l-leucine timing and dosing

EMPIREMIND

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I want to discuss the most optimal times to dose Leucine. I always come across conflicting opinions and im curious to hear some more.

I personally would say post workout is an obvious. I also know leucine can spike insulin, which is def an useful tool for people on keto or low carb diets if used correctly.

What have you guys found?
 
heavylifter33

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Umm, even on low/no carb you don't have to have supplement leucine as protein is insulinogenic.

I always recommend leucine pre training. I'm not really sold on leucine in between meals.
 
EMPIREMIND

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Umm, even on low/no carb you don't have to have supplement leucine as protein is insulinogenic.

I always recommend leucine pre training. I'm not really sold on leucine in between meals.
what kind of dose?

The whole between meals is because Protein synthesis is supposed to be effective for two hours after you take in protein, so ideally you would supplement leucine to reignite protein synthesis... for me i eat every two hours so makes no difference.
 
AntM1564

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what kind of dose?

The whole between meals is because Protein synthesis is supposed to be effective for two hours after you take in protein, so ideally you would supplement leucine to reignite protein synthesis... for me i eat every two hours so makes no difference.
Leucine between meals is only "needed" if the meals are 4-6 hours apart. I do not have the link, but I know The Solution does. Hopefully he will see this and post it for you.
 
EMPIREMIND

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Yea that makes sense. I heard jerry brainum bodybuilding guru talk about taking it around hour 3. Like i said i eat every two so doesnt apply to me. I bought some tabs with the intention of taking around my workouts...
 
The Solution

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Leucine between meals is only "needed" if the meals are 4-6 hours apart. I do not have the link, but I know The Solution does. Hopefully he will see this and post it for you.
Google mayne norton muscle protein synthesis PDF or muscle protein synthesis

There is also a podcast with Dr Wilson about it as well
 
kbayne

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what kind of dose? The whole between meals is because Protein synthesis is supposed to be effective for two hours after you take in protein, so ideally you would supplement leucine to reignite protein synthesis... for me i eat every two hours so makes no difference.
Negative.

MPS tends to return to baseline around the 3-4 hour mark.
 
goodvibes

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During training for me. But ever since that huge NP sale I've just been taking it almost all the time. I'll know within a month if it makes any difference.

Upon waking, preworkout, postworkout, before bedtime
 
EMPIREMIND

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Google mayne norton muscle protein synthesis PDF or muscle protein synthesis

There is also a podcast with Dr Wilson about it as well
Okay. Perfect. Im going to find it and link it in here
 
EMPIREMIND

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In an article by Dr Layne Norton:

"Recently researchers conducted an experiment where subject resistance trained for forty five minutes and then supplemented with carbohydrate alone, carbohydrate plus protein (approximately 30g) or carbohydrate plus protein and leucine.
They found that the carbohydrate/protein/leucine supplement reduced protein breakdown and increased skeletal muscle protein synthesis to a greater degree than the carbohydrate/protein supplement and to a much greater degree than the carbohydrate only supplement.10
A possible explanation for these results could be due to the rapid spike in plasma leucine that a free form leucine supplement could achieve. Whole proteins take long periods of time to empty from the stomach into the small intestine and finally into circulation. Thus, plasma levels increase slowly and plateau.
Even with a fast digesting protein such as whey, it can take hours for the leucine in whey to be liberated from the protein & enter circulation; therefore leucine concentrations in the plasma never spike to high levels.
An isolated leucine supplement however, would be quickly absorbed into circulation, thus spiking plasma leucine levels & drastically increasing intracellular leucine concentrations and activating the aforementioned anabolic pathways.
CONCLUSION
In conclusion, it is clear that leucine increases protein synthesis by increasing the activity of mTOR & the phosphorylation of eIF4G.
Leucine has a far greater stimulatory effect on protein synthesis than any other amino acid and it has been shown that protein synthesis increases similarly in response to a relatively small dose of leucine compared to a whole food meal.
It has also been demonstrated that adding leucine to a protein rich meal further increases the rate of skeletal muscle protein synthesis.
Whether or not it is of benefit for athletes and bodybuilders to supplement with additional leucine on top of a high protein diet to further increase muscle mass in the long term has yet to be determined however"
 
EMPIREMIND

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These are slides from a presentation done by Dr Layne Norton. It mentions the two hour mark i referenced.
optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass-1.jpg

optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass-6.jpg

optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass-7.jpg

optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass-1.jpg
 
jgntyce

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at the very least, I'll be taking 5g of leucine with my post workout protein shake. thanks for the knowledge!
 
JeremyNG25

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To be completely realistic it probably won't matter when you take it nor will it have an amazing effect on muscle growth. I take it regardless just because it MAY benefit me in some way. As for all the Layne Norton quotes..lol...dude is one of the biggest frauds/liars in the fitness industry I can't believe he's being quoted on AM. All of that fancy Schmancy scientific talk about leucine is absolutely nothing more than an advertising tactic used to convince ppl that reaching a leucine threshold can get you big and ripped naturally. Considering LAYNE norton career depends on idiots thinking he's natural I don't see how people aren't seeing the transparency he shows. I've taken leucine and I haven't taken leucine. As far as I'm concerned it did absolutely nothing for strength and muscle growth. Nothing noticeable at least
 
The Solution

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at the very least, I'll be taking 5g of leucine with my post workout protein shake. thanks for the knowledge!
Why? You are getting adequate leucine if you are taking in an adequate amount of whey in the first place.
If you are drinking an intra-workout beverage as well taking in more leucine or a post-workout beverage in the post-workout period would have little to no significance.

When are Carbs and Protein VERY Important Post-workout?

Carbs:
- During leg Training + HIIT Cardio or doing a 2-3 hour intense workout session
Protein:
-Resistance Training in a fasted state (no meal consumed at least 3-4 hours prior)

When are Carbs and Protein of lesser importance Post-workout?

Carbs:
- 1-2 hour training session after a pre-workout meal (Small or mixed 2-3 hours prior to session)
Protein:
- Training after a meal composed of 20-40g Protein at least 1-2 hours prior to a workout in a fed state.

Overall Cliffs:

- Nutrient Timing can be beneficial but window of opportunity is not as big as believed
- Provided protein rich meal 3-4 hours prior to training, there is no stress about immediate post-workout protein supplement or meal
- Consume .4-.5g/kg of LBM in a pre/post workout exercise window spaced 4-6 hours depending on meal size.
- Post workout carb intake does not meaningful increase aabolicsm unless doing a 2 a day workout session involving same muscle groups. Glycogen is not a limting factor if you can consume enough Carbohydrates daily in the 24 hour period.
 
bolt10

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Umm, even on low/no carb you don't have to have supplement leucine as protein is insulinogenic.

I always recommend leucine pre training. I'm not really sold on leucine in between meals.
This (especially bolded for me).

I'll also add if you aren't getting adequate Leucine in a meal then I feel adding additional Leucine may be beneficial (don't take that as you need to add it to every meal and that more is better, just that if you aren't hitting the threshold for dosing adding 1-2g to get you there may help).
 
The Solution

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This (especially bolded for me).

I'll also add if you aren't getting adequate Leucine in a meal then I feel adding additional Leucine may be beneficial (don't take that as you need to add it to every meal and that more is better, just that if you aren't hitting the threshold for dosing adding 1-2g to get you there may help).
Layne suggested if a meal is lacking leucine say using cheese or other non protein sources like nuts or oatmeal in a pre workout or any meal where leucine is low you could supplement with additional
BCAA or leucine to meet at least 3-4g as an adequate amount at a meal to stimulate MPS

Remember that from his presentation last year @ the Arnold
 
Feiwong

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I think leucine at meals is necessary in cutting when not assuming carb during a meal. An adeguate quantity of carb in a meal rich of protein is enough to trigger MPS. Don't also see it necessary around wo when MPS is practically inhibited. Some bcaa pre/intra with 3-4g of leucine is enough. Immediatly post just some fast carb, wait 15-20 min (time to rise insulin to max) and drink a shaker of whey. If in cutting and not assuming carb post, just hydrolized protein is the way to go
 
kbayne

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I think leucine at meals is necessary in cutting when not assuming carb during a meal. An adeguate quantity of carb in a meal rich of protein is enough to trigger MPS. Don't also see it necessary around wo when MPS is practically inhibited. Some bcaa pre/intra with 3-4g of leucine is enough. Immediatly post just some fast carb, wait 15-20 min (time to rise insulin to max) and drink a shaker of whey. If in cutting and not assuming carb post, just hydrolized protein is the way to go
Fail.
 
Matthew1237

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Does Leucine make that much of a difference if you're eating plenty of protein?
 
The Solution

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Does Leucine make that much of a difference if you're eating plenty of protein?
No. if your meeting adequate protein from whole foods, the need for more leucine is not necessary. if your reaching adequate amounts of whole food or using whey protein to meet protein minimums you are fine.


http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf
http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/optimal-protein-intake-and-meal-frequency-to-support-maximal-protein-synthesis-and-muscle-mass
 
hvactech

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To be completely realistic it probably won't matter when you take it nor will it have an amazing effect on muscle growth. I take it regardless just because it MAY benefit me in some way. As for all the Layne Norton quotes..lol...dude is one of the biggest frauds/liars in the fitness industry I can't believe he's being quoted on AM. All of that fancy Schmancy scientific talk about leucine is absolutely nothing more than an advertising tactic used to convince ppl that reaching a leucine threshold can get you big and ripped naturally. Considering LAYNE norton career depends on idiots thinking he's natural I don't see how people aren't seeing the transparency he shows. I've taken leucine and I haven't taken leucine. As far as I'm concerned it did absolutely nothing for strength and muscle growth. Nothing noticeable at least
I was beginning to think I was the only one who thinks this
 

DarthGainer

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To be completely realistic it probably won't matter when you take it nor will it have an amazing effect on muscle growth. I take it regardless just because it MAY benefit me in some way. As for all the Layne Norton quotes..lol...dude is one of the biggest frauds/liars in the fitness industry I can't believe he's being quoted on AM. All of that fancy Schmancy scientific talk about leucine is absolutely nothing more than an advertising tactic used to convince ppl that reaching a leucine threshold can get you big and ripped naturally. Considering LAYNE norton career depends on idiots thinking he's natural I don't see how people aren't seeing the transparency he shows. I've taken leucine and I haven't taken leucine. As far as I'm concerned it did absolutely nothing for strength and muscle growth. Nothing noticeable at least
I'm not a big fan off Layne and he has a punchable face (not his fault lol), I agree on everything but not being non natty. The guy seems to train hard and seems great at conditioning but I don't think he's on gear.
 
NoAddedHmones

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I'm not a big fan off Layne and he has a punchable face (not his fault lol), I agree on everything but not being non natty. The guy seems to train hard and seems great at conditioning but I don't think he's on gear.
I dunno fellas Layne's studies, articles and videos played a big role in getting me to where i am today.

Dunno how you guys are calling him out as a fraud? Anything he says is backed by science and if he is saying some which isnt't such as anecdote of his experiences or of his clients then he makes that explicitly clear.
 
Matthew1237

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Damn I poked the bees nest! Guys guys - don't fight!! I'll take the leucine I'm sorry!
 

DarthGainer

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Fraud was maybe the wrong word to use from NG25 IMO.
I will say Layne reminds me of a company owner on this board who is a bit over the top.
 

DarthGainer

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Not fighting just views on things, Nothing heated but maybe I'm reading it wrong lol.
 
The Solution

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I'm not a big fan off Layne and he has a punchable face (not his fault lol), I agree on everything but not being non natty. The guy seems to train hard and seems great at conditioning but I don't think he's on gear.
He must be doing something right to win his class @ The arnold and be training for worlds in Finland in June.
pretty damn impressive.
 
The_Old_Guy

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With the price of bulk Leucine being so cheap, I think it's very worthwhile to down ~5g 30-60 minutes pre-protein meal. The McMasters study showed that W6+High LEU (220%) was almost the same as the W25 group (267%). It also showed that W6+High LEU was *better* than W6+BCAA. While W25 *with adequate Leucine per serving* stimulated MPS the most, why not stack the deck and add Leucine prior to ingestion, where there is ZERO competition from any BCAA's? I mean, people spend ass loads of dollars on Colostrum and other BS... yet bulk Leucine actually has scientific proof that it works.

Leucine supplementation of a low-protein mixed macronutrient beverage enhances myofibrillar protein synthesis in young men: a double-blind, randomized trial
 

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