Chronic fatigue

[clayboy_123]

Is high dosemethyl b-12 or high dose vitamin d or something else more helpful?

 

[MMAguy]

Can you give more information? Why and for what?
I take vitamin d3 10,000 IU daily and a multivitamin. That's all you need.

 

[Synapsin]

Unfortunately chronic fatigue syndrome is not real. What symptoms make you think you have chronic fatigue syndrome?

 

[clayboy_123]

Always run down and tired and worse as the day goes on. Thinking gets cloudier, energy gets lower,etc. Multis don't help, caffeine is like water .

 

[Synapsin]

Always run down and tired and worse as the day goes on. Thinking gets cloudier, energy gets lower,etc. Multis don't help, caffeine is like water .

How much caffeine a day are you consuming?

 

[clayboy_123]

Labs show low d, but d seems to increase anxiety somewhat

 

[clayboy_123]

600mg caff pills

 

[Synapsin]

600mg caff pills

Hmm, not a terrible amount if spread out through out the day. How is your sleep, are you experiencing anxiety (minus from the vitamin D), etc?

 

[abudabu]

Hi Synapsin.
What makes you think cfs/fibro is not real.
To my knowledge its some sort of malfunction ( in our body) that doctors, simply can't find the root.
But still people suffer from CFS , and believe me it is bad .

 

[MMAguy]

Look into L-dopa (velvet bean extract 99%) has to be pure 99%. It's a dopamine precursor. Mood, sex drive, motivation, focus and even some GH properties to it.

 

[abudabu]

Hi Synapsin.
What makes you think cfs/fibro is not real.
To my knowledge its some sort of malfunction ( in our body) that doctors, simply can't find the root.
But still people suffer from CFS , and believe me it is bad .

 

[rhoadx]

Have you tried any adaptogens? Rhodiola, ashwaganda could be helpful

 

[LeanEngineer]

How well is your sleep at night? That could be it. You could try giving a sleep aid a shot. For example phenibut xt is a good one and sounds like it would help you out.

 

[mattierocks]

What are your testosterone levels? When mine were low that sounds a lot like how I felt.

 

[clayboy_123]

Test levels are fine. Have tried Rhodiola . Nothing really helps. Haven't tried sleep aid though .

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Unfortunately chronic fatigue syndrome is not real. What symptoms make you think you have chronic fatigue syndrome?

This study thinks it is;
Exploratory open label, randomized study of acetyl- and propionylcarnitine in chronic fatigue syndrome

In an open, randomized fashion we compared 2 g/d acetyl-L-carnitine, 2 g/d propionyl-L-carnitine, and its combination in 3 groups of 30 CFS patients during 24 weeks. Effects were rated by clinical global impression of change. Secondary endpoints were the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory, McGill Pain Questionnaire, and the Stroop attention concentration test. Scores were assessed 8 weeks before treatment; at randomization; after 8, 16, and 24 weeks of treatment; and 2 weeks later.

Acetylcarnitine and propionylcarnitine showed beneficial effect on fatigue and attention concentration. Less improvement was found by the combined treatment. Acetylcarnitine had main effect on mental fatigue and propionylcarnitine on general fatigue.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15039515
Either way, ALCAR could be useful here, along with rhodiola and potentially ashwagandha. Perhaps some glycine before bed as well.

 

[NurseGray]

Hi Synapsin.
What makes you think cfs/fibro is not real.
To my knowledge its some sort of malfunction ( in our body) that doctors, simply can't find the root.
But still people suffer from CFS , and believe me it is bad .

Im not knocking your symptoms. Your symptoms are real. BUT this diagnosis falls under the same category as FibroMyalgia. Most I've encountered suffering Fibro. have been patients that are seeking medication which in your case wouldn't be an issue.

 

[NurseGray]

How well is your sleep at night? That could be it. You could try giving a sleep aid a shot. For example phenibut xt is a good one and sounds like it would help you out.

Phenibut is a great sleep aid. Just start with smaller doses. It flat knock me out my first time. Sleep issues could account for what your going through. You could be tossing an turning during the night and not even realizing.

 

[Chefdeez]

Sounds like it could be anxiety/depression. My wife gets like this sometimes for no reason at all and feels like sleeping for days at a time. She got on some SSRI and is much, much better. I'd look into rhodiola and ksm-66 as a start and see how you feel.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Have you:

Taken 2 weeks off from all lifting/cardio? (just slow walk if you want).

Taken 2 weeks off (or more) from all stimulants?

Eating at or slightly above maintenance calories?

Those are free, and the first things I'd try.

After that, a *cheap* way to better sleep: 1g GABA, 50mg L-Theanine, 50mg 5-HTP, 2.5mg Melatonin, ZMA. All available in bulk, some at you local warehouse store.

 

[HIT4ME]

I think some of the advice you have been given here is somewhat helpful. At times I feel really run down and tired for long stretches. What I have found was that for a LONG time I was looking for something to wake me up - I would take 800 mg of caffeine at a time and feel nothing. I could take 2 grams of caffeine in a day and nothing.

Then, I started to realize, my problem was that I was tired - I should be sleeping. I wasn't sleeping right/enough. So I started focusing on sleeping longer, getting better quality of sleep, etc. I feel that something as simple as ZMA on a regular basis has helped dramatically. As was recommended above, phenibut is also very useful, but I only use it 1-3 times per week and limit it. GABA itself in my mind, is actually more mild than phenibut, but I feel like it is the most useful for more people - I've noticed that people like kisaj don't like phenibut and I really don't think picamilon does a thing for me, but GABA works very well for both of us it seems - just as an example.

As far as energy, try to cut back on the stimulants. I rely on Acetyl-L-Carnitine and Tyronsine or N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine for subtle energy and mental focus. I think these two aminos are very under rated - everyone wants to take noopept or racetams, or some magic thing for brains - but these two aminos at 1-2.5 grams per day seem to do wonders for me.

And finally, something I've found in the last week, so take this with a grain of salt. There are all these crazy vitamin C theories out there - and then there are people who say that you only need 90 mg/day. I'm somewhere in between and really don't believe either of those sides. This week, everyone around me got the flu and I increased my vitamin C and despite having minor symptoms, I feel good and my energy is actually increased. Taking 3-5 grams of vitamin C is pretty safe as long as you consume plenty of water - try that.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I think some of the advice you have been given here is somewhat helpful. At times I feel really run down and tired for long stretches. What I have found was that for a LONG time I was looking for something to wake me up - I would take 800 mg of caffeine at a time and feel nothing. I could take 2 grams of caffeine in a day and nothing.

Then, I started to realize, my problem was that I was tired - I should be sleeping. I wasn't sleeping right/enough. So I started focusing on sleeping longer, getting better quality of sleep, etc. I feel that something as simple as ZMA on a regular basis has helped dramatically. As was recommended above, phenibut is also very useful, but I only use it 1-3 times per week and limit it. GABA itself in my mind, is actually more mild than phenibut, but I feel like it is the most useful for more people - I've noticed that people like kisaj don't like phenibut and I really don't think picamilon does a thing for me, but GABA works very well for both of us it seems - just as an example.

As far as energy, try to cut back on the stimulants. I rely on Acetyl-L-Carnitine and Tyronsine or N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine for subtle energy and mental focus. I think these two aminos are very under rated - everyone wants to take noopept or racetams, or some magic thing for brains - but these two aminos at 1-2.5 grams per day seem to do wonders for me.

And finally, something I've found in the last week, so take this with a grain of salt. There are all these crazy vitamin C theories out there - and then there are people who say that you only need 90 mg/day. I'm somewhere in between and really don't believe either of those sides. This week, everyone around me got the flu and I increased my vitamin C and despite having minor symptoms, I feel good and my energy is actually increased. Taking 3-5 grams of vitamin C is pretty safe as long as you consume plenty of water - try that.

Do you prefer N-Acetyl L-tyrosine over l-tyrosine? Everything I've seen points towards l-tyrosine being more effective (plus all of the studies showing benefits during periods of stress seem to use l-tyrosine).

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking higher doses of Vitamin C. I wouldn't want to mega-dose it right around workouts, but otherwise it seems fine, and may be beneficial in dealing with colds.

Overall, reported flu and cold symptoms in the test group decreased 85% compared with the control group after the administration of megadose Vitamin C.

Vitamin C in megadoses administered before or after the appearance of cold and flu symptoms relieved and prevented the symptoms in the test population compared with the control group.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543583

 

[ddfox]

Someone else may be able to chime in but I believe the N Acetyl has a higher bioavailability & is far less susceptible to depletion through urination.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Someone else may be able to chime in but I believe the N Acetyl has a higher bioavailability & is far less susceptible to depletion through urination.

I think it may have been the other way around. I remember cooper talking about it.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/233429-anyone-take-these-2.html

 

[cheftepesh1]

Have you:

Taken 2 weeks off from all lifting/cardio? (just slow walk if you want).

Taken 2 weeks off (or more) from all stimulants?

Eating at or slightly above maintenance calories?

Those are free, and the first things I'd try.

After that, a *cheap* way to better sleep: 1g GABA, 50mg L-Theanine, 50mg 5-HTP, 2.5mg Melatonin, ZMA. All available in bulk, some at you local warehouse store.

This is great advice. I have done the b-12 and complex shots and the really did nothing for me. Rest is really the only way to fix this problem.

 

[HIT4ME]

Do you prefer N-Acetyl L-tyrosine over l-tyrosine? Everything I've seen points towards l-tyrosine being more effective (plus all of the studies showing benefits during periods of stress seem to use l-tyrosine).

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking higher doses of Vitamin C. I wouldn't want to mega-dose it right around workouts, but otherwise it seems fine, and may be beneficial in dealing with colds.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543583

Someone else may be able to chime in but I believe the N Acetyl has a higher bioavailability & is far less susceptible to depletion through urination.

I think it may have been the other way around. I remember cooper talking about it.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/233429-anyone-take-these-2.html

When I first got into this, I read some information that NALT was more bioavailable, and I had a sweet deal on some NALT powder and bought it. It's all I've ever used for this, because I haven't run through the powder that I bought the first time around.

Then I read that Coop thought tyrosine was probably more effective, and did more research, and I think he may be right, so the next time around I'm giving that a shot. I think ALCAR is still superior for these purposes, maybe straight tyrosine will change my mind.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

When I first got into this, I read some information that NALT was more bioavailable, and I had a sweet deal on some NALT powder and bought it. It's all I've ever used for this, because I haven't run through the powder that I bought the first time around.

Then I read that Coop thought tyrosine was probably more effective, and did more research, and I think he may be right, so the next time around I'm giving that a shot. I think ALCAR is still superior for these purposes, maybe straight tyrosine will change my mind.

Don't get me wrong, I really like ALCAR (and there's some nice research on it), and I'm not saying that l-tyrosine is superior to ALCAR, only that it seems probable that l-tyrosine is better than NALT. I don't see anything wrong with taking ALCAR and l-tyrosine.

 

[HIT4ME]

Yes, I agree....now that I've done more research.

 

[clayboy_123]

So vitamin c? Not vitamin d?

 

[HIT4ME]

So vitamin c? Not vitamin d?

Vitamin D can be healthy, but the vitamin C crazies suggest that doses up to hundreds of grams can have a purpose. I always take 4-6 grams of vitamin C every day and I haven't been sick in 3 years since I started doing that. Until last week.

Everyone in my family has a harsh flu and everyone has spent a week in bed. I decided to take up to 60 grams/day when I started having symptoms and I'm the only one who hasn't become confined to a bed, but I am still pretty sick and tired.

Having said that, I noticed that even being sick I was less tired and needed less sleep while taking 30+ grams.

Keep in mind those doses will almost certainly cause diarhea like you won't believe. Start slow and work up. I wouldn't stay at 30 grams forever. I think 4-6 grams is a good dose. But I think you will notice in a couple days if 30 grams is doing anything.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

So vitamin c? Not vitamin d?

I believe there is more data on higher doses of Vitamin D being beneficial vs higher doses of Vitamin C. I only get my C from food (mainly Baby Spinach, Bell Peppers, and Green Beans) and what ever is in my Multi, but I do take a 5000iu pill of D - and I haven't been sick since December 2008. But it doesn't really matter with C, you'll just piss any excess out, so trying it won't hurt. But I'd definitely recommend properly dosed Vitamin D - and the more body fat that you have, the more D you need (Check SuppVersity).

 

[clayboy_123]

I'm guessing that a multi is better for chronic fatigue Than vitamin c or vitamin d or even something like dhea?

 

[thescience]

If the vitamin d tested low, u should take it; thats a giveaway. Anxiety is good if it makes u feel more alert and less run down. Vitamin d will trigger your genetics to kill pathogens, a possible cause of fibro symptoms. The anxiety could be caused by something else, with the vit d making u healthier and bringing the symptom to the forefront. Regardless, u tested low so stop screwing around and take it. U can add albion calcium for a calming effect. People low in calcium will take 3 albion calcium pills three times a day. Albion magnesium may be advised

A world renowned thyroid specialist, dr brownstein, said he had successfully treated fibromyalgia in people who needed thyroid hormone and in some cases thyroid and cortisol therapy. He mentioned chronic infection that cleared up with the cortisol/thyroid therapy.

Brain fog is a very distinct symptom of hypothyroid. Other symptoms include low body temperature, dry skin/hair, constipation.... I forget the others.

Not sure where youre going with the b12, but if u suspect anemia, u should round out the protocall with methyfolate (in case u cant methylize your folate), albion iron ( only g.r.a.s. Certified iron on the market, does not require vitamin c), and megafoods b complex

I suspect the symptoms of feeling run down/achey can occur in different individuals for totally different reasons. Just like puking is one reaction to many different sorts of causes (a virus, bacterial food poisoning, jamming your finger down your throat etc)
. Regardless, these symptoms are real even if the predication of "fibromyalgia" is vague

 

[PharmAnalyst]

Depending on the severity of the situation and how long its been going on, I would highly recommend checking with a medical professional. Brain fog, fatigue, etc. could be relatively benign due to transient circumstances, hypothyroid (as others have stated) or possibly MS. Hopefully its nothing serious!

 

[georgetown]

How are your iron levels? Low hemoglobin from iron deficiency contributes to severe fatigue and supplementing with iron helps tremendously if that is the problem

 

[The_Old_Guy]

How are your iron levels? Low hemoglobin from iron deficiency contributes to severe fatigue and supplementing with iron helps tremendously if that is the problem

If you want to do it a "safer" way for guys - get a 12" Cast Iron Pan from Wal-Mart (Lodge) and cook in that, and start eating a 1/2 Cup of their "Grape Nuts" (GV Crunchy Nuts) cereal per day - it's 90% of the RDA for Iron.

 

[Piston Honda]

Get a sleep study to see if you have apnea or are actually entering REM sleep. Then worry about supplements.

 

[HIT4ME]

I believe there is more data on higher doses of Vitamin D being beneficial vs higher doses of Vitamin C. I only get my C from food (mainly Baby Spinach, Bell Peppers, and Green Beans) and what ever is in my Multi, but I do take a 5000iu pill of D - and I haven't been sick since December 2008. But it doesn't really matter with C, you'll just piss any excess out, so trying it won't hurt. But I'd definitely recommend properly dosed Vitamin D - and the more body fat that you have, the more D you need (Check SuppVersity).

Yeah, I agree - Vitamin D has some good data and it is also kind of the "vitamin of the day" lately. Vitamin C isn't at all exciting or sexy and it's old news. There is almost NO data for it above 5-10 grams/day that I can find in any studies. Data at lower doses is there though, and kind of points a finger in a direction - although it is lacking.

I always thought Vitamin C people took it too far and were crazy, I settled on 5 grams/day and I haven't been sick (until last week) in years - I don't have an 8-10 year run like you though.

I have been surprised to find that vitamin C studies do show it reduces the duration of the cold but not the frequency with which you acquire a cold, other studies show that it reduces the frequency but not the duration, other studies show that it didn't reduce frequency in the general population, but did cut the frequency in half for soldiers in cold environments under stress. And then you read about the cancer stuff and think it's crazy, but it turns out that there is evidence of it not "curing" cancer, but of it being very helpful in large doses (the only evidence of larger doses I could find) intravenously.

It's safe, and I can tell you that I can't sleep when I take 50 gram doses and I'm usually tired. N=1, but there's little risk in trying. Maybe it helps me with iron levels, maybe I'm just awake because I'm so worried about crapping my pants, I don't know.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

If you want to do it a "safer" way for guys - get a 12" Cast Iron Pan from Wal-Mart (Lodge) and cook in that, and start eating a 1/2 Cup of their "Grape Nuts" (GV Crunchy Nuts) cereal per day - it's 90% of the RDA for Iron.

I've heard that beef liver tabs are a good source of heme iron as well.

 

[Justlooking5]

Unfortunately chronic fatigue syndrome is not real. What symptoms make you think you have chronic fatigue syndrome?

Chronic fatigue though is very real, and can be related to stress, depression, low testosterone, poor nutrition, etc.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Maybe it helps me with iron levels, maybe I'm just awake because I'm so worried about crapping my pants, I don't know.

It definitely helps with Non-Heme absorption.

 

[Synapsin]

Chronic fatigue though is very real, and can be related to stress, depression, low testosterone, poor nutrition, etc.

It is not. No real medical professional (i.e. not a quack) believes in it. Please explain to me the pathology behind it (and don't say it's addison's disease).

 

[muscleupcrohn]

It is not. No real medical professional (i.e. not a quack) believes in it. Please explain to me the pathology behind it (and don't say it's addison's disease).

The description does seem rather vague and nebulous; with the CDC saying that there are no identified causes or tests to diagnose it; it seems that it can only be diagnosed by ruling out other illnesses that can cause fatigue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that mean that a diagnosis of CFS can't be certain unless every other possible illness is ruled out, which seems unlikely?

 

[Synapsin]

The description does seem rather vague and nebulous; with the CDC saying that there are no identified causes or tests to diagnose it; it seems that it can only be diagnosed by ruling out other illnesses that can cause fatigue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that mean that a diagnosis of CFS can't be certain unless every other possible illness is ruled out, which seems unlikely?

It is literally not a recognized disease by any physician who knows what they are talking about. People will always point to one or two quacks that believe in it, but when 99% of the field thinks its not real...

 

[Piston Honda]

GET. A. SLEEP. TEST. Then after treatment tell me about your fatigue

 

[toddmuelheim]

There are theories that mycoplasma could play a role in CFS.

 

[Woody]

The description does seem rather vague and nebulous; with the CDC saying that there are no identified causes or tests to diagnose it; it seems that it can only be diagnosed by ruling out other illnesses that can cause fatigue. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does that mean that a diagnosis of CFS can't be certain unless every other possible illness is ruled out, which seems unlikely?

Clear your PM's

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Clear your PM's

Cleared

 

[Daycrawler]

It is literally not a recognized disease by any physician who knows what they are talking about. People will always point to one or two quacks that believe in it, but when 99% of the field thinks its not real...

Your phD is in brain stuff not chronic fatigue or disease theory, please stick to the stuff you know

 

[scherbs]

Your phD is in brain stuff not chronic fatigue or disease theory, please stick to the stuff you know

One doesn't need medical training to apply logical reasoning and statistical verification