Agmatine interaction with other supplements.

Goal_swole

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I have read about many benefits of agmatine and it's been used in many pwo mostly with other ingredients. But I was just checking examine.com and found that it doesn't go well with many other supps like citrulline, creatine, daa etc. So can someone please help me understand this as its confusing me.
examine.com/supplements/Agmatine/
 
LeanEngineer

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hmm thats the first time i've heard that. I have used it with citrulline, creatine, beta alanine etc for a long time now. thats interesting.
 
Bossmoss94

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That's confusing to me as well. I feel it is almost ALWAYS included with those other ingredients...
 
Jiigzz

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This has been discussed a few times here, ultimately there is no issue
 
jgntyce

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Agmatine is a staple supplement and it has a wide range of health benefits: pumps, endurance, improved body composition and recovery, and increased nitric oxide synthesis. This compound can be stacked with nearly anything, especially with other products from the SNS line!

https://nutraplanet.com/products/sns-agmatine-powder-2/
 
RegisterJr

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I take agmatine, rauwolscine, and Creatine all around the same time and haven't experienced any negative sides.
 
kbayne

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Agmatine is a staple supplement and it has a wide range of health benefits: pumps, endurance, improved body composition and recovery, and increased nitric oxide synthesis. This compound can be stacked with nearly anything, especially with other products from the SNS line!

https://nutraplanet.com/products/sns-agmatine-powder-2/
I know you just became a rep for SNS, but no one was looking for recommendations on products FYI.
 
jgntyce

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I know you just became a rep for SNS, but no one was looking for recommendations on products FYI.
Fair enough brother.

I understand where you are coming from. I was giving information and my opinion on Agmatine and a link for anyone interested. I like to include helpful links because even though OP may not be looking for a product recommendation, there may be other people that read the thread might be, whether it be now or in the future. Thanks for the heads up.
 
Goal_swole

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Thanks for your inputs Yup I know that many take agmatine along with other supps even I myself am using a product that contains agmatine, creatine, citrulline etc but can anyone provide some link to research/study that says there aren't such issues.
 
Jiigzz

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Thanks for your inputs Yup I know that many take agmatine along with other supps even I myself am using a product that contains agmatine, creatine, citrulline etc but can anyone provide some link to research/study that says there aren't such issues.
If you link the ones that show issue (on phone so it takes waaaay to long to search) then we can pick apart why its not a big deal
 
Goal_swole

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I can't post the link because of low posts but it can be found at

Examine.com/supplements/agmatine/

And here is the part I am referring to:
Does Not Go Well With

L-Arginine*and*L-Citrulline*(for some neurological effects; cardiovascular interactions not well elucidated)

Yohimbine*and*Rauwolscine*(Agmatine activates the α2A receptor that these inhibit)

D-Aspartic Acid*due to reducing signalling via the NMDA receptors

Alcohol*coingestion*(may increase ulceration from alcohol)

Creatine*(on the assumption that creatine positively influences NMDA signalling, agmatine works in the opposite manner at the same site; they should not be antagonstic for muscle growth or nitric oxide boosting)
 
Ape McGrapes

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Might potentiate Kratom.
 
Goal_swole

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Thanks guys. I don't think there are much studies on this. So considering it's benefits and it's wide use along with other supps there shouldn't be much to worry about.
 
HIT4ME

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Honestly, I think this is a great question - I've been doing a lot of research myself on agmatine for different reasons and I think that it definately interacts with other supplements.

The reason it says it may not go well with Yohimbine is because it seems to have the opposite effect on Alpha-2 receptors. Taking them together may negate one or both products, or just simply create unknowns, IMO. Having said that, I've taken them together as many pre's combine the two, and I've taken it in separate products together, and I feel that for me Y's effects overcome the agmatine effects and I still feel the Y. It's hard to say from subjective experience only and an n=1 study.

Agmatine can potentiate kratom, marijuana, narcotics, SSRIs, etc. it would seem. But this can be good - it helps you avoid tolerance and makes them more effective at lower doses (potentially) - so addiction, increasing doses, etc. can be less of an issue.

As far as Citruline/Creatine/Arginine, etc. - I believe this depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for pump, agmatine, citrulline, etc. would be effective together. If you are looking for the neurological effects of agmatine, I think citruline, arginine, etc. may interfere with the agmatine.

I would love to hear what others have to say on this, because I could be a little off....
 
Driven2lift

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No known ill interactions here.

These receptors aren't binary on/off 0%-100%

The NMDA signalling was entirely unrelated between the two, and is being misunderstood here.

Agmatine does not have an opposite effect on a2, either... You guys think agmatine inhibits fat loss regularly?
Because it absolutely does not.

Examine needs to die on days like this lol.
Because those damn up/down arrows saying it has effect are far too one dimensional when it comes to receptors existing on both sides of the BBB, and when trying to extrapolate those to a situation where another study "conflicts"

Not one study actually done showing both being used

Studies used also will vary by biopsy area, these receptors vary in effect by tissue, some are blood draws which have next to zero correlation to those. Lol.
Have I confused anyone yet?

We have lots of supp pros here now but not enough biochemists ;)

Maybe furion77 is around?
Or... Shot in the dark: mr.cooper69


If someone has definitive data otherwise I will rep the hell out if you,
But I think we're just spouting off words here without really knowing.
 
HIT4ME

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No known ill interactions here.

These receptors aren't binary on/off 0%-100%

The NMDA signalling was entirely unrelated between the two, and is being misunderstood here.

Agmatine does not have an opposite effect on a2, either... You guys think agmatine inhibits fat loss regularly?
Because it absolutely does not.

Examine needs to die on days like this lol.
Because those damn up/down arrows saying it has effect are far too one dimensional when it comes to receptors existing on both sides of the BBB, and when trying to extrapolate those to a situation where another study "conflicts"

Not one study actually done showing both being used

Studies used also will vary by biopsy area, these receptors vary in effect by tissue, some are blood draws which have next to zero correlation to those. Lol.
Have I confused anyone yet?

We have lots of supp pros here now but not enough biochemists ;)

Maybe furion77 is around?
Or... Shot in the dark: mr.cooper69


If someone has definitive data otherwise I will rep the hell out if you,
But I think we're just spouting off words here without really knowing.
I like this post. And please don't take what I said as being right or wrong - it has been shown to be an alpha-2 agonist, which is the opposite effect of Y. This is debatable as it stands, but it appears to be even less relevant on a systemic level, which I think is what your comment on receptors on different sides of the BBB show.

This study shows it activates A2 and inhibits clonidine (another A2 Agonist, "opposite" yohimbine) binding - but that is within the brain if I'm not mistaken. The same study shows that it did NOT effect A2 within the body. Please let me know if I'm reading this incorrectly?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7715734


Ultimately, agmatine/clonidine are both alpha2 agonists, which MAY cause one to use their effects interchangeably and Yohimbine would be expected to inhibit clonidine's actions based on this (which is my experience, yohimbine "overcomes" agmatine's alpha2 agonism). Even with clonidine though, this is theoretical.

There is also a study here that concludes agmatine does NOT have a2 activity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8971790

My overall feelings are that the effects agmatine causes, and interactions it has, will be largely beneficial. The worst case scenario from what I can see in most cases, will be that either it negates something else you are taking or something else you are taking negates its effects. And if you are aware of this possibility, you can test it yourself to some degree and see what you believe for yourself. It isn't like citrulline/agmatine will harm you in any way.

And just because something can be beneficial in 20 different ways doesn't mean you shouldn't mix it with something else that may eliminate even 2-3 of those benefits. The 17 remaining benefits may be all you are really looking for.
 
Driven2lift

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2 things being an a2 agonist tells me nothing lol.

Look at higenamine and clen.
Both b-agonist ;)

I don't like drawing my own conclusions is all.
 
HIT4ME

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2 things being an a2 agonist tells me nothing lol.

Look at higenamine and clen.
Both b-agonist ;)

I don't like drawing my own conclusions is all.
I agree, and that is kind of my point. It gives some insight into the effects of the receptor site, but since that isn't ALL they do, and since they may activate/deactivate at different rates/strengths and in different ways, the carry over is theoretical and maybe no at all accurate. Like you said, I'd like to see other insights on this - I think you and I are on the same page for the most part.
 
Jiigzz

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Cooper has posted on this before. You could google it most likely
 
Driven2lift

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Cooper has posted on this before. You could google it most likely
Google: "I know Cyrus has the answer to this goddamn it come back we miss you"

My search terms keep getting off track
 
furion

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I like this post. And please don't take what I said as being right or wrong - it has been shown to be an alpha-2 agonist, which is the opposite effect of Y. This is debatable as it stands, but it appears to be even less relevant on a systemic level, which I think is what your comment on receptors on different sides of the BBB show.

This study shows it activates A2 and inhibits clonidine (another A2 Agonist, "opposite" yohimbine) binding - but that is within the brain if I'm not mistaken. The same study shows that it did NOT effect A2 within the body. Please let me know if I'm reading this incorrectly?
Agmatine recognizes alpha 2-adrenoceptor binding sites but neither activates nor inhibits alpha 2-adrenoceptors. - PubMed - NCBI

Ultimately, agmatine/clonidine are both alpha2 agonists, which MAY cause one to use their effects interchangeably and Yohimbine would be expected to inhibit clonidine's actions based on this (which is my experience, yohimbine "overcomes" agmatine's alpha2 agonism). Even with clonidine though, this is theoretical.

There is also a study here that concludes agmatine does NOT have a2 activity.

Agmatine does not have activity at alpha 2-adrenoceptors which modulate the firing rate of locus coeruleus neurones: an electrophysiological study ... - PubMed - NCBI

My overall feelings are that the effects agmatine causes, and interactions it has, will be largely beneficial. The worst case scenario from what I can see in most cases, will be that either it negates something else you are taking or something else you are taking negates its effects. And if you are aware of this possibility, you can test it yourself to some degree and see what you believe for yourself. It isn't like citrulline/agmatine will harm you in any way.

And just because something can be beneficial in 20 different ways doesn't mean you shouldn't mix it with something else that may eliminate even 2-3 of those benefits. The 17 remaining benefits may be all you are really looking for.
There is no pharmacodynamic interaction between agmatine and yohimbine.
This pretty firm conclusion can drawn from both of the papers you referenced as well as the application of some simple receptor theory.
The papers actually indicate that agmatine is a ligand for post-junctional alpha 2 receptors (target of yohimbine) however does not appear to exert activation of these receptors as evidenced by the lack of downstream activity.

This finding is more or less apparent when looking at the structures of known alpha-2 agonists and agmatine. A quick glance at the hypothesized structural activity relationships of alpha 2 agonists suggests that an imidazoline ring and a hydrophobic group (phenyl or benzyl) may essential for strong agonist activity at the receptor (with exception of guanfacine- which appears to be biotransformed). Agmatine does not possess these which may provide some theoretical explanation as to why it does not exert any measurable direct agonist activity.

Furthermore, yohimbine binds to the (target) post-synaptic alpha-2 receptor (subtypes) non-competitively, meaning that the endogenous ligands for these receptors (epinephrine, agmatine) can’t theoretically displace it, essentially eliminating any chance of a pharmacodynamic interaction.
 
Jiigzz

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There is no pharmacodynamic interaction between agmatine and yohimbine.
This pretty firm conclusion can drawn from both of the papers you referenced as well as the application of some simple receptor theory.
The papers actually indicate that agmatine is a ligand for post-junctional alpha 2 receptors (target of yohimbine) however does not appear to exert activation of these receptors as evidenced by the lack of downstream activity.

This finding is more or less apparent when looking at the structures of known alpha-2 agonists and agmatine. A quick glance at the hypothesized structural activity relationships of alpha 2 agonists suggests that an imidazoline ring and a hydrophobic group (phenyl or benzyl) may essential for strong agonist activity at the receptor (with exception of guanfacine- which appears to be biotransformed). Agmatine does not possess these which may provide some theoretical explanation as to why it does not exert any measurable direct agonist activity.

Furthermore, yohimbine binds to the (target) post-synaptic alpha-2 receptor (subtypes) non-competitively, meaning that the endogenous ligands for these receptors (epinephrine, agmatine) can’t theoretically displace it, essentially eliminating any chance of a pharmacodynamic interaction.
Yeah, what he said
 
Driven2lift

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Glad you stopped in
 
HIT4ME

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There is no pharmacodynamic interaction between agmatine and yohimbine.
This pretty firm conclusion can drawn from both of the papers you referenced as well as the application of some simple receptor theory.
The papers actually indicate that agmatine is a ligand for post-junctional alpha 2 receptors (target of yohimbine) however does not appear to exert activation of these receptors as evidenced by the lack of downstream activity.

This finding is more or less apparent when looking at the structures of known alpha-2 agonists and agmatine. A quick glance at the hypothesized structural activity relationships of alpha 2 agonists suggests that an imidazoline ring and a hydrophobic group (phenyl or benzyl) may essential for strong agonist activity at the receptor (with exception of guanfacine- which appears to be biotransformed). Agmatine does not possess these which may provide some theoretical explanation as to why it does not exert any measurable direct agonist activity.

Furthermore, yohimbine binds to the (target) post-synaptic alpha-2 receptor (subtypes) non-competitively, meaning that the endogenous ligands for these receptors (epinephrine, agmatine) can’t theoretically displace it, essentially eliminating any chance of a pharmacodynamic interaction.
As we say in MA, "You're wicked smaht."

I need to get myself some chemistry, biology, etc. text books and learn some of these "basic" ideas. What you said seems to be substantiated with my real-world n=1 experiments on myself - when I take Y with AGM, I don't "feel" any different than taking Y by itself. The fact that I am fairly sensitive to Y's effects and it can be unpleasant at moderate doses, may confound or substantiate my assessment, but you have logic to explain it.

How many people on here know what a ligand? Can anyone actually explain it? I have a basic idea, but it's not something I could really apply just yet.

What does post-junctional mean?
 
Jiigzz

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Synapsin

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As we say in MA, "You're wicked smaht."

I need to get myself some chemistry, biology, etc. text books and learn some of these "basic" ideas. What you said seems to be substantiated with my real-world n=1 experiments on myself - when I take Y with AGM, I don't "feel" any different than taking Y by itself. The fact that I am fairly sensitive to Y's effects and it can be unpleasant at moderate doses, may confound or substantiate my assessment, but you have logic to explain it.

How many people on here know what a ligand? Can anyone actually explain it? I have a basic idea, but it's not something I could really apply just yet.

What does post-junctional mean?
I do. It would probably be easier to explain if you tell me what you think it is and go from there as ligand can have different meanings. If you are truly interested in learning the basics, I typically teach undergraduate neuroscience students from the following book:

https://www.amazon.ca/Neuroscience-Exploring-Mark-Bear-PhD/dp/0781778174

Even the third edition is a great read for a beginner.
 
hrdgain81

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Great info here! Just sharing my own personal experience, I've tried agmatine on three occasions, each time I was also taking Creatine and Beta-alanine, this last time a small amount of Citruline Malate as well from Xtend. Each time I've tried it I get severe sides, headaches, flushing, light headed, dizzy, it feels like it's tanking my blood pressure. I've tried dosing 500mg, 300mg, and 100mg with the only difference being how harsh the sides were, but they were still present even at the lowest dose. Has anyone else experienced this?

I haven't tried it solo yet, but I hadn't considered that it could be an interaction with one of those other supplements until now since they are all staples and I've never had issues with them prior to using with agmatine.
 
HIT4ME

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I do. It would probably be easier to explain if you tell me what you think it is and go from there as ligand can have different meanings. If you are truly interested in learning the basics, I typically teach undergraduate neuroscience students from the following book:

https://www.amazon.ca/Neuroscience-Exploring-Mark-Bear-PhD/dp/0781778174

Even the third edition is a great read for a beginner.
I knew you would. Thanks for the text...I try to get a copy.

My understanding of a ligand is elementary I am sure. It seems to be a molecule that binds to a host molecule and alters the action of that molecule - changing its action in some way, or making it stronger, making it weaker, etc.

So, Agm, if I am interpreting Furion is saying correctly, binds to the alpha2 receptor site but it's modification is NOT to activate the receptor...it must modify its action in another way?

Not sure what post junctional means either haha.
 

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