Where do you draw the line onumber being natty?

[raul87]

What products? Ingredients? I'd like to stay natty as far as my genes can take me and I don't plan on taking anything for the foreseeable future as I've been lifting for less than 2 years. I'm just curious as to what has convinced you guys ton either stay natty or go past it.

Edit: wtf autocorrect really ****ed up the title lol

 

[ma70]

For me, AAS/SARMs/PHs/drugs for the most part are not natty. Obviously people have different ideas of it, but that's mine.

 

[LeanEngineer]

Pretty much for natty supps just stay in the category of natural anabolic which include products like follidrone, anafuse, abe, x gels, PA etc

Anything that is supressive to your hormones is not natty.

 

[HIT4ME]

For me, AAS/SARMs/PHs/drugs for the most part are not natty. Obviously people have different ideas of it, but that's mine.

I pretty much agree with this. As your question implies, the line is fuzzy still though. 11-Oxo, for instance, is a fish hormone that we all eat if we eat fish...but not at the levels we use in supplementation, and 11-Oxo is hormonal in humans. This is just an example of a chemical that, in my mind, you could make the argument for in either direction.

 

[ma70]

I pretty much agree with this. As your question implies, the line is fuzzy still though. 11-Oxo, for instance, is a fish hormone that we all eat if we eat fish...but not at the levels we use in supplementation, and 11-Oxo is hormonal in humans. This is just an example of a chemical that, in my mind, you could make the argument for in either direction.

Suppression = not natty, to me. It's pretty damn close to natural though, ahha.

 

[Woody]

I pretty much agree with this. As your question implies, the line is fuzzy still though. 11-Oxo, for instance, is a fish hormone that we all eat if we eat fish...but not at the levels we use in supplementation, and 11-Oxo is hormonal in humans. This is just an example of a chemical that, in my mind, you could make the argument for in either direction.

Testosterone is natural in humans, but supplementing with it is not natural.

 

[jaylongjohn]

I draw the line at milk with rbgh…

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I pretty much agree with this. As your question implies, the line is fuzzy still though. 11-Oxo, for instance, is a fish hormone that we all eat if we eat fish...but not at the levels we use in supplementation, and 11-Oxo is hormonal in humans. This is just an example of a chemical that, in my mind, you could make the argument for in either direction.

That's an interesting one. Granted, Royal jelly contains testosterone, but that doesn't mean you're natty if you take test. And while ecdysterone is a hormone, it is not androgenic in humans, so that's natty IMO. Of course, this is a pretty subjective subject, and, in all honesty (coming from someone who is natty) if a non-natty "supplement" came out tomorrow that worked better than anything we have now, and was somehow completely safe and non-suppressive, would any of us want to be natty anyway? It seems that, at that hypothetical point, you'd be significantly limiting yourself based on only subjective morality, not safety/health concerns (putting legality/testing aside).

 

[ma70]

That's an interesting one. Granted, Royal jelly contains testosterone, but that doesn't mean you're natty if you take test. And while ecdysterone is a hormone, it is not androgenic in humans, so that's natty IMO. Of course, this is a pretty subjective subject, and, in all honesty (coming from someone who is natty) if a non-natty "supplement" came out tomorrow that worked better than anything we have now, and was somehow completely safe and non-suppressive, would any of us want to be natty anyway? It seems that, at that hypothetical point, you'd be significantly limiting yourself based on only subjective morality, not safety/health concerns (putting legality/testing aside).

Yeah, 11-oxo/kt is the only PH I've ever considered because it basically has almost no side effects and doesn't require a SERM PCT in most cases.

 

[jaylongjohn]

Oh yeah and creatine, everyone knows you're not natty if you're "on" creatine.

 

[HIT4ME]

Suppression = not natty, to me. It's pretty damn close to natural though, ahha.

Yeah, I'm not saying it is or isn't natural. It's borderline for me. And of course, there are some natural substances that suppress testosterone also - spearmint for example.

Testosterone is natural in humans, but supplementing with it is not natural.

To follow this logic, muscleupcrohn pointed out a good example. If you eat royal jelly, does that make you not natty? You could get it in nature. You can get 11-oxo in nature. But, to your point, extracting and concentrating and taking large doses may be the defining factor for some people.

That's an interesting one. Granted, Royal jelly contains testosterone, but that doesn't mean you're natty if you take test. And while ecdysterone is a hormone, it is not androgenic in humans, so that's natty IMO. Of course, this is a pretty subjective subject, and, in all honesty (coming from someone who is natty) if a non-natty "supplement" came out tomorrow that worked better than anything we have now, and was somehow completely safe and non-suppressive, would any of us want to be natty anyway? It seems that, at that hypothetical point, you'd be significantly limiting yourself based on only subjective morality, not safety/health concerns (putting legality/testing aside).

I think this is a big part of it - it's subjective to some degree. And we all have to decide what we believe in this and where we draw the line. I think the big thing is, what are the health impacts - there are plenty of "natural" things that people take that could be worse for you than "unnatural" testosterone. It just depends on the application.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yeah, I'm not saying it is or isn't natural. It's borderline for me. And of course, there are some natural substances that suppress testosterone also - spearmint for example.



To follow this logic, muscleupcrohn pointed out a good example. If you eat royal jelly, does that make you not natty? You could get it in nature. You can get 11-oxo in nature. But, to your point, extracting and concentrating and taking large doses may be the defining factor for some people.



I think this is a big part of it - it's subjective to some degree. And we all have to decide what we believe in this and where we draw the line. I think the big thing is, what are the health impacts - there are plenty of "natural" things that people take that could be worse for you than "unnatural" testosterone. It just depends on the application.

Safety/health concerns are what keeps me natty (I'm only 21). And yeah, there are plenty of natty supplements/substances that are terrible for you, and I'd rather take test than some of them, haha.

 

[ma70]

Safety/health concerns are what keeps me natty (I'm only 21). And yeah, there are plenty of natty supplements/substances that are terrible for you, and I'd rather take test than some of them, haha.

Same. I don't care about the natty title. I don't compete in bodybuilding or anything, but it's mostly for health reasons. If I could take some well researched stuff that does not suppress me or effect any health values (liver, bp) and add 100 lbs to my total in one month, then uhm....hell yeah I'm taking it. HAHA.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Same. I don't care about the natty title. I don't compete in bodybuilding or anything, but it's mostly for health reasons. If I could take some well researched stuff that does not suppress me or effect any health values (liver, bp) and add 100 lbs to my total in one month, then uhm....hell yeah I'm taking it. HAHA.

Haha, so would I. With all the time we spend eating/training, and all the money we spend on food/gyms/supplements, it wouldn't really make sense not to.

 

[ma70]

Haha, so would I. With all the time we spend eating/training, and all the money we spend on food/gyms/supplements, it wouldn't really make sense not to.

There are some people who are obsessed with the "natty" title though.

 

[MrKleen73]

This is an age old debate to which there is no end. Literally no one is "Natty" unless they get all of their food 100% hormone and pesticide free.Also if it wasn't killed or harvested so you could eat it then it isn't natty.

The issue is that people see "Natty" as a status, and not an activity and yet most people use supplements that may be available in nature but not at the concentration and levels without using scientific methods of extraction to get too. Once it was modified by science it is no longer "natural".

If by natural you mean you want to stay safe and healthy and only use things that will benefit your health or not negatively effect it in any way then your choices are limited. I would say Creatine, would be the most ergogenic aid you could find in the natty world, black coffee as a pre-workout if you need it.

Once you start taking things that effect your hormone levels, calling yourself natty is really loosening the reigns on what natural actually would mean. So things that lower estrogen or raise testosterone, AND have to go through an extraction process to achieve those levels would definitely not be natural. Taking a SARM or Pro-Hormone is simply not natty, an argument could be made for the PH but a SARM is not in any way shape or form a supplement, nor a natty product. It is an engineered compound that we get to take for now through gray market and loop holes in the laws right now. Saying because you can get it or use it legally is natty is incorrect.

It all comes down to why you want to avoid things. Now if you are an athlete then you need to go by what the W.A.D.A. says is natty and simply avoid anything that is banned.

I know people who are truly natty, as in they simply don't take supplements at all. They just eat whole food and workout. No creatine, preworkout, GDA, or multi-vitamins and they make good gains. If you truly want to call yourself natty then this is the way to go. If by natty you mean you are trying to just keep yourself safe and healthy then use that as your guide instead of what is considered "Natty".

In the end natty or not natty is not important, what is important is that it is your body to choose what compounds you use to reach your goals. You weigh the risks and rewards of that and do what you see fit. Hold yourself to your standards not others, and don't worry abut achieving a label but your own stamp of approval.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

There are some people who are obsessed with the "natty" title though.

I understand that, but assuming there existed an incredibly effective, completely safe, non-natty "supplement," it would become very common and widely used over time, and, eventually, claiming natty and not using it would be viewed similarly to how we view people who think themselves superior for not taking protein shakes, creatine, or pre workouts (we don't take them very seriously). Of course, this is, sadly, a purely hypothetical scenario for now.

 

[raul87]

Interesting to see so many different opinions it's awesome. As for me and my limited knowledge I am leaning towards if a PCT is needed it's no longer natty something along those lines

 

[TexasLifter89]

Depends on if it is bro natty or natty defined by an org. And even then orgs deviate from one another on what they consider natty. Pick your sport, pick your fed. If it is tested, stay within their test passing limits

 

[cheftepesh1]

I've dabbled in ph and sarms several times. Staying natty to me isn't that important. I just don't think I would go as far as an injectable.

 

[GreekTheBrick]

I stopped being natty when I used celltech back in the day and gained 50lb of "lean muscle mass"(as if there is fat muscle mass). Now I m doomed to pin in order to preserve that "lean muscle mass"!!

 

[UncleSarm]

Testosterone is natural in humans, but supplementing with it is not natural.

Vitamin C, D, B12, iron, magnesium, etc. are natural in humans, but supplementing with them is not natural.

 

[UncleSarm]

Oh yeah and creatine, everyone knows you're not natty if you're "on" creatine.

Creatine is natural in humans, but supplementing with it is not natural.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Creatine is natural in humans, but supplementing with it is not natural.

Perhaps, but it's possible to get effective (3-5g) creatine from natural food sources, assuming you eat a lot of steak. Good luck eating enough Royal jelly to take in enough testosterone to raise your test to supraphysiological levels. I do see your point though.

An argument can be made that taking amino acids/vitamins/minerals is natural, as they are natural (how most of us probably think), but in the most literal sense, taking anything that's not natural (synthetic; not existing in nature) is not natural (and I've even read some academic papers arguing that taking synthetic nootropics like piracetam makes you a non-natty scholar).

 

[HIT4ME]

The real question is, why does natural matter?

For me, I try to avoid illegal substances and I also want to see how far I can go without steroids or, to a lesser degree, legal PHs. Health is also obviously a concern. To be truly strong you need to be healthy.

In other words, it isn't about the destination as much as the journey and a day will come, if I reach my "natural" limits or come close, that I will be ready to jump to the dark side maybe.

I think that people can go so much further than they think on their own, if they are willing to push and be patient. But most people can't go nearly as far as they think they can go naturally.

It is like they say, most people over estimate what they can achieve in 1 year, but far underestimate what they can achieve in 10 years.

 

[MrKleen73]

The real question is, why does natural matter?

For me, I try to avoid illegal substances and I also want to see how far I can go without steroids or, to a lesser degree, legal PHs. Health is also obviously a concern. To be truly strong you need to be healthy.

In other words, it isn't about the destination as much as the journey and a day will come, if I reach my "natural" limits or come close, that I will be ready to jump to the dark side maybe.

I think that people can go so much further than they think on their own, if they are willing to push and be patient. But most people can't go nearly as far as they think they can go naturally.

It is like they say, most people over estimate what they can achieve in 1 year, but far underestimate what they can achieve in 10 years.

Awesome last sentence!

 

[UncleSarm]

Perhaps, but it's possible to get effective (3-5g) creatine from natural food sources, assuming you eat a lot of steak. Good luck eating enough Royal jelly to take in enough testosterone to raise your test to supraphysiological levels. I do see your point though.

An argument can be made that taking amino acids/vitamins/minerals is natural, as they are natural (how most of us probably think), but in the most literal sense, taking anything that's not natural (synthetic; not existing in nature) is not natural (and I've even read some academic papers arguing that taking synthetic nootropics like piracetam makes you a non-natty scholar).

Yeah, my point was just to illustrate that anyone that prides themselves in being natty but takes vitamin supplements, creatine, BCAAs, or other concoctions, need to really take a good hard look at their regimen.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yeah, my point was just to illustrate that anyone that prides themselves in being natty but takes vitamin supplements, creatine, BCAAs, or other concoctions, need to really take a good hard look at their regimen.

In my opinion, it illustrates how pointless and meaningless such s subjective title is in reality. I'm not going to delude myself, I'm not natty because I have some moral objection to taking gear, I'm natty because of the potential health/safety concerns/issues that come with use. As I said, if there was some magical non-natty pill that caused incredible gains in strength and size, but had no side effects or risks associated with it, I feel it'd be rather foolish not to use it, if you aren't competing in an organization/league that prohibits it.

 

[UncleSarm]

The real question is, why does natural matter?

For me, I try to avoid illegal substances and I also want to see how far I can go without steroids or, to a lesser degree, legal PHs. Health is also obviously a concern. To be truly strong you need to be healthy.

In other words, it isn't about the destination as much as the journey and a day will come, if I reach my "natural" limits or come close, that I will be ready to jump to the dark side maybe.

I think that people can go so much further than they think on their own, if they are willing to push and be patient. But most people can't go nearly as far as they think they can go naturally.

It is like they say, most people over estimate what they can achieve in 1 year, but far underestimate what they can achieve in 10 years.

Awesome last sentence!

Awesome first sentence. Or question!

Steroids were demonized because the Russians and East Germans were using them on their Olympic athletes and there research was way ahead of the western countries. So by demonizing steroids, it discredited the Soviet athletes and branded them as cheats.

I agree with the legal issue. I wasn't to stay on the right side of the law. And in some countries some compounds are legal to buy, sell, and use. That said, it does rub me wrong when someone says that anyone taking steroids is a cheater. First of all, cheater means cheating ... cheating on what?? Cheating implies malicious behavior. I am faithful to my wife, am not in any competition, and not trying to pass off any academic work as my own. So, again, cheating on what??
"Oh because you are getting the gains without doing the work." So rock climbers that use chalk to keep their hands dry are cheating. Swimmers that use caps and swimming suits to increase their hydrodynamic profile are cheating. Runners that use the newest and latest running shoe are cheating.
Sweaty hands, hydrodynamic drag, and running gait are natural.

It is also interesting that the ones that are the most opposed to Perfomance Enhancing Drugs (as opposed to Performance Enhancing Devices) are the ones that know the least about these substances and choose not to use them. Interestingly they are also the ones that think that The Rock, Sylvester Stallone, and Simeon Panda are natural, and that believe that Kali Muscle got that big by working out (drug free) in prison.

I understand wanting to see how far you can get naturally (with creatine and supplements??), but after a certain age, that pursuit is fruitless because your T levels drop consistently, year after year, no matter how strict your diet is or how good your training is.

So back the beginning: Awesome first sentence. Or question!

 

[Gwyndane]

natural is such a trite word

why does it matter anyways... u should rather be considered about whats healthy and whats not

 

[UncleSarm]

In my opinion, it illustrates how pointless and meaningless such s subjective title is in reality. I'm not going to delude myself, I'm not natty because I have some moral objection to taking gear, I'm natty because of the potential health/safety concerns/issues that come with use. As I said, if there was some magical non-natty pill that caused incredible gains in strength and size, but had no side effects or risks associated with it, I feel it'd be rather foolish not to use it, if you aren't competing in an organization/league that prohibits it.

You are 100% right. However, keep in mind that there are potential health/safety concerns/issues with NOT taking a compound. Take a look at this article: The IGF-1 Trade-Off: Performance vs. Longevity
The title pretty much says it all. If you increase your IGF-1 levels (artificially) you increase your quality of life in later years, but you decrease your lifespan. Lower levels of IGF-1 increase your lifespan, but now you're going to suffer from all sorts of nasty stuff.
And here is the punchline. Let's assume that you want to go for quality of life, it is easier to work on preventing problems, rather than trying to fix them.
If exercise is a solution to obesity, it's easier to start exercising early, rather than waiting to be obese and having diabetic problems.

Of course it all comes down to use vs abuse. Even Tylenol will harm you if used the wrong way.

Edit: Men with Low Testosterone More Likely to Die

 

[muscleupcrohn]

You are 100% right. However, keep in mind that there are potential health/safety concerns/issues with NOT taking a compound. Take a look at this article: The IGF-1 Trade-Off: Performance vs. Longevity
The title pretty much says it all. If you increase your IGF-1 levels (artificially) you increase your quality of life in later years, but you decrease your lifespan. Lower levels of IGF-1 increase your lifespan, but now you're going to suffer from all sorts of nasty stuff.
And here is the punchline. Let's assume that you want to go for quality of life, it is easier to work on preventing problems, rather than trying to fix them.
If exercise is a solution to obesity, it's easier to start exercising early, rather than waiting to be obese and having diabetic problems.

Of course it all comes down to use vs abuse. Even Tylenol will harm you if used the wrong way.

Edit: Men with Low Testosterone More Likely to Die

I'd say that the benefits of test and/or IGF-1 use with older age are more a result of essentially restoring/creating ideal/optimal levels of hormones (health oriented), as opposed to mega-dosing them to the level pro body builders do (purely performance oriented), which is obviously not "healthy," especially if you start this from a young age.

For a healthy young (20-30s) person, I'd say that there are significantly more potential health/safety issues associated with using test/IGF-1 than not using it, obviously. Things change with age, but I'm young and natty for now.

 

[BlockBuilder]

Wow talk about people over complicating an issue. If it suppresses you it's not natural. Any Sarm, peptide, DS, PH, AAS, and of course the fat burners like Clen and IMO ephedrine even is not natural. At least that's how I see it. Ive heard guys say if you inject under 500 mg test you're natural lol. Get real that's pathetic you aren't natural even if you're on TRT you aren't natural. I just got done with an ostarine, dermacrine, 11 ketotestosterone run. Mild compounds but I'm certainly not claiming natural even though I'm not some huge muscle monster. It's a hit to the ego because then people say "why don't you look like the guys in the magazines then." Meh whatever people are ignorant. However I personally refuse to lie if asked about hormone use

 

[Driven2lift]

If you put hormones into your body, or something designed to convert and in any way bind with T receptors, it IS unnatural IMO, by BB standards

=AAS, PH, SARMS, things designed to convert upon ingestion, etc

 

[UncleSarm]

If you put hormones into your body, or something designed to convert and in any way bind with T receptors, it IS unnatural IMO, by BB standards

=AAS, PH, SARMS, things designed to convert upon ingestion, etc

If you take MK-677/Ibutamoren are you natty or not? MK-677 does not convert or in any way bind with T receptors.

 

[Driven2lift]

^this is why something will always be on the market

So many loopholes lol.

I never cared to look much into that MOA, but as it itself is also not naturally occurring that crosses a lot of people's line right there.
Not necessarily mine, I use ephedrine HCl.

 

[HIT4ME]

I'm gonna a steal a line from the Hodge Twins. Do whatever the F#$@ you want!

 

[Driven2lift]

^ sure that's not Rich Piana?

 

[HIT4ME]

^ sure that's not Rich Piana?

Not sure of anything.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Rabbit Hole question of the Millennium I'd rather eat GMO Broccoli or Bananas, than a Poison Ivy salad. Are Extracts Natty? Can't get that much actives by eating the roots/leaves before getting full/throwing up for a lot of them. Stimulants? What was the one supposedly based on Geraniums? No one ever answered where they stored the 10,000 tons of Geranium needed for the amounts in each bottle.

I'd say if you can't grow, pick, pluck, or kill - and eat it as is with some cooking... it ain't "Natty" That includes the 500lbs of bugs needed for an Ecdy product, or the 200lbs of Mushroom Fungus needed for a whatever one that product is. No one could gather and eat that much daily in the real world.

But I could care less - Non -Natural is the reason I don't freeze in the winter, get to LA in 40 mins, and (hopefully) live to at least my 90's

 

[halfahardon]

What products? Ingredients? I'd like to stay natty as far as my genes can take me and I don't plan on taking anything for the foreseeable future as I've been lifting for less than 2 years. I'm just curious as to what has convinced you guys ton either stay natty or go past it.

Edit: wtf autocorrect really ****ed up the title lol

Imo, low doses of anadrol stacked with testosterone cypionate are considered natty

 

[cheftepesh1]

Just a thought as before the ban and in the 1980s and 1990 a lot more was main stream. So who's to say what makes sense. What we used back then and now is different.

 

[UncleSarm]

Rabbit Hole question of the Millennium I'd rather eat GMO Broccoli or Bananas, than a Poison Ivy salad. Are Extracts Natty? Can't get that much actives by eating the roots/leaves before getting full/throwing up for a lot of them. Stimulants? What was the one supposedly based on Geraniums? No one ever answered where they stored the 10,000 tons of Geranium needed for the amounts in each bottle.

I'd say if you can't grow, pick, pluck, or kill - and eat it as is with some cooking... it ain't "Natty" That includes the 500lbs of bugs needed for an Ecdy product, or the 200lbs of Mushroom Fungus needed for a whatever one that product is. No one could gather and eat that much daily in the real world.

But I could care less - Non -Natural is the reason I don't freeze in the winter, get to LA in 40 mins, and (hopefully) live to at least my 90's

Sounds like a plan! In fact, I plan to live until my late 90's and become an ornery pain in the ass.

 

[MrKleen73]

When people give me crap on the safety part I remind them that natty is NO SAFER... Black Mamba venom is natural and will kill you within a minute. Some berries will kill you, lots of natural things will kill you.

 

[UncleSarm]

Are you still Natty if you run Ostarine with no SERM and otc pct?

Of course. And I have the log to prove it.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

When people give me crap on the safety part I remind them that natty is NO SAFER... Black Mamba venom is natural and will kill you within a minute. Some berries will kill you, lots of natural things will kill you.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but black mamba venom isn't typically sold as an OTC supplement in your local nutrition store, or even online really. I think it is safe to say that there are more risks associated with using non-natty "supplements" than natty supplements (as in finished products sold by companies). Of course, there are natural substances that are dangerous/deadly, but they aren't commonly used as ergogenic supplements to build muscle.

 

[BlackTiger22]

nice thread

 

[christ83189]

When people give me crap on the safety part I remind them that natty is NO SAFER... Black Mamba venom is natural and will kill you within a minute. Some berries will kill you, lots of natural things will kill you.

Lol'd at this

 

[HIT4ME]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but black mamba venom isn't typically sold as an OTC supplement in your local nutrition store, or even online really. I think it is safe to say that there are more risks associated with using non-natty "supplements" than natty supplements (as in finished products sold by companies). Of course, there are natural substances that are dangerous/deadly, but they aren't commonly used as ergogenic supplements to build muscle.

Oh really? What do you call this? Are you saying that this product contains NO black mamba venom?

 

[MrKleen73]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but black mamba venom isn't typically sold as an OTC supplement in your local nutrition store, or even online really. I think it is safe to say that there are more risks associated with using non-natty "supplements" than natty supplements (as in finished products sold by companies). Of course, there are natural substances that are dangerous/deadly, but they aren't commonly used as ergogenic supplements to build muscle.

True, but on that same note I wouldn't say there aren't many anabolics being sold that are TRULY dangerous, unless abused which all things become unhealthy when abused even vitamin c. It is just when I see people bring up safety and natty as if they are mutually exclusive it frustrates me. People become so polarized due to inaccurate perceptions.

Lol'd at this

Oh really? What do you call this? Are you saying that this product contains NO black mamba venom?

View attachment 133866

I actually laughed out loud at that!