Vitamin K2-M4 for increased Testosterone (IME better than TA/ZMA/Boron etc.?)

[Justlooking5]

Edit update 5/10/17: I wrote this post originally in 2015, about a year ago. I recently got bloodwork while taking a multi that included 100mcg of a K2/K7 blend. My testosterone levels came back at 369 ng/dl, the lowest it's ever tested. K2 seems to do something but I don't think it's an effective testosterone booster, at least at the 100mcg/day dose. I have hypogonadism from AAS use though so it may affect me differently. I was also taking high dose Vitamin D, probiotics, high sat fat diet, tocotrienols (like in toco 8) at this time, and doing periodic IF, and my test levels were still tanked.


Hello all. I thought I'd share my experiences with trying vitamin K2-MK4 to increase testosterone.

A little background: I am 33 years old and have been bodybuilding since age 17, with some off periods. I first used gear at about 19 and did 4 total major cycles (e.g., test/dbol) between 19 and 25. After my last cycle at age 25 I probably cycled too long and did not come off correctly (bought into bull**** that ATD was effective to restore HPTA instead of clomid) and definitely wound up with suppressed HPTA.

At age 28 I got my test levels checked and they came back at 390, which is VERY low (see it as lower than average for all but the 85 y/o):
http://testosteroneandyou.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/testosterone-by-age.jpg

I tried clomid rx'ed by my urologist which pushed my levels up to about 1,100, but upon cessation of clomid they dropped back to 400. For a few years I didn't address it but this year I've been trying to address it more actively now that I'm bodybuilding again. So far I have tried Tongkat Ali (2-800mg), Boron (3-12mg), and ZMA (standard dose), along with high dose vitamin D.


tldr : I did several cycles of gear age 19-25, did not come off last cycle correctly due to believing hype about ATD/being irresponsible, wound up with suppressed HPTA with test levels at the average of an 85 y/o (390) at age 28. Have been trying to address it this past year with several supps including TA/ZMA/Boron.


Last week after some research I decided to try K2, specifically the MK4 variant (menaquinone-4). This was based on research with (yes) wistar rats showing K2-MK4 increased total testosterone output from the testes by more than 70%, in a manner other than by stimulating LH or suppressing estrogen .

Additionally, in vitro, rat testicular cells incubated with M4 produced testosterone in a manner that was dose-dependent on the amount of M4 incubated.

Interestingly, these profound increases in testosterone production were not mediated by changes in luteinizing hormone concentration...

The most likely explanation, according to Asagi et al., for the profound effects MK4 has on the output (its like an after-burner for your testes ;-) of testosterone would be c-AMP mediated.

1g of Vitamin K2 (MK-4) Could Boost Your Testosterone Levels by More Than +50% - At Least, This is What the Results of a Recent Rodent Study Would Suggest. - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

To me that the increase in total test is not mediated by increased LH means it may combine very well with a supplement that DOES increase LH and/or free testosterone such as TA

K2 also has other reported benefits on Vitamin D absorption, joint health (very noticeable to me), energy (very noticeable), cardiovascular health, bone health, etc.

Anecdotally I have been taking MK4 at 5-10mg for one week, and my preliminary belief is that it may be a more effective testosterone enhancing supplement (for me at least) than even 800mg TA w/ ZMA, or boron, etc.

I have really noticed a difference in several areas I associate with increased testosterone since starting MK4 (though I can't be sure it is due to increased test (maybe M4 just increases energy/aggression in another way, etc.):

Things I've noticed after one week:

-Energy increase (very noticeable)
-Feel more "robust" and powerful
-Deeper more powerful voice (very noticeable, more than from TA, ZMA, etc.)
-Leaner all over
-More defined/harder muscles, skin seems thinner
-Possible mild strength increase though I have resumed training this week after a few week break so hard to say
-More assertive / dominant behavior (i.e., someone was doing something obnoxious at the gym near where I was training and I (politely) confronted them about it whereas before I have ignored it/not said anything)
-I get a mild pump (pretty sure not placebo but maybe, a bit like the pump from PA) after taking it
-Not a major change in sex drive but sex drive is good
-Some morning erections but no issues with getting erections and erection quality is good
-GREAT joint benefits. I haven't had sore joints in the past few days especially, whereas I sometimes had been having knee and back soreness from sitting too long. Also, my joints have been popping/loosening (in a pleasant way) more in the past few days, which other people have observed, and no elbow soreness during or after training when doing overhead dumbbell extensions

Anyway, it feels to me like my test levels are higher, or at a minimum I'm getting many of the benefits of increased test. I WILL be getting a blood level check done sometime in the next few months, but I am rather busy with some school application stuff right now and will have to deal with that after.

*Also, and a caveat, several people have reported a "face widening" effect from taking vitamin K2


https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/wider-face-after-using-vitamin-k.4188/page-6
(guy's pic on first post on that page)

And check out his muscle definition in these pics:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/img_8312-jpg.2249/

To me it looks like his face got bulkier with better muscle tone, the way increased test will do (similar to this guy who is on test replacement):
http://40.media.tumblr.com/3d7355fbdce3f0013918a1321c80b405/tumblr_n9ldq5Fet41qguqqao1_500.jpg

Another thread:
vitamin mk4 induce skull growth? - Page 2 | Mark's Daily Apple Health and Fitness Forum

I'm not entirely sure what this is about, but several people have reported it. My optimistic explanation is that M4 is increasing their testosterone to the point where they are seeing noticeable changes in facial features, muscle definition, etc.

Another possibility is due to its bone-building effects which could be concerning/possibly more permanent:
Protecting Bone And Arterial Health With Vitamin K2 - Life Extension

Personally, after a week my face does look a little more full, but not in a way that makes me think substantial bone changes have occurred (implausible after a week anyway), but I'm going to continue to monitor it and probably take weekly pics.

Anyway, synopsis is I think MK4 may work better for meaningfully boosting testosterone or at least boost several things associated w/ higher test (energy, aggression, body comp) (for me at least, n=1) than even a combination of 100:1 TA at 800mg and nightly ZMA.

Thoughts/experiences?

 

[BlockBuilder]

Great another thing I'm going to spend money on lol

 

[Justlooking5]

Lol, I would encourage at least giving it a try if the whole face widening reports thing isn't dissuasive. The brand I used (I won't name it because I'm not a supp rep) is just a mainstream brand with good reviews. It is important to get the M4 variant (not M7) as this is what was used in the studies. It can be found at amazon, I got it at my local vitmain shop. I took 10mg x 3 days with a meal and now am taking 5mg. It's about 17 bucks for 2 months at this dose.

 

[georgetown]

How was tongkat for you? Ever get any bloods with that or the others?

 

[alwaysfirst]

I'm interested to hear more about this

 

[alwaysfirst]

Lol, I would encourage at least giving it a try if the whole face widening reports thing isn't dissuasive. The brand I used (I won't name it because I'm not a supp rep) is just a mainstream brand with good reviews. It is important to get the M4 variant (not M7) as this is what was used in the studies. It can be found at amazon, I got it at my local vitmain shop. I took 10mg x 3 days with a meal and now am taking 5mg. It's about 17 bucks a month at this dose.

I found 15mg pills of K2-MK4, can I just do 1 pill a day?

 

[TheIronAsylum]

sounds placeboish

 

[JDybya]

K2 has a ton of general health benefits, many of which relate to fat and cholesterol utilization. I can imagine a link to test for sure. But would think that it would take some time to get such benefits.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

K2 guards against Hypercalcemia with Vitamin D supplementation, plus a whole host of other general health benefits as mentioned above - so I mean, why not take it (I take LEF Super-K). But as far as Test goes, taking your 380ng/dl reading, and your 50% Increase in rat literature - you'd add what, 195 points? Compared to Clomid's 700 points? Of course it dropped when you stopped Clomid - but if you stopped K2, it'll drop as well (assuming it works). Why not just try to get on TRT? You are a candidate it seems?

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

K2 guards against Hypercalcemia with Vitamin D supplementation, plus a whole host of other general health benefits as mentioned above - so I mean, why not take it (I take LEF Super-K). But as far as Test goes, taking your 380ng/dl reading, and your 50% Increase in rat literature - you'd add what, 195 points? Compared to Clomid's 700 points? Of course it dropped when you stopped Clomid - but if you stopped K2, it'll drop as well (assuming it works). Why not just try to get on TRT? You are a candidate it seems?

Some people would rather expend more natural routes i assume.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

High dose of Vitamin D? How high? I take 7,000 IU daily with vitamin k but i just went and bought k2-mk4 after researching. Look into Butea Superba, and E. Ulmoides, also Stinging Nettle root. All staples to my T-boosting stack that i use after PCT so that when im off clomid i can try to get my t to stick at a higher a number instead of just plummeting.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Also im surprised that being such a young age you didnt have an easier time bouncing back.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Also how long was your last cycle?

 

[USPlabsRep]

sounds placeboish

here is some research we've done..

Why no MK-4?
First, vitamin K1, the vitamer found in plants is less likely to be consumed in the diet if one isn’t consuming a diet which has sufficient intake of vegetables. MK-4, on the other hand is commonly consumed in a typical diet, and even in diets of those who don’t consume a proper diet. For example, MK-4 is found at concentrations of 10.6 mcg per 100 grams of chicken nuggets. It’s also found in cheddar cheese and whole fried eggs at 10.2 and 9 mcg/100 grams, respectively. Barbecued chicken contains around 22.1 mcg/100 grams.

Elder SJ, Haytowitz DB, Howe J, et al. Vitamin k contents of meat, dairy, and fast food in the U.S. Diet. J Agric Food Chem. 2006 Jan 25;54(2):463-467

No Relevant Data Regarding Testosterone Production

Some manufacturers have begun using MK-4 as a source of vitamin K, claiming it may help boost testosterone levels in men based upon a study in rats. The problem is that the dose used in the study would be the equivalent of a 70 kg human consuming 851 mg per day. No multivitamin product on the market would contain sufficient quantities for this to be feasible in humans. In addition, the study required in vitro concentrations in the high micromolar range, whereas human bioavailability studies failed to show any detectable level of MK-4 after a 420 mcg dose was consumed.

Ito A, Shirakawa H, Takumi N, et al. Menaquinone-4 enhances testosterone production in rats and testis-derived tumor cells. Lipids Health Dis. 2011 Sep 13;10:158
Sato T, Schurgers LJ, Uenishi K. Comparison of menaquinone-4 and menaquinone-7 bioavailability in healthy women. Nutr J. 2012 Nov12;11:93

 

[BlockBuilder]

High dose of Vitamin D? How high? I take 7,000 IU daily with vitamin k but i just went and bought k2-mk4 after researching. Look into Butea Superba, and E. Ulmoides, also Stinging Nettle root. All staples to my T-boosting stack that i use after PCT so that when im off clomid i can try to get my t to stick at a higher a number instead of just plummeting.

7000iu? I only take roughly 3200iu. At what point can too much vitamin d supplementation be dangerous? I'm pretty tan and get adequate amounts of sun here in florida

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

7000iu? I only take roughly 3200iu. At what point can too much vitamin d supplementation be dangerous? I'm pretty tan and get adequate amounts of sun here in florida

I haven't gotten much sunshine in months its been a long winter for NY, also i work in doors in trading firm 8 hours a day. Also i've seen that 10k IU ed was safe for up to 3 months, im not going to keep it THAT high for long, just until summer comes around.

I also used a transdermal Vitamin D that i apply to my Alpha area as i've read many studies that vitamin d applied directly to your testes increases t production 200% opposed to systemic Vit D

 

[alwaysfirst]

7000iu? I only take roughly 3200iu. At what point can too much vitamin d supplementation be dangerous? I'm pretty tan and get adequate amounts of sun here in florida

I been taking D at 10000 iu's for years, my Dr told me it's good, and my blood tests comes back looking great.

 

[Justlooking5]

K2 guards against Hypercalcemia with Vitamin D supplementation, plus a whole host of other general health benefits as mentioned above - so I mean, why not take it (I take LEF Super-K). But as far as Test goes, taking your 380ng/dl reading, and your 50% Increase in rat literature - you'd add what, 195 points? Compared to Clomid's 700 points? Of course it dropped when you stopped Clomid - but if you stopped K2, it'll drop as well (assuming it works). Why not just try to get on TRT? You are a candidate it seems?

Well, I have thought of TRT, but it's permanent and possibly expensive. I'd like to see if I can get my levels up to 6-800 naturally, though if I continue to have low test in the next 1-2 years despite diet/training/supps I'll start seriously considering it.

Also, remember the 390 number was years ago, when I wasn't bodybuilding, during a period where I was very stressed, and probably was eating a low saturated fat/high polyunsaturated fat diet. I also had low vitamin D when tested at the same time as my test levels were checked.
(BTW, as an aside, after my initial low t test, I tried taking stinging nettle root extract and had a decent increase in free test IIRC, from around 60 to around 90).

Today, my diet is much better, I'm bodybuilding, not as stressed, have been taking ZMA/TA and other supps, maintaining vitamin D levels, taking cod liver oil w/ vitamin A (shown to correlate w/ test levels). My guess is that my levels are above 390 now.

IF MK4 works as well in humans it would be expected to increase test by a sizeable amount, even a 50% increase over 500 would be around 750, which is a decent test level.

 

[Justlooking5]

Also im surprised that being such a young age you didnt have an easier time bouncing back.

I never had problems prior to this cycle. I attribute it to several things I did that time that I had never done previously:

1. Using UG lab test I got from a buddy rather than pharmaceutical grade from a more reputable source

2. Staying on for at least 5 months

3. Believing forum posts from a supp rep I trusted that topical ATD was effective for restoring HPTA function after a cycle, and I alternated it with letrozole rather than the standard clomid/nolva/arimidex I had used with good results in the past.

4. I was particularly stressed at this time anyway, and became depressed after coming off and I think I was prone to having depression happen which compounded low test and vice versa

I was also surprised my low test persisted because my levels were checked at age 28 but I stopped my cycle a full 3 1/2 years prior.

 

[Justlooking5]

here is some research we've done..

Why no MK-4?
First, vitamin K1, the vitamer found in plants is less likely to be consumed in the diet if one isn’t consuming a diet which has sufficient intake of vegetables. MK-4, on the other hand is commonly consumed in a typical diet, and even in diets of those who don’t consume a proper diet. For example, MK-4 is found at concentrations of 10.6 mcg per 100 grams of chicken nuggets. It’s also found in cheddar cheese and whole fried eggs at 10.2 and 9 mcg/100 grams, respectively. Barbecued chicken contains around 22.1 mcg/100 grams.

Elder SJ, Haytowitz DB, Howe J, et al. Vitamin k contents of meat, dairy, and fast food in the U.S. Diet. J Agric Food Chem. 2006 Jan 25;54(2):463-467

No Relevant Data Regarding Testosterone Production

Some manufacturers have begun using MK-4 as a source of vitamin K, claiming it may help boost testosterone levels in men based upon a study in rats. The problem is that the dose used in the study would be the equivalent of a 70 kg human consuming 851 mg per day. No multivitamin product on the market would contain sufficient quantities for this to be feasible in humans. In addition, the study required in vitro concentrations in the high micromolar range, whereas human bioavailability studies failed to show any detectable level of MK-4 after a 420 mcg dose was consumed.

Ito A, Shirakawa H, Takumi N, et al. Menaquinone-4 enhances testosterone production in rats and testis-derived tumor cells. Lipids Health Dis. 2011 Sep 13;10:158
Sato T, Schurgers LJ, Uenishi K. Comparison of menaquinone-4 and menaquinone-7 bioavailability in healthy women. Nutr J. 2012 Nov12;11:93

K2 MK4 is prescribed in Japan for osteoarthritis at 45mg/day with supporting studies:

These findings are supported by clinical trials, in which vitamin K2 has been shown to successfully reduce the incidence of bone fractures. A two-year Japanese study found that vitamin K2 (MK-4) reduced the incidence of vertebral (spine) fractures by 52% in 120 patients with osteoporosis, compared with patients who did not receive this nutrient.7 The high dose used in this trial—as with most studies examining vitamin K2’s effect on bone density—was 45 mg/day, a prescription dose used in Japan to treat osteoporosis that is unavailable in the US. As you will read later, lower doses of K2 found in dietary supplements appear to also provide significant benefits.

http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/protecting-bone-and-arterial-health-with-vitamin-k2/Page-01

I don't know if it will work for anyone else but for those interested in giving it a try it's like 8 bucks a month (I paid 17 bucks for a 60 cap bottle of 5mg from what I believe to be a reputable brand who makes a popular fish oil product).

 

[Justlooking5]

sounds placeboish

The energy and joint benefits definitely aren't (joints popping not being sore etc. is hard to misinterpret), same with energy.
The other stuff is kind of subjective but so are a lot of supp results. I definitely feel more powerful/robust, have better energy, my irritability is gone. Personally, the joint and energy benefits are enough for me and I'm not the only person who has reported these two effects.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

K2 MK4 is prescribed in Japan for osteoarthritis at 45mg/day with supporting studies:



http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/protecting-bone-and-arterial-health-with-vitamin-k2/Page-01

I don't know if it will work for anyone else but for those interested in giving it a try it's like 8 bucks a month (I paid 17 bucks for a 60 cap bottle of 5mg from what I believe to be a reputable brand who makes a popular fish oil product).

Even if it doesn't yield the same results as the animal study (which it probably won't, you're not going to take 100+ pills per day to get an equivalent dose, nor would I recommend it), but taking a moderate dose seems like it may still provide some benefits at an affordable cost, and is generally healthy as well.

 

[Justlooking5]

That's my thought, I would encourage anyone interested to give it a try and post feedback on here (try to take at least 5mg of the MK-4 b/c some supps have low dose like 100mcg). I would also suggest taking your vitamin d w/ the K2 as it is supposed to help with vitamin d absorption.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

I never had problems prior to this cycle. I attribute it to several things I did that time that I had never done previously:

1. Using UG lab test I got from a buddy rather than pharmaceutical grade from a more reputable source

2. Staying on for at least 5 months

3. Believing forum posts from a supp rep I trusted that topical ATD was effective for restoring HPTA function after a cycle, and I alternated it with letrozole rather than the standard clomid/nolva/arimidex I had used with good results in the past.

4. I was particularly stressed at this time anyway, and became depressed after coming off and I think I was prone to having depression happen which compounded low test and vice versa

I was also surprised my low test persisted because my levels were checked at age 28 but I stopped my cycle a full 3 1/2 years prior.

Well you seem well versed and articulate so at least you're taking action and trying to right it, the only thing that I found wonky was the 5 months on I wouldn't even have the balls to do that unless I was okay with being on TRT for life which I'm not lol. Anyways thank you for the tip and providing promising material supporting your claims. Definitely give AlphaMax XT by performax labs a go has a full 1.6g of stinging nettle and TA and ferula and forskolin very nice formula and worth the money, should put you in the right direction.

 

[BlockBuilder]

That's my thought, I would encourage anyone interested to give it a try and post feedback on here (try to take at least 5mg of the MK-4 b/c some supps have low dose like 100mcg). I would also suggest taking your vitamin d w/ the K2 as it is supposed to help with vitamin d absorption.

I'll try it I found a decent brand called Peak K2. Listen I need something good for joints too.

 

[USPlabsRep]

K2 MK4 is prescribed in Japan for osteoarthritis at 45mg/day with supporting studies:



http://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/3/protecting-bone-and-arterial-health-with-vitamin-k2/Page-01

I don't know if it will work for anyone else but for those interested in giving it a try it's like 8 bucks a month (I paid 17 bucks for a 60 cap bottle of 5mg from what I believe to be a reputable brand who makes a popular fish oil product).

lacks relevance

 

[Justlooking5]

I'll try it I found a decent brand called Peak K2. Listen I need something good for joints too.

I've been taking 1-300mg of bulk hyaluronic acid powder you can get on amazon for joints and I think it's pretty helpful to minimize joint issues. I will say I was having some back and knee soreness from sitting too long for the past couple months but I have had zero issues in the past week and my joints feel less dry.

 

[Justlooking5]

lacks relevance

Lacks relevance to what? Not your claim that

human bioavailability studies failed to show any detectable level of MK-4 after a 420 mcg dose was consumed.

The study doesn't address testosterone, but it does suggest evidence for physiological effects from oral MK-4 (meaning it's bioavailable enough to have an effect).

 

[BlockBuilder]

I've been taking 1-300mg of bulk hyaluronic acid powder you can get on amazon for joints and I think it's pretty helpful to minimize joint issues. I will say I was having some back and knee soreness from sitting too long for the past couple months but I have had zero issues in the past week and my joints feel less dry.

I'm hoping the K2 helps with joints. I'm taking cissus quadrangularis, MSM at 2 grams and hyaularonic acid. It's the vitamin shoppe brand. I should probably take fish oil that's something I had stopped because it was giving me reflux. I was taking curcumin. I'm telling you nothing I've ever taken got rid of joint pain so quickly but it gave me such horrible heartburn I had to stop that also

 

[Justlooking5]

I'm hoping the K2 helps with joints. I'm taking cissus quadrangularis, MSM at 2 grams and hyaularonic acid. It's the vitamin shoppe brand. I should probably take fish oil that's something I had stopped because it was giving me reflux. I was taking curcumin. I'm telling you nothing I've ever taken got rid of joint pain so quickly but it gave me such horrible heartburn I had to stop that also

I hope you see a benefit. If you try it for a week at 5mg at least and post back what you notice.

 

[Justlooking5]

Discussion of face widening and some guy reports "teenager libido" from taking MK-4 on peaktestosterone forum:

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/forum/index.php?topic=4420.0

 

[machinehead]

The energy and joint benefits definitely aren't (joints popping not being sore etc. is hard to misinterpret), same with energy.
The other stuff is kind of subjective but so are a lot of supp results. I definitely feel more powerful/robust, have better energy, my irritability is gone. Personally, the joint and energy benefits are enough for me and I'm not the only person who has reported these two effects.

Seeing how MK4 is claimed to boost the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone, I would not be surprised at your fast results. I had a similar reaction to Humanofort when I took it for the first time years ago as it increases the same enzyme activity.

If you had that low testosterone for years I'd say what did not recover was your cortisol line, all the way from cholesterol to cortisol. It is your cortisol and thyroid together that determine your overall metabolism and if that is low testosterone metabolism (total testosterone to SHBG ratio if you will) would also be low. You can't have high-normal testosterone with low-normal cortisol naturally. Now that you backfilling your cortisol your testosterone might increase too but pregnenolone alone could give your effects you are experiencing, though the feeling of robustness is definitely from higher cortisol now.

Now I have to try some M4 myself

 

[USPlabsRep]

Lacks relevance to what? Not your claim that
The study doesn't address testosterone, but it does suggest evidence for physiological effects from oral MK-4 (meaning it's bioavailable enough to have an effect).

did those studies measure bioavailability?

 

[BlockBuilder]

I hope you see a benefit. If you try it for a week at 5mg at least and post back what you notice.

The brand I'm getting Peak K2 has 15 mg caps. I'm going to start with 15mg and work my way up to 45 mg

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

The brand I'm getting Peak K2 has 15 mg caps. I'm going to start with 15mg and work my way up to 45 mg

I noticed energy after taking a dose of K2-M4 at only 5mg so have fun lol

 

[BlockBuilder]

I noticed energy after taking a dose of K2-M4 at only 5mg so have fun lol

I'm reading lots of great reviews on K2 M4. People with chronic fatigue feeling energetic, people with severe bone issues seeing great improvement especially in people with osteoarthritis. Plus the heart health benefits of course like clearing up calcium build up in the arteries. The list goes on and on it seems

 

[mcc23]

Is mk4 more bio available than 7?

 

[Woody]

I ordered Carlson brand MK4 just on the 'more energetic' feedback ITT. It'll be delivered Saturday so we shall see.

 

[alwaysfirst]

I ordered Carlson brand MK4 just on the 'more energetic' feedback ITT. It'll be delivered Saturday so we shall see.

Let us/me know how it goes!

 

[mcc23]

So is MK4 the one everyone's going with?

 

[mcc23]

https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-11-93

Looks like mk7 is much more bio-available than mk4.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-11-93

Looks like mk7 is much more bio-available than mk4.

Mk4 has better health benefits than mk7, if I had to buy more for something with better health benefits in the long run I'd do, I always have many supplements with bioperin and bergamottin that I take at the same time as the mk4 so my absorptions through the roof.

 

[mcc23]

Mk4 has better health benefits than mk7, if I had to buy more for something with better health benefits in the long run I'd do, I always have many supplements with bioperin and bergamottin that I take at the same time as the mk4 so my absorptions through the roof.

I agree. Trying to find more research supporting mk4 vs 7

 

[alwaysfirst]

Mk4 has better health benefits than mk7, if I had to buy more for something with better health benefits in the long run I'd do, I always have many supplements with bioperin and bergamottin that I take at the same time as the mk4 so my absorptions through the roof.

I saw that it's brands that combined both MK-4 and MK-7 in the same, would that be a better product then?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I saw that it's brands that combined both MK-4 and MK-7 in the same, would that be a better product then?

I use LEF Super-K. I really think it's micromanaging to worry about all the types - Just eating Spinach would probably do for 99.8% of us

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Mk4 has better health benefits than mk7, if I had to buy more for something with better health benefits in the long run I'd do, I always have many supplements with bioperin and bergamottin that I take at the same time as the mk4 so my absorptions through the roof.

If you're talking about BioPerine (piperine), it's worth noting that it isn't always going to inherently increase absorption/bioavailability of everything you take with it. I'm not saying it wouldn't help or would be bad with K2, it's just that I see a lot of people/supplements throwing in piperine and assuming it's magically going to make everything work better. For example, rhodiola doesn't go very well with piperine based on some research. Piperine definitely has its uses though.

Sorry for the rant

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

If you're talking about BioPerine (piperine), it's worth noting that it isn't always going to inherently increase absorption/bioavailability of everything you take with it. I'm not saying it wouldn't help or would be bad with K2, it's just that I see a lot of people/supplements throwing in piperine and assuming it's magically going to make everything work better. For example, rhodiola doesn't go very well with piperine based on some research. Piperine definitely has its uses though.

Sorry for the rant

Rhodiola and bioperin have a negative interaction?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Rhodiola and bioperin have a negative interaction?

In rats anyway. There's a thread I made in the nootropics section called "Rhodiola with Piperine" I think. It goes into more detail and links to the study, but here's an excerpt:

A fixed combination of rhodioloside, rosavin, rosarin and rosin was more active than any of the individual components alone, indicating a synergistic effect of the ingredients in RR extract. Piperine in combination with Rhodiola (RPE) distorts pharmacological effect of Rhodiola most probably due to changes of pharmacokinetic profile of rhodioloside and rosavin. RPE cannot provide predictable therapeutic effect due to herb-herb interaction. Moreover, concomitant treatment of RPE with other drugs should also be excluded due to drug-piperine interaction.

 

[Justlooking5]

As a followup, I decided to increase the K2 MK4 dose to 15mg daily just to see if there were any further benefits.
So far the main things I have noticed are:

-Improved sleep (my sleep is deeper, less interrupted, and more refreshing)
-Continued energy benefits
-Continued joint benefits
-My balls feels heavier/fuller
-Looking better at the gym. Just looking bigger overall, and today I had pretty good strength (I'll discuss in more detail on my HMB log in the log section)
-Had a family member who saw me yesterday after not seeing me for a few months comment that it looked like I was "redefining" my weight, which he meant that I looked leaner and harder.

I have done a few other things simultaneously that need mention.
1. I have decided to take 2-800mg TA along with the K2, but I'm taking the TA only on Thur.-Sun., the K2 daily. I've taken TA at 800mg/day before so I think I can differentiate the effects to some degree (e.g., sleep/joint benefits seen from K2 not seen from TA).

2. I have gone as BPA free as possible as of about 2 weeks ago and I think it does make a difference. For years actually I have been drinking out of plastic cups and plastic water bottles (BPA = estrogen acting compound with other negative effects such as promoting abdominal fat) instead of ceramic dishware. I now am drinking out of plant based drinking cups that are BPA free and aluminium lined BPA free water bottle. I think it's made a difference, maybe part of why I'm less soft/watery which has been a long-term issue for me the past few years (could be the K2 also, hard to say). As I mention even a family member I had not seen in a few months commented that I was looking "redefined" he clarified as harder/leaner.

3. I have added agmatine at 1g x 4 days per week also PreWO and about 250mg pre-bedtime, which I think is an awesome supp that helps with pump, energy, mood, sleep, fat loss, vascularity, perhaps strength, etc.

4. Switched over to only 100% grass fed beef, 100% GF yogurt. Some people think this has sig. recomp benefits.

Whether the energy, sleep benefits, poss. increased strength, increased size, and decreased watery/soft look are mainly due to increased test from K2, or from other effects of K2 + the other stuff mentioned is not clear, but I think the compound is at least beneficial for joints, energy, sleep, and mood, and IMO probably increases testosterone but it's hard to know for certain.

 

[Justlooking5]

So is MK4 the one everyone's going with?

I went with MK4 because it's the version used in studies showing increased testosterone.