Why aren't there more single nitrate products?

[kisaj]

Just curious why there aren't more companies coming out with single nitrate products that could be purchased outside of blends? My go to is iForce PN, which I love, but why not more options.

 

[Nyrin]

Thermolife has a patent on the ever-popular amino nitrates; I imagine that limits things a bit.

I'm in the same boat, though. After being spoiled by the likes of High Volume and Max Out, preworkouts -- even good ones like Conqu3r -- that don't have nitrates just can't compare. If I could add some standalone nitrates easily enough, that'd help a lot.

 

[kisaj]

I thought that was rejected?

 

[De__eB]

I thought that was rejected?

Nope, in fact, recently expanded.

 

[hvactech]

4 reputable companies have nitrates solo... thats plenty in the nitrate world

 

[kisaj]

4 reputable companies have nitrates solo... thats plenty in the nitrate world

Nice, hopefully they chime in.

 

[schizm]

Finaflex has MaxPump for that betaine nitrate

 

[hvactech]

Finaflex has MaxPump for that betaine nitrate

Iforce k-nitrates
Cellucor kno3
Purus labs NOxygen

 

[De__eB]

Finaflex has MaxPump for that betaine nitrate

Not any more

 

[schizm]

Not any more

Lol, I almost included not knowing where it stood legally in my reply :doh:

 

[kisaj]

So in reality there aren't many at all, but it sounds like it could be related to a patent issue. Got it.

 

[paul56778]

What about iforce Potassium Nitrate / http://www.iforcenutrition.com/potassiumnitrate.asp

are BCAA Nitrates any good for pump.

 

[kisaj]

That's the one I always use.

 

[dkgreene88]

That's a good question. Maybe it's a price issue

 

[Swolbraham]

They're an owned patent

 

[heavylifter33]

iForce Potassium Nitrate is my go-to.

Fuk RK

 

[kisaj]

iForce Potassium Nitrate is my go-to.

Fuk RK

Yeah, like I mentioned, it is my go to. My only fear is reliance on one brand and if they decided to scrap it or change it, then the options are limited.

 

[hvactech]

I can vouch for NOxygen

 

[heavylifter33]

Yeah, like I mentioned, it is my go to. My only fear is reliance on one brand and if they decided to scrap it or change it, then the options are limited.

For sure. If i ever feel like something is on the edge i usually stock up. RK will do his thing, but last i checked this new round of patent trolling failed. I've been out of the loop for a few weeks so i may be behind the times.

 

[djwolford]

That's a good question. Maybe it's a price issue

I'd guess this. Not necessarily price, but not much market demand and not much profit?

 

[Quads_of_Stee]

NOxygen was amazing when I took it. Nitrates and hydromax are a good combo.

 

[Swolbraham]

For sure. If i ever feel like something is on the edge i usually stock up. RK will do his thing, but last i checked this new round of patent trolling failed. I've been out of the loop for a few weeks so i may be behind the times.

I think a tad behind, last i checked, NOXygen, Condense and D-Pol are on the way out

I don't blame him, it's his intellectual property and companies are making millions off of it behind his back hoping he doesn't notice, instead of just going through him. No one wants to do what's right, they want the quick fix or money maker in this industry, or in life for that matter

 

[Tabascoonall]

I think a tad behind, last i checked, NOXygen, Condense and D-Pol are on the way out

I don't blame him, it's his intellectual property and companies are making millions off of it behind his back hoping he doesn't notice, instead of just going through him. No one wants to do what's right, they want the quick fix or money maker in this industry, or in life for that matter

current they are being sued... not looking to hot right now, will know more and final outcome in the week too come.

 

[kisaj]

Stock up time. I'm glad I started this thread or I'd have no idea about these lawsuits and possible demise of products.

 

[Swolbraham]

well i'm sure their will be more products with them, they just have to go through the patent holder. lol going behind someone's back to use an ingredient that's tied in a patent is the issue, not necessarily that he doesnt want them being used

 

[kisaj]

What do we think that will do to cost and will it make it worth it?

 

[Est1995]

Is it possible to buy bulk food grade sodium nitrate (similar to Nitratene found in Purus Labs supps) and use that?

 

[Swolbraham]

well i'm sure their will be more products with them, they just have to go through the patent holder. lol going behind someone's back to use an ingredient that's tied in a patent is the issue, not necessarily that he doesnt want them being used

i don't think cost will change all that much, tbh.

i mean i'm not the patent holder, but i'd venture to guess it wouldn't be priced stupid expensive considering the lawsuits will net him money as well for those using his intellectual property. PES did it the right way (the NO3-T Patent/Trademark) and High Volume isn't stupid expensive

 

[hvactech]

Is it possible to buy bulk food grade sodium nitrate (similar to Nitratene found in Purus Labs supps) and use that?

Ive researched potassium nitrate in bulk form via crop fertilizer... came up short on my findings

 

[De__eB]

What do we think that will do to cost and will it make it worth it?

There are a ton of companies already selling nitrates with a license.

It doesn't seem to contribute unreasonably to cost.

 

[Tabascoonall]

Only lone star is carrying it at the moment for distrubution, Europa isn't carrying it anymore since the law suit. I don't even think they are carring dpol or condense either for the same reason

IF you want me to hold one for you i will, and then ship it out the next day, we have 8 in stock right now. I'm guessing 2-3 will go tomorrow during work

 

[De__eB]

I mean, when it comes down to it, it's not like these are unknown patents that are suddenly coming to light.

This is an issue any company interested in selling nitrates has known about for YEARS.

--

I'll try to do this without naming names.

TL has nitrate patents.

TL warns companies A,B,C,...,Y,Z for their illegal use of his ingredient, sues some of them, prepares lawsuits for the rest, gets settlements from some.

Companies A, B contest the lawsuit and try to invalidate the patents via the legal system. Commendable for having the balls to show up in court, but ultimately they were wrong and the patents stand.

Companies C, D, ... all decide to ignore the issue and keep on using nitrates without a license. These companies were counting on the aforementioned to win their lawsuit and invalidate the patents.

A significant number of companies wanted someone else to fight and fund their legal battle for them, so that they could keep selling TLs patented ingredient without repercussion.

--

It's really hard for me to feel bad for companies that are facing legal consequences over nitrates, or patented ingredients in general, because it is utterly impossible to not have known it was going to be an issue.

Like, any company can decide what legal risks they want to take, but they aren't the victim of anything when their legal risks bite back.

 

[schizm]

Get out of here with your logic, De__eB, ain't got no time fo dat...

 

[Misfit28]

I know one thing, the lawsuits over this are getting more numerous and more personal

 

[thebigt]

off to file a patent for creatine........

 

[De__eB]

off to file a patent for creatine........

Were you the first person to sell it?

How is that comparable?

 

[thebigt]

Were you the first person to sell it?

How is that comparable?

nitrates have been used and sold long before that Richard Kranium came along!!!! look at hot dogs and sensitive toothpaste, is he going to charge a fee for those too?

 

[De__eB]

nitrates have been used and sold long before that Richard Kranium came along!!!! look at hot dogs and sensitive toothpaste, is he going to charge a fee for those too?

Have you heard of a utility patent?

Do you eat hot dogs and toothpaste to improve exercise performance?

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

 

[kisaj]

I guess I am missing how they could patent something like nitrates, but whatever. Why is potassium nitrate allowed to be sold without patent infringement?

 

[thebigt]

Have you heard of a utility patent?

Do you eat hot dogs and toothpaste to improve exercise performance?

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

no i don't know what i am talking about, i am not a patent attorney....but common sense tells me that what he is doing is wrong, it may be legal, but that doesn't make it right!!!

 

[thebigt]

I guess I am missing how they could patent something like nitrates, but whatever. Why is potassium nitrate allowed to be sold without patent infringement?

exactly...potassium nitrate is the active in sensitive toothpaste!!!!

 

[De__eB]

I guess I am missing how they could patent something like nitrates, but whatever. Why is potassium nitrate allowed to be sold without patent infringement?

Because they were the first to sell it as a supplement, and decided to patent its use in combination with amino acids for being a novel use of those ingredients.

Potassium nitrate on its own isn't being sold in combination with amino acids, and therefore isn't under their patent.

If you were to try and do something like sell a combo stack of a potassium nitrate product, and a product with amino acids in it, you would be in violation of their patents.

 

[kisaj]

Ok, so then anyone can sell nitrate supplements by themselves (and vit c) and that is fine. (?)

 

[De__eB]

no i don't know what i am talking about, i am not a patent attorney....but common sense tells me that what he is doing is wrong, it may be legal, but that doesn't make it right!!!

They were the first to use nitrates in supplements.

Competitors were still using AAKG and other **** that doesn't work

Lots of competitors mocked their use of nitrates as dangerous.

But then everyone realized they worked, and decided they wanted to sell them too.

Why shouldn't TL be the ones to benefit from their novel use of a compound?

Why should people who were 100% aware of the patents he has, and decided to ignore them, be allowed to do so?

--

There's also supply chain reasons why you'd want a single source/licensing model for ingredient supply.

Guess how many people selling <x> nitrate are actually selling you bonded amino acid nitrates?

(The answer is not many)

--

 

[De__eB]

Ok, so then anyone can sell nitrate supplements by themselves (and vit c) and that is fine. (?)

Vit C has nothing to do with it

And I mean, as long as you did not in any context ever advertise it as going with an amino acid, either directly in your labels,marketing, or indirectly via your forum sales reps, etc... sure

Or if you want to sell an effective ingredient, you just pay the guy to license it...

How is this any different than literally every single other patented ingredient out there that people buy from the provider?

 

[kisaj]

So we've come full circle. I don't have any idea how this veered off on added aminos, but I wasn't talking about that in the OP and compounds have nothing to do with my question.

..and I am not here to argue with you or disagree with the patent, I simply wanted to know about single nitrate products and somehow TL was pulled into it.

 

[thebigt]

Vit C has nothing to do with it

And I mean, as long as you did not in any context ever advertise it as going with an amino acid, either directly in your labels,marketing, or indirectly via your forum sales reps, etc... sure

Or if you want to sell an effective ingredient, you just pay the guy to license it...

How is this any different than literally every single other patented ingredient out there that people buy from the provider?

it is different because as a layman i think of a patent being used to guard a new invention that has never been used before...

 

[De__eB]

So we've come full circle. I don't have any idea how this veered off on added aminos, but I wasn't talking about that in the OP and compounds have nothing to do with my question.

..and I am not here to argue with you or disagree with the patent, I simply wanted to know about single nitrate products and somehow TL was pulled into it.

I mean, with nutriguard selling potassium nitrate dirt cheap, I don't think many people wan't to compete with that price, so they would want to be putting the nitrates in combination with something else useful, which is where TL comes in

 

[Misfit28]

it is different because as a layman i think of a patent being used to guard a new invention that has never been used before...

I think it is the use of the ingredient in a sports supplement that is the issue. I may be wrong, though.

 

[mr.cooper69]

it is different because as a layman i think of a patent being used to guard a new invention that has never been used before...

You're missing the point. Before TL introduced nitrates, there was no solution for increasing NO in people effectively for performances of pumps and exercise enhancement. They changed the game, and they deserve credit for it.

They are patenting nitrates for performance enhancement, not toothpaste use. Utility is still intellectual property.