How to tell if it is'nt placebo: A testimonial guide

[thescience]

I recently happened into a bloodbath of a thread where Admin was kicking a** and taking names. He raised an interesting point that there isnt all that much going on with the placebo aspect of studies( ie we dont see tremendous improvements in the placebo group all the time), so why do so many people on AM believe humans arent capable of determining whether a product helps without having a study to tell them it works?

Im calling on the believers who continue to explore and make gains in the field of sports supplementation. Please share your experiences in what convinces you a supplement works. CritiCisms of any methods laid out here are also welcomed in this discussion

 

[thescience]

For me, i look for the following:

1) consistant results. The sugar pill isnt going to perform it's miracle consistantly month after month. If my results dont falter with consistant dosing, it's a good indication for me

2) discontinuation method: if necessary, i discontinue a supplement in question for long enough to observe a decline in the results i have noticed on something. For example, if think something is giving me good pumps, i can discontinue for a few weeks and then observe if they come back when i resume. If a placebo was that consistant, i would view it to be as good as the real thing

3) the supplement only starts working a few weeks down the road, or long after im no longer excited about . Ive seen amazing results from supplements i had come to doubt after an extended startup time

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I recently happened into a bloodbath of a thread where Admin was kicking a** and taking names. He raised an interesting point that there isnt all that much going on with the placebo aspect of studies( ie we dont see tremendous improvements in the placebo group all the time), so why do so many people on AM believe humans arent capable of determining whether a product helps without having a study to tell them it works?

Im calling on the believers who continue to explore and make gains in the field of sports supplementation. Please share your experiences in what convinces you a supplement works. CritiCisms of any methods laid out here are also welcomed in this discussion

If we're relying on anecdotes, it is quite clear that the placebo effect can be quite strong. One needs to look no farther than people who swore by CEE, people who swore they added 10lbs to their bench the first time they took creatine. As for the research, there are some studies where the placebo noted significant benefits, and there are studies focused entirely on the placebo effect.

It is hard for an individual to say with absolute certainty how much of the benefits of a given supplement can be attributed to the placebo effect, and most people do not do a very good job of controlling other variables; could a change in diet, sleep, work, stress, training, etc be more responsible for changes than the supplement?

Placebo controlled studies are a useful tool in determining a supplements effectiveness or lack of effectiveness, as they often record more variables and outcomes than we could, and control outside variables better than the average person.

If I decide to take supplement x EVERY time I make an effort to really bulk, it is hard to say how effective the supplement is if I have nothing to compare it to. Multiple runs of a supplement, as well as keeping as many variables as possible and removing the supplement and replacing it with a different supplement can also help, but you are still subject, at least to a degree, to your expectations for a given product and/or variables that you cannot control and may not even be aware of effecting your perception of a given product's effectiveness.

For supplements designed to promote an acute effect (energy, focus, relaxation, etc), it may not matter so much, since what you are looking for is completely subjective, and the effectiveness can be tested many times and easily compared to other supplement or no supplements. You can also blind yourself easily for this type of supplement.

On the other hand, it's a little harder to gauge the effectiveness of something that is supposed to increase lean body mass over a period of weeks. You can't test it or compare it to something else as often, and it's a lot harder to control for other variables for a few months than it is for a day.

 

[SFreed]

I hear a lot about the "placebo effect" and people seem to use it to downplay results people get. I think that for the majority of supplement users (ie, people like me who are non-body builders) the results that we get from most supplements are fairly small. However, if I FEEL like something is working, do I then subconsciously work harder, which gives me more results? I think something like that would be difficult to track. But then, what do I know. I still drink a protein shake when I get home from the gym. I'm sure there are others more intelligent than me who will be along shortly.
BTW, your three steps would certainly work to minimize a placebo effect.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I hear a lot about the "placebo effect" and people seem to use it to downplay results people get. I think that for the majority of supplement users (ie, people like me who are non-body builders) the results that we get from most supplements are fairly small. However, if I FEEL like something is working, do I then subconsciously work harder, which gives me more results? I think something like that would be difficult to track. But then, what do I know. I still drink a protein shake when I get home from the gym. I'm sure there are others more intelligent than me who will be along shortly.
BTW, your three steps would certainly work to minimize a placebo effect.

If you work harder and feel more energized after getting tingles from acute beta alanine supplementation, or just don't feel quite right without that feeling pre-workout, does it really matter if it's in your head?

 

[SFreed]

If you work harder and feel more energized after getting tingles from acute beta alanine supplementation, or just don't feel quite right without that feeling pre-workout, does it really matter if it's in your head?

Absolutely not! And I guess that's kinda what I was getting at. As a 52 year old average guy, my workouts and diet aren't dialed in enough for me to be able to "feel" a difference between a spiked protein or a non spiked protein. I only know that some things seem to be working for me. Is it legit? Don't know, and really don't care. If I feel like something is working for me, I'll stick with it. If not, I won't. Supplement companies are banking on people just like me. I'm a grown ass man and I'll spend my money on whatever I want.

 

[Admin]

If we're relying on anecdotes, it is quite clear that the placebo effect can be quite strong. One needs to look no farther than people who swore by CEE, people who swore they added 10lbs to their bench the first time they took creatine. As for the research, there are some studies where the placebo noted significant benefits, and there are studies focused entirely on the placebo effect.

Thats because a lot of what was being sold as CEE, was in fact...creatine mono.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Absolutely not! And I guess that's kinda what I was getting at. As a 52 year old average guy, my workouts and diet aren't dialed in enough for me to be able to "feel" a difference between a spiked protein or a non spiked protein. I only know that some things seem to be working for me. Is it legit? Don't know, and really don't care. If I feel like something is working for me, I'll stick with it. If not, I won't. Supplement companies are banking on people just like me. I'm a grown ass man and I'll spend my money on whatever I want.

Well, I think my point was more applicable for something that is intended to provide you with acute and subjective effects. If the tingles from beta alanine get you fired up and ready to lift, leading to a better workout, that's great, but the same principle doesn't really hold up for, say, a spiked protein. You really aren't going to notice acute effects in regards to increases in strength and LBM from changes in protein intake, but they can add up to significant changes over a period of months.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Thats because a lot of what was being sold as CEE, was in fact...creatine mono.

Interesting. That would make sense with the research that came out showing CEE to be vastly inferior to monohydrate. Perhaps some people preferred the mono that they thought was CEE to mono because of a more sensible dosing scheme used with "CEE"? If I recall, doses for "CEE" were usually only a few grams with no loading period, while plenty of people loaded with 20g/day creatine and took 10+g daily indefinitely. I wouldn't be surprised if someone enjoyed creatine mono (believed to be CEE) more, and had less side effects, taking 2-5g per day with no loading period than 10-20g per day of monohydrate.

That still doesn't account for people, often times younger and newer lifters, who add a few reps and/or pounds on their lifts the first time they take a dose of creatine.

 

[thescience]

I think muscleupcrohn has a valid point that alot, if not a majority of people dont pay heed to all the variables that could affect performance (at least to a small degree.)That said , the accusations that "its all in someone's head" that run so rampant on this site are devoid of any insight into whether or not someone is minding those other variables. A

 

[thescience]

Im sure there can always be a few extra unexplained reps or perhaps a 10lb increase mistakingly attributed to a supplement, but i suppose im arguing that we have the ability, at any time, to start observing whether those results endure and increase while the user takes the supplement and whether they drop when the user discontinues and that these observations provide the user with fairly solid evidence that the product works. Alsl, it think it's safe to say that the products relevant to the discussion as to which supplements "really work" exhibit benefits that are a bit more pronounced that "a few more reps." I mean, people are being told consistant 20-40lb increases in their lifts everyday is from percieved expectation only

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Surely it must be possible for some of the mechanisms responsible for placebo to come into play regardless of what supplement is being ingested.

How, then, can one reliably distinguish quantifiably and practically between the ‘genuine‘ effects due solely to the mechanism of the supplement, and those due to the subject himself? Again, if the mechanisms of placebo can potentially exert influence at any given time, with otherwise efficacious supplements or not, how do we tell?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Here's some interesting reading on the placebo effect:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11141/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15827993
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17146324

 

[thescience]

Surely it must be possible for some of the mechanisms responsible for placebo to come into play regardless of what supplement is being ingested.

How, then, can one reliably distinguish quantifiably and practically between the ‘genuine‘ effects due solely to the mechanism of the supplement, and those due to the subject himself? Again, if the mechanisms of placebo can potentially exert influence at any given time, with otherwise efficacious supplements or not, how do we tell?

I definately agree the line is blurred, but not to the extent that we cant work with what information we can derive. Practically speaking, a "grown-ass man" can make enough of a determination to warrant a second purchase, despite being told by some AM blogger that his own observation is worthless

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Im sure there can always be a few extra unexplained reps or perhaps a 10lb increase mistakingly attributed to a supplement, but i suppose im arguing that we have the ability, at any time, to start observing whether those results endure and increase while the user takes the supplement and whether they drop when the user discontinues and that these observations provide the user with fairly solid evidence that the product works. Alsl, it think it's safe to say that the products relevant to the discussion as to which supplements "really work" exhibit benefits that are a bit more pronounced that "a few more reps." I mean, people are being told consistant 20-40lb increases in their lifts everyday is from percieved expectation only

If you're making anywhere remotely close to 20-40lb increases on your lifts everyday, or even every week, then whatever you are doing is working exceptionally well, and, assuming it is safe, should be continued whether it's placebo or not.

 

[thescience]

If you're making anywhere remotely close to 20-40lb increases on your lifts everyday, or even every week, then whatever you are doing is working exceptionally well, and, assuming it is safe, should be continued whether it's placebo or not.

Exactly. Special thanks to epic unleashed, carbolyn 19, and cretineRT

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Exactly. Special thanks to epic unleashed, carbolyn 19, and cretineRT

So you should be setting some records within a few weeks/months then?

 

[thescience]

Here's some interesting reading on the placebo effect:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11141/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15827993
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17146324

Ive read the first one so far. I have to agree that the ability to feel sleepy or alert or pain is largely controlled by the mind. Hell, i can induce sleep any time i want, or get excited just by something i saw without taking anything.
In the context of how people are being accused of basing their opinions solely of placebo because they observed consistant increases in strength (as measured by the weights they lift) those examples dont really seem to apply. A hypnotist can tell someone to sleep and wake up, but lifters arent being told to add 30lbs to their bench when they wake up

 

[thescience]

So you should be setting some records within a few weeks/months then?

Well, ive had a ton of personal records with that string of supplements. My bench is up to 10 reps 255 from 225

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Ive read the first one so far. I have to agree that the ability to feel sleepy or alert or pain is largely controlled by the mind. Hell, i can induce sleep any time i want, or get excited just by something i saw without taking anything.
In the context of how people are being accused of basing their opinions solely of placebo because they observed consistant increases in strength as measured by the weights they lift, thise examples dont really seem to apply. A hypnotist can tell someone to sleep and wake up, but lifters arent being told to add 30lbs to their bench when they wake up

You've never had a really good or bad day at the gym? There have been times where I've had incredible workouts (many more reps and/or lbs than I expected) that I could not replicate again, and also some workouts where I struggled to get 1 rep with a weight I could normally do sets of 5+ with. Granted, these flukes tend to balance out over time, and general trends and progression are still fairly easy to determine. Assuming training, rest, and diet are all fairly well controlled (and your training level is similar; you can't compare your increases in strength for Product A when you benched 150lbs with your gains with Product B when you benched 300lbs), you can have decent picture of if a supplement works, especially if you compare it to similar runs of other supplements and/or no supplements.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Well, ive had a ton of personal records with that string of supplements. My bench is up to 10 reps 255 from 225

I'm talking competitive records within weeks, and world records within months. 20lbs a week on bench press is obviously not a realistic or sustainable pace. That's 240lbs in 12 weeks; from 160 to 400. Not going to happen.

 

[thescience]

Here's some interesting reading on the placebo effect:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11141/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15827993
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17146324

The second article is definatley a good burn for psychotherapists and depression drug makers. I totally believe it

 

[thescience]

I'm talking competitive records within weeks, and world records within months. 20lbs a week on bench press is obviously not a realistic or sustainable pace. That's 240lbs in 12 weeks; from 160 to 400. Not going to happen.

Oh im not gaining that every week. Ive been on the stuff for months and it totalled there. By consistant, i mean my weights havent dropped

 

[SFreed]

Well, I think my point was more applicable........

You're correct, my protein comment was more directed at my own inability to determine what effects are due to supplementation, and was a poor choice for an example. You (along with others here) are certainly in better shape than I am, and more in tune with how different supplements actually affect your workouts. So these things probably make a difference to someone with your experience and ability. Most of the things I take I do so because I "feel" like they're helping me, or they are items which have been studied extensively and have a fair amount of evidence behind them. I recently received the new OL Conqu3r Unleashed, and the first workout with it was phenomenal. Is it placebo, or is it one of the ingredients that I haven't had before that just works for me? Not sure, and again, not sure if it matters. To me anyway.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

I definately agree the line is blurred, but not to the extent that we cant work with what information we can derive. Practically speaking, a "grown-ass man" can make enough of a determination to warrant a second purchase, despite being told by some AM blogger that his own observation is worthless

Yeah well, hopefully.

At this stage I think placebo can be a phenomenon of ‘degrees‘, and not necessarily something that is all/total or nothing.

For example, I suspect the same mechanisms that enable a guy to push out a few extra reps when all he took were some caps full of rice flour, are responsible for the superhuman feats in emergencies and life-and-death scenarios...what distinguishes them are the physical manifestations of these mechanisms, but not the mechanisms themselves.

In one context we refer to them as miracles, in another, placebo.

 

[thescience]

You've never had a really good or bad day at the gym? There have been times where I've had incredible workouts (many more reps and/or lbs than I expected) that I could not replicate again, and also some workouts where I struggled to get 1 rep with a weight I could normally do sets of 5+ with. Granted, these flukes tend to balance out over time, and general trends and progression are still fairly easy to determine. Assuming training, rest, and diet are all fairly well controlled (and your training level is similar; you can't compare your increases in strength for Product A when you benched 150lbs with your gains with Product B when you benched 300lbs), you can have decent picture of if a supplement works, especially if you compare it to similar runs of other supplements and/or no supplements.

No. At least not with regards to strength, which js why i take supps. Im sure i would consider how much any supplement could energize someone is fraught with the taint of placebo, but i would be furious if i went to the gym and mysteriously lost 10lbs i had acquired for a set. I would be racking my brain. The only times i see that is when i drop a staple. With regards to how i feel when i work out on some days, i can honestly say after 17 years of not missing a workout that i always feel like dogsh*t until i start lifting, and then i drag ass; cant really say i have any "on" days where i lift more without changing the supplement or dietary routine

 

[thescience]

Yeah well, hopefully.

At this stage I think placebo can be a phenomenon of ‘degrees‘, and not necessarily something that is all/total or nothing.

For example, I suspect the same mechanisms that enable a guy to push out a few extra reps when all he took were some caps full of rice flour, are responsible for the superhuman feats in emergencies and life-and-death scenarios...what distinguishes them are the physical manifestations of these mechanisms, but not the mechanisms themselves.

In one context we refer to them as miracles, in another, placebo.

Hahah you know you raise an interesting point how the mind can, at least under extreme conditions, really influence strength . I suppose that happens so rarely because it isnt something thats easy for people to do, And im sure they cant do it consistantly. Did the women all screwed up physically after lifting up the crane to save her kid? I think someone was trying to claim you have to have a certain gene to be able to do thatj

 

[muscleupcrohn]

No. At least not with regards to strength, which js why i take supps. Im sure i would consider how much any supplement could energize someone is fraught with the taint of placebo, but i would be furious if i went to the gym and mysteriously lost 10lbs i had acquired for a set. I would be racking my brain. The only times i see that is when i drop a staple. With regards to how i feel when i work out on some days, i can honestly say after 17 years of not missing a workout that i always feel like dogsh*t until i start lifting, and then i drag ass

I'm not talking a significant, instantaneous and permanent change in strength, just an abnormal workout where you either lift more or less than what you normally would, before returning to more normal levels in subsequent workouts.

 

[thescience]

I'm not talking a significant, instantaneous and permanent change in strength, just an abnormal workout where you either lift more or less than what you normally would, before returning to more normal levels in subsequent workouts.

Yeah i definately understood the question. I just reached my plateau a long time ago so i can rest assured i wont see surprize gains. If i hAd a flu i involving lots if duarrhea, that would mess me up and my reps or strength would drop a few days presumably from lost calories, but otherwise flus dont even set me back since i force the food down if i have to. I dont respond to stimulants of any kind, which is unusual so maybe theres a connection where i never go into a gym feeling stokedj

 

[JudoJosh]

Surely it must be possible for some of the mechanisms responsible for placebo to come into play regardless of what supplement is being ingested.

How, then, can one reliably distinguish quantifiably and practically between the ‘genuine‘ effects due solely to the mechanism of the supplement, and those due to the subject himself? Again, if the mechanisms of placebo can potentially exert influence at any given time, with otherwise efficacious supplements or not, how do we tell?

Which is why causation is rarely evoked, at least by good scientist. We imply causation but all we can really do is disprove null and assume there is a causative link between the two. The way we try and control for how much of an effect is placebo vs the compound is via sample size. The larger the sample size the less varation in outliers and the more consistent of a result we can get


Edit: sorry if that doesn't make sense. I'm half asleep and realizing I may not be as coherent as I think I am being