Gymnema Sylvestra as a GDA

[BeastFitness]

***Gymnema Sylvestra as a Glucose Disposal Agent (GDA)***​

Gymnema has been a go to glucose disposal agent for myself for some time, especially after seeing how it kept my blood glucose lower than many other GDAs on the market. Gymnema works by slowing the transport of glucose from the intestines into the blood stream, there by lowering blood sugar and lowering hemoglobin A1c. Gymnema also aids in repairing and regenerating beta cells in the pancreas (which produce insulin) and in the reduction of glycosolated plasma protein levels.

Overall Gymnema is within my top favorite 3 glucose disposal agents mainly because of how my body metabolizes and utilizes this supplement. I've seen clients have almost no response and others only a moderate response. The key is to experiment with every GDA ingredient in bulk to see which effects you the best and proceed accordingly.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234167316_Gymnema_sylvestre_An_Alternative_Therapeutic_Agent_for_Management_of_Diabetes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20812281
Phytochemical and Pharmacological Properties of Gymnema sylvestre: An Important Medicinal Plant

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Sub.

 

[yelis300]

Have you tried Ecklonia Cava? It's a star ingredient in BLR's Follidrone 2.0 works so well it makes some people feel hypo, myself included. Always wanted to try berberine too but never got around to it yet.

 

[BeastFitness]

Have you tried Ecklonia Cava? It's a star ingredient in BLR's Follidrone 2.0 works so well it makes some people feel hypo, myself included. Always wanted to try berberine too but never got around to it yet.

Actually no I never have! I need to look into that!

Berberine is top notch! Right up there with chromium!

 

[mcgeier]

Actually no I never have! I need to look into that!

Berberine is top notch! Right up there with chromium!

Chromium? Is it really a good GDA?

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Chromium? Is it really a good GDA?

Chromium Picolinate yes.

 

[BeastFitness]

Chromium? Is it really a good GDA?

Chromium Picolinate yes.

^^^this..its tremendous! I actually did an experiment on myself checking my BG levels and found personally how I respond to certain GDAs

[video=youtube;WNJJC0xt7x0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNJJC0xt7x0[/video]

 

[kbayne]

Be aware that Gymnema Sylvestra blocks the absorption of carbohydrates.

So depending on the goal, it will make a difference when to utilize the ingredient.

 

[Sparkss]

Be aware that Gymnema Sylvestra blocks the absorption of carbohydrates.

So depending on the goal, it will make a difference when to utilize the ingredient.

Which, depending on the goal, could be a benefit. The one question I would have would be around GI impact from using it? Any time I try a supp that "blocks absorption" of anything, that "blocked" something tends to put me into a restroom more often than when I am not on the supp.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Which, depending on the goal, could be a benefit. The one question I would have would be around GI impact from using it? Any time I try a supp that "blocks absorption" of anything, that "blocked" something tends to put me into a restroom more often than when I am not on the supp.

What's bad about that? You can enjoy the taste and **** it out without hindering your cut, and you're spending less money fiber. Win, Win, Win to me.

 

[Sparkss]

I don't mind that part of it. What I mind is when I end up with the runs from it. I don't need any fiber (yet) to be "regular". The GI impact I am referring to makes it so that I can't be far from a bathroom, not just "expel" it the next time I would normally be in the bathroom.

 

[Sparkss]

Overall Gymnema is within my top favorite 3 glucose disposal agents mainly because of how my body metabolizes and utilizes this supplement. I've seen clients have almost no response and others only a moderate response. The key is to experiment with every GDA ingredient in bulk to see which effects you the best and proceed accordingly.

What does your evaluation protocol entail? Do you use a glucose meter at fixed intervals after a known meal intake? Or just an over "feel" for how well the product works? Or something in between those two extremes?

Thanks!

 

[yelis300]

Hey beast, what are your top 5 gda's you've tested? What's your best gda stack in your opinion?

 

[booneman77]

Subbed

 

[Sparkss]

Be aware that Gymnema Sylvestra blocks the absorption of carbohydrates.

So depending on the goal, it will make a difference when to utilize the ingredient.

I had another question on this. How does the carb blocking effectiveness of Gymnema compare to some other commercially produced carb blockers (such as Phase2, or more commonly know as Phaseolus vulgaris/White Kidney Bean extract)?

Thanks!

 

[kbayne]

I had another question on this. How does the carb blocking effectiveness of Gymnema compare to some other commercially produced carb blockers (such as Phase2, or more commonly know as Phaseolus vulgaris/White Kidney Bean extract)?

Thanks!

It should also be noted, Gymnema Sylvestra isn't a GDA, but rather an effective strategy to block/slow absorption of carbohydrates. Just don't want people to get confused on that.

As for your question, I personally haven't looked into Phase 2/WKME much, but I do know it is another effective ingredient at blocking carbohydrate absorption when taking in higher starch containing meals. So IMO, would be a good option for those looking for this type of product.

 

[kbayne]

Hey beast, what are your top 5 gda's you've tested? What's your best gda stack in your opinion?

Not beast, but IMO, top GDA ingredients, and what I use personally:

Berberine
Na-R-ALA
Agmatine
Cinnamon
ALCAR

 

[Sparkss]

It should also be noted, Gymnema Sylvestra isn't a GDA, but rather an effective strategy to block/slow absorption of carbohydrates. Just don't want people to get confused on that.

As for your question, I personally haven't looked into Phase 2/WKME much, but I do know it is another effective ingredient at blocking carbohydrate absorption when taking in higher starch containing meals. So IMO, would be a good option for those looking for this type of product.

Right, but WKBE does not do anything for sugar intake. That appears to be an advantage that Gymnema has

 

[money0351]

Not beast, but IMO, top GDA ingredients, and what I use personally:

Berberine
Na-R-ALA
Agmatine
Cinnamon
ALCAR

Same here. Solid list

 

[kbayne]

Right, but WKBE does not do anything for sugar intake. That appears to be an advantage that Gymnema has

Correct. Which is why I stated "higher starch" containing meals in my previous post.

 

[Sparkss]

Not beast, but IMO, top GDA ingredients, and what I use personally:

Berberine
Na-R-ALA
Agmatine
Cinnamon
ALCAR

I have used Na-R-ALA and Agmatine (both at bedtime)

I did not realize that ALCAR had GDA properties.

I have been wanting to try berberine, but just haven't gotten around to it, but I may need to move it up my list of supps to try. Thanks for the list!

 

[Sparkss]

Correct. Which is why I stated "higher starch" containing meals in my previous post.

Yes, you did . I wasn't trying to contradict or anything, just stating the difference between the two for any others following along with this thread.

But that difference was also why I was asking about how the carb blocking strength matched up with WKBE. I have been using WKBE with higher simple carb meals for about a year now, to blunt the insulin spike from them, with relative success. But it would be nice to have a supp that also managed any sucrose that snuck its way into my diet, without having to add a separate product. One advantage to WKBE is that it is relatively inexpensive to use, I am not sure how much Gymnema costs to supplement with.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[kbayne]

I have used Na-R-ALA and Agmatine (both at bedtime)

I did not realize that ALCAR had GDA properties.

I have been wanting to try berberine, but just haven't gotten around to it, but I may need to move it up my list of supps to try. Thanks for the list!

Just one great benefit of ALCAR most aren't familiar with .

Berberine is IMO, #1. It has a few negatives, but if used properly, can be very beneficial.

I also really like Agmatine as it has ability to be selective towards muscle tissue over adipose.

 

[kbayne]

Yes, you did . I wasn't trying to contradict or anything, just stating the difference between the two for any others following along with this thread.

But that difference was also why I was asking about how the carb blocking strength matched up with WKBE. I have been using WKBE with higher simple carb meals for about a year now, to blunt the insulin spike from them, with relative success. But it would be nice to have a supp that also managed any sucrose that snuck its way into my diet, without having to add a separate product. One advantage to WKBE is that it is relatively inexpensive to use, I am not sure how much Gymnema costs to supplement with.

Thanks for the feedback!

Gymnema can be had for relatively cheap I do believe. I'd go ahead and grab some if you're looking for something for simple carbs.

 

[cheftepesh1]

Gymnema can be had for relatively cheap I do believe. I'd go ahead and grab some if you're looking for something for simple carbs.

Yes it's very inexpensive. I pick it up for about $5 a bottle for 90.

 

[Sparkss]

I also really like Agmatine as it has ability to be selective towards muscle tissue over adipose.

This actually brings up something that I wanted to ask about. Some time back I remembered someone who used to post rants (on another forum, quite some time ago now) about how GDAs were a waste of money because they were essentially like insulin, non-discriminate over where they funneled the glucose/nutrients and would make every meal like it was a high simple carb one with a corresponding insulin spike (triggering the body to start storing all excess as fat)

Ok, that being said, what are your thoughts about any of the (other of the) "top 5" in terms of selectively feeding the muscles over storing the "disposed glucose" as fat?

Thanks for all of the great info!

 

[kbayne]

This actually brings up something that I wanted to ask about. Some time back I remembered someone who used to post rants (on another forum, quite some time ago now) about how GDAs were a waste of money because they were essentially like insulin, non-discriminate over where they funneled the glucose/nutrients and would make every meal like it was a high simple carb one with a corresponding insulin spike (triggering the body to start storing all excess as fat)

Ok, that being said, what are your thoughts about any of the (other of the) "top 5" in terms of selectively feeding the muscles over storing the "disposed glucose" as fat?

Thanks for all of the great info!

In all honesty, most are not selective to one over the other. Most will increase uptake into muscle and adipose tissue.

Berberine/metformin and TUDCA are the only two with studies backing their ability to shuttle into only muscle tissue.

I stated Agmatine earlier, which as decent data showing selectivity into muscle tissue over adipose.

 

[yelis300]

In all honesty, most are not selective to one over the other. Most will increase uptake into muscle and adipose tissue.

Berberine/metformin and TUDCA are the only two with studies backing their ability to shuttle into only muscle tissue.

I stated Agmatine earlier, which as decent data showing selectivity into muscle tissue over adipose.

Is berberine/metformin the same thing?

What are the benefits of taking a gda that's not selective to muscle tissue? i can't think of a good reason why someone would pick one that's not selective over one that is selective to muscle.

I had no idea Tudca could do that, that's something I need to look into.

 

[BeastFitness]

What does your evaluation protocol entail? Do you use a glucose meter at fixed intervals after a known meal intake? Or just an over "feel" for how well the product works? Or something in between those two extremes?

Thanks!

It was checking fasting blood glucose levels as well as 30 mins and 1 hour post meal

Hey beast, what are your top 5 gda's you've tested? What's your best gda stack in your opinion?

This will completely come down to the individual as I've had clients get better responses off of a combo of berberine/chromium where as others responded better to cinnamon extract and others. Best way to know if buy a glucometer and check

Is berberine/metformin the same thing?

Not at all

 

[Sparkss]

It was checking fasting blood glucose levels as well as 30 mins and 1 hour post meal

The caveat being if you spike insulin it will also clear the blood fast. When I was evaluating carb/sugar blockers I would look for a glucose reading that did not go over a certain mark (if I recall mine was around 120) and did not return to fasting levels too fast. It is hard to tell what glucose level will cause an insulin release, as it is different per person. And again, this was for a blocker, not a GDA though. So how do you know that a GDA is working versus your insulin spiking and clearing the glucose from your blood? (which it is very good at doing, almost like it was made to do so )

What are the benefits of taking a gda that's not selective to muscle tissue? i can't think of a good reason why someone would pick one that's not selective over one that is selective to muscle.

I had the same thought. I would like to hear the experts chime in on this topic as well.

I had no idea Tudca could do that, that's something I need to look into.

Me either, but also interesting that it didn't make it to the top 5 either. Maybe the GDA properties, even if selective for feeding muscles, is weak compared to the others? But even so, it is a "positive double whammy" with the liver protection/health properties.

Is berberine/metformin the same thing?

Not at all

I was also wondering about this. Thanks for clearing that up. I was interested in Berberine, but not Metformin.

I was on a Metformin prescription a couple of years back, to help "reset" my insulin sensitivity. It is rather hard on the kidneys, so after a couple of years I weaned myself off of it, after I felt that my insulin sensitivity had returned to "normal" levels. That was roughly a year ago now, and all evidence suggests that it worked. I knew that it would help clear the glucose from the blood, but not that it did so selectively into muscle. I never used it with that effect in mind though.

 

[ma70]

TUDCA needs to be mega-dosed for GDA properties. Not cost effective.

 

[yelis300]

TUDCA needs to be mega-dosed for GDA properties. Not cost effective.

What's a megadose? Like a gram or more?

 

[ma70]

What's a megadose? Like a gram or more?

1750mg

 

[yelis300]

1750mg

Yikes, yeah that would be too costly. Liver would be feeling fantastic though lol. Oh well, I take it regularly anyway so at least I can get a little more out of it knowing it has some gda properties.

 

[double s]

In for this interesting discussion...

 

[BeastFitness]

1750mg

This…not an effective GDA honestly

 

[yelis300]

Kbayne,

What's with the berberine/metformin? Is there some sort of association between these compounds? You typed it out like they are one in the same. Besides both being muscle selective.

 

[ma70]

Kbayne,

What's with the berberine/metformin? Is there some sort of association between these compounds? You typed it out like they are one in the same. Besides both being muscle selective.

They are often compared. They are not the same...

 

[yelis300]

They are often compared. They are not the same...

I understand they are not the same, I have never thought they were.

 

[ma70]

I understand they are not the same, I have never thought they were.

Yeah, I was directly answering your quotation. I'm sure he put "Berberine/Metformin" together because they're often associated/compared in literature, or at least from what I've seen.

 

[yelis300]

Yeah, I was directly answering your quotation. I'm sure he put "Berberine/Metformin" together because they're often associated/compared in literature, or at least from what I've seen.

I see, must be very similar to each other.

 

[booneman77]

TUDCA needs to be mega-dosed for GDA properties. Not cost effective.

It also can have some negative sides when run in the wrong circumstances (forget exactly what these are tho) iirc

 

[ma70]

It also can have some negative sides when run in the wrong circumstances (forget exactly what these are tho) iirc

You referring to using TUDCA then having some booze? Or something else?

 

[booneman77]

I see, must be very similar to each other.

Mostly just in their effects. Berberine is basically touted as the "non prescription metformin" and actually has been shown to be even more effective.

 

[booneman77]

You referring to using TUDCA then having some booze? Or something else?

Just from a quick search... I forget where I originally read about the potential bad effects (somewhere on AM)

From suppversity:

"Yet despite their metabolic utility bile acids have potent toxic properties and can - at high dosages - actually disrupt the very membranes they help to protext when they are administered at lower doses, therefore their accumulation in the blood and tissue is usually tightly regulated. And while Martinez-Diez et al. have shown that conjugated.bile acids have a very high toxicity threshold compared to their unconjugated cousins (Martinez-Diez. 2000), we are most probably still dealing with one of those classic U-shaped dose-response curves for TUDCA (with no effects at very low, beneficial effects at medium levels and toxicity issues at high levels) which are so ubiquitous in nature and still so difficult to understand for someone acculturated to the typical Western "more is more" mentality (Zinc would be another example, by the way; cf. "Zinc: 15mg is Plenty!"). "

 

[kbayne]

Is berberine/metformin the same thing?

What are the benefits of taking a gda that's not selective to muscle tissue? i can't think of a good reason why someone would pick one that's not selective over one that is selective to muscle.

I had no idea Tudca could do that, that's something I need to look into.

Not the same. I simply just put Berberine/Metformin as they both have similar properties.

You ask a good question when it comes to selectivity. It is a risk reward type situation. Pick and choose when you feel would be the best time to use GDAs.

Kbayne,

What's with the berberine/metformin? Is there some sort of association between these compounds? You typed it out like they are one in the same. Besides both being muscle selective.

Read above. Never mean to put them together as if they were the same.

Just from a quick search... I forget where I originally read about the potential bad effects (somewhere on AM)

From suppversity:

"Yet despite their metabolic utility bile acids have potent toxic properties and can - at high dosages - actually disrupt the very membranes they help to protext when they are administered at lower doses, therefore their accumulation in the blood and tissue is usually tightly regulated. And while Martinez-Diez et al. have shown that conjugated.bile acids have a very high toxicity threshold compared to their unconjugated cousins (Martinez-Diez. 2000), we are most probably still dealing with one of those classic U-shaped dose-response curves for TUDCA (with no effects at very low, beneficial effects at medium levels and toxicity issues at high levels) which are so ubiquitous in nature and still so difficult to understand for someone acculturated to the typical Western "more is more" mentality (Zinc would be another example, by the way; cf. "Zinc: 15mg is Plenty!"). "

No negative issues up to 1750mg when dosed for up to 4 months daily. And I highly doubt anyone here would be running TUDCA at 1750mg per day.

 

[kbayne]

One other thing to be aware of, GDA and nutrient partitioners are two different categories.

GDAs, used to help clear glucose from the system without a large spike and/or rise in insulin.

Nutrient partitioners, used to increase insulin sensitivity and help shuttle the nutrients into muscle tissue (although, most will increase sensitivity in muscle and adipose)

 

[squirtguns89]

Not the same. I simply just put Berberine/Metformin as they both have similar properties.

You ask a good question when it comes to selectivity. It is a risk reward type situation. Pick and choose when you feel would be the best time to use GDAs.
.

what are some scenarios youd play out then..
ex1: cutting, main goal=limiting excess carbs/calories, cutting fat.
-Gymnema Sylvestra
-white kidney bean

ex2:
re-comping/lean gaining or just in general prioritizing muscle mass
-berberine
-r ala
-agmatine

would this be 2 basic examples of gda (ex1) vs nutrient partioning (ex2) usage? what would you obviously change/correct from that?

 

[kbayne]

what are some scenarios youd play out then..
ex1: cutting, main goal=limiting excess carbs/calories, cutting fat.
-Gymnema Sylvestra
-white kidney bean

ex2:
re-comping/lean gaining or just in general prioritizing muscle mass
-berberine
-r ala
-agmatine

would this be 2 basic examples of gda (ex1) vs nutrient partioning (ex2) usage? what would you obviously change/correct from that?

I'd personally just go with a combo of Na-R-ALA + Agmatine + Berberine. Add in Gymnema Sylvestra during a cutting phase.

Need to be smart with dosing Berberine when muscle hypertrophy is the goal though, too much and dosed at wrong times can have negative impacts on lean tissue accrual.

With the above, you'll get the GDA and nutrient partitioning effects, among other health benefits.

 

[yelis300]

Thanks kbayne, putting out some good info in here!