Need New Suggestions for Sleep Supplements

[tristen22001]

For some reason I've been having trouble sleeping the last few months. My "sleep hygiene" is good and don't need recommendations with regard to that (researched and implemented it a couple years ago). My standard supplements no longer seem to work well. I seem to fall asleep okay but wake multiple times during the night and often can't fall back asleep after 3 am. Below is a list of the supplements, and their affects, that I've tried.

Melatonin - I currently take 0.5 mg sublingually. I briefly tried a slow release 1 mg tablet. While it seemed to help with reducing the amount of times I wake up, I felt very groggy and hung-over the next morning.

Magnesium - I currently take 300-400 mg of magnesium glycinate. I was taking a higher dose but for some reason it seems like my sleep actually gets worse with higher doses. I picked up a magnesium citrate powder that you drink and will try that tonight instead.

5-htp - No improvement on sleep and had bad nightmares and headaches with just 50 mg.

Valerian Root Extract - Have been trying 500 mg lately but it doesn't seem to help me stay asleep and I wake groggy and with a bad headache in the morning.

Agmatine - Used to take about 1 g before bed and it seemed to help a lot. However, I recently tried it again and instead my sleep was even worse those times.

Lithium Orotate - 5 mg seems to help me both fall asleep and stay asleep. However, it also seemed to flatten my emotions the next day and I became concerned about the long-term use of this supplement due to the lack of studies on the orotate form.

Benadryl - Lately I've been sporadically taking 25 mg before bed and it seems to help a lot with me staying asleep. However, I've also noticed bad nightmares and grogginess/headaches in the morning. Still, it's been the best option so far.


I'm sure I'm forgetting some of the other supplements I've tried but the above one's are what I recall right now. I'd prefer single ingredient suggestions instead of a blend. Also, I recently started taking ashwagandha with breakfast and dinner. While it's helping with daytime anxiety, it doesn't seem to help (yet) with sleep. Not sure if I should take higher doses or maybe switch the dose I take with dinner to bedtime instead. Any ideas/suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[T-Bone]

Have you tried Growth Factor XT?. mw1 can send you samples.

 

[tristen22001]

Have you tried Growth Factor XT?. mw1 can send you samples.

No. However, I've seen it recommended a lot on here. Unfortunately, it contains l-dopa. In the past when I've tried l-dopa during the daytime, it seemed to make me very irritable my anxiety a lot worse.

 

[DennisTheDane]

Magnesium zink and b6 ? ZMA. If you take Valerian root you must drink a pint of water with it..Atleast.. combining melatonin with ala could maybe help

 

[Mkgain1]

I really like GABA all around 750-1000mg during the day if I get a little anxiety, mellows me out nicely. Then I typically do 3g before bed, with 3g arginine, and 400mg magnesium citrate its simple but been effective, it doesn't knock you out cold but relax and ease you into sleep. Sometimes I'll throw in l-tryptophan or Valerian root as well

 

[tristen22001]

Recently my wife suggested that maybe my cortisol levels are too high (high anxiety, shaky hands, poor sleep, etc.). That why I started taking ashwagandha. I've never tried an adaptogen before bed though. So, maybe that could help. I also have Relora on hand. So, maybe one of those during the day and other at night would help? I welcome any and all ideas/suggestions (maybe even a different combination of the supplements listed above).

 

[tristen22001]

Magnesium zink and b6 ? ZMA. If you take Valerian root you must drink a pint of water with it..Atleast.. combining melatonin with ala could maybe help

Good suggestion. My wife takes ZMA at night. So, I had tried it and my sleep was really bad. I woke multiple times and couldn't get back to sleep after around 2 am. The weird thing was that I actually felt really good the next day. However, I figured the poor sleep would eventually catch up to me. Also, I get about 30 mg of zinc with my multivitamin each day.

 

[T-Bone]

No. However, I've seen it recommended a lot on here. Unfortunately, it contains l-dopa. In the past when I've tried l-dopa during the daytime, it seemed to make me very irritable my anxiety a lot worse.

Same thing has happened to me and lower dosage helps me out. You could try it at 3 caps instead of the recommended serving size of 5 caps.

 

[tristen22001]

I really like GABA all around 750-1000mg during the day if I get a little anxiety, mellows me out nicely. Then I typically do 3g before bed, with 3g arginine, and 400mg magnesium citrate its simple but been effective, it doesn't knock you out cold but relax and ease you into sleep. Sometimes I'll throw in l-tryptophan or Valerian root as well

Gaba is one I haven't tried yet. Maybe I can pick some up at a store nearby to give it a quick try.

 

[Coachtrot]

Maximize Helps Sleep

Hey man. I have been on the Age Force Maximize patches for a week and my sleep has really improved. REM nightly and some bizarre dreams. I am enjoying the rest.

 

[Mkgain1]

Gaba is one I haven't tried yet. Maybe I can pick some up at a store nearby to give it a quick try.

It's definitely worth a shot you can get 110g of it for like $12. You do get a little rush of shortness of breath with it about 15min after a bit of a higher dose but it only lasts a few seconds

 

[tristen22001]

It's definitely worth a shot you can get 110g of it for like $12. You do get a little rush of shortness of breath with it about 15min after a bit of a higher dose but it only lasts a few seconds

Would something that also works on gaba like ashwagandha or relora also help in a similar way? I've tried a couple adaptogens but never thought to take them before bed. I'm wondering if either of those would also be effective if increasing gaba levels/activity is the goal. The benefit being I already have them and wouldn't have to get off my lazy butt (or spend money) to go to the store and buy gaba.

 

[DennisTheDane]

Good suggestion. My wife takes ZMA at night. So, I had tried it and my sleep was really bad. I woke multiple times and couldn't get back to sleep after around 2 am. The weird thing was that I actually felt really good the next day. However, I figured the poor sleep would eventually catch up to me. Also, I get about 30 mg of zinc with my multivitamin each day.

ZMA = Zink Mag and b6 try a lower dosage...And yes sometimes you feel like a million the next day..

 

[Mkgain1]

Would something that also works on gaba like ashwagandha or relora also help in a similar way? I've tried a couple adaptogens but never thought to take them before bed. I'm wondering if either of those would also be effective if increasing gaba levels/activity is the goal. The benefit being I already have them and wouldn't have to get off my lazy butt (or spend money) to go to the store and buy gaba.

I don't have experience with those so I can't give a real recommendation on that, give it a shot on a night you don't have work or anything the next day and see what happens

 

[Woody]

Glycine.

 

[tristen22001]

Glycine.

I should be getting 2-3 g of that already with the magnesium glycinate I take.

 

[machinehead]

Recently my wife suggested that maybe my cortisol levels are too high (high anxiety, shaky hands, poor sleep, etc.). That why I started taking ashwagandha. I've never tried an adaptogen before bed though. So, maybe that could help. I also have Relora on hand. So, maybe one of those during the day and other at night would help? I welcome any and all ideas/suggestions (maybe even a different combination of the supplements listed above).

It is a low cortisol symptom that you describe. Adaptogens may help but it would take time and won't solve it permanently. The one thing that would work forever as long as your thyroid is ok is transdermal pregnenolone.

I am on the phone and at work so I cannot elaborate but you could peruse my posts from the last month.

 

[HIT4ME]

T-bone is dead on with the ZMA. First, stick to it, it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, but if you take it every night you will start to notice you sleep much better and stay asleep, and the good sleep nights become more frequent. If it is causing issues, you may be taking too much. This is why women need 2/3 the dose of men usually.

Gaba - for me, I've experimented with doses between 500mg - 10 grams and I like to stay around 1-2 grams. 2 grams can really put me in a coma - it shouldn't because it doesn't cross the BBB, but whatever. It works for me, regardless of its pharmacokinetics.

Ashwaganda - I am a huge fan of this. I take 1/4 of my daily dose in the morning, 1/4 in the afternoon, and half at night before bed. So if you're using 1 gram a day, that's 250 mg, 250 mg, 500 mg.

During the day, start taking NALT or L-Tyrosine. Try cutting way back on caffeine intake.

I have started to focus more on getting quality sleep and I'm realizing that what I really want is to be awake and motivated during the day, which is a double edged sword. Focus on getting clean energy during the day, good sleep at night, and improve the cycle from both sides.

 

[Driven2lift]

I would be amiss to not mention truZMA here, which also contains shalijit which makes it worth extra consideration for its own benefits:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pes/274691-what-shilajit-truzma.html

 

[thebigt]

ashwaganda 1st thing in morning....growth factor xt before bed!!!

 

[tristen22001]

T-bone is dead on with the ZMA. First, stick to it, it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, but if you take it every night you will start to notice you sleep much better and stay asleep, and the good sleep nights become more frequent. If it is causing issues, you may be taking too much. This is why women need 2/3 the dose of men usually.

Gaba - for me, I've experimented with doses between 500mg - 10 grams and I like to stay around 1-2 grams. 2 grams can really put me in a coma - it shouldn't because it doesn't cross the BBB, but whatever. It works for me, regardless of its pharmacokinetics.

Ashwaganda - I am a huge fan of this. I take 1/4 of my daily dose in the morning, 1/4 in the afternoon, and half at night before bed. So if you're using 1 gram a day, that's 250 mg, 250 mg, 500 mg.

During the day, start taking NALT or L-Tyrosine. Try cutting way back on caffeine intake.

I have started to focus more on getting quality sleep and I'm realizing that what I really want is to be awake and motivated during the day, which is a double edged sword. Focus on getting clean energy during the day, good sleep at night, and improve the cycle from both sides.

I would be amiss to not mention truZMA here, which also contains shalijit which makes it worth extra consideration for its own benefits:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pes/274691-what-shilajit-truzma.html

ashwaganda 1st thing in morning....growth factor xt before bed!!!

I've found in the past that if I take any zinc before bed that it interrupts my sleep. Even before I started having sleep issues I couldn't take zma or zinc glycinate with another form of magnesium.

Will have to check into Gaba.

I think taking more ashwagandha, and including a dose right before bed, might be worth checking out first since I'm already taking that during the daytime with good results.

I like your suggestion of tyrosine during the day. Maybe that will help me stop taking caffeine to offset the tiredness from lack of sleep. I currently have 4-8 ounces of coffee each day and nothing past 1 pm. Any more than that is too bad for my anxiety but I should really stop it completely.

 

[tristen22001]

I would be amiss to not mention truZMA here, which also contains shalijit which makes it worth extra consideration for its own benefits:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/pes/274691-what-shilajit-truzma.html

If I wasn't trying to avoid taking zinc before bed due to past experiences, then it does look like something worth trying.

 

[tristen22001]

ashwaganda 1st thing in morning....growth factor xt before bed!!!

Definitely sticking with ashwagandha during the day. Thinking about giving growth factor xt a try at lower doses like T-bone suggested.

 

[tristen22001]

It is a low cortisol symptom that you describe. Adaptogens may help but it would take time and won't solve it permanently. The one thing that would work forever as long as your thyroid is ok is transdermal pregnenolone.

I am on the phone and at work so I cannot elaborate but you could peruse my posts from the last month.

I've tried 10 mg of sublingual pregnenolone before and it really ramped up my anxiety.

 

[thebigt]

Definitely sticking with ashwagandha during the day. Thinking about giving growth factor xt a try at lower doses like T-bone suggested.

ashwagandha has improved my sleep considerably, but it is subtle...growth factor xt really puts me out, ask mike or T-bone for some samples and experiment with dosing, it really is a must try, imo.

 

[tristen22001]

Same thing has happened to me and lower dosage helps me out. You could try it at 3 caps instead of the recommended serving size of 5 caps.

My negative reaction to l-dopa was at higher doses. So, your recommendation is definitely worth a try. If there's anyway I could get a small sample to try I would appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll wait and see if there are any sales on it over the holidays and pick some up then.

 

[machinehead]

I've tried 10 mg of sublingual pregnenolone before and it really ramped up my anxiety.

That is expected. Only transdermal will get you where you want to be.

 

[HIT4ME]

What is it about sleep that you are having trouble with? Falling asleep? Staying asleep? Thoughts start rushing through your head before you fall asleep?

 

[tristen22001]

What is it about sleep that you are having trouble with? Falling asleep? Staying asleep? Thoughts start rushing through your head before you fall asleep?

Mostly staying asleep. I used to have trouble falling asleep due to me not being able to shut off my thoughts but melatonin seems to fix that.

Almost every night I wake up around 2 or 3 am and about 75% of the time I'm unable to get back to sleep. The exception being the nights I take benadryl. I still wake up at 2 or 3 am those nights but am able to get back to sleep for two or three more hours. However, I also wake up with a headache and feel very sluggish but with an added bonus that my slight allergy problem being much better when I wake up.

The nights I'm unable to get back to sleep, I just seem to have trouble shutting off my thoughts again and can't seem to get comfortable. I'm constantly tossing and turning. Once I realize I won't be able to get back to sleep, I leave the bedroom so that I don't wake up my wife.

 

[Lunarisx718]

How did the magnesium powder work? I take Natural Calm on Rob Wolf's recommendation and it works pretty well for me.

 

[tristen22001]

How did the magnesium powder work? I take Natural Calm on Rob Wolf's recommendation and it works pretty well for me.

That's actually the brand I had bought. It's hard to say how it worked because I also took 2 benadryl before bed to make sure I got more than the 3 hours of sleep the previous night. So, I slept a better (about 6 hours) but felt like crap when I woke up thanks to the benadryl.

 

[T-Bone]

This sounds like it is enough of a problem that you should seek medical advice.

 

[Jiigzz]

I love Growth Factor XT, but if you had a bad experience with it, I might err on the side of caution and suggest another route. Although, it depends on the dose you used vs. the dose we use in our products, however I suspect that you need to see a GP if this is starting to affect your life. I suggest a Doctor who will work with you to solve the problem rather than just give you sleeping aids, as a lack of sleep (my gf has a similar problem) can really take a toll on your quality of life.

For now:

Ashwaganda - KSM or Sensoril - is a good choice for stress and cortisol management.
5-HTP (serotonin and melatonin)
Sleephoria

In any case, I hope you find something that works for you!

 

[tristen22001]

This sounds like it is enough of a problem that you should seek medical advice.

I love Growth Factor XT, but if you had a bad experience with it, I might err on the side of caution and suggest another route. Although, it depends on the dose you used vs. the dose we use in our products, however I suspect that you need to see a GP if this is starting to affect your life. I suggest a Doctor who will work with you to solve the problem rather than just give you sleeping aids, as a lack of sleep (my gf has a similar problem) can really take a toll on your quality of life.

For now:

Ashwaganda - KSM or Sensoril - is a good choice for stress and cortisol management.
5-HTP (serotonin and melatonin)
Sleephoria

In any case, I hope you find something that works for you!

I completely agree about seeking medical advice. I actually saw my regular doctor about it a few months ago. He just said he thought I was depressed and prescribed an ssri. I tried that for a couple weeks but it made things significantly worse (almost broke up my marriage due to the anger and rage experienced), so I stopped. The company I work for recently dropped our coverage. I plan on getting a sleep study as soon as I can afford new coverage. My brother and Mom had that done and were prescribed medication to help with sleep. I'm just trying to find supplements that might help some for now until I get new coverage.

edit: Just wanted to add a big thank you to everyone for the recommendations and advice. I appreciate all of you taking the time.

 

[HIT4ME]

Yeah, this sounds like you have anxiety that is building and not stopping. It's kind of a big cycle - you are tired, so you don't handle stress well, so you get anxiety, so you can't sleep, so you are tired. Medical help is good advice, but I think the suggestions you have will help you to some degree.

I personally think you should try a smaller dose of ZMA and see if that helps you stay asleep. Give it time to work, maybe go through a bottle of it and see if it's helping. I know you said the zinc may be an issue, and I trust your judgement, but maybe in a smaller dose it will be helpful.

Gaba, for me, was a HUGE help. Like I said, playing with the dose allowed me to find a sweet spot. I started at 500 mg, then 1 gram, then 2 grams, then 4 grams, then 8 grams, then 10 grams. I got the absolute best sleep at 2 grams. 2 grams and I am unconscious.

Also, keep in mind, you may not NEED anything for sleep. You may just need to slow your thoughts and forget about your stresses. I feel that GABA helped me do that...but it was an aid to fixing the problem, not the fix.

Try some N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine up to 2 grams/day in divided doses and then GABA and ZMA at night. It's simple, and shouldn't mess with your brain chemistry all that much.

Finally, this sounds lame and goes against the approach many on here would take, but maybe go to Audible.com and look up some guided sleep hypnosis books. I've tried a few of these. They are all somewhat comical if you stop and think about it, and some are better than others, but I find that having these playing in the background keeps me focused on the suggestions, and not on the thoughts that cause excessive thinking to begin with - which helps you just pass out.

 

[machinehead]

It is a classical case of downregulation of the cortisol line. There aren't many ways to fix that and, sadly, there aren't many doctors who would apply those.

 

[Power-Lift]

I've been taking Hypnos (Chaos and Pain), stuff is amazing...

 

[HIT4ME]

I've been taking Hypnos (Chaos and Pain), stuff is amazing...

View attachment 126224

I've heard good things about Hypnos and I've used RC's Resurrect too, but I think it may be best for him to simplify and Phenibut can be addictive...

 

[rhoadx]

I've been taking Hypnos (Chaos and Pain), stuff is amazing...

View attachment 126224

Stuff looks awesome for sleep, but the phenibut in it makes it something you definitely shouldn't take nightly. Maybe a couple times a week.

 

[mw1]

No. However, I've seen it recommended a lot on here. Unfortunately, it contains l-dopa. In the past when I've tried l-dopa during the daytime, it seemed to make me very irritable my anxiety a lot worse.

The 3OH is great. If you would like to try a sample I would be glad to send you one

 

[tristen22001]

Yeah, this sounds like you have anxiety that is building and not stopping. It's kind of a big cycle - you are tired, so you don't handle stress well, so you get anxiety, so you can't sleep, so you are tired. Medical help is good advice, but I think the suggestions you have will help you to some degree.

I personally think you should try a smaller dose of ZMA and see if that helps you stay asleep. Give it time to work, maybe go through a bottle of it and see if it's helping. I know you said the zinc may be an issue, and I trust your judgement, but maybe in a smaller dose it will be helpful.

Gaba, for me, was a HUGE help. Like I said, playing with the dose allowed me to find a sweet spot. I started at 500 mg, then 1 gram, then 2 grams, then 4 grams, then 8 grams, then 10 grams. I got the absolute best sleep at 2 grams. 2 grams and I am unconscious.

Also, keep in mind, you may not NEED anything for sleep. You may just need to slow your thoughts and forget about your stresses. I feel that GABA helped me do that...but it was an aid to fixing the problem, not the fix.

Try some N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine up to 2 grams/day in divided doses and then GABA and ZMA at night. It's simple, and shouldn't mess with your brain chemistry all that much.

Finally, this sounds lame and goes against the approach many on here would take, but maybe go to Audible.com and look up some guided sleep hypnosis books. I've tried a few of these. They are all somewhat comical if you stop and think about it, and some are better than others, but I find that having these playing in the background keeps me focused on the suggestions, and not on the thoughts that cause excessive thinking to begin with - which helps you just pass out.

Thank you for all the great advice. I'll pick up some gaba to try with my next online order and I'll try zma at a smaller dose tonight (along with the slow release melatonin I have).

 

[tristen22001]

I've been taking Hypnos (Chaos and Pain), stuff is amazing...

View attachment 126224

While I appreciate the recommendation, I'll never take anything with phenibut in it again. Ran in to problems with it a couple years ago.

 

[tristen22001]

The 3OH is great. If you would like to try a sample I would be glad to send you one

Thank you. That would be great. I'll send you my address.

 

[tristen22001]

That is expected. Only transdermal will get you where you want to be.

What transdermal pregnenolone do you find to be most effective and when do you apply it?

 

[machinehead]

I got those and made my own:

http://nutraplanet.com/products/nutraplanet-topical-matrix/

http://nutraplanet.com/products/nutraplanet-pregnenolone-powder/

Last batch I made ended up about 10% by weight which is just right. I apply about 75mg in the evening and the same amount upon waking up before work. I can finally appreciate good sleep. I have had poor sleep since the day I was born. Finally fixing my low cortisol fixed my sleep as the other direction didn't work.

Of course, pregnenolone has strong inherent effect and regulates all neurotransmitters through the NMDA receptors:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/46/10318.full

 

[Jiigzz]

As an added extra, L ornithine has data in humans showing it helped stressed out workers sleep better.

Could be another route to explore if medical advice is difficult to obtain right now

 

[criticalbench]

Out Cold is one to look into. Really helps wind me down and relax me prior to sleep and does an even better job keeping me asleep.. def worth a look imo.

 

[machinehead]

That's a good one, Mike. Humanofort in it worked really well for me. It is claimed to increase 11-keto steriods which is awesome.

 

[HIT4ME]

As an added extra, L ornithine has data in humans showing it helped stressed out workers sleep better.

Could be another route to explore if medical advice is difficult to obtain right now

This is spot on, and RC Resurrect is the only formula I've seen with Ornithine in it, but it also has phenibut...which you know the issues with.

 

[tristen22001]

As an added extra, L ornithine has data in humans showing it helped stressed out workers sleep better.

Could be another route to explore if medical advice is difficult to obtain right now

I've never heard of l ornithine. Thank you for the suggestion. I'll look into that.