Interesting question: If you go on HRT, and keep everything within a normal range, do you still consider that natural?
This was the discussion I had. I said if you are restoring normal levels, its still natural. The other guy said no....no matter what, if you add anything its not considered natural anymore. He uses the term "natural" to mean whatever you naturally are and for older men, thats lower test. If was an interesting convo...If the therapy restores you to being natural I would say so, if it puts you above your natural levels then no.
Well in my view if you need TRT, because without it you are not the man you 'should' be, then you are unnatural, and the TRT would restore you to natural status. Everyone is bombarded with toxins that play havoc on hormones and other things anyway. So really how are most people natural these days?This was the discussion I had. I said if you are restoring normal levels, its still natural. The other guy said no....no matter what, if you add anything its not considered natural anymore. He uses the term "natural" to mean whatever you naturally are and for older men, thats lower test. If was an interesting convo...
So anyone who has taken Melatonin in their life are instantly no longer natural?From a pure definition of natural standpoint, anything taken exogenous besides food or food derivatives is unnatural, even if the HRT is done to restore someone's level to what the "normal" amount for their age range is. Letting the body run its course, whether its different from the general population or not, is what is truly natural.
From a competitve bodybuilding standpoint, as long as the hormone levels stay within the natural body building limit of the competitors then the person would probably be considered a natural bodybuilder still
Yes.So anyone who has taken Melatonin in their life are instantly no longer natural?
Brb re evaluating my life and changing username...Yes.
Actual lol.Brb re elevating my life and changing username...
seems silly doesn't it? But if you we are going by pure definition of natural then it would not be natural to take melatonin.So anyone who has taken Melatonin in their life are instantly no longer natural?
Yes but you were asking for it when you made the topic. I think its a good debate. The issue with asking a bunch of bodybuilders what natural means to them is we are desensitized by the supplement industry and culture to the point where we automatically become fixated on steroid hormones when we think of natty vs unnatty.Which sort of makes term "natural" irrelevant if it means two different t things.
Its more or less a buzz word used to describe someone who doesnt use exogenous hormones for the purpose of altering the bodys natural capacity to build muscle and drop body fat.Which sort of makes term "natural" irrelevant if it means two different t things.
Which is the point.....is there a universal definition? Are we using WADA's specifications? The good bro's? Who's?Yes but you were asking for it when you made the topic. I think its a good debate.
See here, while i understand what you are saying but you coined your version of what you believe 'natural' means based on conscience (sub-conscience) biases. If we look at the actual oxford dictionary defined term of 'natural'seems silly doesn't it? But if you we are going by pure definition of natural then it would not be natural to take melatonin.
From a bodybuilding world definition, of course we still consider melatonin natural.
I assume most people in this thread are going into this debate with a "bodybuilding world" mindset where the limits of nattyness will stop at prohormones and/or even SARMS. In that case of course the definition of natty that I provided sounds silly. But I came in here to mix it up a bit. Those bozos that claim taking whey protein and creatine make you are often made fun of in the mainstream bodybuilding world, but they also make a valid point
No. Everytime someone juices they call it HRTInteresting question: If you go on HRT, and keep everything within a normal range, do you still consider that natural?
They are just as bad as anything else you named. Only thing is sports wise, you don't get an unfair competitive advantage from cigarettes. The PED argument is about an unfair advantage and i think ppl turn it into a "well so and so is bad for u also" ussue.Nothing natural about GMO foods either. Or shooting gold into apples to prevent decay. Fluoride and jet fuel in the water. Is anything natural anymore?
People want to say steroids are bad while holding a beer in one and a cigarette in the other. Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing.
Thats my angle as well.They are just as bad as anything else you named. Only thing is sports wise, you don't get an unfair competitive advantage from cigarettes. The PED argument is about an unfair advantage and i think ppl turn it into a "well so and so is bad for u also" ussue.
But how do you define cheating? The point being, the rules don't make any sense.Maybe it comes down to cheating and having a unfair advantage? Because if being natural or unnatural didn't change those factors I don't think anyone would give a sh#t.
Then is it cheeting if they eat more? Is it cheeting if they have a coach that trains them in a way that works better? At then end of the day there are a lot more factors that come into play than where your test levels sit at.Maybe it comes down to cheating and having a unfair advantage? Because if being natural or unnatural didn't change those factors I don't think anyone would give a sh#t.
There are more factors if you want to nip pick but at some point you have to boil it down to its essence. I believe I just stated it. So that's the starting point. Is it cheating? Does this guy have an unfair advantage vie means that are classified as ILLEGAL PEDS?Then is it cheeting if they eat more? Is it cheeting if they have a coach that trains them in a way that works better? At then end of the day there are a lot more factors that come into play than where your test levels sit at.
The rules are like the law and the constitution, they dont make sense and for sports are there to help level the playing field. Its like no corked or aluminum bats in baseball. Also like how all these Nascar teams try to push the rules and get penalized. If you compete, there are rules. But sometimes people "well these rules suck so imma use product xyz" ok well then dont compete because the only people who dont see it as an ufair advantage are the ones using it. Ive competed wresting, Judo, powerlifting and NPC bodybuilding. Ive heard it all.But how do you define cheating? The point being, the rules don't make any sense.
Rules constantly change based on new information and viewpoints, therefore I question them. They literally don't make sense when it comes to supplements/ped's/steroids.The rules are like the law and the constitution, they dont make sense and for sports are there to help level the playing field. Its like no corked or aluminum bats in baseball. Also like how all these Nascar teams try to push the rules and get penalized. If you compete, there are rules. But sometimes people "well these rules suck so imma use product xyz" ok well then dont compete because the only people who dont see it as an ufair advantage are the ones using it. Ive competed wresting, Judo, powerlifting and NPC bodybuilding. Ive heard it all.
Now for the average person on AM, the argument is more like if weed is legal why cant I have my prohormones. Thats a dif argument and in the US yeah people should have the choice to use whatever they want to a certain extent, but here the other side is liability. Someone always had to be liable. 13 year olds who smoke dont often get lung cancer at 13. 13 year olds who use superdrol for 8 weeks will end up w a fcked up liver and be on HRT almost forever
Yet if you get plasma treatment for "injuries" it's legal. Makes a lot of senseAlso cheating is prob defined as doing something usually by not abiding by the rules to purposly gain a,competitive advantage. If I am a marathon runner and decide to have a high oxygen blood transfusion a day before the New York marathon....thats cheating. Its cheating bc its blood doping and all the other runnners didnt go get one
Well they make sense to a degree. For instance a dietary supplement has to be naturally occuring somewhere or an amino or vitamin. Everything else cant be labeled a dietary supplement. Its not technically dietary. Now that doesnt mean its a class 3 drug either but its not dietary. You want to see some crazy rules, look at the UK registry for what herbs are legal and whatare notRules constantly change based on new information and viewpoints, therefore I question them. They literally don't make sense when it comes to supplements/ped's/steroids.
Yet platelet rich plasma treatments which increase recovery MUCH faster than steroids is legal.I think those type of questions have to be left up to the person in charge to set.
If it were I would allow TRT for those that fell short if the healthy range and cortisone injections for those that needed it.
But that's just ME. I believe that's kinda common sence decision making though. But again that would have to be left to the actual decision maker.
F#ck!!! (tourette's)
My argument has nothing to do with supplements. WADA banned deer antler velvet. That in itself shows how clueless those who make rules are.Well they make sense to a degree. For instance a dietary supplement has to be naturally occuring somewhere or an amino or vitamin. Everything else cant be labeled a dietary supplement. Its not technically dietary. Now that doesnt mean its a class 3 drug either but its not dietary. You want to see some crazy rules, look at the UK registry for what herbs are legal and whatare not
If someone wants steroids then they can go get a prescription for them....they,just better not plan on competing bc the compition isnt all on steroids. To your benifit. The USOC lifted the caffeine limit allowed by athletes........Yet platelet rich plasma treatments which increase recovery MUCH faster than steroids is legal.
Now I can perform and recover much faster than my genetic potential by prescription drugs and none are steroids and all are legal.
But steroids are bad....
And that's his choice...and I understand when you chose to do that you have to abide by the rules.I saw a,post abt WADA but cant find it. I sponsor a WADA bodybuilder. He cant take next to nothing. So he either competes in WADA tested events where not many guys are over 200lbs ripped.....or he can go non-test NPC where,people are 5'7" 220lbs w 2% bodyfat.
Steroids are prescribed also....to animals. Most of them are actually developed for horses etc. Not humans. A lot of sports dont allow injectioms. Pacquiao coudnt get one b4 that Mayweather fight. Its not like the only thing banned are anabolic steroids. Some nootropics are banned.And that's his choice...and I understand when you chose to do that you have to abide by the rules.
I just think what they seem legal and illegal ridiculous at times. Like I said, treatments that help recovery that are prescription injections are fine...yet steroids are not. It seems odd.
That's my point.Steroids are prescribed also....to animals. Most of them are actually developed for horses etc. Not humans. A lot of sports dont allow injectioms. Pacquiao coudnt get one b4 that Mayweather fight. Its not like the only thing banned are anabolic steroids. Some nootropics are banned.
Do you mean "fine" as in everyday life or in sports bc those are two dif things that seem to b always grouped together.
Well if i dont need Cortisone and I take a shot....it will not enhance my performance. Some sports dont allow them such as boxing. They also probably treat it as a pain reliever like ibuprofen or acetaminophen. Idk. Cortisone isnt allowed before a boxing match title fightThat's my point.
Steroids were developed to help recovery and they are legal by prescription. They are banned.
Cortisone shots and platelet rich therapy are injections by prescription and they are legal in most sports.
Why?
And if you take steroids and don't lift, nothing happens.Well if i dont need Cortisone and I take a shot....it will not enhance my performance. Some sports dont allow them such as boxing. They also probably treat it as a pain reliever like ibuprofen or acetaminophen. Idk. Cortisone isnt allowed before a boxing match title fight
That's my point.
Steroids were developed to help recovery and they are legal by prescription. They are banned.
Cortisone shots and platelet rich therapy are injections by prescription and they are legal in most sports.
Why?