PES Norcodrene---new formula. No Bueno...

ikeNball

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I just ordered 2 bottles of Norcodrene after a 4 week reprieve.

This is my first time taking them with the green/white capsules (as opposed to the yellow/green that I loved).

I don't really feel much of ANYTHING from these. I'm shocked, as this was my go-to Thermo and all-around well being product.

It doesn't even feel like there is 100mg of caffeine. Also, did they remove the Amentoflavone completely?

Please help. Give me some direction.

Side note: I've used Myokem Pyroxamine and OxyMax XT with great results as well. Just want to see what the hell happened with PES???
 

Daycrawler

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I just ordered 2 bottles of Norcodrene after a 4 week reprieve.

This is my first time taking them with the green/white capsules (as opposed to the yellow/green that I loved).

I don't really feel much of ANYTHING from these. I'm shocked, as this was my go-to Thermo and all-around well being product.

It doesn't even feel like there is 100mg of caffeine. Also, did they remove the Amentoflavone completely?

Please help. Give me some direction.

Side note: I've used Myokem Pyroxamine and OxyMax XT with great results as well. Just want to see what the hell happened with PES???
There's a bunch of threads about the changes, and why it was changed.

If it's not up to your standards, I'd just trade the bottles or try taking a dose with Ephedrine.
 
john.patterson

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Please help. Give me some direction.

Side note: I've used Myokem Pyroxamine and OxyMax XT with great results as well. Just want to see what the hell happened with PES???
Sorry to hear about your frustration. Ingredient profile changes can be very frustrating, especially when the product you used in the past worked so well. As for direction... I would use what you know works for you. If you had success with Pyroxamine and Oxymax XT, then stick to those and use what works. Oxymax XT is definitely a great choice if you're looking to 'feel' the energy and improve mental clarity and well being. I really like the benefits of Eria Jarensis in Oxymax, and it sounds like that's exactly what you're looking for.

Reformulations are tricky, but if you aren't a fan of the new profile then stick to what works! At least PES is still cranking out their delicious Select. I'll raise hell if that formula ever changes haha, its perfect
 
HIT4ME

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I was very upset about the Norco change and haven't seen a single thread on here where someone has tried it and said they were pleasantly surprised. The product just isn't geared toward us anymore.

Oxymax is good. I haven't used pyroxamine but probably will at some point. IDL sent me some sample fat burners to try and I hate to come off like a shill or someone who can be bought with a handful of pills, but it is definitely a good appetite suppressant/energy product and I would recommend it as a reasonable replacement for Norco.

ANS Diablo is kind of a mix between the old Alphamine and need Shift and may also be worth a look.
 
ikeNball

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Any PES reps in here want to explain it for me please?
 

shockrock3

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Same reason as Alphamine....the target audience are the regular Joe Shmoe's of the world now i.e. why Alphamine has been reduced to nothing more than an energy drink now....same with Norcodrene.

They, PES, seem to believe the almighty $$ resides with that target audience.
 

Daycrawler

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Same reason as Alphamine....the target audience are the regular Joe Shmoe's of the world now i.e. why Alphamine has been reduced to nothing more than an energy drink now....same with Norcodrene.

They, PES, seem to believe the almighty $$ resides with that target audience.
I have 6 tubs of the new Alphamine, and I enjoy it a lot. I use it with Ephedrine and it's great.

Also OP. Like I said, there's literally a thread called "Change in norcodrene"

Hi friends,

I've been away while (abroad for personal reasons) so I haven't posted lately. The reason the formula was altered was for a multitude of reasons, so let's delve into them together:

1) Abroad appeal. The brand is trying to consolidate formulas. Having formulas specific to different regions is not particularly helpful and the new formula for norcodrene is the best formula for both domestic and international markets where some ingredients are not allowed (think Y)

2) On the subject on Y, we removed Y for international appeal and because of recent lawsuits due to stimulants getting unwanted attention from the FDA/ the guys at harvard doing all those studies. Y is a great ingredient, but lots of people are sensitive, and all it takes is one person to have things go wrong; we do not want to have to deal with potential lawsuits. That is why the formula isn't stimulant heavy as well. This is a trend you'll notice from all the major brands soon.

3) Okay, so now you're thinking that's fine and all, but what about results? The first norcodrene was truly revolutionary and is still a fantastic formula. The new formula, however, is also fantastic. Let's discuss it:

Chromium picolinate has a host of studies in humans showing it results in significant weight loss, including the dose included in norcodrene.

Kaats GR, Blum K, Pullin D, Keith SC, Wood R. 1998. A randomized, double-masked, placebo controlled study of the effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A replication and extension of a previous study. Current Therapeutic Research. 59(6):379- 88.

Kaats, G. R., Blum, K., Fisher, J. A., & Adelman, J. A. (1996). Effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A randomized, double-masked, placebo-controlled study. Current Therapeutic Research - Clinical and Experimental, 57(10), 747-756.

Lemon balm was included for the product for the same reason l-theanine was, it's ability to take the edge off. Lemon balm has research in humans showing it relieves moderate anxiety, which is particularly helpful to individuals dieting (who are prone to being stressed).

Cases J, et al. (2011). Pilot trial of Melissa officinalis L. leaf extract in the treatment of volunteers suffering from mild-to-moderate anxiety disorders and sleep disturbances. Med J Nutrition Metab.


L-theanine is also known for its ability to take the edge off (I'm going to make my next article on l-theanine to explain in further detail). L-theanine not only reduces psychological and physiological stress, but it also enhances performance.

Higashiyama, A., Htay, H., Ozeki, M., et al. (2011). Effects of l-theanine on attention and reaction time response. Journal of Functional Foods. 3:3(171-178).

Kimura, K., Ozeki, M., Juneja, L. R., & Ohira, H. (2007). l-Theanine reduces psychological and physiological stress responses. Biological Psychology, 74(1), 39-45.


Aframomum melegueta has a human study showing it increases your metabolism while decreasing visceral fat in humans.

Sugita, J., et al. (2014). Daily ingestion of grains of paradise (Aframomum melegueta) extract increases whole-body energy expenditure and decreases visceral fat in humans. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol. 60(1):22-7.

Kola nut extract is a unique inclusion because of its stimulant feel. We were thinking of a new stimulant to put into this product that wouldn't be in prolific that would cause a unique feeling. Kola nut has a history of use, provides unique stimulant feel (euphoria), and the FDA has granted Kola Nut GRAS status, recognizing that it is safe for consumption in humans.

Caffeine- as for caffeine, not much I really have to say there about caffeine, we all know what it does.

The important part about this product is that it is a product filled with ingredients based on human studies, that the ingredients work well together to burn fat, provide a unique stimulant feel, while taking the edge off from dieting. Not only that, but every ingredient has been vetted by our team of lawyers, so there will be no issues with the product in the future, etc. I am confident those who enjoyed the old norcodrene will enjoy the new norcodrene if they give it a chance. It also gives you the ability to stack with SHIFT (should you choose to, but by no means do you need to stack the two together). It got rave reviews during out beta tests. I will have a longer product write up later; I wasn't expecting the label to be leaked so early, but that's just the way it is sometimes!

There is an important take home message from my post and I am afraid most people will skip it: it's that the product works for what it's intended use is: improved body composition, while providing mood enhancement. This product is a supplement, not a magical cure. This product honestly works great, and feels great. The product was not reformulated for any other primary reason other than more human studies showing improved body composition while accounting for more mood enhancement. The reason I included reasons #1 and 2 are because they were minute factors (less than 10% of the reason), but factors nonetheless. I have always been honest and upfront with the AM crew about the reason for changes, and not many people are willing to do that on the forums.
 

dynamo

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There's a bunch of threads about the changes, and why it was changed.

If it's not up to your standards, I'd just trade the bottles or try taking a dose with Ephedrine.
I have to chuckle at the bolded. Essentially you've just suggested to the OP to use them as overpriced caffeine pills.

Your suggestion of trying to trade/return/sell the bottles >>>>>> using them as caffeine pills.
 

Daycrawler

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I have to chuckle at the bolded. Essentially you've just suggested to the OP to use them as overpriced caffeine pills.

Your suggestion of trying to trade/return/sell the bottles >>>>>> using them as caffeine pills.
I'm withholding judgement from the product until I personally 1.) try the new norcodrene and 2.) spend the time looking at the write-up and research behind it to see if it makes sense.

In either case, just because you don't "feel" something working doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. You can't feel Forksolin. You can't feel many other ingredients that do actually work.

If the science behind the reformulation holds merit but I don't "feel" anything I'll use it as a caffeine base for EC.

As always, you're entitled to your opinion and if you've already spent the time researching every ingredient and the research available on it to determine it's just "over priced caffeine pills" then more power to you.
 

dynamo

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I'm withholding judgement from the product until I personally 1.) try the new norcodrene and 2.) spend the time looking at the write-up and research behind it to see if it makes sense.

In either case, just because you don't "feel" something working doesn't mean it isn't doing anything. You can't feel Forksolin. You can't feel many other ingredients that do actually work.

If the science behind the reformulation holds merit but I don't "feel" anything I'll use it as a caffeine base for EC.

As always, you're entitled to your opinion and if you've already spent the time researching every ingredient and the research available on it to determine it's just "over priced caffeine pills" then more power to you.
It's grains of paradise extract, caffeine, theanine, lemon balm extract, and chromium. It's essentially a slight mood enhance caffeine pill. Grains of paradise extract btw has been shown to be effective but it's ultimately increasing metabolism by only ~100 calories per day.

I'm indifferent about the product by the way and was not claiming it's a glorified caffeine pill. I just pointed out the glorified caffeine pill point because that's essentially what you framed it to be when suggesting that one could just use it as the caffeine base to their EC stack.
 

Daycrawler

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It's grains of paradise extract, caffeine, theanine, lemon balm extract, and chromium. It's essentially a slight mood enhance caffeine pill. Grains of paradise extract btw has been shown to be effective but it's ultimately increasing metabolism by only ~100 calories per day.

I'm indifferent about the product by the way and was not claiming it's a glorified caffeine pill. I just pointed out the glorified caffeine pill point because that's essentially what you framed it to be when suggesting that one could just use it as the caffeine base to their EC stack.
Fair enough. My point was more-so if the point is to "feel" something the OP would be better off with caffeine pills and ephedrine
 
ikeNball

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I'm actually taking the thermo TO FEEL something; I honestly don't need the fat-burning effects, as much as I actually like the mood-boosting benefits of the Amento that was in the old formula.

When I put it like this, do you have any recommendations? (I also don't mind a little caffeine).

Side note: Is it okay to dose OxyMax XT at 3 caps/day?
 

hamdysayed

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Any PES reps in here want to explain it for me please?
lol most likely they won't be honest and tell their new formulas is whatever .
is mr.cooper69 with pes anymore ?
 
cubsfan815

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I'm actually taking the thermo TO FEEL something; I honestly don't need the fat-burning effects, as much as I actually like the mood-boosting benefits of the Amento that was in the old formula.

When I put it like this, do you have any recommendations? (I also don't mind a little caffeine).

Side note: Is it okay to dose OxyMax XT at 3 caps/day?
We recommend not to exceed 3 caps of OxyMax XT per day. I know some users do 2 AM, then 1 cap 6-8 hours later.

1 cap 2x daily is still plenty strong for most.
 
booneman77

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is mr.cooper69 with pes anymore ?
no, he moved on to pursue his career and studies. mutual parting of ways from what I heard but not formulating for them at all anymore.
 

xhrr

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I have 6 tubs of the new Alphamine, and I enjoy it a lot. I use it with Ephedrine and it's great.

Also OP. Like I said, there's literally a thread called "Change in norcodrene"
How do you know you enjoy it when you take it with E? A caffeine pill alone with E is great.
 

hamdysayed

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no, he moved on to pursue his career and studies. mutual parting of ways from what I heard but not formulating for them at all anymore.
good for him smart move.
well hopefully pes get it together and make good supps like they used to.
 

squirtguns89

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I'm actually taking the thermo TO FEEL something; I honestly don't need the fat-burning effects, as much as I actually like the mood-boosting benefits of the Amento that was in the old formula.

When I put it like this, do you have any recommendations? (I also don't mind a little caffeine).

Side note: Is it okay to dose OxyMax XT at 3 caps/day?
your opinion on what you subjectively feel is something youre entitled to, and im not actually correcting you, but since i havent seen this pointed out.... the new norco actually seems more designed to do exactly what youre saying you prefer out of your thermos.

compare the data on l-theanine and lemon balm vs amento (or any other ingredients exclusively in old norco) for feel good/mood support.

im not one to defend pes at every chance, as i try to be objective. but this formula is quite seemingly designed to be one of the better feel good "burners" on the market, l-theanine alone is a great addition for such.
 

hamdysayed

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Daycrawler literally posted a response from me above...
Well with all due respect all the answers yall provide won't make alphamine a non energy drink or Norco a legit fat loss product .
 

ma70

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Well with all due respect all the answers yall provide won't make alphamine a non energy drink or Norco a legit fat loss product .
Most fat burners don't really burn fat though....
 

dynamo

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Other than how the old Norcodrene made you feel, do you consider it an effective fat burner?
So are you suggesting it was an ineffective fat burner to begin with? If that is the case...
 

ma70

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So are you suggesting it was an ineffective fat burner to begin with? If that is the case...
For appetite suppression and steady energy, I loved it. But "burning fat", probably nothing special.
 

dynamo

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For appetite suppression and steady energy, I loved it. But "burning fat", probably nothing special.
If so then this new formula would be a big step back then since they removed the alpha y and higenamine.
 

hamdysayed

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Other than how the old Norcodrene made you feel, do you consider it an effective fat burner?
Well my whole concept about supps that it aids in whatever ur goal is , some aid some don't.
diet and workout is what makes things happen .
 
HIT4ME

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Things just got real in this thread! Haha.

I honestly think Norco was a moderate appetite suppressant, moderate energy, moderately improved fat burning. I honestly felt a rise in body temp while using it. It used to come in waves and then dissipate. Was it amazing at any of these things? No, but being moderately good at those three things is a good mix and few products could match it.

Starting to think I am just not a real happy guy, since I never notice much in the way of mood benefits, haha.
 

ma70

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If so then this new formula would be a big step back then since they removed the alpha y and higenamine.
It didn't have Alpha-Y in the original formula.

But anyways, I'm not exactly defending the new formula either. But the new formula may or may not make people feel better during dieting.
 

dynamo

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It didn't have Alpha-Y in the original formula.

But anyways, I'm not exactly defending the new formula either. But the new formula may or may not make people feel better during dieting.
It did. SA2-A is what they call their alpha y. Or some sort of y variant that isn't HCL.
 

ma70

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It did. SA2-A is what they call their alpha y. Or some sort of y variant that isn't HCL.
It was their "special extract" of yohimbine, but not Alpha-Y. But my point was that in the grand scheme of things, these things mostly support mood/appetite suppression, not actual fat burning.
 

dynamo

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It was their "special extract" of yohimbine, but not Alpha-Y. But my point was that in the grand scheme of things, these things mostly support mood/appetite suppression, not actual fat burning.
It's their "prop" extract which could really be anything and unless they give us a breakdown of what exactly it comprises of, my money is on it being alpha y under a TM name.
 
HIT4ME

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It was their "special extract" of yohimbine, but not Alpha-Y. But my point was that in the grand scheme of things, these things mostly support mood/appetite suppression, not actual fat burning.
It is really too bad, because in the early 2000s there were definitely products on the market that burned fat and worked great. Now, we just kind of accept that the best we can do is be happy about it not working because it helps our mood.
 

ma70

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It is really too bad, because in the early 2000s there were definitely products on the market that burned fat and worked great. Now, we just kind of accept that the best we can do is be happy about it not working because it helps our mood.
I was never really around the supplement game in those days. I wonder what I missed out on.
 
HIT4ME

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Lipokinetix, Tiratricol - those come to mind. Game changers. Lipokinetix used Sodium Usniate which turned out to be liver toxic for some people, so it hasn't been used although I think it popped up briefly on a product 5-6 years ago. Tiratricol was being studied by a pharma company and was also pulled.

I could lose 20 pounds in a month no problem on lipokinetix, with the only diet being followed was the reduced appetite from the Norephedrine.
 

Daycrawler

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How do you know you enjoy it when you take it with E? A caffeine pill alone with E is great.
It's literally caffeine, LCLT and others.

I use caffeine pills also but Alphamine is >>> in terms of taste. I snagged tubs for $24/piece so $.38/serving for EC is great stuff
 
Jiigzz

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It is really too bad, because in the early 2000s there were definitely products on the market that burned fat and worked great. Now, we just kind of accept that the best we can do is be happy about it not working because it helps our mood.
Many products were spiked in those days as well or were simply unsafe.
 
HIT4ME

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Many products were spiked in those days as well.
Lol. Maybe. But in this case, the effective ingredients were right on the label. Unless maybe instead if diiodothyronine they snuck T3 in, and instead of Usniate they put in DNP. It was effective and the DNP can be ruled out because that wouldn't have caused liver damage.
 
ikeNball

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Things just got real in this thread! Haha.

I honestly think Norco was a moderate appetite suppressant, moderate energy, moderately improved fat burning. I honestly felt a rise in body temp while using it. It used to come in waves and then dissipate. Was it amazing at any of these things? No, but being moderately good at those three things is a good mix and few products could match it.

Starting to think I am just not a real happy guy, since I never notice much in the way of mood benefits, haha.
I'm just a big proponent of "if it ain't broken, why try to fix it?" With this simplistic attitude, you can see why I am disenchanted by PES. It makes sense to me now! I'm going to work the new one back into my regimen (maybe even WITH a pre-workout, as the stimulant "hit" is just not as strong to me).
 
HIT4ME

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I'm just a big proponent of "if it ain't broken, why try to fix it?" With this simplistic attitude, you can see why I am disenchanted by PES. It makes sense to me now! I'm going to work the new one back into my regimen (maybe even WITH a pre-workout, as the stimulant "hit" is just not as strong to me).
Well, the reality is, it may not have been broken from your perspective but it was broken from the company's perspective. This new formula is safer in the main stream, legal in more countries, reduces sku's, etc. - they lose a good following with people like us, but it may be a hit that is worth taking from a business perspective just because the volume/reduced costs increase profits more than they cause lost revenues from us. I mean, in all reality I've only ever used less than a half dozen bottles of Nocrodrene, so they aren't hurting form my loss I am sure.
 

dynamo

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I'm just a big proponent of "if it ain't broken, why try to fix it?" With this simplistic attitude, you can see why I am disenchanted by PES. It makes sense to me now! I'm going to work the new one back into my regimen (maybe even WITH a pre-workout, as the stimulant "hit" is just not as strong to me).
They kind of "broke" the new Norcodrene though. It's literally really just a caffeine + l-theanine product.

Let's look at the additional ingredients:

Chromium - does help with blood glucose management to some degree but it's just chromium, if you're using a good multi, you're getting a good dose of and usually it will be picolinate anyway if it's a good multi (Life Extension's multi uses Crominex which is highly stable chromium complexed with Capros and PrimaVie)

Grains of Paradise extract - yes it has effects on BAT but the data shows that you're only increasing metabolism by ~100 calories per day, that's what? 2 oreos?

Kola nut extract - essentially a source for caffeine

Lemon balm extract - has some calming effects but, yeah

imho, even though both Alphamine and Norcodrene got downgraded in their reformulations, one would probably get a bit more out of Alphamine (mainly because they probably didn't screw up the flavoring after reformulation so it probably still tastes real good and it has considerably more caffeine as people tend to double and triple scoop the stuff).
 
TommyTuffGuy

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It is essentially a branding cash grab. It's just bizarre out of all the companies you'd expect to do this with their product line, PES was created for hardcore formulation type buyers and not the general population. They touted this on all their marketing and through all their reps.

Were they recently sold by chance?
 

hamdysayed

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It is essentially a branding cash grab. It's just bizarre out of all the companies you'd expect to do this with their product line, PES was created for hardcore formulation type buyers and not the general population. They touted this on all their marketing and through all their reps.

Were they recently sold by chance?
they just became bigger and share holders are more hungry probably
 
Driven2lift

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Still here if anyone has any direct questions, feel free to tag or PM me

But I won't interrupt your discussion, best we see all of the opinions AM has to offer



And no we were not sold, Josh is not giving up his baby
 
Driven2lift

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yeah same concept , somebody wanna be mainstream and want more profit .
Or you know,
growing the business he built himself into something larger and more well known. While not shooting himself in the foot by dancing around ingredients that may see compliance issues. (As other companies are paying for one by one, and the FDA inquisition ever broadens)

PEScience is growing and getting brand recognition.

Isn't that an important goal of any company?
 
HIT4ME

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I will say that PES has avoided any ingredient controversy, which is good and bad. It gives the impression of a "clean and reliable" company from a safety standpoint, but certainly takes away from the hardcore angle - which fits with the changes that have occurred - broad audience looking for a certain product with safety being important vs. a narrower audience looking for dramatic results and willing to take on more risk.
 
Driven2lift

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Supplement users definitely fall in a few categories, and I agree we've shifted away from some more "hardcore" ingredients

There are always options for this crowd still, plenty of them are right here on AM and I'll be using them as well

Even as an avid (and at times hardcore) supplement user myself, I know I would still be a regular buyer of things like Ergonine and Select

I may add some SNS yohimbe to my cart too though
 
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