Agmatine

[BeastFitness]

AGMATINE
Agmatine is one of my personal favorite peri-workout nitric oxide "pump focused" ingredients that I utilize in combination with other nutrient facilitators and performance enhancers. Agmatine is a metabolite of L-Arginine and provides much more than clear ergogenic effects. Agmatine also:

-increase cognitive health
-protects the brain from toxins and strokes
-possesses some cardiovascular health benefits
-fairly good nutrient partitioner as it to increases skeletal muscle glucose uptake via GLUT4 mRNA up-regulation.

For our purposes as using it preworkout and/or intraworkout, it works by inhibiting nitric oxide synthase enzymes, there by allowing up-regulated levels of nitric oxide. There are many more mechanisms involved but most people will get bored with the details 1-3 grams preworkout and/or intraworkout seems to be the sweet spot for a lot of people and will depend if other pump ingredients are utilized.


Endogenous opiates do not influence glucose and lipid metabolism in rat adipocytes. - PubMed - NCBI
Agmatine affects glomerular filtration via a nitric oxide synthase-dependent mechanism. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of aging on agmatine levels in memory-associated brain structures. - PubMed - NCBI
Agmatine exerts anticonvulsant effect in mice: modulation by alpha 2-adrenoceptors and nitric oxide. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[georgetown]

Any info on the negatives of combining with citrulline?

 

[VaughnTrue]

I've been a huge fan for a long time now. IFN was the first company to use it in a pre-workout with Hemavol back in 2009 I think it was.

anything over 1.5g I don't suggest however, can cause serious stomach issues for some as well as very low blood sugar

 

[BamBam0319]

I've been a huge fan for a long time now. IFN was the first company to use it in a pre-workout with Hemavol back in 2009 I think it was.

anything over 1.5g I don't suggest however, can cause serious stomach issues for some as well as very low blood sugar

Agreed, plus you really don't need any more than 1-1.5g to achieve the effects you want from it. I personally don't see any added benefit at 1.5g compared to 1.


Agmatine is probably one of my favorite supplement ingredients ever. A staple for sure.

 

[BeastFitness]

Any info on the negatives of combining with citrulline?

Only positives in my experience as well as many others

I've been a huge fan for a long time now. IFN was the first company to use it in a pre-workout with Hemavol back in 2009 I think it was.

anything over 1.5g I don't suggest however, can cause serious stomach issues for some as well as very low blood sugar

Agreed, plus you really don't need any more than 1-1.5g to achieve the effects you want from it. I personally don't see any added benefit at 1.5g compared to 1.


Agmatine is probably one of my favorite supplement ingredients ever. A staple for sure.

Completely depends on the person but glad you pointed this out!

 

[Quads_of_Stee]

definitely agree with everything you wrote. I used to love taking bulk agmatine but stopped recently due to inconsistency with getting in and out of the gym (soon to be at least). Agmatine is amazing when used for a pre-workout meal IMO because it helps with the nutrient partitioning as well as providing a good nitric oxide boost for that super pump (carbs+NO3). I usually take bulk agmatine but switched over to SlinMax(which also contains agmatine) recently because I am trying to see how high I can push calories without gaining fat

 

[BeastFitness]

definitely agree with everything you wrote. I used to love taking bulk agmatine but stopped recently due to inconsistency with getting in and out of the gym (soon to be at least). Agmatine is amazing when used for a pre-workout meal IMO because it helps with the nutrient partitioning as well as providing a good nitric oxide boost for that super pump (carbs+NO3). I usually take bulk agmatine but switched over to SlinMax(which also contains agmatine) recently because I am trying to see how high I can push calories without gaining fat

Definitely let me know how much you can get away with!

I've seen the nutrient partitioning effect vary drastically from person to person

 

[rodefeeh]

subbed for any more discussion, I have some on the way, excited to try it out

 

[heavylifter33]

Long time user of Agmatine, pretty sure first time i used it was when i saw it in an iForce product. After that i always bought bulk SNS because it was just easier to add it to my favorite pre workouts. Awesome supplement, but be careful not to have too many things for pump because it will get painful lol. One thing i never do is dose Agmatine when i'm using ArA. The pumps are soooooo painful.

 

[criticalbench]

Been using agmatine since hemavol came out.. I use bulk now to upon waking. Love agmatine.

 

[BeastFitness]

Been using agmatine since hemavol came out.. I use bulk now to upon waking. Love agmatine.

Bulk agmatine is so cheap idk why anyone wouldn't use it!

 

[booneman77]

Bulk agmatine is so cheap idk why anyone wouldn't use it!

So much this. Next to creatine it's pretty much pennies.

 

[rodefeeh]

I have seen the agmatine light!

 

[HIT4ME]

Agmatine has a TON of research behind it. There are some studies recently showing arginine deficiency may be a cause of Alzheimer's and dementia...and since arginine doesn't cross the BBB and Agmatine does, and Agmatine does a lot of what arginine does, it would make sense that it may help. And, surprise, preliminary studies show it does improve dementia and Alzheimer's.

It also protects against ischaemic attacks, as mentioned above.

And it improves the effectiveness of SSRIs and pain killers and other drugs.

The "pump" thing is the least studied aspect of this compound.

 

[BeastFitness]

Agmatine does have so many benefits its awesome!!

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Agmatine has a TON of research behind it. There are some studies recently showing arginine deficiency may be a cause of Alzheimer's and dementia...and since arginine doesn't cross the BBB and Agmatine does, and Agmatine does a lot of what arginine does, it would make sense that it may help. And, surprise, preliminary studies show it does improve dementia and Alzheimer's.

It also protects against ischaemic attacks, as mentioned above.

And it improves the effectiveness of SSRIs and pain killers and other drugs.

The "pump" thing is the least studied aspect of this compound.

Agmatine is awesome. I haven't been taking it recently because I've been taking nitrates + glycerol for pumps (and anything beyond that is pointless IMO; same for when I'm taking citrulline and agmatine). I'm also taking some great supplements for joint support (AKBA, Microlactin, and bromelain), but I do feel that agmatine helps with my lower back pain. I tore a ligament in my lower back wrestling in high school, and a few years later, it's healed fine, but still gets tight at times. So I'd have a heavy and a light day for squats each week. I'd only take agmatine on my light days (for a pump), and I started to notice, hell, 225-250lbs feels lighter and better on my back on my light days than my heavy days on a regular basis. After a bit of thinking, I researched agmatine and saw that it can help with lumber-disk related nerve pain in humans. Now, I'm not sure if any of the issues I'm having are nerve related, but I noticed the effects first and then looked for the cause.

Dietary agmatine sulfate is safe and efficacious treatment for alleviating pain and improving quality of life in lumbar disc-associated radiculopathy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20447305

There are animal studies showing pain relief as well:

We report here that AG, exogenously administered to rodents, decreased hyperalgesia accompanying inflammation, normalized the mechanical hypersensitivity (allodynia/hyperalgesia) produced by chemical or mechanical nerve injury, and reduced autotomy-like behavior and lesion size after excitotoxic spinal cord injury.

The evidence suggests a unique antiplasticity and neuroprotective role for AG in processes underlying persistent pain and neuronal injury.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27068/

We conclude that agmatine, an endogenous substance derived from arginine, can modulate both acute and chronic pain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15028574

With all of that in mind (and that I wasn't even aware of these benefits of agmatine until I started to notice a difference), that I have pretty good anecdotal evidence and the research confirms it, perhaps there is something to agmatine and pain.

 

[georgetown]

Agmatine is awesome. I haven't been taking it recently because I've been taking nitrates + glycerol for pumps (and anything beyond that is pointless IMO; same for when I'm taking citrulline and agmatine). I'm also taking some great supplements for joint support (AKBA, Microlactin, and bromelain), but I do feel that agmatine helps with my lower back pain. I tore a ligament in my lower back wrestling in high school, and a few years later, it's healed fine, but still gets tight at times. So I'd have a heavy and a light day for squats each week. I'd only take agmatine on my light days (for a pump), and I started to notice, hell, 225-250lbs feels lighter and better on my back on my light days than my heavy days on a regular basis. After a bit of thinking, I researched agmatine and saw that it can help with lumber-disk related nerve pain in humans. Now, I'm not sure if any of the issues I'm having are nerve related, but I noticed the effects first and then looked for the cause.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20447305

There are animal studies showing pain relief as well:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27068/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15028574

With all of that in mind (and that I wasn't even aware of these benefits of agmatine until I started to notice a difference), that I have pretty good anecdotal evidence and the research confirms it, perhaps there is something to agmatine and pain.

What do you mean here? You wouldn't take agmatine, glycerol,citrulline, and nitrates together?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

What do you mean here? You wouldn't take agmatine, glycerol,citrulline, and nitrates together?

It's not that I wouldn't, or there's anything wrong with it, I just feel that it's past the point of diminishing returns. If a supplement has them all, that's fine, but if I'm taking a good dose of nitrates and glycerol, I get very good endurance and don't really need to spend more money adding citrulline and/or agmatine to it, just like I don't have to add extra nitrates to s pre workout if I'm taking a full dose of citrulline and agmatine. It's not bad, it's just a waste of supplements and/or money IMO to take multiple effective and fully dosed pump products. I'd rather not have to spend money as often, with the supplements I have lasting longer. For example, I've been taking 1 scoop CreMax XT (glycerol and taurine) + 1 scoop Glycergrow 2 (more glycerol and taurine) pre workout. Between those two, I have a lot of glycerol and taurine. I also add 5-6 caps of Potassium Nitrate to that. That's plenty of pumps for me. I don't see a need to add 8g citrulline Malate or 1g agmatine to that really. And if I was taking citrulline and agmatine, I wouldn't need to take the nitrates. Just like when I'm taking HMB I don't take HICA; I don't think it's worth the cost at that time.

 

[ucheoma]

what product do you get your KNO3 from?

 

[VaughnTrue]

what product do you get your KNO3 from?

iForce Potassium Nitrate
Hemavo2 Max (1g KNO3/srv)

I believe Performax just came out with one that has KNO3 as well

 

[ucheoma]

iForce Potassium Nitrate
Hemavo2 Max (1g KNO3/srv)

I believe Performax just came out with one that has KNO3 as well

Thanks. Am aware of iForce Potassium Nitrate and Hemavo2 Max but would like muscleupcrohn to chime in in case he's using something else.

 

[georgetown]

It's not that I wouldn't, or there's anything wrong with it, I just feel that it's past the point of diminishing returns. If a supplement has them all, that's fine, but if I'm taking a good dose of nitrates and glycerol, I get very good endurance and don't really need to spend more money adding citrulline and/or agmatine to it, just like I don't have to add extra nitrates to s pre workout if I'm taking a full dose of citrulline and agmatine. It's not bad, it's just a waste of supplements and/or money IMO to take multiple effective and fully dosed pump products. I'd rather not have to spend money as often, with the supplements I have lasting longer. For example, I've been taking 1 scoop CreMax XT (glycerol and taurine) + 1 scoop Glycergrow 2 (more glycerol and taurine) pre workout. Between those two, I have a lot of glycerol and taurine. I also add 5-6 caps of Potassium Nitrate to that. That's plenty of pumps for me. I don't see a need to add 8g citrulline Malate or 1g agmatine to that really. And if I was taking citrulline and agmatine, I wouldn't need to take the nitrates. Just like when I'm taking HMB I don't take HICA; I don't think it's worth the cost at that time.

I figured, just didnt know if it was counterproductive

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Thanks. Am aware of iForce Potassium Nitrate and Hemavo2 Max but would like muscleupcrohn to chime in in case he's using something else.

Right now, this is my pre-workout stack:

1 scoop CreMax XT
1 scoop Glycergrow 2
6 caps iForce Potassium Nitrate
3 tbsp Fearn Lecithin Granules (PA)
3g HMB-CA Powder

Today's serving finished my bottle of Potassium Nitrate, so I'll be replacing it with citrulline (4g) or citrulline malate (6-8g) + 1g agmatine. I don't see a need to take a high dose of nitrates AND citrulline + agmatine. I've taken High Volume, which has all 3, but I really didn't notice anything extra compared to just two of the three really. That's nothing against HV, since it's still affordable, and many people could get away with taking less than a full dose because of this, but there's a point of diminishing returns with everything really. Things like glycerol and taurine work differently for a pump than things like citrulline and/or nitrates, so they go well together IMO, but there's only so much benefit you'll get from NO-related pre-workout pump products. I also find that PA (lecithin granules) help with muscle fullness, so there's that as well.

 

[georgetown]

muscleupcrohn what did you start at for a dosage of potassium nitrate pills and when did you bump up to 6 pills?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

muscleupchron what did you start at for a dosage of potassium nitrate pills and when did you bump up to 6 pills?

I think I started with 2 caps the first time, just to assess tolerance (always a good idea). Then I went up to 4 caps for a few workouts, then I decided to go up to 6 caps. I think I remember seeing some people saying they liked 5-6, and it's not an outrageous dose anyway, so I figured I'd go for it. I've had that bottle of Potassium Nitrate for a while, but didn't use it much since I didn't notice anything else when taking it in addition to 4g citrulline and 1g agmatine, but I decided to change it up and go with just the nitrates instead for a little while to finish up the bottle. Either one works quite well IMO. I've been doing some high rep benching to start my chest workouts recently, and it's been feeling good.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

sub

 

[ucheoma]

I think I started with 2 caps the first time, just to assess tolerance (always a good idea). Then I went up to 4 caps for a few workouts, then I decided to go up to 6 caps. I think I remember seeing some people saying they liked 5-6, and it's not an outrageous dose anyway, so I figured I'd go for it. I've had that bottle of Potassium Nitrate for a while, but didn't use it much since I didn't notice anything else when taking it in addition to 4g citrulline and 1g agmatine, but I decided to change it up and go with just the nitrates instead for a little while to finish up the bottle. Either one works quite well IMO. I've been doing some high rep benching to start my chest workouts recently, and it's been feeling good.

Have you tried Olympus labs hydro? This seems to have more caps plus added glycerol?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Have you tried Olympus labs hydro? This seems to have more caps plus added glycerol?

I haven't tried it. Since CreMax XT is a staple for me, there's really enough glycerol and taurine for me from that alone, but more glycerol is always nice. If it's available at a better price than other nitrate sources when I need more, I'll probably pick some up.

 

[Daycrawler]

Agmatine is good stuff. Big fan of it. Iirc Joey did a write up on it years ago as well

 

[booneman77]

I figured, just didnt know if it was counterproductive

Could actually lower bp too much ha. Nitrates alone can do this if dosed too high or a person who already had lower bp

 

[georgetown]

Could actually lower bp too much ha. Nitrates alone can do this if dosed too high or a person who already had lower bp

Talking pump wise but i do care about the health aspect too haha

 

[rodefeeh]

I had some Metabolic Nutrition E.S.P., 6g CM and my first dose of 1g AgmaPure for shoulder/arm day. A definite increase in pump even being low carbs. It felt a boost in the nootropic experience from E.S.P. I saw some performance increase even on top of the 6g CM. I seemed to be breathing easier too. I was doing a lot of supersets with 45 sec rest and recovery was better. I'm sold!

 

[Daycrawler]

I had some Metabolic Nutrition E.S.P., 6g CM and my first dose of 1g AgmaPure for shoulder/arm day. A definite increase in pump even being low carbs. It felt a boost in the nootropic experience from E.S.P. I saw some performance increase even on top of the 6g CM. I seemed to be breathing easier too. I was doing a lot of supersets with 45 sec rest and recovery was better. I'm sold!

SNS CitMal at 6g and 500mg-1g of Agmatine is bliss

 

[luelinks]

Bulk agmatine is so cheap idk why anyone wouldn't use it!

The better question is it is so cheap and works so well, why don't all pre-workout supplements use them.

 

[ELROCK]

So much this. Next to creatine it's pretty much pennies.

I love agmatime for its health benefits in and out of the gym.

Powder agmatime is cheap, but it has been somewhat tough to find cheap agmatime in capsule form. The price seems to really jump on this particular ingredient when capped.

 

[booneman77]

I love agmatime for its health benefits in and out of the gym.

Powder agmatime is cheap, but it has been somewhat tough to find cheap agmatime in capsule form. The price seems to really jump on this particular ingredient when capped.

SNS agmatine is on sale all the time and barely more expensive than the powder

 

[Justlooking5]

Been taking it for about a week consistently and pre-workout only for 1-2 weeks prior to that. Seems like really good stuff so far. I think I've noticed along with the excellent pump effect (gives a bit of that "chemical" look actually) improved mood (interacts with MAO and +dopamine/epinepherine), better sleep, leaning effect, and as mentioned excellent pumps in the gym and outside as well. One of the better supps I've tried actually.

 

[jarrellt67]

Agmatine is awesome. I haven't been taking it recently because I've been taking nitrates + glycerol for pumps (and anything beyond that is pointless IMO; same for when I'm taking citrulline and agmatine). I'm also taking some great supplements for joint support (AKBA, Microlactin, and bromelain), but I do feel that agmatine helps with my lower back pain. I tore a ligament in my lower back wrestling in high school, and a few years later, it's healed fine, but still gets tight at times. So I'd have a heavy and a light day for squats each week. I'd only take agmatine on my light days (for a pump), and I started to notice, hell, 225-250lbs feels lighter and better on my back on my light days than my heavy days on a regular basis. After a bit of thinking, I researched agmatine and saw that it can help with lumber-disk related nerve pain in humans. Now, I'm not sure if any of the issues I'm having are nerve related, but I noticed the effects first and then looked for the cause.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20447305

There are animal studies showing pain relief as well:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27068/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15028574

With all of that in mind (and that I wasn't even aware of these benefits of agmatine until I started to notice a difference), that I have pretty good anecdotal evidence and the research confirms it, perhaps there is something to agmatine and pain.

One thing I've noticed recently is that for me, agmatine seems to reduce back pain when taken in low doses (250 mg, once or twice each day) but increases my back pain if taking higher doses (1 g +). In your research on agmatine, did you see anything about lower doses being more effective for pain? There does seem to be a lot mentioning that for depression/anxiety you shouldn't take more than 6.4 mg/kg per day...it seems that's also my upper limit for pain benefits (unless things change over time with chronic dosing).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

One thing I've noticed recently is that for me, agmatine seems to reduce back pain when taken in low doses (250 mg, once or twice each day) but increases my back pain if taking higher doses (1 g +). In your research on agmatine, did you see anything about lower doses being more effective for pain? There does seem to be a lot mentioning that for depression/anxiety you shouldn't take more than 6.4 mg/kg per day...it seems that's also my upper limit for pain benefits (unless things change over time with chronic dosing).

Hmm... the study that noted reductions in lumbar-disk related nerve pain used "1.335 g/day agmatine sulfate for 10 days, 2.670 g/day for 10 days, 3.560 g/day for 10 days, and 3.560 g/day for 21 days."

I haven't seen a similar response curve for pain as for potential cognitive effects, but there is also a study that noted anti-depressive effects with 2-3g/day agmatine.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8895125&fileId=S1601521512000201

In animal studies (which is where the 6.4 mg/kg comes from if I recall), doses ranging from the human equivalent of 1.6-16 mg/kg have been shown to reduce pain. That comes out to a dose of ~100-1000mg, and a dose-dependent response was noted.

If lower doses work for you, then I'd stick with it, as everyone is a bit different I suppose.

 

[jarrellt67]

Hmm... the study that noted reductions in lumbar-disk related nerve pain used "1.335 g/day agmatine sulfate for 10 days, 2.670 g/day for 10 days, 3.560 g/day for 10 days, and 3.560 g/day for 21 days."

I haven't seen a similar response curve for pain as for potential cognitive effects, but there is also a study that noted anti-depressive effects with 2-3g/day agmatine.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8895125&fileId=S1601521512000201

In animal studies (which is where the 6.4 mg/kg comes from if I recall), doses ranging from the human equivalent of 1.6-16 mg/kg have been shown to reduce pain. That comes out to a dose of ~100-1000mg, and a dose-dependent response was noted.

If lower doses work for you, then I'd stick with it, as everyone is a bit different I suppose.

I'm assuming it was a misprint in the study you linked as they mention doses of 2-3 mg/day (not grams/day) were used. I can't imagine them using doses that low...

Yeah, I think I'll stick with 500 mg (and no more than 1 g) of agmatine each day. The higher doses make me sleepy anyway. So, lower is better for that too. Thank you for the input.

edit: as a side note, I can't imagine using 3.56 grams of agmatine each day. Doses of even 1 gram give me bad stomach pain and gas. My wife would kick me out of the bedroom if I took doses that large.

 

[SBIK]

Sorry to bump an old thread.

Is there any negatives to using Agmatine with Cialis. Maybe L-cit too?

 

[EMG81]

Not a doctor, but it sure hasn't bothered me.

 

[cheftepesh1]

Couldn't see a reason why it should be. Only if vasodilators are an issue.

 

[PeteRyde]

Agmatine may reduce blood pressure as does cialis but not likely an issue if you don't have really low blood pressure.