Full disclosure vs Prop Blend

[double s]

In your professional opinions, do you think it will ever be mandated that companies have fill disclosure labels??

Speak on this...

 

[TreatnHerRigt]

Hopefully soon. Some companies are ridiculous....

Especially after the Jim Stoppani and NutriBio situation.

 

[BlackTiger22]

this thread will explode

 

[double s]

i always hear.."Well I don't want other companies to copy my formula".....if you truly are the first to market then there should be no concern. Soo much smoke and mirrors with some of the prop blends, not all but some of them.

 

[AntM1564]

i always hear.."Well I don't want other companies to copy my formula".....if you truly are the first to market then there should be no concern. Soo much smoke and mirrors with some of the prop blends, not all but some of them.

I would hope one day all products have to be fully disclosed. I would like to know what I am putting in my body and how much of it. This also helps consumers identify if they need to supplement with extra of particular ingredients. If a pre workout contains LCLT for example, but not a full dose, I could buy bulk LCLT and add.

I agree with your point on innovation as well. If a company is the first, then I think most people would tend to stick with that brand. Maybe that is me just being naive, but I know I would personally stick with said brand. I'm sick of seeing prop blends, especially prop blends of almost five grams and fifteen ingredients.

 

[ma70]

If it's a prop blend, I ignore the product. Simple as that. It's already hard enough these days figuring out what is useful, but in a prop blend? Not really into gambling my money away these days.

 

[Young Gotti]

I don't necessarily mind....I get mad when theirs like 15 ingredients in the prop blend, then it raises alerts to me

this doesn't bother me

this, I won't buy

 

[B5150]

In your professional opinions

Speak on this...

what qualifies one's opinion as professional and whose opinion thus far is that of a professional's?

 

[Chuck Diesel]

In your professional opinions, do you think it will ever be mandated that companies have fill disclosure labels??

Speak on this...

Canada mandates this for a products to be health Canada approved...with that said, you can post 10 full disclosure labels and I can probably tell you how 8 of them aren't even FDA compliant. I treat supplements like recipes. There is no full disclosure for Miracle Whip or any popular pizza place here in Chicago...that would be dumb. But I do see the idea behind it for a consumer, its just I don't think consumers even realize ~70% of labels aren't even FDA compliant.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I don't necessarily mind....I get mad when theirs like 15 ingredients in the prop blend, then it raises alerts to me

this doesn't bother me

this, I won't buy

That 2nd one is a test booster thats been on the market over 11 years from a company with no FDA pulled products in 14 yrs of business (GET DIESEL), so the prop
blend has nothing to do with the efficacy. Diesel Test has more users that have posted hormone test results on AM than any other test booster..

So why wouldn't you buy DIESEL TEST? because you do not know how much of what ingredient is in the product which would lead you to believe it isn't effective?

 

[kisaj]

I think it's because it looks like someone took every product under the sun and just through it in the mix and it looks like they don't know what they are doing. At least that's how I read it.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Canada mandates this for a products to be health Canada approved...with that said, you can post 10 full disclosure labels and I can probably tell you how 8 of them aren't even FDA compliant. I treat supplements like recipes. There is no full disclosure for Miracle Whip or any popular pizza place here in Chicago...that would be dumb. But I do see the idea behind it for a consumer, its just I don't think consumers even realize ~70% of labels aren't even FDA compliant.

The ingredients in Miracle Whip aren't intended to or supposed to have clinically/statistically significant effects as their primary reasons for inclusion. I would assume every active ingredient in a supplement should provide some effect/benefit to the user; the same can most certainly not be said for most food products, where ingredients are intended to either improve flavor, texture, appearance, etc, NOT for the effects they are supposed to have once ingested. I see the point you're trying to make, but it's somewhat apples to oranges IMO.

 

[Young Gotti]

That 2nd one is a test booster thats been on the market over 11 years from a company with no FDA pulled products in 14 yrs of business (GET DIESEL), so the prop
blend has nothing to do with the efficacy. Diesel Test has more users that have posted hormone test results on AM than any other test booster..

So why wouldn't you buy DIESEL TEST? because you do not know how much of what ingredient is in the product which would lead you to believe it isn't effective?[/QUOTE]

yep, when I see a long list of ingredients like that, it leads me to believe stuff is underdosed or some ingredients are not needed in the formula so I spend my money on products I trust more

 

[Chuck Diesel]

That 2nd one is a test booster thats been on the market over 11 years from a company with no FDA pulled products in 14 yrs of business (GET DIESEL), so the prop
blend has nothing to do with the efficacy. Diesel Test has more users that have posted hormone test results on AM than any other test booster..

So why wouldn't you buy DIESEL TEST? because you do not know how much of what ingredient is in the product which would lead you to believe it isn't effective?[/QUOTE]

yep, when I see a long list of ingredients like that, it leads me to believe stuff is underdosed or some ingredients are not needed in the formula so I spend my money on products I trust more

Oh ok...that prop blend is 2,000mg.....but ok. Its more of a visual decision on what products to use. My bcaas have a prop blend, the Health Canada approved version doesn't...same exact BCAAs. What you said to me is like looking at a cheese burger and saying "how much cheese is in here, in grams?? If you don't disclose it that would lead me to believe this cheese burger won't taste good." If you look around, every durable good you consume has a proprietary blend. Bread, juices, soda, food, etc etc. Most manufacturing process is proprietary. No manufacture is gonna give you full disclosure of how a product is manufactured, they don't even give their customers as contract manufactures full disclosure on how the product is made. The reason why is, its proprietary. How will you ever develop a superior product writing the formula right on the side of the bottle?? in this industry, all new products, well most, are some type of carbon copy of some other product.

 

[Woody]

Oh ok...that prob blend is 2,000mg.....but ok. Its more of a visual decision on what products to use. My bcaas have a prop blend, the Health Canada approved version doesn't...same exact BCAAs. What you said to me is like looking at a cheese burger and saying "how much cheese is in here, in grams?? If you don't disclose it that would lead me to believe this cheese burger won't taste good."

Supplements have doses at which they are effective and doses at which they are not. Comparing it to a burger is ludicrous and completely irrelevant. Two slices of cheese does not scientifically make the burger more of less effective. The doses of your ingredients do. That's ~26 ingredients in a 1.95g prop blend which averages out to 75 mg per ingredient. Also, you completely ignored Spence down here ....

The ingredients in Miracle Whip aren't intended to or supposed to have clinically/statistically significant effects as their primary reasons for inclusion. I would assume every active ingredient in a supplement should provide some effect/benefit to the user; the same can most certainly not be said for most food products, where ingredients are intended to either improve flavor, texture, appearance, etc, NOT for the effects they are supposed to have once ingested. I see the point you're trying to make, but it's somewhat apples to oranges IMO.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Supplements have doses at which they are effective and doses at which they are not. Comparing it to a burger is ludicrous and completely irrelevant. Two slices of cheese does not scientifically make the burger more of less effective. The doses of your ingredients do. That's ~26 ingredients in a 2g prop blend. Also, you completely ignored Spence down here ....

To me its the same. A supplement is a end result of a formulation. Its not a bunch of "clinical doses" stacked together. Like I said, that other label panel posted isn't even fully FDA compliant, so I worry about things like that as a consumer. Its not apples to oranges because what you guys do not understand or think about is a product is an end result of manufacturing and formulation. Take a preworkout. "Clinical dose blabla" mixed with "clinical dose" blabla doesn't make a preworkout automatically effective. There is some garbage a$$ "clinically dosed" preworkouts.

 

[ma70]

To me its the same. A supplement is a end result of a formulation. Its not a bunch of "clinical doses" stacked together. Like I said, that other label panel posted isn't even fully FDA compliant, so I worry about things like that as a consumer. Its not apples to oranges because what you guys do not understand or think about is a product is an end result of manufacturing and formulation. Take a preworkout. "Clinical dose blabla" mixed with "clinical dose" blabla doesn't make a preworkout automatically effective. There is some garbage a$$ "clinically dosed" preworkouts.

I think most people would prefer to get results with the least amount of ingredients possible. That's just how I roll, for example.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Supplements have doses at which they are effective and doses at which they are not. Comparing it to a burger is ludicrous and completely irrelevant. Two slices of cheese does not scientifically make the burger more of less effective. The doses of your ingredients do. Also, you completely ignored Spence down here ....

Also worth noting, I can take small amounts of several ingredients (that would be insufficient alone) and put them together to make a dish/meal/food product that is "good," but the same cannot be said of supplements. I can give you a few bites of several types of sushi on a great platter and it works, but the same can't be said with, sat, amino acids or herbal extracts. You can't just take sub-effective doses of dozens of ingredients and put them into a supplement and assume they'll come together to make an effective product.

If you need 20 prices of salmon sushi to make a meal, you can still make a good meal with 10 salmon and 10 tuna. You can't do the same and "split" a dose with a lot of supplements. I can't say "I have 5g space to fill in supplement x, and I have creatine, but instead of 5g creatine, let's cut it to 2g, add 2g beta alanine and 1g glutamine" and assume you'll get the benefits from ANY of the ingredients. They're intended to have effects on the body once ingested. In regards to foods, to put it simply, once you swallow it, that's pretty much all the people who made it care about, that it tasted good.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

a prob blend doesn't mean "low and ineffectively dosed, which means not going to work"

I don't make a product that's not top 3 in results in its respected category, all with prob blends. So that's my stand.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I think most people would prefer to get results with the least amount of ingredients possible. That's just how I roll, for example.

That makes no sense. Most people would prefer to get an excellent bang for their buck with whatever it takes. Also most people on here stack like 40 products at a time, so how does that even make sense?? How often do you see "full disclosure" 4 ingredient product being stacked with 4 other products to do one thing on here?? All the time.

I gotta go bench and train tri's, gonna use some prob blend product preworout. see y'all.

 

[ma70]

That makes no sense. Most people would prefer to get an excellent bang for their buck with whatever it takes. Also most people on here stack like 40 products at a time, so how does that even make sense??

Well, I mostly like it because I like finding out which specific ingredients are beneficial to me, then stack them later. I can't speak for the others.

Example: I'm using LJ100 solo right now because I want to see if LJ100 benefits me. Then later, maybe I'll stack LJ100 with something else, but if LJ100 does enough for me, then I'm good to go.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

That makes no sense. Most people would prefer to get an excellent bang for their buck with whatever it takes. Also most people on here stack like 40 products at a time, so how does that even make sense??

I'm not referring to your products at all (I'm just talking hypothetical and as general rules), when people see 20+ ingredients, they assume that there's going to be some fluff in the formula, which is usually true.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I'm not referring to your products at all (I'm just talking hypothetical and as general rules), when people see 20+ ingredients, they assume that there's going to be some fluff in the formula, which is usually true.

Yes, I get the philosophy. I see the truth in it. I also see some heavy under dosed full disclosure products and people are like "hell yeah no prob blend" and I'm thinking "that formula is garbage."

 

[Young Gotti]

Oh ok...that prop blend is 2,000mg.....but ok. Its more of a visual decision on what products to use. My bcaas have a prop blend, the Health Canada approved version doesn't...same exact BCAAs. What you said to me is like looking at a cheese burger and saying "how much cheese is in here, in grams?? If you don't disclose it that would lead me to believe this cheese burger won't taste good." If you look around, every durable good you consume has a proprietary blend. Bread, juices, soda, food, etc etc. Most manufacturing process is proprietary. No manufacture is gonna give you full disclosure of how a product is manufactured, they don't even give their customers as contract manufactures full disclosure on how the product is made. The reason why is, its proprietary. How will you ever develop a superior product writing the formula right on the side of the bottle?? in this industry, all new products, well most, are some type of carbon copy of some other product.

none of that applies in this situation but ok

 

[Adizzle1]

I think most people would prefer to get results with the least amount of ingredients possible. That's just how I roll, for example.

That makes no sense. Most people would prefer to get an excellent bang for their buck with whatever it takes. Also most people on here stack like 40 products at a time, so how does that even make sense?? How often do you see "full disclosure" 4 ingredient product being stacked with 4 other products to do one thing on here?? All the time.

I gotta go bench and train tri's, gonna use some prob blend product preworout. see y'all.

His point is if you can get great results with 3 well dosed ingredients, is adding in another 20 ingredients that dont change the results helpful? Most would rather get the best results possible with just what is necessary to get those results, not have added ingredients to make it seem as your getting a better 'bang for your buck'.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes, I get the philosophy. I see the truth in it. I also see some heavy under dosed full disclosure products and people are like "hell yeah no prob blend" and I'm thinking "that formula is garbage."

Without a doubt. There are plenty of quality prop blend formulas, and plenty of garbage fully disclosed formulas. The average consumer (educated forum members are a very small minority) wouldn't know the effective dose of ALCAR or rhodiola if they saw it anyway. Lots of times you can figure out, for the most part, the doses (at least relatively) in s prop blend, but that goes out the window with 20+ ingredients. A full disclosure blend also makes stacking and/or fixing weak points in s formula easier. If you know you're getting 4g citrulline or 5g creatine, you don't have to add more, and if you know you have 3g beta alanine, you probably don't want to add more (at least not at the same time). Also, if you know you only have 2g creatine or citrulline, you can add more. This goes out the window with prop blends at times.

If nothing else, full disclosure helps you be certain a product will do something. I know there's more to formulation than adding clinical doses, but we do know if you take 5g creatine monohydrate and 2.5g betaine, it should do something for you. Put them with 18 other ingredients in a prop blend, how do we know?

 

[Lynks8]

Supplements have doses at which they are effective and doses at which they are not. Comparing it to a burger is ludicrous and completely irrelevant. Two slices of cheese does not scientifically make the burger more of less effective. The doses of your ingredients do. That's ~26 ingredients in a 1.95g prop blend which averages out to 75 mg per ingredient. Also, you completely ignored Spence down here ....

Yep. The chemistry behind supplement efficacy is completely different to the chemistry of making something taste good.

A better example would be a workout. Let's say you're trying to make your biceps grow. There's a certain amount of weight and/or reps an individual must perform to elicit the desired reaction. One can't simply mix 3 bicep curls, 4 bench presses, and 3 back extensions to get the same effect as 10 bicep curls.

This isn't to say a prop blend product can't be effective, of course, but many prefer to know if the threshold dosage has been met for a certain ingredient, or else it may be doing nothing.

As someone who likes to read up on what he's putting in his body, I vastly prefer non-prop blends. Imagine if regulated medicines could be prop-blended, lol. It'd be pretty scary.

 

[double s]

That 2nd one is a test booster thats been on the market over 11 years from a company with no FDA pulled products in 14 yrs of business (GET DIESEL), so the prop
blend has nothing to do with the efficacy. Diesel Test has more users that have posted hormone test results on AM than any other test booster..

So why wouldn't you buy DIESEL TEST? because you do not know how much of what ingredient is in the product which would lead you to believe it isn't effective?

Appreciate your contribution to this thread. Being an owner, why not offer full disclosure labels? Yes you have excellent products from what I have seen but why not add additional credibility by offering full disclosure labels?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Appreciate your contribution to this thread. Being an owner, why not offer full disclosure labels? Yes you have excellent products from what I have seen but why not add additional credibility by offering full disclosure labels?

Again, not speaking for him or regarding his products, but to the average consumer, more is often better. For example, if I took 3 effective ingredients at effective doses and put them in Product A, and took those same ingredients and put them in Product B, and added a dusting of 7 other ingredients, the average uneducated consumer will likely pick B, thinking they're "getting more." This is even more of an issue when the average consumer doesn't even know effective doses; sometimes people just recognize ingredient names and think that means they're going to get the full benefits regardless of dose; "oh, this product has creatine, beta alanine, and citrulline, great!" but there's only 4g total between the 3 for example.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Appreciate your contribution to this thread. Being an owner, why not offer full disclosure labels? Yes you have excellent products from what I have seen but why not add additional credibility by offering full disclosure labels?

Because it doesnt improve the results. Only thing it does is teach the competition how to deliver the exact same results as your products. I believe in product formulation and synergy. Soon as you make a good poduct worth a damn full disclosure its gonna get bootlegged. The show me the full list AM community is less than 2% of the buying public anyway...and 0% or .000001% of that 2% can produce an FDA compliant label or tell when one isnt compliant. Reg ppl buy products based on results.

 

[Young Gotti]

314

 

[Woody]

You keep using FDA compliant label as if your label is the only FDA compliant and as if the label compliance is any indication of the products efficiency.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Reg ppl buy products based on results.

I hate to say it, but most people buy based on fancy labels, good advertising, price, sales, and good taste (when applicable). Also, Product A may "work" for someone (often debatable if it's the product itself or placebo effect), so they don't feel a need to try another product, even if it is objectively better.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Because it doesnt improve the results. Only thing it does is teach the competition how to deliver the exact same results as your products. I believe in product formulation and synergy. Soon as you make a good poduct worth a damn full disclosure its gonna get bootlegged. The show me the full list AM community is less than 2% of the buying public anyway...and 0% or .000001% of that 2% can produce an FDA compliant label or tell when one isnt compliant. Reg ppl buy products based on results.

There are plenty of prop blend supplements that get copied/cloned/knocked off too...

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I hate to say it, but most people buy based on fancy labels, good advertising, price, sales, and good taste (when applicable). Also, Product A may "work" for someone (often debatable if it's the product itself or placebo effect), so they don't feel a need to try another product, even if it is objectively better.

Yes. Mostly that. But i was meaning in terms of full disclosure versus results.

 

[Chuck Diesel]

There are plenty of prop blend supplements that get copied/cloned/knocked off too...

I didnt say their wasnt. I said a great product w full disclosure is guaranteed to get knocked off

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Think about it. GET DIESEL is the only brand on AM that was around in 2002 AND the only brand w none of the AM stores selling the line but the line is still reguarded highly in the powerlifting communty and hardcore training individual market. All with prop blends. All I am saying is the majority of you guys going "full disclose or die trying" is doing it for the wrong reasons. But hey its your money. Im with anyone buying any product for any reason they chose personally. But when someone say "id buy this product versus this get diesel product bc the get diesel blend" and the other label isnt even FDA compliant....i look at post like that, and think some ppl are lost.

 

[Woody]

Again, you seem to confuse the issue. Whether a label is fancy, pretty, and FDA compliant has zero impact on its effectiveness. Conversely, if a product is underdosed in a mammoth proprietary blend, that directly impacts its effectiveness.

 

[Lynks8]

Think about it. GET DIESEL is the only brand on AM that was around in 2002 AND the only brand w none of the AM stores selling the line but the line is still reguarded highly in the powerlifting communty and hardcore training individual market. All with prob blends. All I am saying is the majority of you guys going "full disclose or die trying" is doing it for the wrong reasons. But hey its your money. Im with anyone buying any product for any reason they chose personally. But when someone say "id buy this product versus this get diesel product bc the get diesel blend" and the other label isnt even FDA compliant....i look at post like that and think some ppl are lost.

What is the "hardcore training individual market"?

Popularity is not causally related to quality, especially in the supplement world.

The only point being made here is that most people, once informed even a little bit, would prefer to know what and how much of something they're putting in their body.

The only defense for prop blends is that you're afraid you'll be copied. I can think of a dozen popular non-prop blends that have been out for some time and haven't been directly copied. But...it's your perogative and I wouldn't begrudge you that choice. I do take issue with you saying we're in favor of non-prop blends "for the wrong reasons". What?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Think about it. GET DIESEL is the only brand on AM that was around in 2002 AND the only brand w none of the AM stores selling the line but the line is still reguarded highly in the powerlifting communty and hardcore training individual market. All with prob blends. All I am saying is the majority of you guys going "full disclose or die trying" is doing it for the wrong reasons. But hey its your money. Im with anyone buying any product for any reason they chose personally. But when someone say "id buy this product versus this get diesel product bc the get diesel blend" and the other label isnt even FDA compliant....i look at post like that, and think some ppl are lost.

I see what you're saying. For me personally, as a consumer first and foremost, all things equal, I'd want full disclosure. As a consumer, it's only beneficial, no? The only time I really buy prop blends is when they offer something that you can't get in a disclosed label (or at least a partially disclosed label).

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Like any of you full disclose consumers even concered if a brands products are manufactured in a NSF or Informed Choice approved facility or even know or care what those organizations do? My products are. For me as a consumer thats more important than "list all the ingredients in a format thats not FDA compliant because i dnt know what complaint is" product.

 

[double s]

Chuck Diesel, there are more and more people that are now only using full disclosure products, why not cater to them as well, more sales, more money?

 

[Lynks8]

Like any of you full disclose consumers even concered if a brands products are manufactured in a NSF or Informed Choice approved facility or even know or care what those organizations do? My products are. For me as a consumer thats more important than "list all the ingredients in a format thats not FDA compliant because i dnt know what complaint is" product.

Deflection. That's not what this thread is about. We're just talking about prop vs non-prop in a vacuum.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

What is the "hardcore training individual market"?

Popularity is not casually related to quality, especially in the supplement world.

The only point being made here is that most people, once informed even a little bit, would prefer to know what and how much of something they're putting in their body.

The only defense for prop blends is that you're afraid you'll be copied. I can think of a dozen popular non-prop blends that have been out for some time and haven't been directly copied. But...it's your perogative and I wouldn't begrudge you that choice. I do take issue with you saying we're in favor of non-prop blends "for the wrong reasons". What?

Yep, and tons of prop blends get knocked off. Sometimes it's even easier and/or more profitable to clone/copy a prop blend, as you can mimic the order and ingredients, but fluff the top and other parts of the formula with the cheaper ingredients in the blend as long as you keep the order the same.

 

[AntM1564]

Chuck Diesel, there are more and more people that are now only using full disclosure products, why not cater to them as well, more sales, more money?

Listing the amount of all those ingredients would take up more space on the label rather than listing 20+ ingredients in one panel. Thus, the bottles would need to be bigger, which means more plastic, which means a higher cost. The product would be more expensive due to bigger bottles.

I'm joking, just trying to bring some fun to this. It blew up in the matter of an hour!

 

[Chuck Diesel]

I see what you're saying. For me personally, as a consumer first and foremost, all things equal, I'd want full disclosure. As a consumer, it's only beneficial, no? The only time I really buy prop blends is when they offer something that you can't get in a disclosed label (or at least a partially disclosed label).

Yes but what im saying as a consumer do you care if they are made in an NSF facility or if the label is compliant. I keep saying complaint because when I see a non-compliant label personally i think well who cares whats listed. Most consumers don't know whats complaint. So what you think is full disclosure can be an "illusion."

 

[Chuck Diesel]

Im done w this. Im working out and finishing my friday. That label compared to Diesel Test isnt FDA complaint. That is all.

What product is that and who makes it??

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Im done w this. Im working out and finishing my friday. That label compared to Diesel Test isnt FDA complaint. That is all.

So what if it was compared to another FDA compliant label that was fully disclosed. Where is your arguement now?

Also, one more example as to why food/cooking isn't the same as supplements:

You can have a good surf and turf with half a serving of meat and half a serving of seafood as opposed to just one full serving of each, but the same can't be said of supplements. You can't necessarily take 1/2 the dose of 2 ingredients, throw them together, and assume it'll be as effective as the dull dose of 1 ingredient.

 

[Woody]

Im done w this. Im working out and finishing my friday. That label compared to Diesel Test isnt FDA complaint. That is all.

What product is that and who makes it??

And yet....

...again, you seem to confuse the issue. Whether a label is fancy, pretty, and FDA compliant has zero impact on its effectiveness. Conversely, if a product is underdosed in a mammoth proprietary blend, that directly impacts its effectiveness.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

This thread is fun.