Chasing supplements when we should be focusing on food, training, and protein intake

[Justlooking5]

Sometimes I think we all (myself included) get too distracted by looking for the next big "xyz super supplement" and we wind up overlooking/losing focus on what really makes the biggest difference: Training, food, and total protein intake.

It's telling that the first forum on this site is the supplement forum, while training and diet are somewhere in the middle of the pack. On other forums, it's often the steroids forum that is first.

For example, I personally am spending a bit less on supplements and more on protein and total caloric intake. I'm training hard but I'm going to force myself to up the intensity even further. And supplements will be just that, supplements to a high protein intake, sufficient calories, and training focused on lifting progressively heavier weights. This is what brought me results in the past and no supplement alone is going to make my arms 17.5", but a lot of food, protein, and getting much stronger will.

 

[Quads_of_Stee]

you are also forgetting that the forums are pretty niche and dominated by people who came looking for supplement advice in the first place. While it may seem like a lot of people are being represented on the forums, it is truly only those that take the time to figure out things about supplements.

I completely agree on supplements being meant to supplement not to be based off of (except for creatine and BA)

 

[ma70]

I'm pretty sure a few of us usually state that diet/training is most important before recommending supplements...but I agree.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Here's may take: I agree with you - it's a no brainer after you research sports nutrition for a while. It's a 60 billion dollar a year industry though (what's cosmetics take in?), so you're going to see what we have now, no matter what. As far as this site, you just have to realize that it probably exists in its current form because of supplements - so I'm ok with the supplement focus because I receive a benefit because of it. But since I'm a skeptic, I just debate any over the top claims and the world goes 'round. Yes, there is a majority supplement push here, but there is a just as vocal minority supplement "debunking" group if you will - which I think balances out to a great final product in the end for the reader/member.

 

[john.patterson]

I'm pretty sure a few of us usually state that diet/training is most important before recommending supplements...but I agree.

Agreed, most people on the boards who give the best advice always suggest dialing in nutrition and training before recommending any supps. But a lot of questions are supplement based, especially in this section: "the Supplement section"

 

[ahawk01]

Supplements can be a link in a chain. They are not meant to be the cornerstone. I just wish more supplement companies were worried about the right things.

 

[BeardedBreast]

Good lawd...... So your arms aren't 17.5 yet...... Though you're telling those whose are, they're doing it wrong...... Lol

 

[kisaj]

you are also forgetting that the forums are pretty niche and dominated by people who came looking for supplement advice in the first place. While it may seem like a lot of people are being represented on the forums, it is truly only those that take the time to figure out things about supplements.

I completely agree on supplements being meant to supplement not to be based off of (except for creatine and BA)

I'm pretty sure a few of us usually state that diet/training is most important before recommending supplements...but I agree.

Agreed, most people on the boards who give the best advice always suggest dialing in nutrition and training before recommending any supps. But a lot of questions are supplement based, especially in this section: "the Supplement section"

Bingo.

 

[Justlooking5]

Good lawd...... So your arms aren't 17.5 yet...... Though you're telling those whose are, they're doing it wrong...... Lol

No dude, and my arms have been 17.5" before. I haven't seen your pics, but I think I've been about as big or bigger than you are, so that's not really a reason to claim you know more. I've been training again since March but my peak weight in the past was 238 at 6'.

I'm not telling you "you're doing it wrong." I was simply looking at my training plan and noticed how much I had gotten into focusing on supplements (you even list your supps in your sig for example).

Also, on this and most boards, the "main forum" or the first one on the list is the supplements or steroids forum ... it just goes to show that people (in western culture in particular probably) have a tendency to focus on pills first ... and we're constantly bombarded with advertisements about new supps... perhaps to a degree we're being distracted by what's most important in terms of getting results (which, until they bring out something as powerful as a regular dose of gear, is diet/training still, and even with gear, training and diet still matter a lot).

I think it's always good to have a reminder about what makes the most difference.

I guess my point is this. Once you have several of the basic supps added.... and you're deciding whether to spend that 150 bucks on "xyz pills" or buying a bunch of whey protein and upping your protein intake to 3-400g per day ... which will give the better result? It's an interesting question that isn't really answerable without controlled studies or at least anecdotal results ... anyway, this is a food for thought kind of post that I made when I decided to start spending a bit less on supps and instead go through a kilo of whey each week in addition to casein and whole food protein.

 

[LovingtoLift]

Remember the supplement industry for the most part is filled with a lot of snake oil. Choose wisely. Yes there are products out there that work, but many that are unproven. If your budget allows you to choose one or the other (Not Both), definitely spend that money on real food. Its a no brainer. Have money left over after you take care of your groceries? Then treat yourself to what you feel helps you perform better in the gym and will help you out with getting the results you want. This is where coming on here can really be beneficial!

 

[Justlooking5]

And I look and I see that we are bombarded with supp adds (I see two right now as I post this)... I'm not saying any of this is bad. It's GOOD that the supp industry keeps trying to come out with new, more effective stuff. I'm just saying don't get sucked too far into the supp companies' game of buying "the next big thing," or focusing on supps to the detriment training, nutrition, and total protein intake. When I worked at GNC back in the day after high school, people always would come in and say sh*t like "you mean I have to workout with hydroxycut to lose fat?" There's just a human tendency to get caught up in shortcuts and lose sight what makes the most difference.

 

[BRUstrong]

Not only do a lot of guys here advise that diet/training comes first, but they practice it. Thus, allowing those who understand the basics to come in a here and chit chat about the next big "xyz supplement." The problem, as you've identified, is that many newcomers to fitness jump straight into supplementation (I see this more in the anabolic section, which is disturbing because some of these guys have no clue what they are getting into).

 

[LovingtoLift]

Guys that consider Anabolics should only do so when competing and also at the level where they have reached their genetic potential. Just my opinion. I agree it is disturbing to read people who haven't even done this that start taking anabolics.

 

[Justlooking5]

Not only do a lot of guys here advise that diet/training comes first, but they practice it. Thus, allowing those who understand the basics to come in a here and chit chat about the next big "xyz supplement." The problem, as you've identified, is that many newcomers to fitness jump straight into supplementation (I see this more in the anabolic section, which is disturbing because some of these guys have no clue what they are getting into).

True, but I guess another way to ask this question is this (the way I was thinking about it when I wrote this post).

Let's say I'm bulking and I have a certain amount of money I can spend on supplements. Once I buy several good products (BA, SL, creatine, etc., plus maybe a few new things like arachidonic acid), am I better off spending the rest of my money on more supplements, or buying a ton of whey protein and upping my protein to 3-400g per day (which I doubt most people on the supp board who are bulking are doing, though I could be wrong).

I don't have the answer because I haven't done any controlled studies, but it wouldn't surprise me if the very high protein approach is the one that yielded more muscle... it's the question I was debating last evening when I wrote this post, and I decided to spend less on supplements and more on increasing my protein intake to over 300g/day.

 

[ma70]

No dude, and my arms have been 17.5" before. I haven't seen your pics, but I think I've been about as big or bigger than you are, so that's not really a reason to claim you know more. I've been training again since March but my peak weight in the past was 238 at 6'.

I'm not telling you "you're doing it wrong." I was simply looking at my training plan and noticed how much I had gotten into focusing on supplements (you even list your supps in your sig for example).

Also, on this and most boards, the "main forum" or the first one on the list is the supplements or steroids forum ... it just goes to show that people (in western culture in particular probably) have a tendency to focus on pills first ... and we're constantly bombarded with advertisements about new supps... perhaps to a degree we're being distracted by what's most important in terms of getting results (which, until they bring out something as powerful as a regular dose of gear, is diet/training still, and even with gear, training and diet still matter a lot).

I think it's always good to have a reminder about what makes the most difference.

I guess my point is this. Once you have several of the basic supps added.... and you're deciding whether to spend that 150 bucks on "xyz pills" or buying a bunch of whey protein and upping your protein intake to 3-400g per day ... which will give the better result? It's an interesting question that isn't really answerable without controlled studies or at least anecdotal results ... anyway, this is a food for thought kind of post that I made when I decided to start spending a bit less on supps and instead go through a kilo of whey each week in addition to casein and whole food protein.

Totally agreeing with you. I've run some supplement stacks that were too much and I got tired of optimizing and taking pills all the time. I try to keep things to a minimum now (max of 3 non-staples).

 

[john.patterson]

True, but I guess another way to ask this question is this (the way I was thinking about it when I wrote this post).

Let's say I'm bulking and I have a certain amount of money I can spend on supplements. Once I buy several good products (BA, SL, creatine, etc., plus maybe a few new things like arachidonic acid), am I better off spending the rest of my money on more supplements, or buying a ton of whey protein and upping my protein to 3-400g per day (which I doubt most people on the supp board who are bulking are doing, though I could be wrong).

I don't have the answer because I haven't done any controlled studies, but it wouldn't surprise me if the very high protein approach is the one that yielded more muscle... it's the question I was debating last evening when I wrote this post, and I decided to spend less on supplements and more on increasing my protein intake to over 300g/day.

I get where you're coming from, but consuming an upwards of 300g of protein per day will have no added benefit in muscle gain. Protein consumption in that great of an excess cannot be utilized by the body, and will most likely be burned as energy or stored as fat.

Obviously this is depending on your body weight, but for a natural athlete, 300g+ is over the top. Whey protein and insanely high protein intake would be more of a waste of money than experimenting with other natural supplements with proven studies that deliver results IMO. More protein doesn't equate to more muscle gain, there is a threshold to protein intake.

 

[Justlooking5]

I get where you're coming from, but consuming an upwards of 300g of protein per day will have no added benefit in muscle gain. Protein consumption in that great of an excess cannot be utilized by the body, and will most likely be burned as energy or stored as fat.

Obviously this is depending on your body weight, but for a natural athlete, 300g+ is over the top. Whey protein and insanely high protein intake would be more of a waste of money than experimenting with other natural supplements with proven studies that deliver results IMO. More protein doesn't equate to more muscle gain, there is a threshold to protein intake.

Well, that may be the prevailing wisdom among some these days, but unless you can show me a bunch of studies (not even just one or two) done on hard training bodybuilders who tried varying protein intakes, I don't think this is actually known yet. Guys like Doggcrapp (and Ronnie Coleman actually) suggest protein intakes approaching 2g/lb...

At 216, I'm actually only eating about 85g more than my g/lb. would suggest. It will at least be an interesting experiment. I don't think there's any reason to think that more than 1g/lb. is automatically wasted in terms of building muscle. There just haven't been enough studies done on seriously training bodybuilders to know that, and a lot of anecdotal feedback and recommendations from guys who are big suggests protein intakes above 1g/lb.

Doggcrapp for example suggests 1.5-2g/lb., which for me would be up to 430g/day... sounds like a lot, and I'm not on gear, but this guy has trained several pro athletes and helped them get past sticking points (Dusty Hanshaw as an example), and many people including myself have gotten really good results from his overall program.

 

[ma70]

Unless you can show me a bunch of studies (not even just one or two) done on hard training bodybuilders who tried varying protein intakes, I don't think this is actually known yet. Guys like Doggcrapp (and Ronnie Coleman actually) suggest protein intakes approaching 2g/lb...

At 216, I'm actually only eating about 85g more than my g/lb. would suggest. It will at least be an interesting experiment. I don't think there's any reason to think that more than 1g/lb. is automatically wasted in terms of building muscle. There just haven't been enough studies done on seriously training bodybuilders to know that, and a lot of anecdotal feedback and recommendations from guys who are big suggests protein intakes above 1g/lb.

Everyone reacts differently to macros. Personally, I've never used over 0.8g/lb protein and I still recover fine, make gains, blah blah.

 

[Justlooking5]

True, and I've always been on the slimmer ecto-meso side of things and have felt I needed a lot of protein to offset catabolism and promote growth.

 

[BRUstrong]

Well, that may be the prevailing wisdom among some these days, but unless you can show me a bunch of studies (not even just one or two) done on hard training bodybuilders who tried varying protein intakes, I don't think this is actually known yet. Guys like Doggcrapp (and Ronnie Coleman actually) suggest protein intakes approaching 2g/lb...

At 216, I'm actually only eating about 85g more than my g/lb. would suggest. It will at least be an interesting experiment. I don't think there's any reason to think that more than 1g/lb. is automatically wasted in terms of building muscle. There just haven't been enough studies done on seriously training bodybuilders to know that, and a lot of anecdotal feedback and recommendations from guys who are big suggests protein intakes above 1g/lb.

Doggcrapp for example suggests 1.5-2g/lb., which for me would be up to 430g/day... sounds like a lot, and I'm not on gear, but this guy has trained several pro athletes and helped them get past sticking points (Dusty Hanshaw as an example), and many people including myself have gotten really good results from his overall program.

In your hypothetical, you'd be better off buying real food than a ton of whey. Doesn't sound like you've got the fundamentals of diet down brother....

 

[john.patterson]

Guys like Doggcrapp (and Ronnie Coleman actually) suggest protein intakes approaching 2g/lb...

...Doggcrapp for example suggests 1.5-2g/lb., which for me would be up to 430g/day... sounds like a lot, and I'm not on gear, but this guy has trained several pro athletes and helped them get past sticking points (Dusty Hanshaw as an example), and many people including myself have gotten really good results from his overall program.

Keep in mind that the two athletes you've referenced are not even close to natural. The results and protein intake requirements will vary drastically between natural and enhanced athletes. I get where you're coming from, but don't attribute their success to extra protein intake.

Experiment with a higher protein intake and see what happens, everyone is different. I don't think it will benefit you much, but its worth a try. And I fully agree with BRUstrong about buying extra whey, you'd be far better off spending your money at the grocery store as opposed to buying a surplus of whey.

 

[kisaj]

Over my years I have experimented with 1g-3g/lb protein and there is very little, if any, difference IMO. Playing with carb intake has garnered the most differences and I play with them based on specific goals. In the end, it comes down to understanding what you need to intake from overall calories and secondly, macros, to maintain. Then you adjust from there.

 

[Jiigzz]

This board isnt 'prioritized' to lead people to think that supplements are most important, or more important, than training and nutrition. Its that way because its why the majority of people come here.

Supplements are not a vital component, but they sure make training more exciting and enjoyable. Plus, its hard for a forum business to survive without advertising and sponsorship.

on a nootropics board, do you tell them they need to only focus on sleep and brain training amd assume they didnt know that already? It adds an element to it that keeps it exciting. There are many boards out there dedicated solely to fitness, exercise and nutrition and serve that market well; this board represents the supplement side (business, experiences and science) as well as the other more general aspects.

 

[BRUstrong]

Lesson of the day: Don't come into the Supplement Forum and start bashing people that use and/or like to discuss supplements

 

[john.patterson]

Lesson of the day: Don't come into the Supplement Forum and start bashing people that use and/or like to discuss supplements

Hahahaha, this is perfect.

 

[BlackTiger22]

cardio without alphamine ..nope nope nope

 

[Hockeyaus33]

you are also forgetting that the forums are pretty niche and dominated by people who came looking for supplement advice in the first place. While it may seem like a lot of people are being represented on the forums, it is truly only those that take the time to figure out things about supplements.

I completely agree on supplements being meant to supplement not to be based off of (except for creatine and BA)

this... when you are in Rome, do as Romans do.

For as backwards as most supplement forums are, this one in particular very rarely suggests taking supplements as a replacement for food, training, sleep, etc

Although sometimes people do recommend boner supplements instead of finding a woman who knows what shes doing.... but we will leave that for a different time

 

[liftingamber12]

As a female who uses supplements, for various reasons, I can say this....without proper diet & training the supplements are not nearly as effective, if at all. Most of us here take our nutrition & training very seriously & it is prioritized at the top of the list, & we encourage others to do so as well. Do supplements help us reach goals sometimes? Yes , and I personally feel it's just that...A personal choice. Can supplements even be used outside of training? Yes. I use Sustain Alpha to increase my libido sometimes. So what. However, like others have said, why come on a supplement forum that is SPONSORED BY supplement companies bashing the use of supps??

 

[rascal14]

Don't be that guy..

"I used to be way bigger than you are now" Everyone hates that guy.

 

[BRUstrong]

Don't be that guy..

"I used to be way bigger than you are now" Everyone hates that guy.

Hahaha, that reminds me of something that recently happened to me. A guy asked me to spot him on bench. He was putting up 215. I really don't care how much people lift, as long as they are lifting correctly (e.g., squatting to depth). Anyway, after he got done with his set I said "nice job" and started to walk away. He felt the need to stop me and explain how he used to be WAY stronger but is coming back from a shoulder injury. Cool story bro!

 

[Jiigzz]

There are quite a few studies assessing protein requirements in strength athletes, and given the several studies that assess strength vs hypertrophy for muscle growth and finding no huge difference between the two (yes, limitations but still interesting), could these studies not apply, even somewhat to the bodybuilding population?

This doesn't take into account AAS, however. Food for thought.

 

[Justlooking5]

In your hypothetical, you'd be better off buying real food than a ton of whey. Doesn't sound like you've got the fundamentals of diet down brother....

I do, don't worry. I eat enough whole food protein, but bulk whey isolate is actually cheaper per gram of protein than the meat I buy (all natural).

 

[Justlooking5]

Don't be that guy..

"I used to be way bigger than you are now" Everyone hates that guy.

Honestly, so the **** what. He made the claim that he was bigger than I am and therefore implied he knew better because of that.

 

[Justlooking5]

Lesson of the day: Don't come into the Supplement Forum and start bashing people that use and/or like to discuss supplements

Lesson of the day:

Don't interpret someone raising a simple question about whether we are doing things optimally as "bashing."

That's the problem with some of you... intolerance to ideas that contrast with the way you're doing things now.

I never said, "You're all idiots who don't know what you're doing."

I did say, "I have made this error, and I think a lot of other people have the tendency to make it as well," and then brought up a very reasonable question for debate, which is, once a few basics are in place, is it better to spend additional money on supplements or more protein.

Totally reasonable points to raise, I didn't personally attack anyone, and then you get a bunch of butthurt forum members who want to talk a bunch of **** about how they have bigger arms now, yada yada.

 

[Justlooking5]

There are quite a few studies assessing protein requirements in strength athletes, and given the several studies that assess strength vs hypertrophy for muscle growth and finding no huge difference between the two (yes, limitations but still interesting), could these studies not apply, even somewhat to the bodybuilding population?

This doesn't take into account AAS, however. Food for thought.

I tend to trust my own experience more than some of these studies ... I get better gains on high protein and frequent whey shakes. It may not apply to everyone, but several guys who are really big bodybuilders and have trained others to also get really large suggest protein intake in the 1.5-2g/lb. range. Could you utilize the protein better if you were on gear? Probably, but that doesn't mean there is no added benefit if you are not.

 

[Jiigzz]

I tend to trust my own experience more than some of these studies ... I get better gains on high protein and frequent whey shakes. It may not apply to everyone, but several guys who are really big bodybuilders and have trained others to also get really large suggest protein intake in the 1.5-2g/lb. range. Could you utilize the protein better if you were on gear? Probably, but that doesn't mean there is no added benefit if you are not.

But back here you said :

Well, that may be the prevailing wisdom among some these days, but unless you can show me a bunch of studies (not even just one or two) done on hard training bodybuilders who tried varying protein intakes, I don't think this is actually known yet. Guys like Doggcrapp (and Ronnie Coleman actually) suggest protein intakes approaching 2g/lb...

I was just saying protein requirement studies exist, and the results could be extrapolated for the BBing population if we also look at studies that compare strength vs hypertrophy and muscle mass. Of course there are limitations (total volume not approaching what a BBer might actually use) but its the best we have. Plus there are very limited studies on bodybuilding populations that show no added benefit.

Meh, but whatever works for you I was just adding my 2 cents on that comment in case it interested you

 

[BRUstrong]

Lesson of the day:

Don't interpret someone raising a simple question about whether we are doing things optimally as "bashing."

That's the problem with some of you... intolerance to ideas that contrast with the way you're doing things now.

I never said, "You're all idiots who don't know what you're doing."

I did say, "I have made this error, and I think a lot of other people have the tendency to make it as well," and then brought up a very reasonable question for debate, which is, once a few basics are in place, is it better to spend additional money on supplements or more protein.

Totally reasonable points to raise, I didn't personally attack anyone, and then you get a bunch of butthurt forum members who want to talk a bunch of **** about how they have bigger arms now, yada yada.

Whey protein powder is a supplement.

 

[Justlooking5]

But back here you said :



I was just saying protein requirement studies exist, and the results could be extrapolated for the BBing population if we also look at studies that compare strength vs hypertrophy and muscle mass. Of course there are limitations (total volume not approaching what a BBer might actually use) but its the best we have. Plus there are very limited studies on bodybuilding populations that show no added benefit.

I just assumed you were interested in the data

You know what they say about assuming. I already stated I am interested in the data dude, as you quoted.

However, if I get better gains personally by doing something different than what the data states, I'm going to continue doing that.

Besides, I don't think there are a bunch of studies discussing bodybuilders specifically. You may be able to extrapolate from other studies, but whether it is correct or not is another question.

Besides, I would still put more credence in guys who have gotten themselves and other guys significantly larger in bodybuilding than a few extrapolated studies from other types of athletes.

 

[Justlooking5]

Whey protein powder is a supplement.

Now you're just being a dick, and I'm not going to argue with you anymore about it. My points were made clear in my original post.

 

[BRUstrong]

You know what they say about assuming. I already stated I am interested in the data dude, as you quoted.

However, if I get better gains personally by doing something different than what the data states, I'm going to continue doing that.

Besides, I don't think there are a bunch of studies discussing bodybuilders specifically. You may be able to extrapolate from other studies, but whether it is correct or not is another question.

Besides, I would still put more credence in guys who have gotten themselves and other guys significantly larger than a few extrapolated studies from other types of atheletes.

If you already have all of the answers, then why are you here? We are not being intolerant, I just fail to see your purpose in posting. You already stated that you have your diet and training in check; and that you know what works best for you; and that you're better off spending your money on real food or non-supplemental supplemental whey protein powder.

So if you don't have a question about a supplement, why are you posting? See, you didn't come in and post an open-ended question for intelligent debate. You came in and stated your position and then defended it. Don't poke the bear then get upset when it bites.

 

[BRUstrong]

Now you're just being a dick, and I'm not going to argue with you anymore about it. My points were made clear in my original post.

I was actually simply stating a fact. Now people who state the truth are dicks? You're a tough critic

 

[Justlooking5]

If you already have all of the answers, then why are you here? We are not being intolerant, I just fail to see your purpose in posting. You already stated that you have your diet and training in check; and that you know what works best for you; and that you're better off spending your money on real food or non-supplemental supplemental whey protein powder.

So if you don't have a question about a supplement, why are you posting? See, you didn't come in and post an open-ended question for intelligent debate. You came in and stated your position and then defended it. Don't poke the bear then get upset when it bites.

This thread was intended to be an intelligent, thoughtful discussion about at which point money is better spent on protein/food than on additional supplements, or what the right balance is.

Instead, you and several others came in here just to talk **** and act like you've been personally attacked, and derailed what was, prior to you and a few others posting, an interesting debate. I don't have any respect for people like yourself who resort to mocking/talking **** to people for the reasons you decided to.

 

[Justlooking5]

I was actually simply stating a fact. Now people who state the truth are dicks? You're a tough critic

I think your problem is that you actually have the intellectual arrogance to be sure that you're stating the truth. Besides, "Don't poke the bear and be upset when it bites."

Thanks for coming in to what was previously a respectful, thoughtful discussion, and ruining it by talking a bunch of ****.

 

[rascal14]

How is talking about buying supplements a thoughtful and intelligent conversation lol

 

[BRUstrong]

No problem. I'm an attorney, it's what I do. Good day, sir.

 

[ahawk01]

Protein isn't cheap. I never understand someone worrying about some else spending money. If wanna stock up pink magic cause I love my gains from it. Who's it hurting?

 

[john.patterson]

Well, this certainly escalated quickly.....

At the end of the day, your money and your budget is your business. Diet and training should ALWAYS come first. If your goal is to argue against people providing answers to your question with research, then don't ask the question in the first place.

If something is working for you (like taking in 300g+ of protein per day) then keep doing it. Do what works for YOU. Buy what fits YOUR BUDGET. Most will find it to be a waste, and there are studies that show its a waste.

But at the end of the day, its your money and your decision.

/thread

 

[ahawk01]

People tell me all the time bcaas are a waste, but I love sipping them during my workouts fasted or not.

 

[Jiigzz]

You know what they say about assuming. I already stated I am interested in the data dude, as you quoted.

However, if I get better gains personally by doing something different than what the data states, I'm going to continue doing that.

Besides, I don't think there are a bunch of studies discussing bodybuilders specifically. You may be able to extrapolate from other studies, but whether it is correct or not is another question.

Besides, I would still put more credence in guys who have gotten themselves and other guys significantly larger in bodybuilding than a few extrapolated studies from other types of athletes.

Bear in mind, AAS, GH, Slin etc all play a role in BBing and so to trust advice of someone like Ronnie simply because he is big ignores the fact that non gear uses respond remarkedly different.

when you change your physiology that much its just a game of trial and error

 

[BeardedBreast]

How old are you OP. How many degrees in nutrition do you have? I have 2