The EC Stack, In Depth.

Driven2lift

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The EC Stack, In Depth.


EC, or ephedrine + caffeine, is one of the best over the counter fat loss options that we have. It is effective to the point it was initially thought to be dangerous. More time and study has only shown the opposite. Athletes: please know that ephedrine is banned by the NCAA, MLB, NFL, PGA, and WNBF.
It was brought to market as a bronchodilator, and in the United States is now only to legal to sell as such (or as prescribed). It is readily available on supplement store shelves elsewhere, such as in Canada.
ECA is quite stimulatory, and by itself Ephedrine is a fairly potent B2 agonist. To potentiate its effects we combine it with a methylxanthine, the most readily available and effective of which is caffeine. The combination of the two is what works the real magic [1]

This is most often taken as: 200mg caffeine +25mg ephedrine
Some people like to still incorporate a baby aspirin with their first dose (The ECA stack) but this is totally unnecessary to get the results. It could be of benefit for those with concerns for side effects by preventing platelet aggregation (and its overall cardiac risk preventative effects) as EC use does liberate a lot of FFAs (fatty free acids) into the bloodstream as well. That said, EC alone should be safe in healthy individuals, this is what most have progressed to using.
For those who have not tried it, know that this kicks a lot harder (stimulant effect) than caffeine alone. Using EC or ECA can and does initially raise blood pressure and heart rate, among other things all reported at this reference [2]

The Results:
We have studies in a variety of test populations now, and with HR and BP being primary concerns one would think it may be unsafe for the obese. But we did that study [4] in obese women for 8 weeks.
Results: the E + C group lost 4.5 kg more body fat and 2.8 kg less fat-free mass (FFM).
It was also safe at 24 weeks in a much larger obese group [3] Also losing statistically greater amounts of FFM.
And again here over the span of 6 months [5]
Results: Mean weight loss was found to be 16.6 kg after 6 months when E+C was provided as an adjuvant to an efficient hypoenergetic diet, which was 3.4 kg higher than in the placebo group.
That is HUGE for popping some pills, and it had no real drawbacks for most. From that same study: ” after 8 weeks blood pressures were indistinguishable from those of the placebo group. E+C has no adverse effect on glucose and lipid metabolism, but has been shown to prevent the decline in HDL-cholesterol caused by weight loss’
Long term EC use can actually lower your blood pressure, secondary to weight loss.
Let’s take a closer look here:



Diagram is from the full text of [5]
Pretty clear-cut that you lose weight faster with EC, this is also demonstrating the reason we always want caffeine to be used in tandem. Combine that with what we know from above that this (as a b-agonist should) can lead to increases of lean mass (or the more likely result of more lean mass preserved, as one would generally be in a calorie deficit set to lose weight overall), EC seems to be a dream come true for anyone looking to lower body fat.
It also has lab indications of positive effects in both WAT/BAT, but these studies were in rats and it’s something we simply know to now always transfer to the human model. [6] I wouldn’t put too much weight on this, but we know we are getting the desired end result regardless.


It is worth noting that effects of the EC stack will be just up stream of cAMP, as well.

It is thought, and actually shown in vivo now to be synergistic to also elevate cAMP by other means while EC is hitting your b-2 receptors. [7] One way to do this as shown there is via Forskolin, which is your best bet at raising cAMP and the most studied ingredient for it.





References:

1- Magkos, F.; Kavouras, S. A. (2004). Caffeine and ephedrine: Physiological, metabolic and performance-enhancing effects. Sports medicine (Auckland, N.Z.) 34 (13): 871–889. doi:10.2165/00007256-200434130-00002. PMID 15487903.
2- "Ephedrine". The American Society of Health-System Pharmacists. Retrieved Apr 2016
3-Toubro S, et al Safety and efficacy of long-term treatment with ephedrine, caffeine and an ephedrine/caffeine mixture . Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. (1993)
4-Astrup A1, Buemann B, Christensen NJ, Toubro S, Thorbek G, Victor OJ, Quaade F. The Effect of ephedrine/caffeine mixture on energy expenditure and body composition in obese women. Metabolism. 1992 Jul;41(7):686-8.
5-Something Obes Res. 1995 Nov;3 Suppl 4:537S-540S. Pharmacological and clinical studies of ephedrine and other thermogenic agonists. Astrup A1, Breum L, Toubro S.
6-J. Himms-Hagen, J. Cui, E. Danforth Jr., D.J. Taatjes, S.S. Lang, B.L. Waters, T.H. Claus Effect of CL-316,243, a thermogenic beta 3-agonist, on energy balance and brown and white adipose tissues in rats Am. J. Physiol., 266 (1994), pp. R1371–R1382
7-Staffan Enoksson', Ellen Blaak' and Peter Arner. Forskolin Potentiates Isoprenaline-Induced Glycerol Output and Local Blood Flow in Human Adipose Tissue in vivo Department of Vascular Surgery, 2Department of Medicine and Research Center, Huddinge University Hospital at Karolinska Institute, S-141 86 Huddinge, Sweden (Received February 18, 1997; Accepted May 13, 1997)
 
Driven2lift

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This is the amount I felt comfortable saying from the existing data on EC that we have.

There is much more potential, and further discussion to be had, and I hope we get some here.
Many things can be implied of EC because of beta agonism effects, but I tried to limit what I presented to study which used Ephedrine itself, and not another beta agonist (as most medical studies do, using clinically viable options)

There are also combinations that merit further study or insight, things in conjunction with this such as T3 can also improve results (well of course, right) but I mean of the EC itself, as higher T3 levels will also improve beta receptor density.

Lots to be said, and if you can tag on a study using ephedrine and something to add here I'll happily edit post one
 

georgetown

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This is an awesome thread, didnt know too much about the benefit of cAMP levels must make stacking with forskolin that much more effective
 

Daycrawler

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I think it's interesting the study didn't not e the negative side effects when trying to get off of EC.

I love EC but if you've used it for a few weeks or even months, it's incredibly hard to cycle off of E.
 

ma70

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I think I remember Mixelflick stating he used EC for 2 years straight (or even more) and he's totally fine. Makes me think that cycling off this stuff isn't necessary, unless there is some psychological effect.
 
fame126

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I think it's interesting the study didn't not e the negative side effects when trying to get off of EC.

I love EC but if you've used it for a few weeks or even months, it's incredibly hard to cycle off of E.
What sides did u experience coming off?
Also, 25e 200c 3x per day?
 
john.patterson

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Great write up, thanks for posting Driven.

I don't notice too much when cycling off of ephedrine personally. Energy levels are a little lower than usual, but its nothing too drastic. What kind of negative sides to you encounter Daycrawler
 
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Throw me into the no negative side category as well. I've used the EC stack tons and I don't get sides coming off, maybe a bit less energy, but nothing significant.
 
Driven2lift

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I've run it 6 months strait with no issue, and regularly low BP/HR


Coming off should be a bit of a drag but not overly hard, I keep caffeine high at first and taper down
 
HIT4ME

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Driven - this is totally awesome. Can you do me a favor? That second chart, where you say ephedrine is just upstream of cAMP - can you explain that chart in words, i.e. - what do you see in that process? Sometimes there is so much going on in those photos, it is hard to see what I should be looking at....
 
jswain34

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, Driven, but i thought that a 10:1 c:e ratio giving us 250 caf and 25 ephedrine was the proper dose? I know coop seemed to think so back in the day. Although, It has been a while since I remember him saying that (and since he's been active on here) so there very well could be a different recommendation now.

And also - proofreading alert - you meant platelet aggregation not aggravation .

Nonetheless the writeup was great and full of info. Good stuff. Gonna go grab some E today now.
 
vujade

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Ive run it for long periods of time over the last 25+ years, with years off in between.
No sides coming off it.

The only downside I ever got from running it for long periods (a couple years straight), was
increased tolerance to where i could eventually handle 100mg at a time.
 
vujade

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Thanks for the info Driven
 
Driven2lift

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, Driven, but i thought that a 10:1 c:e ratio giving us 250 caf and 25 ephedrine was the proper dose? I know coop seemed to think so back in the day. Although, It has been a while since I remember him saying that (and since he's been active on here) so there very well could be a different recommendation now.

And also - proofreading alert - you meant platelet aggregation not aggravation .

Nonetheless the writeup was great and full of info. Good stuff. Gonna go grab some E today now.
Typo fixed, thank you for spotting that sir!

The referenced studies used as little as 200 successfully, (Even Examine uses this as the standard now)

If it is shown that is the best dose by any data I will happily edit the ratio
 
jswain34

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Gotcha, i just thought I remembered another ec thread from at least a year ago where coop said something along the lines where the 10:1 was superior to the 8:1. It's just strange that everywhere else always recommends the 8:1 considering i dont feel like coop would claim something unless he had sufficient data to do so :shrugs:

Will be following along to see if anyone else chimes in. Regardless, EC is gonna be effective either way and i doubt the extra 50mg of caf makes too much of a difference.
 
Driven2lift

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Right, I usually dose 250+ myself

You should get full effect off 200, but if you can easily tolerate more the extra 50 is maybe worth trying

Man I wish Cyrus was still around
 
double s

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As always driven is here with great data. Actually just picked up bronkaid this weekend and used today with caffeine. Felt great.....

IMO with any and all supplements, you should cycle off at one point to let you body come back to homeostasis....just my 2 cents....
 

Daycrawler

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What sides did u experience coming off?
Also, 25e 200c 3x per day?
Yeah, normal dosing.

I mean, it's a stimulant stack so coming off of it was dreadful. You're going to be a bit irritable, tired, and caffeine alone won't seem to do the "trick".

It passes in time but I would've thought a mention of that would make it in.
 

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I've ran it for about a year but I only take it once a day sometimes twice. BP is always normal.
 
double s

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I used to live off the original twin labs ripped fuel back in the early 90's...got me in great shape for my shows.....just started E&C again and forgot how much I love it. Only dose it once a day and will prob take off on the weekends....
 
Driven2lift

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I used to live off the original twin labs ripped fuel back in the early 90's...got me in great shape for my shows.....just started E&C again and forgot how much I love it. Only dose it once a day and will prob take off on the weekends....
Not getting near full effect at 1x a day

But its great to use for an energy kick, or stack with a pre
 
Driven2lift

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Thank you sir!
 
Driven2lift

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Driven - this is totally awesome. Can you do me a favor? That second chart, where you say ephedrine is just upstream of cAMP - can you explain that chart in words, i.e. - what do you see in that process? Sometimes there is so much going on in those photos, it is hard to see what I should be looking at....
Sorry man just caught this.

Maybe supp science section? But it's more physiology and biochem than supp related...


The basic take home is that cAMP gets kicked off requiring ATP, as a beta agonist ephedrine is meeting, and exceeding this requirement.

It could be a limiting factor holding back cAMP, which makes sense as your body is after hemostasis.

Muscle growth is not a priority when available energy stores are low, or we'd all starve.
Add in EC kicking up energy release and it's a different story.



I really wanted to go more in depth on beta agonism, maybe a future article.
 
Driven2lift

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I was also just asked if someone with asthma could use EC

Answer is that I can't recommend it because supps and health concerns don't mix (simply to cover legal bases)

But, outside my associations:

Ephedrine is a bronchodilator. It helps in the same way albuterol would. It is not a replacement but IMO no extra risk either.

That feature correlates to increased aerobic potential, too

And of course EC can effect strength output slightly too (on paper)
 
Jiigzz

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I was also just asked if someone with asthma could use EC

Answer is that I can't recommend it because supps and health concerns don't mix (simply to cover legal bases)

But, outside my associations:

Ephedrine is a bronchodilator. It helps in the same way albuterol would. It is not a replacement but IMO no extra risk either.

That feature correlates to increased aerobic potential, too

And of course EC can effect strength output slightly too (on paper)
Bronkaid/ Primatene are for asthma, so they should be fine.
 
HIT4ME

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Sorry man just caught this.

Maybe supp science section? But it's more physiology and biochem than supp related...


The basic take home is that cAMP gets kicked off requiring ATP, as a beta agonist ephedrine is meeting, and exceeding this requirement.

It could be a limiting factor holding back cAMP, which makes sense as your body is after hemostasis.

Muscle growth is not a priority when available energy stores are low, or we'd all starve.
Add in EC kicking up energy release and it's a different story.



I really wanted to go more in depth on beta agonism, maybe a future article.
Don't be sorry at all man. Thanks for taking the time! Now I have to digest that....
 
Last edited:
jswain34

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Off topic but how the hell do i stop getting email notifications. I've never had this happen before but this thread and one other one keep sending me emails every time someone posts. None of the other threads im subbed to do it either.
 
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Off topic but how the hell do i stop getting email notifications. I've never had this happen before but this thread and one other one keep sending me emails every time someone posts. None of the other threads im subbed to do it either.
There was a reset at the time of an update and you may need to switch your settings on the app and pc to disable
 

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I think I remember Mixelflick stating he used EC for 2 years straight (or even more) and he's totally fine. Makes me think that cycling off this stuff isn't necessary, unless there is some psychological effect.
I've used E/C damn near daily since 1992. AST Research's Dymetradine 25 was the original, 25mg pure ephedrine hcl per tab, nothing else. Subsequently "mini thins" started popping up at gas stations, same mg count at an even better price point. Didn't take long for the general public to find that out, nor the fact the stuff worked.Further (popular) iterations were Ultimate Orange and Ripped Fuel, among others. The herb was superior to the synthetic IMO, as the rise/fall in energy wasn't as drastic. I still have a kilo left of 8% ephedra sinica extract. Just try finding that today! :) I thought I saw where Hi Tech still carried ephedra, but may be mistaken.

One thing I'd like everyone to know: In the U.S., the only real ephedrine left is ephedrine hcl or sulfate kept behind the counter at your local pharmacy (bronkaid and pimitine tablets). Of the two, you want Primitine. They're 12.5mg eph hcl per tab, 200mg of guafenesin (expectorant). And eph hcl is far superior to sulfate IMO. You'll have to sign for it and present your license, but it's well worth it IMO. If you know where to look, you'll also find 30mg ephedrine hcl per tab, though it has to be imported into the U.S.. Doing so can be done legally, provided you're ordering no more than 6 grams/month (may even be 9g, haven't checked the Patriot Act recently). Yep, they severely curtailed your access to ephedrine through the Patriot Act. Nice, huh?

Another warning: Do NOT fall for "Ephedra NEVADENSIS". ZERO ephedrine alkaloids and a complete sham. IF it's out there, you want ephedra SINICA or Sida Cordifolia.

Finally, I've never had a single adverse event from ephedrine/caffeine in all my years of using it. In fact, it improves my HDL levels by an average of 10-15 points, routinely putting me above the top end of the range. Ephedrine/caffeine either in their synthetic or herbal forms are effective and safe when used in recommended dosages. That's not just my opinion, it's been corroborated in studies done at Beth Israel Medical Center, Columbia University and overseas.

My 5 cc's :)
 

ma70

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I've used E/C damn near daily since 1992. AST Research's Dymetradine 25 was the original, 25mg pure ephedrine hcl per tab, nothing else. Subsequently "mini thins" started popping up at gas stations, same mg count at an even better price point. Didn't take long for the general public to find that out, nor the fact the stuff worked.Further (popular) iterations were Ultimate Orange and Ripped Fuel, among others. The herb was superior to the synthetic IMO, as the rise/fall in energy wasn't as drastic. I still have a kilo left of 8% ephedra sinica extract. Just try finding that today! :) I thought I saw where Hi Tech still carried ephedra, but may be mistaken.

One thing I'd like everyone to know: In the U.S., the only real ephedrine left is ephedrine hcl or sulfate kept behind the counter at your local pharmacy (bronkaid and pimitine tablets). Of the two, you want Primitine. They're 12.5mg eph hcl per tab, 200mg of guafenesin (expectorant). And eph hcl is far superior to sulfate IMO. You'll have to sign for it and present your license, but it's well worth it IMO. If you know where to look, you'll also find 30mg ephedrine hcl per tab, though it has to be imported into the U.S.. Doing so can be done legally, provided you're ordering no more than 6 grams/month (may even be 9g, haven't checked the Patriot Act recently). Yep, they severely curtailed your access to ephedrine through the Patriot Act. Nice, huh?

Another warning: Do NOT fall for "Ephedra NEVADENSIS". ZERO ephedrine alkaloids and a complete sham. IF it's out there, you want ephedra SINICA or Sida Cordifolia.

Finally, I've never had a single adverse event from ephedrine/caffeine in all my years of using it. In fact, it improves my HDL levels by an average of 10-15 points, routinely putting me above the top end of the range. Ephedrine/caffeine either in their synthetic or herbal forms are effective and safe when used in recommended dosages. That's not just my opinion, it's been corroborated in studies done at Beth Israel Medical Center, Columbia University and overseas.

My 5 cc's :)
Welcome back! It's been awhile.
 
HIT4ME

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I've used E/C damn near daily since 1992. AST Research's Dymetradine 25 was the original, 25mg pure ephedrine hcl per tab, nothing else. Subsequently "mini thins" started popping up at gas stations, same mg count at an even better price point. Didn't take long for the general public to find that out, nor the fact the stuff worked.Further (popular) iterations were Ultimate Orange and Ripped Fuel, among others. The herb was superior to the synthetic IMO, as the rise/fall in energy wasn't as drastic. I still have a kilo left of 8% ephedra sinica extract. Just try finding that today! :) I thought I saw where Hi Tech still carried ephedra, but may be mistaken.

One thing I'd like everyone to know: In the U.S., the only real ephedrine left is ephedrine hcl or sulfate kept behind the counter at your local pharmacy (bronkaid and pimitine tablets). Of the two, you want Primitine. They're 12.5mg eph hcl per tab, 200mg of guafenesin (expectorant). And eph hcl is far superior to sulfate IMO. You'll have to sign for it and present your license, but it's well worth it IMO. If you know where to look, you'll also find 30mg ephedrine hcl per tab, though it has to be imported into the U.S.. Doing so can be done legally, provided you're ordering no more than 6 grams/month (may even be 9g, haven't checked the Patriot Act recently). Yep, they severely curtailed your access to ephedrine through the Patriot Act. Nice, huh?

Another warning: Do NOT fall for "Ephedra NEVADENSIS". ZERO ephedrine alkaloids and a complete sham. IF it's out there, you want ephedra SINICA or Sida Cordifolia.

Finally, I've never had a single adverse event from ephedrine/caffeine in all my years of using it. In fact, it improves my HDL levels by an average of 10-15 points, routinely putting me above the top end of the range. Ephedrine/caffeine either in their synthetic or herbal forms are effective and safe when used in recommended dosages. That's not just my opinion, it's been corroborated in studies done at Beth Israel Medical Center, Columbia University and overseas.

My 5 cc's :)
When I was in college, I used Lipokinetix. A family friend who was a nurse saw the bottle, didn't have a clue what she was looking at, and saw "ephedrine" and freaked out. She supposedly knew a surgeon at Brigham & Women's Hospital who thought the stuff would destroy your heart. She freaked my parents out good. I printed up 3'' worth of paper with studies from pubmed, etc. that showed this stuff wasn't very good at harming your health. I remember one case where a woman swallowed an ENTIRE bottle of ephedrine fat burning pills in an attempt at suicide. The side effect was temporary psychosis and she survived. There are cases where people used this stuff for depression at enormous doses (they self administered, it worked well, then they built tolerance and added more, and so on) - even at 100's of mgs the people were fine once they came off the stuff. When they hit 500 mg or so, they had some mental issues (psychosis) but it cleared up.

There is also another study where they examined people dying from heart attacks while working out, and compared it to people working out AND using ephedrine who died from heart attacks - since the news made it sound like all these heart attack deaths were people working out and taking ephedrine - and they found that statistically more people died just from working out than from the combination of working out and taking ephedrine.

And when the stuff was available, I know asthmatics that would buy it by the case because it worked better than the inhalers at controlling their symptoms.
 
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I would be curious if any studies/research has been showing on BMR after taking ECA and say, just sitting at your desk. Wonder if any thermogenesis is taking place,
 
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I would be curious if any studies/research has been showing on BMR after taking ECA and say, just sitting at your desk. Wonder if any thermogenesis is taking place,
Estimate is a 3% increase, nothing amazing

Hope we get some data down the road on this
 
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Estimate is a 3% increase, nothing amazing

Hope we get some data down the road on this
It'll have a higher BMR increase than anything you can buy as a dietary supplement today though - I thought I remember 4-5%. It was in an article comparing Clenbuterol IIRC, but I'd have to dig it up.
 
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Haha yes
Regardless of the ways it accomplishes it, fact is this stuff works very well for losing fat mass, these studies all had impressive results
 
Johnybgood

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Great share! I love using as pre workout boost. The the added sweat and intensity it brings to workouts when needed. I do find if taken to long coming off has it sides. That is why I keep the runs short. Again great share for everyone.
 
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Thanks for the great write up!

So, I ran an ECA stack for 3 months and when I cycled off I DID have sides, BUT I don't believe it was attributed to the E but rather the C since I stopped cold turkey. Shouldn't have tried that and should have tapered off as caffeine withdrawal symptoms were a biotchhh. Mainly a severe headache that started at the back of the skull that ran to the forehead and only on one side of my head lol.

Lasted a couple days but other than that I was good.
 
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I'd always keep the caffeine and taper down when coming off EC, though I very rarely cease caffeine
 
Johnybgood

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Thanks for the great write up!

So, I ran an ECA stack for 3 months and when I cycled off I DID have sides, BUT I don't believe it was attributed to the E but rather the C since I stopped cold turkey. Shouldn't have tried that and should have tapered off as caffeine withdrawal symptoms were a biotchhh. Mainly a severe headache that started at the back of the skull that ran to the forehead and only on one side of my head lol.

Lasted a couple days but other than that I was good.
Agreed it's always best to taper down otherwise headaches and or issues sleeping will follow. I think that is why I enjoy as pre workout only or for those days you want to just feel great. My wife is using now. She always has to taper the doses up so slow at beginning otherwise she gets the shakes really bad. It's my fav cutting supp that is simple, cheap and works.
 
The_Old_Guy

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The data on Examine says that unlike Clen, Ephedrine (due to super-short half life) doesn't cause receptor downgrade - and there are studies going up to 1yr(?) with no ill effects.
 
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True ECA or at least EC, coupled with good BCAA Intra with some Citrulline...for me, excellent stack...just my 2 cents..
 
TrainerTone

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This thread has me thinking about hopping on the EC stack. Anybody have any loss of libido while on this?? Just curious
 
vujade

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This thread has me thinking about hopping on the EC stack. Anybody have any loss of libido while on this??
Just curious
Doesn't really negatively effect libido, but can effect climax and sometimes also inhibit erections in higher doses.
 
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Never been an issue for me
 

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The data on Examine says that unlike Clen, Ephedrine (due to super-short half life) doesn't cause receptor downgrade - and there are studies going up to 1yr(?) with no ill effects.
Quite true.

But it's not just its short half life - it's a poor fit at the receptor (in comparison to clen), which fits it like a glove.
 

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