change in norcodrene?

GIJane1928

Member
Awards
0
Anyone know what's up with the change in formula? Thoughts on the new one? Bummed.. I liked the old one. Suggestions for somethings similar are welcomed
 

GIJane1928

Member
Awards
0
Just went to d p s to order.some and the label is completely different. I don't post often and don't know how to link you to the page. No more yohimbe. Primary ingredients are lemon balm extract, l-theanine, aframomum melegueta extract, and kola nut extract... time to look for something new. Very disappointed by PES
 
ericool007

ericool007

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Oh eww that sounds terrible, if it's true I'm sure thell try to justify it just like the BLR guy tried saying letrone would out do formeron.
 

GIJane1928

Member
Awards
0
I found bottles of the original and picked a few up. I hope they continue to offer both formulas
 

Alan1

Member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Odd that their (PES) website doesn't mention anything about it but yeah, I really like the original/current formula too.

Fingers crossed they don't do the same with Alphamine....
 
Afi140

Afi140

Legend
Awards
4
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Established
Ape McGrapes

Ape McGrapes

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Where da PES reps at?
 
Woody

Woody

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
bdcc kbayne Driven2lift Synapsin

What else is going to change fellas and why aren't you letting anyone know about the changes? No love for AM anymore?
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
That just stinks. Say it ain't so Joe.
 
Geoforce

Geoforce

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
You should be able to stock up on the previous formula still I would imagine.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
I guess this means that NoAddedHmones was right - the TGR5 pathway doesn't pan out, and PES is admitting this without admitting it?
 

GIJane1928

Member
Awards
0
The new formula doesn't look very promising. Opinions?
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
If it weren't for the Kola Nut/Caffeine, I'd think maybe they were releasing a Norcodrene PM or something - the lemon balm may reduce cortisol, but the entire formula seems pretty lacking.
 
Afi140

Afi140

Legend
Awards
4
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Established
If it weren't for the Kola Nut/Caffeine, I'd think maybe they were releasing a Norcodrene PM or something - the lemon balm may reduce cortisol, but the entire formula seems pretty lacking.
Edit. Misread.
 
Synapsin

Synapsin

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Hi friends,

I've been away while (abroad for personal reasons) so I haven't posted lately. The reason the formula was altered was for a multitude of reasons, so let's delve into them together:

1) Abroad appeal. The brand is trying to consolidate formulas. Having formulas specific to different regions is not particularly helpful and the new formula for norcodrene is the best formula for both domestic and international markets where some ingredients are not allowed (think Y)

2) On the subject on Y, we removed Y for international appeal and because of recent lawsuits due to stimulants getting unwanted attention from the FDA/ the guys at harvard doing all those studies. Y is a great ingredient, but lots of people are sensitive, and all it takes is one person to have things go wrong; we do not want to have to deal with potential lawsuits. That is why the formula isn't stimulant heavy as well. This is a trend you'll notice from all the major brands soon.

3) Okay, so now you're thinking that's fine and all, but what about results? The first norcodrene was truly revolutionary and is still a fantastic formula. The new formula, however, is also fantastic. Let's discuss it:

Chromium picolinate has a host of studies in humans showing it results in significant weight loss, including the dose included in norcodrene.

Kaats GR, Blum K, Pullin D, Keith SC, Wood R. 1998. A randomized, double-masked, placebo controlled study of the effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A replication and extension of a previous study. Current Therapeutic Research. 59(6):379- 88.

Kaats, G. R., Blum, K., Fisher, J. A., & Adelman, J. A. (1996). Effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A randomized, double-masked, placebo-controlled study. Current Therapeutic Research - Clinical and Experimental, 57(10), 747-756.

Lemon balm was included for the product for the same reason l-theanine was, it's ability to take the edge off. Lemon balm has research in humans showing it relieves moderate anxiety, which is particularly helpful to individuals dieting (who are prone to being stressed).

Cases J, et al. (2011). Pilot trial of Melissa officinalis L. leaf extract in the treatment of volunteers suffering from mild-to-moderate anxiety disorders and sleep disturbances. Med J Nutrition Metab.


L-theanine is also known for its ability to take the edge off (I'm going to make my next article on l-theanine to explain in further detail). L-theanine not only reduces psychological and physiological stress, but it also enhances performance.

Higashiyama, A., Htay, H., Ozeki, M., et al. (2011). Effects of l-theanine on attention and reaction time response. Journal of Functional Foods. 3:3(171-178).

Kimura, K., Ozeki, M., Juneja, L. R., & Ohira, H. (2007). l-Theanine reduces psychological and physiological stress responses. Biological Psychology, 74(1), 39-45.


Aframomum melegueta has a human study showing it increases your metabolism while decreasing visceral fat in humans.

Sugita, J., et al. (2014). Daily ingestion of grains of paradise (Aframomum melegueta) extract increases whole-body energy expenditure and decreases visceral fat in humans. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol. 60(1):22-7.

Kola nut extract is a unique inclusion because of its stimulant feel. We were thinking of a new stimulant to put into this product that wouldn't be in prolific that would cause a unique feeling. Kola nut has a history of use, provides unique stimulant feel (euphoria), and the FDA has granted Kola Nut GRAS status, recognizing that it is safe for consumption in humans.

Caffeine- as for caffeine, not much I really have to say there about caffeine, we all know what it does.

The important part about this product is that it is a product filled with ingredients based on human studies, that the ingredients work well together to burn fat, provide a unique stimulant feel, while taking the edge off from dieting. Not only that, but every ingredient has been vetted by our team of lawyers, so there will be no issues with the product in the future, etc. I am confident those who enjoyed the old norcodrene will enjoy the new norcodrene if they give it a chance. It also gives you the ability to stack with SHIFT (should you choose to, but by no means do you need to stack the two together). It got rave reviews during out beta tests. I will have a longer product write up later; I wasn't expecting the label to be leaked so early, but that's just the way it is sometimes!

There is an important take home message from my post and I am afraid most people will skip it: it's that the product works for what it's intended use is: improved body composition, while providing mood enhancement. This product is a supplement, not a magical cure. This product honestly works great, and feels great. The product was not reformulated for any other primary reason other than more human studies showing improved body composition while accounting for more mood enhancement. The reason I included reasons #1 and 2 are because they were minute factors (less than 10% of the reason), but factors nonetheless. I have always been honest and upfront with the AM crew about the reason for changes, and not many people are willing to do that on the forums.
 

GIJane1928

Member
Awards
0
One study... that showed some results in males. Will stock up on the old and watch reviews while looking for a replacement supp. Thanks for the response
 
Woody

Woody

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Is Alphamine going to change, too?

Totally understand your brand is more than AM - although some won't. Will also try it before I knock it.
Synapsin
 
cubsfan815

cubsfan815

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Based off the comment regarding stimulants, Alphamine is probably next.
 

josun

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Hi friends,

I've been away while (abroad for personal reasons) so I haven't posted lately. The reason the formula was altered was for a multitude of reasons, so let's delve into them together:

1) Abroad appeal. The brand is trying to consolidate formulas. Having formulas specific to different regions is not particularly helpful and the new formula for norcodrene is the best formula for both domestic and international markets where some ingredients are not allowed (think Y)

2) On the subject on Y, we removed Y for international appeal and because of recent lawsuits due to stimulants getting unwanted attention from the FDA/ the guys at harvard doing all those studies. Y is a great ingredient, but lots of people are sensitive, and all it takes is one person to have things go wrong; we do not want to have to deal with potential lawsuits. That is why the formula isn't stimulant heavy as well. This is a trend you'll notice from all the major brands soon.

3) Okay, so now you're thinking that's fine and all, but what about results? The first norcodrene was truly revolutionary and is still a fantastic formula. The new formula, however, is also fantastic. Let's discuss it:

Chromium picolinate has a host of studies in humans showing it results in significant weight loss, including the dose included in norcodrene.

Kaats GR, Blum K, Pullin D, Keith SC, Wood R. 1998. A randomized, double-masked, placebo controlled study of the effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A replication and extension of a previous study. Current Therapeutic Research. 59(6):379- 88.

Kaats, G. R., Blum, K., Fisher, J. A., & Adelman, J. A. (1996). Effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A randomized, double-masked, placebo-controlled study. Current Therapeutic Research - Clinical and Experimental, 57(10), 747-756.

Lemon balm was included for the product for the same reason l-theanine was, it's ability to take the edge off. Lemon balm has research in humans showing it relieves moderate anxiety, which is particularly helpful to individuals dieting (who are prone to being stressed).

Cases J, et al. (2011). Pilot trial of Melissa officinalis L. leaf extract in the treatment of volunteers suffering from mild-to-moderate anxiety disorders and sleep disturbances. Med J Nutrition Metab.


L-theanine is also known for its ability to take the edge off (I'm going to make my next article on l-theanine to explain in further detail). L-theanine not only reduces psychological and physiological stress, but it also enhances performance.

Higashiyama, A., Htay, H., Ozeki, M., et al. (2011). Effects of l-theanine on attention and reaction time response. Journal of Functional Foods. 3:3(171-178).

Kimura, K., Ozeki, M., Juneja, L. R., & Ohira, H. (2007). l-Theanine reduces psychological and physiological stress responses. Biological Psychology, 74(1), 39-45.


Aframomum melegueta has a human study showing it increases your metabolism while decreasing visceral fat in humans.

Sugita, J., et al. (2014). Daily ingestion of grains of paradise (Aframomum melegueta) extract increases whole-body energy expenditure and decreases visceral fat in humans. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol. 60(1):22-7.

Kola nut extract is a unique inclusion because of its stimulant feel. We were thinking of a new stimulant to put into this product that wouldn't be in prolific that would cause a unique feeling. Kola nut has a history of use, provides unique stimulant feel (euphoria), and the FDA has granted Kola Nut GRAS status, recognizing that it is safe for consumption in humans.

Caffeine- as for caffeine, not much I really have to say there about caffeine, we all know what it does.

The important part about this product is that it is a product filled with ingredients based on human studies, that the ingredients work well together to burn fat, provide a unique stimulant feel, while taking the edge off from dieting. Not only that, but every ingredient has been vetted by our team of lawyers, so there will be no issues with the product in the future, etc. I am confident those who enjoyed the old norcodrene will enjoy the new norcodrene if they give it a chance. It also gives you the ability to stack with SHIFT (should you choose to, but by no means do you need to stack the two together). It got rave reviews during out beta tests. I will have a longer product write up later; I wasn't expecting the label to be leaked so early, but that's just the way it is sometimes!
so no novel stim for the New pre work out? And is alphamine gonna change to?
 
Woody

Woody

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Based off the comment regarding stimulants, Alphamine is probably next.
That was my first thought too, but wanted to double check since Alphamine is about as light on stims as you can get.
 
Synapsin

Synapsin

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
One study... that showed some results in males. Will stock up on the old and watch reviews while looking for a replacement supp. Thanks for the response
One study? I posted multiple, and there are more, but this is not intended as the product write up.

Is Alphamine going to change, too?

Totally understand your brand is more than AM - although some won't. Will also try it before I knock it.
Synapsin
Thank you Woody. There is an important take home message from my post and I am afraid most people will skip it: it's that the product works for what it's intended use is: improved body composition, while providing mood enhancement. This product is a supplement, not a magical cure. This product honestly works great, and feels great. The product was not reformulated for any other primary reason other than more human studies showing improved body composition while accounting for more mood enhancement. The reason I included reasons #1 and 2 are because they were minute factors (less than 10% of the reason), but factors nonetheless. I have always been honest and upfront with the AM crew about the reason for changes, and not many people are willing to do that on the forums.
 
JDybya

JDybya

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Brb....buying lifetime supply of old norc...
 

ma70

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Wishing you guys switched to Alpha-Y instead as it seems like it would have achieved a similar idea...but I guess I will just wait for the write up. Kola Nut seems like it could be intetesting.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
No need to worry guys, Hi-Tech will come out with a knock-off of the OG. Just like they did with Hydroxycuts or whatever it is.
 
cubsfan815

cubsfan815

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Wishing you guys switched to Alpha-Y instead as it seems like it would have achieved a similar idea...but I guess I will just wait for the write up. Kola Nut seems like it could be intetesting.
Weren't they using Alpha-Y?
 
bdcc

bdcc

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
We will have some bottles ready shortly and of course will be looking to hook up some loyal AM bros. :)
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
I loved the OG Norcodrene, one of the few on here who thought it was way better than alphamine. I'm as big a skeptic as anyone of the new formula. You guys are going in a new direction, and on a personal/business level, I'm happy for you. I hope you guys are even more successful.

On a greedy level, I'm sad for me, because I will miss the old stuff.
 
Synapsin

Synapsin

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
They said it was Yohimbine, but a special extract called SA2-A or something.
It was a yohimbe extract that included different alkaloids, including having yohimbine in it.
 
bdcc

bdcc

Legend
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
I loved the OG Norcodrene, one of the few on here who thought it was way better than alphamine. I'm as big a skeptic as anyone of the new formula. You guys are going in a new direction, and on a personal/business level, I'm happy for you. I hope you guys are even more successful.

On a greedy level, I'm sad for me, because I will miss the old stuff.
Some people just hate change in general.

Every single time we have reformulated something, at least one person on the forum says the new product must be inferior.

Even in instances where we could have happily continued to sell the previous formula (Alpha-T2, AnaBeta Elite etc). Some people are naturally sceptical and sometimes naturally cynical and pessimistic lol.

When we pick some forum reviewers we can see what people think then. :)

They said it was Yohimbine, but a special extract called SA2-A or something.
Right, it wasn't alpha-yohimbe. :)
 

ma70

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
Well, fat burners are for mood benefits and appetite suppressing. I never expect fat burners to actually burn fat, but assist people in remaining mentally sane during dieting (although I do think Yohimbine + fasted cardio is great). The thing is, without Yohimbine (or any variant of it), will it actually suppress appetite that well? That's my main concern to be honest. I think L-Theanine+Caffeine is a great combo because it gives stim + no jitters (for the stim sensitive), and I really have no idea what the other ingredients do....so yeah, how's the appetite suppression?
 

squirtguns89

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Am I reaching here guessing that we might have an idea what the next insider will be...
 
Jiigzz

Jiigzz

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • First Up Vote
I like Y, but it's so damn cheap I can add my own. Is that the point? Naw, but it can still be done if you also like Y.

I know people who HATE Y. It exacerbates their anxiety and makes them feel uncomfortable. Moreover, I personally cannot readily import it. I do, but ive had enough warning letters from the govt. that a few less would be preferred.

When OG Erase was altered, there was an outcry, but you can buy the ingredient for a fraction of the cost nowadays and its still included in a multitide of products. IMO PES stay ahead of the redundant curve by being innovative. Stay complacent and you'll be left behind.

The brand is also beyond AM - have you seen the amount of e-tailers and countries they are in now? They have more than just YOU to consider. I also understand why SNS includes somethings that I know the board won't approve of, or at the very least question, but it's done because the company is beyond the forum and needs to take into account the needs of it's entire market.

Meh. I like the look of it.
 
Woody

Woody

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
I like Y, but it's so damn cheap I can add my own. Is that the point? Naw, but it can still be done if you also like Y.

I know people who HATE Y. It exacerbates their anxiety and makes them feel uncomfortable. Moreover, I personally cannot readily import it. I do, but ive had enough warning letters from the govt. that a few less would be preferred.

When OG Erase was altered, there was an outcry, but you can buy the ingredient for a fraction of the cost nowadays and its still included in a multitide of products. IMO PES stay ahead of the redundant curve by being innovative. Stay complacent and you'll be left behind.

The brand is also beyond AM - have you seen the amount of e-tailers and countries they are in now? They have more than just YOU to consider. I also understand why SNS includes somethings that I know the board won't approve of, or at the very least question, but it's done because the company is beyond the forum and needs to take into account the needs of it's entire market.

Meh. I like the look of it.
Less logic, more pitchforks!!!!
 
Driven2lift

Driven2lift

AnabolicMinds Site Rep
Awards
0
Great points ^


Sorry guys, just back from vacation!

The mood effects on this one are going to be a highlight, those who get irritable dieting should definitely try.

I love Y, I won't change that opinion to suit the scenario. I may stack my own, which is fine by me.

Those who have issues with Y products might even see benefit from adding one of these.

Definitely will try this out back to back with our original and comment on the differences.
 
VaughnTrue

VaughnTrue

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
No need to worry guys, Hi-Tech will come out with a knock-off of the OG. Just like they did with Hydroxycuts or whatever it is.

insider special, only $9.99/bottle Morcodrene coming soon
 

GIJane1928

Member
Awards
0
As I said, I'm interested in hearing the feedback on the new. Until then I'm enjoying the old. I haven't been disappointed yet by PES on quality of products. Any prob w any screenings for the new?
 
Hockeyaus33

Hockeyaus33

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
Actually..... companies are not going lighter on stims because of the FDA. It seems to be the opposite. We have a company suing the FDA and tons of companies are following. About once a week I hear of a company reintroducing DMAA back into their product.
 
NoAddedHmones

NoAddedHmones

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Hi friends,

I've been away while (abroad for personal reasons) so I haven't posted lately. The reason the formula was altered was for a multitude of reasons, so let's delve into them together:

1) Abroad appeal. The brand is trying to consolidate formulas. Having formulas specific to different regions is not particularly helpful and the new formula for norcodrene is the best formula for both domestic and international markets where some ingredients are not allowed (think Y)

2) On the subject on Y, we removed Y for international appeal and because of recent lawsuits due to stimulants getting unwanted attention from the FDA/ the guys at harvard doing all those studies. Y is a great ingredient, but lots of people are sensitive, and all it takes is one person to have things go wrong; we do not want to have to deal with potential lawsuits. That is why the formula isn't stimulant heavy as well. This is a trend you'll notice from all the major brands soon.

3) Okay, so now you're thinking that's fine and all, but what about results? The first norcodrene was truly revolutionary and is still a fantastic formula. The new formula, however, is also fantastic. Let's discuss it:

Chromium picolinate has a host of studies in humans showing it results in significant weight loss, including the dose included in norcodrene.

Kaats GR, Blum K, Pullin D, Keith SC, Wood R. 1998. A randomized, double-masked, placebo controlled study of the effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A replication and extension of a previous study. Current Therapeutic Research. 59(6):379- 88.

Kaats, G. R., Blum, K., Fisher, J. A., & Adelman, J. A. (1996). Effects of chromium picolinate supplementation on body composition: A randomized, double-masked, placebo-controlled study. Current Therapeutic Research - Clinical and Experimental, 57(10), 747-756.

Lemon balm was included for the product for the same reason l-theanine was, it's ability to take the edge off. Lemon balm has research in humans showing it relieves moderate anxiety, which is particularly helpful to individuals dieting (who are prone to being stressed).

Cases J, et al. (2011). Pilot trial of Melissa officinalis L. leaf extract in the treatment of volunteers suffering from mild-to-moderate anxiety disorders and sleep disturbances. Med J Nutrition Metab.


L-theanine is also known for its ability to take the edge off (I'm going to make my next article on l-theanine to explain in further detail). L-theanine not only reduces psychological and physiological stress, but it also enhances performance.

Higashiyama, A., Htay, H., Ozeki, M., et al. (2011). Effects of l-theanine on attention and reaction time response. Journal of Functional Foods. 3:3(171-178).

Kimura, K., Ozeki, M., Juneja, L. R., & Ohira, H. (2007). l-Theanine reduces psychological and physiological stress responses. Biological Psychology, 74(1), 39-45.


Aframomum melegueta has a human study showing it increases your metabolism while decreasing visceral fat in humans.

Sugita, J., et al. (2014). Daily ingestion of grains of paradise (Aframomum melegueta) extract increases whole-body energy expenditure and decreases visceral fat in humans. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol. 60(1):22-7.

Kola nut extract is a unique inclusion because of its stimulant feel. We were thinking of a new stimulant to put into this product that wouldn't be in prolific that would cause a unique feeling. Kola nut has a history of use, provides unique stimulant feel (euphoria), and the FDA has granted Kola Nut GRAS status, recognizing that it is safe for consumption in humans.

Caffeine- as for caffeine, not much I really have to say there about caffeine, we all know what it does.

The important part about this product is that it is a product filled with ingredients based on human studies, that the ingredients work well together to burn fat, provide a unique stimulant feel, while taking the edge off from dieting. Not only that, but every ingredient has been vetted by our team of lawyers, so there will be no issues with the product in the future, etc. I am confident those who enjoyed the old norcodrene will enjoy the new norcodrene if they give it a chance. It also gives you the ability to stack with SHIFT (should you choose to, but by no means do you need to stack the two together). It got rave reviews during out beta tests. I will have a longer product write up later; I wasn't expecting the label to be leaked so early, but that's just the way it is sometimes!

There is an important take home message from my post and I am afraid most people will skip it: it's that the product works for what it's intended use is: improved body composition, while providing mood enhancement. This product is a supplement, not a magical cure. This product honestly works great, and feels great. The product was not reformulated for any other primary reason other than more human studies showing improved body composition while accounting for more mood enhancement. The reason I included reasons #1 and 2 are because they were minute factors (less than 10% of the reason), but factors nonetheless. I have always been honest and upfront with the AM crew about the reason for changes, and not many people are willing to do that on the forums.
Interesting, I remember reading up on kola nut a while ago, but never tested it for stim effects. Will be trying this new formula, to see how it feelz
 
ericool007

ericool007

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
If alphamine changes ill be pissed its the only pes produt i use anymore and still an alltime favorite.
 

Daycrawler

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
insider special, only $9.99/bottle Morcodrene coming soon
What shape and color will the pills come in? Please say blue and in the shape of M
 
iboj007

iboj007

New member
Awards
0
Not to sound like an asshat but these newer, lighter products harken back to the old days of fat burners with nothing novel or exciting about them.
 

Sculptor

Member
Awards
2
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Not to sound like an asshat but these newer, lighter products harken back to the old days of fat burners with nothing novel or exciting about them.
Wholeheartedly agree. While I understand that PES is a growing company and has to cover themselves from liability, it's kinda disappointing to see this new formula. I'm not saying that it necessarily won't work (time will tell) but I am saying that it sux to see them change so much. They are most definitely a mainstream company now and need to cater to the masses I guess.

I just hope that other companies will continue to fight the good fight and not "conform." Let's be real, the government or FDA has been coming after the supplement industry for years and years for things that we all know have been overblown. I've heard it time and time again that the stuff that works is what gets banned. I'm not saying we should all be ingesting dangerous chemicals but I think you all know what I mean.

Regardless, potent stimulant products aren't going anywhere. This goes back to the days of ultimate orange /ephedra. The people will always buy what really gets them going. Just look at all the love for DMAA and mesomorph.
 

Similar threads


Top