does tribulus really need to be cycled?
- 04-25-2005, 04:46 PM
- 04-25-2005, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by LakeMountD
- 04-25-2005, 06:04 PM
Well assuming Trib does what it is supposed to do which is increase LH it prolly should be cycled due to the possible desensitization of LH to Leydig cells.
But the use of nolva can stop this from happining.
04-25-2005, 06:05 PM
Its my opinion and the opinion of most of the literature that trib is a waste of money. Even if it does 'work at higher dosages' as some will try and counter, the only viable mechanisms through which it would 'work' could be attained cheaper with other substances. Furthermore, the methods through which it most likely 'works' would make it undesireable for PCT.
04-26-2005, 05:45 PM
I don't know what you're talking about Jay. Even primo tribulus is relatively cheap.
Use an extract with 15-20% protodiocin. Most tribulus has much less, and therefore doesn't do much.
I can't really address the cycling question. (I basically cycle everything.)
04-27-2005, 12:51 AM
If it works like I think it probably does (DHEA) it would be cheaper to just take DHEA...but thats another can of worms I'm not about to open on this boardOriginally Posted by rrgg
04-27-2005, 01:14 PM
I must be misinformed. I didn't think it worked like DHEA at all.
04-27-2005, 01:25 PM
i use trib after a PH cycle for around 5 weeks great stuff, i usually take 3g a day divided between meals
04-28-2005, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by rrgg
How did you think it worked? Maybe I can help clear things up. Also did you read my article in this months mind and muscle? You might find everything you need there!
(sorry for the shameless plug, I'm not selling anything, just giving info for free!)
04-28-2005, 06:41 PM
To answer your question, I thought it acted by stimulating LH which I thought was different from what DHEA does.
Like I said, I guess I'm misinformed.
I read your article, but I don't understand why you drew the conclusions you did. Again, I probably just don't know better.
The only study you mention that addresses LH is the 7th study. Do you happen to recall what concentration what used, because it says they were only given 1 gram. You describe this as "a heaping gram," as if it's a lot, but honestly I don't think so. I think I need 1.5-2g of tribulus at 15-20% proto. 1g is too little, and if it's typical low concentration tribulus, it's way too little. (Having said that-- maybe tribulus is more expensive that I originally thought.)
I have the same question about reference 6. What concentration and dosage did they use? If it was 1g again, then I might dismiss it, especially if the concentration was low, which I suspect it was.
The article mentions 4 studies related to libido. I'm not interested in that effect, but I also don't understand the conclusion you drew about this. All 4 show that it had an effect on libido but were inconclusive about the mechanism behind it. The studies say tribilus in fact did something, but the article implies tribulus did nothing. I mean, the studies were merely inconclusive about the mechanism. That doesn't mean nothing happened. "...whether this was a result of increased androgen levels was unclear."
Please don't take my disagreement as a flame. I just don't get it.
04-29-2005, 12:26 AM
Definately am not taking it that way. Discussion is healthy!Originally Posted by rrgg
Ok. So here's my thoughts. The reason I included the libido thought was because there's just not that much info on trib and so I was trying ot ocnnect some dots. I thought tribs reported fitness results might also explain or be explained by its libido results. Trib DOES appear to increase the libido of lowered libido rats. That is very clear. Libidor is way complicated so I don't think increased LH is the key. My feeling from reading the texts seemed like the authors thought the effects of trib were independent of the HPG axis because even castrated rats showed increased libido. Obviously if trib was working on LH it would do ****all in castrated animal.
The dossage can be debated for sure. You can say its too small a dose and I can't argue that w/ science. The purpose of that study was to test the sopharma claims and I'm 90% certain they used the same dossage as the sopharma research which is the only study that showed an effect on LH and like I've said I don't really consider that 'research'
Why I think DHEA might be an explanation. First, in the research that points to androgens they mean the weak androgen DHEA which could interact at the androgen receptor and does have an influence on libido. Trib having some action related to DHEA seems possible, increasing LH secretion seems pretty wishful. Intuitively anything w/ 'steroidal' actions feels like it should inhibit LH, antisteroids would intuitively increase LH. YOu could get creative and say that it short circuits the HPG axis but you'd have no science to back it up w/and have to contend w/the libido studies I mentioned and the effects seen there. I've seen the power of the placebo and thats why I'm skeptical about user feedback. Placebo is very powerful. I wanted trib to work, but I can't convince myself that it is good for bodybuilding.
04-29-2005, 08:19 AM
I had a guy on another board to stop taking tribulus because it is suppresive????/ WTF?
I have never heard this any of you?
04-29-2005, 01:48 PM
It could be suppresive if it has direct steroidal actions.Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
04-29-2005, 02:50 PM
please explainOriginally Posted by Jay Mc
04-29-2005, 03:04 PM
Its my opinion and from everything I've read about it that it does nothing for testosterone levels. Its just a useless/bogus supplement.
04-29-2005, 11:17 PM
T-Bone - I don't think that's the consensus. What I've seen expressed on forums is that even those who think it's worthless for weight training still think it affects libido.
JayMc - OK, I think I see you're line of thinking, but in the end I feel those studies are mostly inconclusive, especially due to the dosing. I mean I even just saw some magazine ad where it said to take 2g per day, so I'm not the only one who thinks this about dosing.
04-30-2005, 03:19 PM
This is the really simple version. The Leydig cells in your testis make testosterone in response to LH released by the pituitary in response to GnRH fromt he hypothalamus. The hypothalamus decides how much GnRH to secrete based on blood levels of certain hormones. If you have a substance that acts like a steroid (like AAS) then it will interact at the hypothalamus and shut production down. In the case of AAS this is fine because you are pumping very potent androgens in so your body's production has little importance. In the case of trib the potency of any possible steroidal actions would be very low or everyone and their dog would be taking tribulus and getting yoked. Or, even worse case scenario, trib could aramotize to an estrogen which would also be suppressive to endogenous test production so you'd have higher estrogen lower test. Lots of things to consider.Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
04-30-2005, 03:23 PM
Libido is kinda like IBS. Strong psychological component so sometimes placebo effect can be as potent as pharm effects. Not saying this is the case but could be.Originally Posted by rrgg
I can't argue about higher dosing because there is only anecdotal evidence supporting this. The problem with anecdotal evidence is the lack of control of other variables. I see so mnay guys 'product testing logs' and they start out saying I'm taking this and it works great. I'm also taking blah blah blah blah blah and increased calories a ton and am eating more protein so you've muddied the waters considerably. Obviously I'm not a fan of trib. Some people are tho so if it works for you, I'm obviously not going to tell you to stop taking it.
05-01-2005, 01:50 AM
I'm really just saying the evidence is inconclusive either way.I can't argue about higher dosing because there is only anecdotal evidence supporting this.
06-04-2005, 11:33 PM
HOw do you like the trib from true protein? Can you compare it to any others you have tried?Originally Posted by bizzare_777
06-06-2005, 04:40 PM
tribulus increases libido...for me. in a pronounced way. i will stare at fat girls if they are showing even a little skin, and in some cases do much more naughty things with girls i wouldnt normally. erections are always more frequent, also.
i have never noticed typical testosterone sides (acne, aggression, hypertrophy, mood elevation, etc)
i found that after a few weeks on trib the effect will lessen. cycling circumvents this eventuality.
i also have found that while on activaTe, trib does absolutely nothing. libido is already so stimulated...
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