Old school vs new which is superior?
For me, HMB-Ca is affordable enough to take every day for the rest of my life (I do!) - so no brainer here.Ca-HMB or free acid? There is no doubt that this is another study to put a question mark behind the necessity of buying the expensive free acid form of HMB. More than 90% of the previous (mostly promising) HMB studies have been conducted with calcium HMB consumed either once or, as in this case, thrice a day. In contrast to the functionality of Ca-HMB, however, the increased speed of absorption scientists have observed for the free acid form of HMB has yet to be proven to have practical relevance.
I feel like its main selling factor/marketing is based on lbm changes so essentially being comped to natty anabolics ara/PA ect, if it was simply increased recover and comped more to lclt type ingredients and expectations were slightly tempered i wonder how perception of what it was worth taking it for would be?Flicking through the various studies, and meta analysis, a pattern seems to emerge (at least to my eyes).
With creatine, say, you can pretty much start taking it alongside whatever resistance training protocol you are currently doing, and then wait for the benefits/results to manifest. Within reason, thats pretty much it.
Hmb doesnt seem like that, at all. At least not going by the studies (and supp history). Merely adding it to your current schedule is probably not going to result in any significant body comp changes or weight-on-bar increases extra to whatever progression you are currently experiencing.
Hmb seems to work best in an anomalous environment.
That is, an atypical catabolic environment (moderate-high kcal deficit), and/or an extended atypical training stimulus (greatly increased weekly volume-frequency).
When I take HMB, I increase my training frequency from 2x per week per body part to 3-4x per week. This, paired with focusing on increasing weight on the bar a little every workout, leads to more progress for me. I find it pairs very well with something like PA that should increase LBM/strength regardless of overreaching.i meant put aside the marketing, and what we think we should use it for. and simply dumb it down and contemplate its merit for increased recovery. i realize it will shine in specific scenarios, but a lot of times, supplements arnt black or white. knowing its moa, how would it not increase recovery simply because one isnt in an over training or specific type of recovery? we are all mimicking these same scenarios, its just to a lesser degree.. unless youre flat out lazy but thats moot point.
edit: did read that, and understand that it failed to perform up to measurable standards. is that due to not tracking the proper markers, not using the proper target audience (people that lift hard in the first place)?? havent read over hmb studies in a while
theres also a value aspect when considering this point
$30+/month=better use something how it should to maximize optimal use/gains.
$~10/month people start considering merit for simple boosts
then basing it off that logic, is lclt/hica ect, reasonably pointless to use in your opinion based off a cost perspective bang for your buck. perhaps they have alternative moas unlike hmb, but recovery is where they shine no? why even take anything simply for mostly recovery benefits? i dont personally use anything for added recovery myself but im just attempting to open up the dialogue on this. ftr ive always used hmb in that way as well, simply thinking out loud here and being lazy.When I take HMB, I increase my training frequency from 2x per week per body part to 3-4x per week. This, paired with focusing on increasing weight on the bar a little every workout, leads to more progress for me. I find it pairs very well with something like PA that should increase LBM/strength regardless of overreaching.
If I take HMB, but only hit each muscle 1-2x per week, I should be recovering plenty between workouts, so what should it even so? But by increasing my frequency by adding another session or two per muscle group per week, I am now at a point where I would not be recovering sufficiently between workouts, but HMB helps with this. It's anti-catabolic more than anabolic.
HMB>HICA as an anti-catabolic for recovery IMO, but the two are similar in how they work for the most part.then basing it off that logic, is lclt/hica ect, reasonably pointless to use in your opinion based off a cost perspective bang for your buck. perhaps they have alternative moas unlike hmb, but recovery is where they shine no? why even take anything simply for mostly recovery benefits? i dont personally use anything for added recovery myself but im just attempting to open up the dialogue on this. ftr ive always used hmb in that way as well, simply thinking out loud here and being lazy.
although i will point out recovery isnt universal, how you feel at your age, someone 15 years old may not have your recovery capacity. over training/not recovering is a matter of context to some degree no?
Speaking for myself, Im interested (for the most part) in any beneficial but perceivable effect; simply, does the product amplify my normal progression rate. Body weight changes, and/or weight-added-to-bar, are typically the yardstick for progression simply because they are the most practical, and easiest, to measure.I think I'm going to put up all the things the recent studies have shown improvement on, that don't fall into "Anti-Catabolic Cutting" or "Over-Reaching Gaining" - but it'll take me a while. I think we tend to only concentrate on fat loss or weight gain - it does a few other beneficial things.
You have a good point. It may even be good for brain health with age. If it can help preserve our muscles and our brains as we age, it's a good general health supplement:I think I'm going to put up all the things the recent studies have shown improvement on, that don't fall into "Anti-Catabolic Cutting" or "Over-Reaching Gaining" - but it'll take me a while. I think we tend to only concentrate on fat loss or weight gain - it does a few other beneficial things.
For more context:HMB forestalled the effects of aging on the dendritic tree of this population of neurons.
In both healthy aging humans and rat models, there are cognitive deficits associated with age-related dendritic shrinkage within the prefrontal cortex.
Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate ameliorates aging effects in the dendritic tree of pyramidal neurons in the medial prefrontal cortex of both male an... - PubMed - NCBIAs expected, there were fewer spines and a retraction of dendritic material in the apical and basilar trees in old age controls of both sexes compared with their middle-aged counterparts. However, these losses did not occur in the HMB-treated rats in either dendrites or the total number of dendritic spines.
Heals the gut lining leading to better nutrient absorption= better recovery long term, imo.How does glutamine compare to hmb for recovery? Is it worth it?
Hmm, interesting.You have a good point. It may even be good for brain health with age. If it can help preserve our muscles and our brains as we age, it's a good general health supplement:
This recent study found that:
For more context:
Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate ameliorates aging effects in the dendritic tree of pyramidal neurons in the medial prefrontal cortex of both male an... - PubMed - NCBI
HMB is more anti-catabolic than leucine is. For some health purposes, I'm not entirely sure if it'd be necessary (I'll have to look more into similar studies that used leucine, if there are any), but when you can take a supplement that may have some muscle/strength benefits for healthy young lifters, and can also preserve muscle and the brain for older people, and it's cheap, it's not a bad addition really.Hmm, interesting.
To me this raises the question, do we actually need to supplement with hmb in order to see these benefits though?
You pointed out in another thread, most of us lifters here likely get ample leucine, at least compared to the non lifting population. Might it then possibly follow that we dont need supplemental hmb (for some of these other health purposes)?
Yeah for sure, but my point is if hmb is a metabolite of leucine, and you get ample leucine via diet...see where Im going?HMB is more anti-catabolic than leucine is. For some health purposes, I'm not entirely sure if it'd be necessary (I'll have to look more into similar studies that used leucine, if there are any), but when you can take a supplement that may have some muscle/strength benefits for healthy young lifters, and can also preserve muscle and the brain for older people, and it's cheap, it's not a bad addition really.
I'm not sure if leucine provides enough HMB, or it'll do the same thing. Even with a high protein diet, HMB seems to provide anti-catabolic effects.Yeah for sure, but my point is if hmb is a metabolite of leucine, and you get ample leucine via diet...see where Im going?
Yeah, forget the anti cat stuff, Im talking about the dendrite study, or any similiar study.I'm not sure if leucine provides enough HMB, or it'll do the same thing. Even with a high protein diet, HMB seems to provide anti-catabolic effects.
The study used 450mg/kg for rats, which is about 5g for a 70kg human.Maybe I can clarify my thinking better...
Would it be accurate to say that dendrite study tells us more about the MoA of hmb, than it does about what human doses are required in order to see those benefits.
This study establishes beneficial effects of HMB on the aging brain, and it provides the foundation for further investigation of the potential nootropic effects of HMB in the cognitive and neural decline of normal healthy aging. Studies examining the effects of HMB on cognitive performance in middle age and aging rats are in progress and indicate that HMB is often beneficial
Im approx 100kg, and aim for 4gm/d, 2 x 2gm doses. Keep in mind this is for the purported ergo/body comp benefits, and J Wilsons most recent recommendations (he seems to have moved away from the thrice daily split, to more of a PA-type peri wo dosing).been using clear muscle and absolutely love it..i havent tried hmb-ca and seems like i should give it a try...could some1 recommend me any brand ? also would you dose more hmb ca than hmb fa?
Not health per se, just stuff like endurance etc.. that gets left out of the benefits for athletes sometimes. And, yeah, about having the time to actually do it... LOL. Don't hold your breath!Itll be interesting to see how this dose compares to any health studies that_old_guy puts up.
84 or 168ct bottle?If anyone is interested...theres a store selling Clear Muskle for 21$ a bottle. Easy to find, if you know where to search.
168...all sizes are B1G1, 168ct is 42$ after a certain search site code is put in84 or 168ct bottle?
Never used FA, never will. HMB-CA is dosed at ~3g/Day, evenly split, according to the latest research showing ergogenic improvements (since it is so cheap, I just heaping scoop a 1cc scoop - so probably getting ~4.5g/Day). Taste is 'chemical like' - but not as bad as Creatine HCL - I'd say no prob in a flavored PrWO. I do it straight and it doesn't bother me - after a year it's almost tasteless.I did see people mention bulk powder of HMB-CA? How exactly is it dosed in comparison if I may ask or if someone has used both and in the powder form taste? can I dump it in my pre workout for example.
Well I primarily wanted to try both just to try them, but thanks for the info I will be picking that up next.Never used FA, never will. HMB-CA is dosed at ~3g/Day, evenly split, according to the latest research showing ergogenic improvements (since it is so cheap, I just heaping scoop a 1cc scoop - so probably getting ~4.5g/Day). Taste is 'chemical like' - but not as bad as Creatine HCL - I'd say no prob in a flavored PrWO. I do it straight and it doesn't bother me - after a year it's almost tasteless.
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