Ashwagandha (Ksm-66) & Rhodiola Rosea

[SmokeTimer]

Been feeling super run down, don't remember the last time I slept good
plus wake up feeling like I've been hit by a mac truck.

Tired during the day, but feel kinda tried/wired at night making
it hard to sleep.

I Think my adrenal/cortisol levels are shot.

Taking some time off of heavy training and doing a deload for a week or two.

I've heard some good things about these 2.

Plan on getting the Rhodiola Rosea 500mg from NOW and the KSM-66 from Jarrow.

What are your thoughts on an effective way to dose these?

Can they be taken together? Something like 1 Rhodiola and 1 ksm-66 in the morning
then 1 ksm-66 before bed or would it be best to take them separate?

 

[BeardedBreast]

I take a cap of each in the am and right before bed. It's made a big difference in my mood and sustained energy at work.

 

[rhoadx]

I take rhodiola and ashwaganda first thing in the morning, then ashwaganda again midday. Ashwaganda can interfere with some people's sleep if taken too close to bedtime IIRC

 

[SmokeTimer]

How are you guys feeling taking the 2 together like that? I've read rhodiola has more of a stimulant effect while ashwaganda has more of a smoother claiming effect.

It sounds like it would be one hell of a ride having both effects at the same time lol.

I was thinking something like
1 500mg rhodiola at 9am when I wake up

Another 500mg around 1pm

300mg Ashwaganda at 8 with dinner

Then the other 300 when going to bed (11pm) along with some magnesium.

Thoughts?

 

[booneman77]

Personally I like ash earlier in my day vs bed so I can enjoy the mood boost. Never felt like it impacted sleep good or bad.

For cortisol control you could certainly add in reduce xt. It's a staple for me when I'm either in a stressful time or pct

 

[jgntyce]

I use ashwaganda, evomuse ammo, and the old BPS Adrenosurge. Definitely helps combat that run down feeling.

 

[kisaj]

They are perfect together. I would recommend Relora based on your description of what you experience because it definitely sounds cortisol related.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Look into Seriphos (Interplexus) for Cortisol as well.

 

[kisaj]

That is an interesting product to me. I've never taken it and don't have any experience with anyone that has but many people seem to have good results.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

That is an interesting product to me. I've never taken it and don't have any experience with anyone that has but many people seem to have good results.

I grabbed a bottle after a little research - seems to be thought of by some MDs as better than Phosphatidyl Serine and it's cheaper. I didn't really have a problem with Cortisol induced awakenings at 1-2-3 AM, but I did routinely wake up (fully refreshed mind you) at 4-5 AM. Now I seem to be staying asleep until 6-7 AM??? (I still get up once for my old man piss, but I'm out like a light when finished). At one cap/night, that's 100 nights for ~$15... I may re-buy. Usual caveats apply - always do GABA, L-Theanine, 5-HTP, Melatonin, ZMA, MK-677, so.....

 

[Chefdeez]

Nothing works better than evomuse abliderate advanced for cortisol. That and some ksm-66 has me looking leaner and feeling great.

 

[stan08]

would rhodiola be better than ashwagandha or bacopa for mild depression and daily tiredness? would higher doses of rhodiola be better for not increasing anxiety too? noticed some on here mention that lower doses provide more energy.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

would rhodiola be better than ashwagandha or bacopa for mild depression and daily tiredness? would higher doses of rhodiola be better for not increasing anxiety too? noticed some on here mention that lower doses provide more energy.

I'd say that rhodiola would be the best of the three for "daily tiredness" or fatigue. I'd say that ashwagandha is the best of the three for reducing anxiety, and bacopa for improving memory (although it does have some anti-anxiety effects), although both rhodiola and ashwagandha seem to have potential for helping with depressive symptoms.

One study on rhodiola concluded

standardized extract SHR-5 shows anti-depressive potency in patients with mild to moderate depression when administered in dosages of either 340 or 680 mg/day over a 6-week period.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17990195

A second study concluded

Although R. rosea produced less antidepressant effect versus sertraline, it also resulted in significantly fewer adverse events and was better tolerated. These findings suggest that R. rosea, although less effective than sertraline, may possess a more favorable risk to benefit ratio for individuals with mild to moderate depression...

Despite the limitations of this preliminary study, the present findings suggest that R. rosea may possess modest antidepressant effects in some patients with mild to moderate MDD. R.rosea may be better tolerated than sertraline, which suggests its potential as a treatment alternative for patients who are intolerant to the adverse effects of conventional anti-depressants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4385215/

On the other hand, ashwagandha has a lot of research showing it can reduce anxiety and depression symptoms in persons with generalized anxiety disorder.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958355/

 

[stan08]

I'd say that rhodiola would be the best of the three for "daily tiredness" or fatigue. I'd say that ashwagandha is the best of the three for reducing anxiety, and bacopa for improving memory (although it does have some anti-anxiety effects), although both rhodiola and ashwagandha seem to have potential for helping with depressive symptoms.

great response! thank you for the links.

so a combination of maybe rhodiola in the morning or afternoon to help with fatigue and depression, and ashwagandha before bed to help with depression and improve sleep, would be good?

 

[SmokeTimer]

Cool I'm going to have to check out some of those other supplements later and see how they work.

I have Reduce Xt and been using it for about 6 days now.

I've had profound results using it. Those aches and pains I was always having has disappeared, and I wake up feeling more refreshed than I previously was.

Still have some problems maintaining in the morning, but at night/bed time it has made a difference.

When I experienced that, that is when I knew the problems I'm having have to be coming from cortisol... But maybe my cortisol is all crazy because my adrenal is shot. Low cortisol in the mornings, and high at night.

I'm using the rhodiola and ashwagandha to restore everything back to healthily levels

After reading through everything

- both in the morning together maybe with some vit c

- ksm-66 before bed with mag

Should I stop using the reduce xt and let the rhodiola/ksm-66 work its magic? Not 100% sure wether RXT would help or interfere with what they're trying to do.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

great response! thank you for the links.

so a combination of maybe rhodiola in the morning or afternoon to help with fatigue and depression, and ashwagandha before bed to help with depression and improve sleep, would be good?

I'd take the rhodiola in the morning or afternoon (it's possible it could keep you up if you took it late at night), and the ashwagandha whenever you want. For most people, it's just calming, but for some people, it makes them tired, while others seem to get energy from it. Perhaps try both ways (morning/afternoon and before bed) and see which you prefer.

 

[SmokeTimer]

great response! thank you for the links.

so a combination of maybe rhodiola in the morning or afternoon to help with fatigue and depression, and ashwagandha before bed to help with depression and improve sleep, would be good?

Somebody else may chime in, but from what I've read.

Taking both together can have a really good synergy affect.

Meaning the rhodiola may cause some people to get all jittery and the ashwagandha can help elimate that while still getting the energy/benefits of both herbs.

I'm going to be stacking it myself that way and see what happens

 

[stan08]

I'd take the rhodiola in the morning or afternoon (it's possible it could keep you up if you took it late at night), and the ashwagandha whenever you want. For most people, it's just calming, but for some people, it makes them tired, while others seem to get energy from it. Perhaps try both ways (morning/afternoon and before bed) and see which you prefer.

i tend to get really tired from anything that affects gaba. for example, even just 100 mg of theanine makes me very sleepy. so, taking ashwagandha at night might work better for me. if i do that, would i still experience reduced anxiety from it the next day or would i have to take it in the morning too for that benefit?

is there a dose of rhodiola that works best for depression and reducing anxiety? i have a low stim tolerance and worry it might increase my anxiety. i was suprised how much better a very low dose of sertraline was than rhodiola in that study you posted, even though there was a lot less side effects from the rhodiola.

 

[stan08]

Somebody else may chime in, but from what I've read.

Taking both together can have a really good synergy affect.

Meaning the rhodiola may cause some people to get all jittery and the ashwagandha can help elimate that while still getting the energy/benefits of both herbs.

I'm going to be stacking it myself that way and see what happens

cool. please post your thoughts on the stack after you've tried it. for now i'll probably stick with trying them seperate and consider stacking them later.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Somebody else may chime in, but from what I've read.

Taking both together can have a really good synergy affect.

Meaning the rhodiola may cause some people to get all jittery and the ashwagandha can help elimate that while still getting the energy/benefits of both herbs.

I'm going to be stacking it myself that way and see what happens

I personally think that they go well together. For me, the rhodiola gives me some energy (as well as reduces fatigue), while ashwagandha is calming and reduces stress/anxiety. I don't really get tired with ashwagandha (although I think my eyes do feel a bit heavy for a few minutes when I take a high dose), but I could see how the energy from rhodiola could help if ashwagandha makes you a bit too calm or tired. I'd also say that caffeine goes well with ashwagandha (or theanine).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

i tend to get really tired from anything that affects gaba. for example, even just 100 mg of theanine makes me very sleepy. so, taking ashwagandha at night might work better for me. if i do that, would i still experience reduced anxiety from it the next day or would i have to take it in the morning too for that benefit?

is there a dose of rhodiola that works best for depression and reducing anxiety? i have a low stim tolerance and worry it might increase my anxiety. i was suprised how much better a very low dose of sertraline was than rhodiola in that study you posted, even though there was a lot less side effects from the rhodiola.

With ashwagandha, I feel that it's more important to just get the daily dose in; it seems to be more of a daily benefit than an acute benefit, although it does help with stress/anxiety pretty quickly.

For rhodiola, the studies used 340-680mg SHR-5 rhodiola, which is standardized to ~3% rosavin and ~2-2.5% salidroside (although this study noted ~3% rosavin and ~2% salidroside). SHR-5 seems a bit hard to find at the moment, and is likely more expensive, so I'd go with at least 340 of a 3&2% extract (they're out there, but harder to find than a 3&1% extract) or a 3&1% extract.

One of the rhodiola studies used the following dosing scheme (each capsule had 340mg SHR-5):

Study drug was administered in a dose-escalation fashion. Dosage was initiated at one capsule daily for the first 2 weeks. Patients with ≤ 50% reduction in the 17-item HAM-D score (versus baseline) after 2 weeks of therapy had their dose increased to 2 capsules daily during weeks 3 and 4 of therapy. Patients who continued to have ≤ 50% reduction in HAM-D score (versus baseline) after 4 weeks of therapy had their dose increased to 3 capsules daily during weeks 5 and 6 of therapy. Patients who continued to have ≤ 50% reduction in HAM-D score (versus baseline) after 6 weeks of therapy had their dose increased to 4 capsules daily during study weeks 6 through 12 of therapy. Patients who were unable to tolerate the assigned dose of study drug had their dosage reduced to a minimum of 1 capsule daily. Patients who were unable to tolerate 1 capsule daily were discontinued from the trial. Outcome measurements were obtained at baseline and after 2, 4, 6, 8 and 12 weeks of treatment.

Perhaps try dosing in a similar way?

 

[stan08]

With ashwagandha, I feel that it's more important to just get the daily dose in; it seems to be more of a daily benefit than an acute benefit, although it does help with stress/anxiety pretty quickly.

For rhodiola, the studies used 340-680mg SHR-5 rhodiola, which is standardized to ~3% rosavin and ~2-2.5% salidroside (although this study noted ~3% rosavin and ~2% salidroside). SHR-5 seems a bit hard to find at the moment, and is likely more expensive, so I'd go with at least 340 of a 3&2% extract (they're out there, but harder to find than a 3&1% extract) or a 3&1% extract.

One of the rhodiola studies used the following dosing scheme (each capsule had 340mg SHR-5):

Perhaps try dosing in a similar way?

good to hear. i'll just try taking ashwagandha at night with magnesium then. a little extra help with sleep would be nice.

they worked up to some pretty high doses of rhodiola in that study. i was thinking about picking up gaia rhodiola since i know they carry that brand. so assuming my math is correct, to do something similar i'd be taking 2 to 6 capsules daily since it's 120 mg standardized to 5% rosavins? maybe i missed it but were they only taking it in the morning or splitting the doses in the morning and afternoon?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Just an FYI:

As Rhodiola has been shown to have a bell-curve response before, it is recommended to not exceed the aforementioned 680mg dosage as higher doses may be ineffective.

 

[booneman77]

Cool I'm going to have to check out some of those other supplements later and see how they work.

I have Reduce Xt and been using it for about 6 days now.

I've had profound results using it. Those aches and pains I was always having has disappeared, and I wake up feeling more refreshed than I previously was.

Still have some problems maintaining in the morning, but at night/bed time it has made a difference.

When I experienced that, that is when I knew the problems I'm having have to be coming from cortisol... But maybe my cortisol is all crazy because my adrenal is shot. Low cortisol in the mornings, and high at night.

I'm using the rhodiola and ashwagandha to restore everything back to healthily levels

After reading through everything

- both in the morning together maybe with some vit c

- ksm-66 before bed with mag

Should I stop using the reduce xt and let the rhodiola/ksm-66 work its magic? Not 100% sure wether RXT would help or interfere with what they're trying to do.

theres no overlap so keep using all 3 if you like

 

[SmokeTimer]

Just an FYI:

Yup I saw that also. I've changed from 2 doses to only 1 in the morning.

 

[SmokeTimer]

theres no overlap so keep using all 3 if you like

Awesome, just to be on the safe side I'll probably use 1 reduce xt at night with ashwagandha

 

[SmokeTimer]

Yo just to give whoever a heads up on this stuff, it rocks.

I'm feeling better and my sleep had defiantly improved. I'm taking the ksm-66 and Rhodiola in the morning and the with another dose of the ksm-66 before bed.

Along with increasing my calories and laying off going heavy for the last month and a half.

I'm guessing my body needed the rest.

Do these need to be cycled or can be taken long term?

 

[kisaj]

They can be taken long term. However, you'll notice if you do cycle, that the effects are more pronounced when returning.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Adrenosurge my BPS or adrenal reset by CTD labs are godsends! just CTD labs has a bit of pregnenolone so not perfect for pct

 

[SmokeTimer]

They can be taken long term. However, you'll notice if you do cycle, that the effects are more pronounced when returning.

If I was to cycle what would be the optimal way to do so? I've heard recommendations from anywhere to 5 days on 2 days off, to 8 weeks on 4 weeks off, 12 weeks on 2 weeks off.

Personally I was thinking somewhere in the middle range of 8 weeks on 2 weeks off.

Since it's an adaptogen and it adopts to what your body needs, some believe that cycling off is not needed and the effects they have stay the same. At least with the ashwanganda not 100% sure on the rhodiola.

Although from what I have seen. Studies for the ashwanganda haven't been done past the 12 week mark.

You say the effects would be more pronounced if cycled. Can you explain more on this?

 

[SmokeTimer]

Adrenosurge my BPS or adrenal reset by CTD labs are godsends! just CTD labs has a bit of pregnenolone so not perfect for pct

Cool man, I'll take a look into those. Always good to have options.

 

[kisaj]

I personally don't think there would be an optimal way as I don't feel they need to be cycled, so you can choose. For me, my unintended cycles are generally around the time I run out of a bottle and don't reorder right away, so I may have a week or two gap between.

When I say the effects are more pronounced, I am primarily talking about rhodiola. Over time, the sustaining energy becomes unnoticed because you adapt and it's just there. Stop taking it for a bit and take it again and you'll notice the energy boost.

 

[SmokeTimer]

Gotcha, thanks a ton!