still useful?

[Toff]

So after the big craze with DAA being the only booster with human studies, boosting for 12 days.. it seems it decreases test over longer periods.

Im now wondering if it still has use, in a 12 on 12 off scenario or as USP did 6 days on one day off

with something now so cheap, bulk, is it still useful? Through PCT or after pct maybe as a boost. Examine.com still suggests its good at getting the testes going for a couple of weeks then they baseline again

 

[LeanEngineer]

I think it's still a good addition to your PCT if you can find it at the right price. The popularity of including it in your pct has definitely gone down since that study was released.

 

[R1balla]

I like enjoy it. See libido and acne increase from it when using it solo. I like to stack it. AlphaMax XT with DAA and ArA treated me well a few months back.

 

[justhere4comm]

It should probably only be Sodium D-Aspartate.

This is the only one providing a positive result in study.

 

[lifted67]

Good if you need to poop that's for sure lol

 

[justhere4comm]

Post workout poop for the win.

Now then. The question looming is. Who carries a supp that uses Na D-Aspartate?

Beuller
Beuller?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Chem Spider lists D-Aspartic Acid as an approved synonym for Sodium D-Aspartate: Does anyone (like a board sponsor who sells it) know exactly if they are one in the same?

Questionable (to say the least) if used solo IMO. Absolute waste if using a SERM.

 

[Synapsin]

Very debatable, only early results were any decent. I personally wouldn't use it.

 

[masterpiter]

Daa is usless !

If u see any results from it, then its not from the daa but rather placebo or something else.
Let me say it this way: u have more chances to boost ur test lvls with a banana then with daa.
Dont belive me that daa is usless crap horse **** ( sorry for my language),
then google please daa bloodworks.
You WONT FIND 1 positive bloodwork.
Most of them show decrased test lvls after using daa !!!
Sadly i wasted my money on daa too, wish i had done more research.

 

[The Express 42]

Back when I was an idiot (still am a little bit) and asking around what I can run for my PCT I had guys telling me DAA would suffice on its own. SMH

 

[R1balla]

Back when I was an idiot (still am a little bit) and asking around what I can run for my PCT I had guys telling me DAA would suffice on its own. SMH

Wow lol

 

[The Express 42]

Yeah shady stuff, mostly just website reps selling that stuff that come up in that little chat box in the corner lol

 

[justhere4comm]

Daa is usless !

If u see any results from it, then its not from the daa but rather placebo or something else.
Let me say it this way: u have more chances to boost ur test lvls with a banana then with daa.
Dont belive me that daa is usless crap horse **** ( sorry for my language),
then google please daa bloodworks.
You WONT FIND 1 positive bloodwork.
Most of them show decrased test lvls after using daa !!!
Sadly i wasted my money on daa too, wish i had done more research.

I'm going to disagree with you here. It isn't useless, and here are two studies showing as such in humans.

"Increase in LH and Testosterone"

This:

https://www.anabolicmen.com/d-aspartic-acid-testosterone-levels/

and this.

"Results
In humans and rats, sodium D-aspartate induces an enhancement of LH and testosterone release. In the rat pituitary, sodium D-aspartate increases the release and synthesis of LH through the involvement of cGMP as a second messenger, whereas in rat testis Leydig cells, it increases the synthesis and release of testosterone and cAMP is implicated as second messenger. In the pituitary and in testes D-Asp is synthesized by a D-aspartate racemase which convert L-Asp into D-Asp. The pituitary and testes possesses a high capacity to trapping circulating D-Asp from hexogen or endogen sources.

Conclusion
D-aspartic acid is a physiological amino acid occurring principally in the pituitary gland and testes and has a role in the regulation of the release and synthesis of LH and testosterone in humans and rats."


http://rbej.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1477-7827-7-120


"Fertility" (+)

"The results obtained in this study indicated that in both oligo-asthenozoospermic and asthenozoospermic subjects that treatment with sodium D-aspartate improved significantly the concentration of spermatozoa and their motility. "


http://file.scirp.org/Html/1-1990018_24016.htm



Summary:

Na D-Aspartate does increase Testosterone. 12 days on and 12 days off to avoid a negative feedback loop.

 

[bigsmall]

Good o'le cheap DAA gives me great pumps, strength, libido, better sleep etc... never got bloods and don't really care...I lift naturally and it helps big time. It puts my body into a positive state to lift and y experience is positive (less injuries and tweaks, more control etc..).

 

[Toff]

im getting some bulk for £4

I recall if taken at night i couldnt sleep but in th emorning it would send me crazy libido wise, beyond the placebo possibilities

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I'm going to disagree with you here. It isn't useless, and here are two studies showing as such in humans.

Your first study: Topo 2009, is the Italian one with sedentary men with Low T. The second one is on men with "very few swimmers in the pool". Willoughby 2013 showed that in healthy trained men with normal T, DAA does nothing.

Even if you have low T for some reason (why? genetic or exogenous hormone use?), It's still useless - a 40% increase does almost nothing when you are at 200ng/dl (you'd then be at 280ng/dl - break out the party hats). TRT for genetics, or a SERM for exogenous hormone use is money better spent.

 

[justhere4comm]

Your first study: Topo 2009, is the Italian one with sedentary men with Low T. The second one is on men with "very few swimmers in the pool". Willoughby 2013 showed that in healthy trained men with normal T, DAA does nothing.

Even if you have low T for some reason (why? genetic or exogenous hormone use?), It's still useless - a 40% increase does almost nothing when you are at 200ng/dl (you'd then be at 280ng/dl - break out the party hats). TRT for genetics, or a SERM for exogenous hormone use is money better spent.

While I agree on one hand. Running a serm post PCT to maintain T levels isn't really a good idea. I may be wrong.

But.
In between cycles is the target I was referring to while not being clear.

Accompany this with complimentary supps and it could help. Especially in those above 40.

Thoughts?

 

[Synapsin]

While I agree on one hand. Running a serm post PCT to maintain T levels isn't really a good idea. I may be wrong.

But.
In between cycles is the target I was referring to while not being clear.

Accompany this with complimentary supps and it could help. Especially in those above 40.

Thoughts?

Might improve libido but that's about it. No noticeable increase in muscle mass, etc. Better alternatives to improve libido.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

If you're low (hypo?) during off-cycle, quit doing cycles and see an endocrinologist would be my advice. Also, these things are not additive - it's not like stacking every natural product that claims to raise T, will put you top-of-range from hypo or low-normal.

 

[BloodManor]

Post workout poop for the win.

Now then. The question looming is. Who carries a supp that uses Na D-Aspartate?

Beuller
Beuller?

New sup3r pct by Olympus labs uses sodium daa

 

[justhere4comm]

New sup3r pct by Olympus labs uses sodium daa

So OL sees value in it. Same for Trans-reveratrol.

 

[Toff]

googling this seems to make logical sense:


DAA (am), L-dopa (pm), AI (am) = test up, estrogen down, prolactin down, GH up,
"It basically has two modalities in humans: i) to indirectly stimulate testosterone production through increasing GnRH (gonadotropin releasing hormone) secretion and subsequently LH (luteinizing hormone) in the brain, and ii) to up-regulate testosterone synthesis directly in the testes by acting in leydig cells, the cells that are involved in producing testosterone in men.

The first, indirect pathway is obviously the one that has people worried about neurotoxicity. It is more associated with NMDA, a metabolite of d-aspartate, than DAA itself. DAA is actually already present in high concentrations in the human hypothalamus. This scenario of neurotoxicity is so ridiculously unlikely that I won't even go into it; in fact, I think that the second pathway, the one directly in the testes, is just as important in DAA's test-boosting effectiveness. Its action is not through luteinizing hormone, but through a binding protein called steroidogenic acute regulatory protein (StAR). This protein is responsible for transporting cholesterol molecules to the inside of leydig cells so they can be converted to testosterone... this is crucial.

Unfortunately, the data shows that DAA does in fact increase prolactin secretion in a statistically significant manner against control, so the first pathway must also be significant, since LH is also involved in prolactin secretion. This is the reason why broscientists think that tamoxifen is not adequate for PCT after using a progestin compound, because it has been to shown to directly stimulate LH production and sensitivity in the pituitary. Newsflash for the numbnuts- SERMs gonna SERM. Deal with it. Fertility research in men using clomid conclusively supports the proposed increases in prolactin that come with increasing LH. It's inevitable without some kind of prolactin antagonizing therapy.

With both pathways considered, the end result is always in the testes. We have increases in LH, which stimulates testosterone production, and increases in StAR protein, which is the rate-limiting step in testicular testosterone production. So, that said, the best way to potentiate and increase the test-boosting effects of DAA is with an aromatase inhibitor and something to modulate prolactin secretion- preferable, mucuna. I have a boner for mucuna as a source of l-dopa because there is more to it, specifically, some interesting molecules that also affect GH secretion through receptors called mu opioid. These molecules, as I have theorized, are the reason why relevant research has shown mucuna extract to be more effective at increasing GH.

My recommendations for 4-8 weeks of daily DAA supplementation for testosterone-boosting are as follows:
3g DAA
500mg mucuna pruriens extract (20% l-dopa) 2x daily (upon waking, before bed)
Aromatase inhibitor of choice (I would prefer anything but ATD)."

 

[Young Gotti]

I always said, it did nothing in the gym for me, and I used to get a lot of slack for it but it is useless in terms of gym performance imo.....but if your coming off of a cycle, then it's a cheap way to get test levels elevated again as PART of pct

 

[The_Old_Guy]

googling this seems to make logical sense:

That ^ appears on 3 total sites, all in late 2010/early 2011, by a 'wannabebig25' or a quote of him. Looks like it originated on T-Nation. Who is he? I'll take Wiloughby 2013 over 'wannabe' 2011, but to each their own

 

[The_Old_Guy]

So OL sees value in it. Same for Trans-reveratrol.

Just because it appears in anyone's supplement - doesn't mean it's effective in healthy, resistance trained, male, human beings. A lot of companies put Red Yeast Rice in products - but per FDA Regulation, it can't have "any appreciable amounts of Monacolin K" A.K.A. 'Lovastatin' in it (ie. the stuff that does anything for lipids). It would be an unapproved drug. See:

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2014/ucm396822.htm

 

[justhere4comm]

I always said, it did nothing in the gym for me, and I used to get a lot of slack for it but it is useless in terms of gym performance imo.....but if your coming off of a cycle, then it's a cheap way to get test levels elevated again as PART of pct

Clomid.

 

[ericos_bob]

Sounds like it could make a decent PCT for PCT. Utilizing a SERM being paramount but we then suffer a lowering of IGF1 at completion of PCT. Would administration of DAA in combination with an effective AI taken a week after completion of PCT (due to the long SERM half life) help restore IGF1 levels?

 

[justhere4comm]

Sounds like it could make a decent PCT for PCT. Utilizing a SERM being paramount but we then suffer a lowering of IGF1 at completion of PCT. Would administration of DAA in combination with an effective AI taken a week after completion of PCT (due to the long SERM half life) help restore IGF1 levels?

Maybe if it were Na D-Aspartate but not plain DAA as per numerous studies. I see it as a waste of money.

I am taking other more proven supps to raise IGF1 during my PCT. Tapering the SERM(s). Clomid and Rebirth for example (which has been compared to Nolva) for an extended PCT.

Bridging other supps past PCT in an effort to preserve ongoing IGF1 levels.

Exotherm alone has some great value with regard to increasing Ghrelin. I can feel this after 1 day with it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/black-lion-research/270695-exotherm-faq.html

Someone else can chime in with more experience than me.

As long as gains are locked in however and maintained (reason for a solid PCT)

Caveat added. Maybe like in my readings regarding laxo some are receptive and others not, it might be possible there is a similar parallel with DAA.

I don't have experience with either to draw any personal conclusions on the matter except provide food for further thought and investigation.

 

[kisaj]

It's awesome if you are looking for headaches, little to no test increase, and an increase in estrogen.

 

[masterpiter]

It's awesome if you are looking for headaches, little to no test increase, and an increase in estrogen.

Amen !
People should just take a look at the bloodwork on daa, plenty of that on the internet.

 

[ericos_bob]

It doesn't sound good to me. Don't take creatine either due to the headaches. Will steer clear of DAA.

 

[justhere4comm]

Never got a headache from Creatine and plenty of research on its benefits.

DAA however is worthless in comparison.

Vitamin A and D3 are a much more effective combination.

 

[ericos_bob]

Yeah I'm in the minority. I wish I could supplement creatine as I've seen the benefits it's provided other users. Tried everything, regular,micronized etc and drinking huge amounts of water. Body just doesn't like it at recommended dosages. A mate has the same issues with it plus he gives him the runs. Will just take what little creatine I can get from food and protein.

I take Vitamin D3 but not in conjunction with Vitamin A

 

[justhere4comm]

Yeah I'm in the minority. I wish I could supplement creatine as I've seen the benefits it's provided other users. Tried everything, regular,micronized etc and drinking huge amounts of water. Body just doesn't like it at recommended dosages. A mate has the same issues with it plus he gives him the runs. Will just take what little creatine I can get from food and protein.

I take Vitamin D3 but not in conjunction with Vitamin A

Sorry to hear about your response to Creatine, (what dose?)which I find odd because as long as you stay hydrated you'd not get any headaches. That's caused by dehydration.

How about Taurine, (I take it for back pumps 8g daily) it's great for aerobic capacity. Also, regarding Vitamin A in conjunction with D3, and how they interact. I cannot seem to locate the study I was reading. I don't think you don't need to supplement more Vitamin A.

Cheers!

 

[ericos_bob]

Yeah the dehydration is what i was told. I honestly couldn't have drank more water. Was pissing every 5 minutes. I don't recall the exact dose as i haven't taken it in 10 years. Was somthing along the lines of 20 g loading and 5g maintenance. I'm definitely keen on the Taurine I'll be trying it out when I run a first cycle down the track but perhaps give it a go running natty if it's of help for aerobic capacity. Could come in handy on high rep squat days. :cheers:

 

[justhere4comm]

Yeah the dehydration is what i was told. I honestly couldn't have drank more water. Was pissing every 5 minutes. I don't recall the exact dose as i haven't taken it in 10 years. Was somthing along the lines of 20 g loading and 5g maintenance. I'm definitely keen on the Taurine I'll be trying it out when I run a first cycle down the track but perhaps give it a go running natty if it's of help for aerobic capacity. Could come in handy on high rep squat days. :cheers:

Well you don't need to preload it. 3 grams daily is effective as any.

Good luck ma man.

Cheers!

 

[EricIrons]

Sodium or Calcium DAA truly does work. While it may be used interchangeably and they are NOT the same. WE use Na-DAAspartate in our Rise and Swell product and I am telling you the stuff works.

Pat Arnold called this right from the get go (giving credit where it is due) and sadly no one listened to him and DAA supplements were tarnished as a result. Hard to find pure Na-DA-Apartate.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

A translation of DADAVIT® (which was used in the 2009 Topo study that started the whole she-bang):

Dadavit
indications
It intended to balance the functional deficiencies of the spermatogenic cycle.

Dosage and mode of use
1 bottle a day after the main meal. Dissolve the contents of the cap and the liquid of the vial in half a glass of water or fruit juice.
We recommend continuous intake for a period of 90 days.
Shake well before use.

components
purified water; sodium hydroxide; d-aspartic acid; potassium sorbate; sodium benzoate.
the dosage stopper: maltodextrin; Vitamin B6; folic acid; Vitamin B12.

Format
15 vials of 10 ml.

I'd need to see some references to the special form of DAA that actually "works" in healthy, resistance trained, males (Chemspider says it's all the same - but I'm no chemist)

Also, it seems that Pharmaguida, the original mfg that was also the supplier in the Topo study, no longer makes it: Pharmaguida | PRODUCTS

From the study:

Commercial integrator consisting of sodium D-aspartate and vitamins, produced by the 'Pharmaguida s.r.l., Italy'; (cGMP)

 

[justhere4comm]

Sodium or Calcium DAA truly does work. While it may be used interchangeably and they are NOT the same. WE use Na-DAAspartate in our Rise and Swell product and I am telling you the stuff works.

Pat Arnold called this right from the get go (giving credit where it is due) and sadly no one listened to him and DAA supplements were tarnished as a result. Hard to find pure Na-DA-Apartate.

I've looked for Na D-aspartate and it's nowhere. It's all DAA. Not with my wallet.

I would give Rise and Swell a glance.

 

[kisaj]

A translation of DADAVIT (which was used in the 2009 Topo study that started the whole she-bang):



I'd need to see some references to the special form of DAA that actually "works" in healthy, resistance trained, males (Chemspider says it's all the same - but I'm no chemist)

Also, it seems that Pharmaguida, the original mfg that was also the supplier in the Topo study, no longer makes it: Pharmaguida | PRODUCTS

From the study:

Yeah, I don't believe any of it. There is a clear lack of any real evidence it works and anecdotal evidence tells me it is horrible. If there is actual proof in further studies and labs posted from users, then let's see them. To just say it works and everyone pointing to the same couple of studies does nothing.

 

[bigsmall]

I run cheap o'le DAA for 2-3 months a couple times a year and it gives me great pumps, increased strength and control.

 

[ucheoma]

Haha. Funny guy you are !

 

[ericos_bob]

Well you don't need to preload it. 3 grams daily is effective as any.

Good luck ma man.

Cheers!

Thanks, sounds good
I reckon with the low price of creatine I may dive in and give it another try at 3g. In hindsight my units of measure weren't the most accurate 10 years ago. 5g serving back then = I'll just scoop some of this powder out but not too much so as to use it up too fast.

 

[EricIrons]

Well, all of the animal and human studies that show success with DAA use teh Aspartate form. The ones that show no results used the acid form. That one molecule of Hydrogen can make a big difference. Testosterone and Androstenedione are one H away and are not even comparable.

 

[EricIrons]

Not trying to pimp but I believe that RIse and Swell is the best PCT/Testosterone booster on the market. It's head and shoulders above anything else. I may have to do some logs for guys with SHRUNKEN NUTS. lol

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/product/rise-and-swell-by-mind-and-muscle/

Calcium Lactate
DA-Aspartate
Ginger

All good stuff for test boosting...

 

[justhere4comm]

Not trying to pimp but I believe that RIse and Swell is the best PCT/Testosterone booster on the market. It's head and shoulders above anything else. I may have to do some logs for guys with SHRUNKEN NUTS. lol

http://mindandmuscle.net/articles/product/rise-and-swell-by-mind-and-muscle/

Calcium Lactate
DA-Aspartate
Ginger

All good stuff for test boosting...

30 sample.

 

[Justlooking5]

Can you post the study you're talking about OP? If you look at reviews of DAA on Amazon, most are quite positive (and I don't think they're all or even mostly shill reviews).

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Can you post the study you're talking about OP? If you look at reviews of DAA on Amazon, most are quite positive (and I don't think they're all or even mostly shill reviews).

The Pharmaceutical company that made *the* product that was used in the *original* 2009 Italian study (DADAVITTM) - no longer makes it. That speaks volumes to me.

 

[Justlooking5]

I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions from that. It's available as a bulk product for cheap everywhere, maybe it's become unprofitable for a pharma company to produce a product that is now widely available cheaply (same reason why pharma companies want their drugs not to become generic right away).

Anyway, personal experience in progress. 34 y/o male, bodybuilding since 17, did several cycles of gear (test/dbol/deca, test/eq, oxandrolone, etc.) up until age 25, spent too much time on a test enanthate/turinabol cycle my last cycle, did OTC supplement pct (bad idea) instead of usual clomid/nolva/liquidex and wound up with low test levels in the 390 range tested finally at age 28 (yeah suppressed that long).

I think I've had low test for years and I've tried a lot of different things to try to fix it (considering TRT in the future). Haven't got my levels tested recently, but I've tried TA 100 up to 800mg/day, boron, ZMA, etc. TA helped a bit, but not substantially.

Started DAA for the first time 3 days ago at 3g/day, and I notice a pretty significant difference thus far. I've woken up with wood the last 2 nights, my facial hair growth is noticeably thicker, and I just feel much better overall with less p.m. fatigue, feeling "hotter," temp wise, increased sense of well being, and far less irritability, as well as better muscle fullness and increased libido.

As far as I'm concerned, this stuff does something that feels like increased testosterone to me, and it does it better than Longjack, boron, ZMA, Nettle, and anything else I've tried. I finally feel more normal.

I've read that it tends to work better longer term for people with decreased test than for people with normal test (who get a short boost that returns to baseline), so I'm hopeful that it will be effective for me. Regardless the difference has been enough to reaffirm to me that I likely have chronic low T and if DAA doesn't work long-term I'll have to think about TRT or perhaps HCG/clomid therapy first through an endo.

Anyway, TLDR, I don't think DAA should be dismissed as ineffective. It's definitely doing something significant for me and a lot of reviews on Amazon say the same thing. I know it's trendy to diss the supp now (posts I'm reading from 2010ish era are largely praiseworthy), but I think there is something to it, so far at least.

 

[Toff]

just wanna state, i havent felt this 'alpha' in many months since using DAA

ive had various fluctuations in hormones, using either trandermal AI or dermacrine etc. howeverthe DAA is bringing everything back - im gettign acne at 35 on my back oily skin, big b*lls and libido up. Its giving me all the signs im getting a boost like i did in my teens!

Also, my teenage son was losing his **** the other day, i was able to be calm, on the ball, logical and the problem was resolved calmly.


I know IM going to be using this in future - oh and no flashing lights at night in my eyes as before, dont know what that was, maybe taking too much as the dicks never give you a measuring spoon (i have one now)/