HMB-CA vs HMB-FA

[georgetown]

Old school vs new which is superior?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Regular Ca-HMB Boosts Strength and Performance in Elite Athletes

HMB for Every, Not Just Strength Athletes? Lower Body Fat, Improved VO2, Muscle, Testosterone in 2x12 Week Study

HMB For Endurance Athletes: 3g Regular HMB Make Elite Rowers Run Out of Breath 10% Later + Facilitate Fat Loss

Suppversity "Bottom Line":

Ca-HMB or free acid? There is no doubt that this is another study to put a question mark behind the necessity of buying the expensive free acid form of HMB. More than 90% of the previous (mostly promising) HMB studies have been conducted with calcium HMB consumed either once or, as in this case, thrice a day. In contrast to the functionality of Ca-HMB, however, the increased speed of absorption scientists have observed for the free acid form of HMB has yet to be proven to have practical relevance.

For me, HMB-Ca is affordable enough to take every day for the rest of my life (I do!) - so no brainer here.

 

[Robert5891]

Save yourself a LOT of money and go with HMB-Ca. No need to pay for the over priced FA version.

 

[haiz69]

If the price was the same I'd most likely opt for Free-Acid, but given the significant price difference, I go with CA-HMB every time. Having used both, I didn't notice a significant difference between the two, especially to justify the price-tag of the free acid form.

 

[banjobounce]

Cost-wise, I would say Calcium salt. I have tried both in the past and have opted to go with a kilo of the calcium salt atm.

 

[georgetown]

Awesome looks like CA it is

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Flicking through the various studies, and meta analysis, a pattern seems to emerge (at least to my eyes).

With creatine, say, you can pretty much start taking it alongside whatever resistance training protocol you are currently doing, and then wait for the benefits/results to manifest. Within reason, thats pretty much it.

Hmb doesnt seem like that, at all. At least not going by the studies (and supp history). Merely adding it to your current schedule is probably not going to result in any significant body comp changes or weight-on-bar increases extra to whatever progression you are currently experiencing.


Hmb seems to work best in an anomalous environment.

That is, an atypical catabolic environment (moderate-high kcal deficit), and/or an extended atypical training stimulus (greatly increased weekly volume-frequency).

 

[squirtguns89]

Flicking through the various studies, and meta analysis, a pattern seems to emerge (at least to my eyes).

With creatine, say, you can pretty much start taking it alongside whatever resistance training protocol you are currently doing, and then wait for the benefits/results to manifest. Within reason, thats pretty much it.

Hmb doesnt seem like that, at all. At least not going by the studies (and supp history). Merely adding it to your current schedule is probably not going to result in any significant body comp changes or weight-on-bar increases extra to whatever progression you are currently experiencing.


Hmb seems to work best in an anomalous environment.

That is, an atypical catabolic environment (moderate-high kcal deficit), and/or an extended atypical training stimulus (greatly increased weekly volume-frequency).

I feel like its main selling factor/marketing is based on lbm changes so essentially being comped to natty anabolics ara/PA ect, if it was simply increased recover and comped more to lclt type ingredients and expectations were slightly tempered i wonder how perception of what it was worth taking it for would be?

less measurable results either way not training specifically for it, but buying it from say..someone who could provide a reputable source at value it might make it more popular for improved recovery if the perception and value were more tempered/reasonable/cost effective. hint hint. and yes i know you can buy bulk CA version already. but not much main stream options.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Well yeah, it was originally marketed as an anabolic, a purportedly powerful one at that.

What do we know is true with most genuine anabolics? They will tend to amplify normal progression rates without also requiring other variable modifications; ie start dosing, enjoy the eventual gains.

Hmb clearly fell remarkably short of accomplishing this. Why?

Most users (and studies) added it to typical training regimens. Or, to regimens already within the scope of typical adaptation for the subjects. It simply wont (usually) amplify progression in such scenarios.

 

[squirtguns89]

i meant put aside the marketing, and what we think we should use it for. and simply dumb it down and contemplate its merit for increased recovery. i realize it will shine in specific scenarios, but a lot of times, supplements arnt black or white. knowing its moa, how would it not increase recovery simply because one isnt in an over training or specific type of recovery? we are all mimicking these same scenarios, its just to a lesser degree.. unless youre flat out lazy but thats moot point.

edit: did read that, and understand that it failed to perform up to measurable standards. is that due to not tracking the proper markers, not using the proper target audience (people that lift hard in the first place)?? havent read over hmb studies in a while

theres also a value aspect when considering this point
$30+/month=better use something how it should to maximize optimal use/gains.
$~10/month people start considering merit for simple boosts

 

[muscleupcrohn]

i meant put aside the marketing, and what we think we should use it for. and simply dumb it down and contemplate its merit for increased recovery. i realize it will shine in specific scenarios, but a lot of times, supplements arnt black or white. knowing its moa, how would it not increase recovery simply because one isnt in an over training or specific type of recovery? we are all mimicking these same scenarios, its just to a lesser degree.. unless youre flat out lazy but thats moot point.

edit: did read that, and understand that it failed to perform up to measurable standards. is that due to not tracking the proper markers, not using the proper target audience (people that lift hard in the first place)?? havent read over hmb studies in a while

theres also a value aspect when considering this point
$30+/month=better use something how it should to maximize optimal use/gains.
$~10/month people start considering merit for simple boosts

When I take HMB, I increase my training frequency from 2x per week per body part to 3-4x per week. This, paired with focusing on increasing weight on the bar a little every workout, leads to more progress for me. I find it pairs very well with something like PA that should increase LBM/strength regardless of overreaching.

If I take HMB, but only hit each muscle 1-2x per week, I should be recovering plenty between workouts, so what should it even so? But by increasing my frequency by adding another session or two per muscle group per week, I am now at a point where I would not be recovering sufficiently between workouts, but HMB helps with this. It's anti-catabolic more than anabolic.

Edit: I'm assuming that most people aren't chronically overreaching, so adding HMB without increasing volume and/or frequency is not taking advantage of it. If it's expensive, it's foolish to waste money on it, but if it's cheap, it's a nice "safety net" if nothing else, especially if you're a fan of high volume and/or frequency workouts (think 70s era ; 2-3x per week with 15-20 sets per body part or something along those lines).

 

[squirtguns89]

When I take HMB, I increase my training frequency from 2x per week per body part to 3-4x per week. This, paired with focusing on increasing weight on the bar a little every workout, leads to more progress for me. I find it pairs very well with something like PA that should increase LBM/strength regardless of overreaching.

If I take HMB, but only hit each muscle 1-2x per week, I should be recovering plenty between workouts, so what should it even so? But by increasing my frequency by adding another session or two per muscle group per week, I am now at a point where I would not be recovering sufficiently between workouts, but HMB helps with this. It's anti-catabolic more than anabolic.

then basing it off that logic, is lclt/hica ect, reasonably pointless to use in your opinion based off a cost perspective bang for your buck. perhaps they have alternative moas unlike hmb, but recovery is where they shine no? why even take anything simply for mostly recovery benefits? i dont personally use anything for added recovery myself but im just attempting to open up the dialogue on this. ftr ive always used hmb in that way as well, simply thinking out loud here and being lazy.

although i will point out recovery isnt universal, how you feel at your age, someone 15 years old may not have your recovery capacity. over training/not recovering is a matter of context to some degree no?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

then basing it off that logic, is lclt/hica ect, reasonably pointless to use in your opinion based off a cost perspective bang for your buck. perhaps they have alternative moas unlike hmb, but recovery is where they shine no? why even take anything simply for mostly recovery benefits? i dont personally use anything for added recovery myself but im just attempting to open up the dialogue on this. ftr ive always used hmb in that way as well, simply thinking out loud here and being lazy.

although i will point out recovery isnt universal, how you feel at your age, someone 15 years old may not have your recovery capacity. over training/not recovering is a matter of context to some degree no?

HMB>HICA as an anti-catabolic for recovery IMO, but the two are similar in how they work for the most part.

LCLT has some other benefits besides recovery really.

As for why you'd take anything for recovery, you don't really need to unless you're pushing the envelope (your individual envelope) in some way. Like I said, most people aren't chronically/regularly pushing themselves to or past their limits (it's the truth), so they recover sufficiently on their own. However, if you're going to be adding volume and/or frequency to your training, you may benefit from improved recovery. The same is true for athletes in season where muscle is regularly lost; anti-catabolics could help here. For the average gym-bro or recreational lifter, HMB/HICA is not going to be of much use, but something like creatine, betaine, or PA likely would, as their benefits aren't so dependent on doing something different to maximize effectiveness.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Edit: reply to squirts...

Oh yeah man, I try avoid absolutes where possible, and agree with the grey scale in terms of how the messy real non study world tends to work.

Sure, at the end of the day, I agree with the sentiments of that_old_guy...the stuff is cheap, it might be providing benefit to some degree much of the time, so why not 365 days of year?

I guess my initial motivation was in amticipation of people believing that it would provide clear, percievable benefits by just "adding it in".

Also, grey scales aside, as with any supp (maximising ArA, for example), there is often a "works best in these type of scenarios".

Obviously up to each user if they wish to experiment in order to reap the most potential benefits they can.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I think I'm going to put up all the things the recent studies have shown improvement on, that don't fall into "Anti-Catabolic Cutting" or "Over-Reaching Gaining" - but it'll take me a while. I think we tend to only concentrate on fat loss or weight gain - it does a few other beneficial things.

 

[georgetown]

How does glutamine compare to hmb for recovery? Is it worth it?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I think I'm going to put up all the things the recent studies have shown improvement on, that don't fall into "Anti-Catabolic Cutting" or "Over-Reaching Gaining" - but it'll take me a while. I think we tend to only concentrate on fat loss or weight gain - it does a few other beneficial things.

Speaking for myself, Im interested (for the most part) in any beneficial but perceivable effect; simply, does the product amplify my normal progression rate. Body weight changes, and/or weight-added-to-bar, are typically the yardstick for progression simply because they are the most practical, and easiest, to measure.

And, lets be honest, aside from health, what else do we really care about in terms of lifting?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I think I'm going to put up all the things the recent studies have shown improvement on, that don't fall into "Anti-Catabolic Cutting" or "Over-Reaching Gaining" - but it'll take me a while. I think we tend to only concentrate on fat loss or weight gain - it does a few other beneficial things.

You have a good point. It may even be good for brain health with age. If it can help preserve our muscles and our brains as we age, it's a good general health supplement:

This recent study found that:

HMB forestalled the effects of aging on the dendritic tree of this population of neurons.

For more context:

In both healthy aging humans and rat models, there are cognitive deficits associated with age-related dendritic shrinkage within the prefrontal cortex.

As expected, there were fewer spines and a retraction of dendritic material in the apical and basilar trees in old age controls of both sexes compared with their middle-aged counterparts. However, these losses did not occur in the HMB-treated rats in either dendrites or the total number of dendritic spines.

Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate ameliorates aging effects in the dendritic tree of pyramidal neurons in the medial prefrontal cortex of both male an... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Zariph]

been using clear muscle and absolutely love it..i havent tried hmb-ca and seems like i should give it a try...could some1 recommend me any brand ? also would you dose more hmb ca than hmb fa?

 

[banjobounce]

How does glutamine compare to hmb for recovery? Is it worth it?

Heals the gut lining leading to better nutrient absorption= better recovery long term, imo.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

You have a good point. It may even be good for brain health with age. If it can help preserve our muscles and our brains as we age, it's a good general health supplement:

This recent study found that:


For more context:


Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate ameliorates aging effects in the dendritic tree of pyramidal neurons in the medial prefrontal cortex of both male an... - PubMed - NCBI

Hmm, interesting.

To me this raises the question, do we actually need to supplement with hmb in order to see these benefits though?

You pointed out in another thread, most of us lifters here likely get ample leucine, at least compared to the non lifting population. Might it then possibly follow that we dont need supplemental hmb (for some of these other health purposes)?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Hmm, interesting.

To me this raises the question, do we actually need to supplement with hmb in order to see these benefits though?

You pointed out in another thread, most of us lifters here likely get ample leucine, at least compared to the non lifting population. Might it then possibly follow that we dont need supplemental hmb (for some of these other health purposes)?

HMB is more anti-catabolic than leucine is. For some health purposes, I'm not entirely sure if it'd be necessary (I'll have to look more into similar studies that used leucine, if there are any), but when you can take a supplement that may have some muscle/strength benefits for healthy young lifters, and can also preserve muscle and the brain for older people, and it's cheap, it's not a bad addition really.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

HMB is more anti-catabolic than leucine is. For some health purposes, I'm not entirely sure if it'd be necessary (I'll have to look more into similar studies that used leucine, if there are any), but when you can take a supplement that may have some muscle/strength benefits for healthy young lifters, and can also preserve muscle and the brain for older people, and it's cheap, it's not a bad addition really.

Yeah for sure, but my point is if hmb is a metabolite of leucine, and you get ample leucine via diet...see where Im going?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Maybe I can clarify my thinking better...

Would it be accurate to say that dendrite study tells us more about the MoA of hmb, than it does about what human doses are required in order to see those benefits.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yeah for sure, but my point is if hmb is a metabolite of leucine, and you get ample leucine via diet...see where Im going?

I'm not sure if leucine provides enough HMB, or it'll do the same thing. Even with a high protein diet, HMB seems to provide anti-catabolic effects.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I'm not sure if leucine provides enough HMB, or it'll do the same thing. Even with a high protein diet, HMB seems to provide anti-catabolic effects.

Yeah, forget the anti cat stuff, Im talking about the dendrite study, or any similiar study.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Maybe I can clarify my thinking better...

Would it be accurate to say that dendrite study tells us more about the MoA of hmb, than it does about what human doses are required in order to see those benefits.

The study used 450mg/kg for rats, which is about 5g for a 70kg human.

From the full text:

This study establishes beneficial effects of HMB on the aging brain, and it provides the foundation for further investigation of the potential nootropic effects of HMB in the cognitive and neural decline of normal healthy aging. Studies examining the effects of HMB on cognitive performance in middle age and aging rats are in progress and indicate that HMB is often beneficial

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Gotcha, cool.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

been using clear muscle and absolutely love it..i havent tried hmb-ca and seems like i should give it a try...could some1 recommend me any brand ? also would you dose more hmb ca than hmb fa?

Im approx 100kg, and aim for 4gm/d, 2 x 2gm doses. Keep in mind this is for the purported ergo/body comp benefits, and J Wilsons most recent recommendations (he seems to have moved away from the thrice daily split, to more of a PA-type peri wo dosing).

Itll be interesting to see how this dose compares to any health studies that_old_guy puts up.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Itll be interesting to see how this dose compares to any health studies that_old_guy puts up.

Not health per se, just stuff like endurance etc.. that gets left out of the benefits for athletes sometimes. And, yeah, about having the time to actually do it... LOL. Don't hold your breath!

 

[NewAgeMayan]

If anyone is interested...theres a store selling Clear Muskle for 21$ a bottle. Easy to find, if you know where to search.

 

[jathan_howe]

If anyone is interested...theres a store selling Clear Muskle for 21$ a bottle. Easy to find, if you know where to search.

84 or 168ct bottle?

 

[NewAgeMayan]

84 or 168ct bottle?

168...all sizes are B1G1, 168ct is 42$ after a certain search site code is put in

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Is CM not selling well? Who discounts and BOGO's a massive seller? Or is it an expiration date thing (but I guess that would be the same thing - why didn't it all sell? )

 

[ma70]

HMB-FA was good stuff, but at it's price and with the data/info coming out about HMB-CA, I'm interested in trying HMB-CA but unfortunately, I have no idea where you guys find this stuff for cheap. I can't do the powder....

 

[Rob1882]

Had discussed interested in several HMB threads as well recovery so went out and picked up HMB-FA to try first and will follow it up with what many here are using with the less expensive bulk HMB-CA.


I did see people mention bulk powder of HMB-CA? How exactly is it dosed in comparison if I may ask or if someone has used both and in the powder form taste? can I dump it in my pre workout for example.

Forgive me for not recalling which all threads I posted in on HMB haha but this seemed like a good thread since it was about both forms.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I did see people mention bulk powder of HMB-CA? How exactly is it dosed in comparison if I may ask or if someone has used both and in the powder form taste? can I dump it in my pre workout for example.

Never used FA, never will. HMB-CA is dosed at ~3g/Day, evenly split, according to the latest research showing ergogenic improvements (since it is so cheap, I just heaping scoop a 1cc scoop - so probably getting ~4.5g/Day). Taste is 'chemical like' - but not as bad as Creatine HCL - I'd say no prob in a flavored PrWO. I do it straight and it doesn't bother me - after a year it's almost tasteless.

 

[Rob1882]

Never used FA, never will. HMB-CA is dosed at ~3g/Day, evenly split, according to the latest research showing ergogenic improvements (since it is so cheap, I just heaping scoop a 1cc scoop - so probably getting ~4.5g/Day). Taste is 'chemical like' - but not as bad as Creatine HCL - I'd say no prob in a flavored PrWO. I do it straight and it doesn't bother me - after a year it's almost tasteless.

Well I primarily wanted to try both just to try them, but thanks for the info I will be picking that up next.