mw1 might be able to get you a trial size bottle of SNS Joint Support XT.
You won't be disappointed! I was having serious shoulder issues on my left side and had started to become limited in what I could do and how often I could do it. I've only been using GenoFlex for a few weeks now and have no pain in my shoulder and have increased intensity and frequency.
Thanks! I haven't looked at any of these options but I'll give them a look. I'm curious to see how similar the ingredients are between the options everyone's recommended so far. Looks like some of them have been on the market longer than GenoFlex as well. With that being said I am a big fan of PES products so far.
I'm curious, the main reason you DIDN'T include glucosamine and chondroitin is because they are primarily studied in osteoarthritis patients.
I'm glad that it's working so well for you. We appreciate the great feedback!
Glucosamine does have some research showing it can improve knee flexion and extension in competitive athletes following acute knee injury at 28 days, but not 7, 14, or 21 days.
No, the main reason we didn't include glucosamine and chondroitin was because the data on them is underwhelming, even in trials with a longer duration. Boswellia shows better results in shorter trials.
This is awesome and I am glad to hear it. I am in a similar boat and am currently on the most intense leg regime that I have been able to do in over a year.
I am glad to hear she has noticed improvements. I hope your post surgery recovery is going well.
She's really enjoyed it. Night and day difference and it's helped her a lot. I have a final review on my to do list after I finish my case analysis due tonightI am glad to hear she has noticed improvements. I hope your post surgery recovery is going well.
Right, cissus and boswellia (generally speaking, not necessarily extract specific) are in a fair amount of joint products.
No kidding...didn't know my questions was going to start all this but I appreciate all the feedback nonetheless!
Are you in America?
I nitpick everyone, including SNS, really most heavily SNS (ask Steve or MikeNo, the main reason we didn't include glucosamine and chondroitin was because the data on them is underwhelming, even in trials with a longer duration. Boswellia shows better results in shorter trials.
Glucosamine and chondroitin combination showing "beneficial but not significant trends" for improvement over two years in subjects with knee osteoarthritis; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20525840
Meta-analysis on chondroitin for osteoarthritis of the knee and hip; "the symptomatic benefit of chondroitin is minimal or nonexistent. Use of chondroitin in routine clinical practice should therefore be discouraged." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17438317
Regarding the quote, I messaged and asked Sol if we could quote him and he said he would prefer not to as it would come across as him aligning himself with a brand which goes against the Examine.com ideology so we modified the quote and removed his name as it is a concise analogy to summarise the research. You are making it sound like there is drama when there is zero lol.
I appreciate we sell a competing product but this trend of SNS reps trying to nitpick other company's products is tiresome. Imagine the laundry list of criticisms we would all come up with if we went over your current product line.
We will continue to focus on our own products rather than other company's. If you want to argue about it please feel free to do so or send me a PM but our rep team won't be engaging in any petty back and forth.
)
I can confirm the first statement to be trueI nitpick everyone, including SNS, really most heavily SNS (ask Steve or Mike
I'm perfectly fine with you not using glucosamine or chondroitin, they're 'last generation' ingredients that require big doses to see moderate benefits. That's a perfectly reasonable argument, but it's not the argument that was made in the glucosamine/chondroitin thread.
The main argument made about it in the 'glucosamine and chondroitin scam' thread was about osteoarthritis, as if that's somehow a bad thing, and the main points *for* boswellia are also in osteoarthritis, painted as a good thing.
I think we could both agree that when your company reps label everybody else in the industry scammers for selling chondroitin and glucosamine, I am pretty entitled to respond by pointing out inconsistencies in the arguments made, right? If it's fair of your company to take that stance, I don't think it's unfair of me to argue it?
--
Genoflex is a good product, Cissus is great, ApresFlex is great (I happen to think our extract is better, but both have multiple studies backing them as effective), and while limited data exists, Passion Fruit is certainly a potentially promising ingredient that hopefully plays out with more data in the future.
I think we would both also agree that *most* joint products on the market are awful, and that either GenoFlex or Joint Support XT are dramatically better than most product offerings out there.
--
One other last thing I've said before, it might seem like I unfairly nitpick PES as opposed to a lot of other brands.
Really though, I only nitpick brands that are even worth nitpicking. I don't feel like getting infracted for dumpstering other joint products, but lets be honest, most of what's on the market is completely useless garbage.
I think highly of you and your brand, and I enjoy engaging conversation about products, ingredients, and their relative merits. I welcome your critique of SNS products, particularly those I think highly of, because I think that none of us should live in an echo chamber of sales-positive reinforcement. The sales-positive echo chamber on most supplement forums is in my opinion ultimately toxic to the industry long-term.
I don't think anybody can truly understand or appreciate the merits of anything without at the very least considering and thinking on opposing viewpoints. And those discussions need not be negative or destructive in nature, nor do I think SNS, PES, or anybody else should shy away from those discussions.
Boswellia is amazing for what it is and how it works.
I'm not using a joint supplement ATM (although I am planning on taking one when I ramp up my training frequency again for the occasional shoulder/knee aches/soreness I sometimes get), but I've been doing a lot of research on joint supplements for horses (which unfortunately- or fortunately because I've learned a bit- involves quite a lot of extrapolating and converting from human and animal studies), and properly standardized boswellia seems like a very promising ingredient for joint support.
The study found that a combination of human equivalents of ~1200mg glucosamine and ~42mg AKBA showed greater anti-arthritic activity than either ~2.4g glucosamine equivalent or ~84mg AKBA equivalent in isolation.
It's been mentioned already, but boswellia does seem to take much less time for effects to be noted than glucosamine does. Pycnogenol also seems to take 8-12 weeks to show benefit in arthritis.
I'd take boswellia over glucosamine, but, if cost is not an issue, I guess I'd still rather have both, but cost (and serving size, especially for caps), is an issue for most people.
This is why we included Passion Fruit Extract.
nice; the dosage on genoflex is from a paper?
We have a write-up on PFE in the PEScience subsection.
I don't see the dosage in the write up?
Yes, but my main question was to know where this number come from? A study?
100% the truth. There are some formulas we dread sending to him. But his nitpicking keeps our formulation process in balance.I nitpick everyone, including SNS, really most heavily SNS (ask Steve or Mike
I'm perfectly fine with you not using glucosamine or chondroitin, they're 'last generation' ingredients that require big doses to see moderate benefits. That's a perfectly reasonable argument, but it's not the argument that was made in the glucosamine/chondroitin thread.
The main argument made about it in the 'glucosamine and chondroitin scam' thread was about osteoarthritis, as if that's somehow a bad thing, and the main points *for* boswellia are also in osteoarthritis, painted as a good thing.
I think we could both agree that when your company reps label everybody else in the industry scammers for selling chondroitin and glucosamine, I am pretty entitled to respond by pointing out inconsistencies in the arguments made, right? If it's fair of your company to take that stance, I don't think it's unfair of me to argue it?
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