Alan Aragon Discuss's BCAA's

[The Solution]

Good Information on BCAA Supplements:

A few Quotes from Alan Aragon on another board:

Plenty of people have bought into the marketing of BCAA. Not many people realize that if you're consuming enough total dietary protein, it already contains an abundance of BCAA. High-quality protein sources in your diet are comprised of 18-26% BCAA. Adding supplemental BCAA to that is quite literally a waste. As for the claim that supplemental BCAA is necessary to prevent muscle loss from fasted training, that's not supported by the scientific literature.

Given a scenario with equated macronutrition (including protein/aminos, collectively), fasted vs fed cardio is highly unlikely to make any difference in the sparing of muscle protein by the end of the day (or the end of the diet). My colleagues and I recently did a fasted vs fed training study & observed at null results: Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted a... - PubMed - NCBI

Also, take note that fatty acid oxidation is greater during training in the fasted state, but greater pot-training in the fed state, so it comes out even by the end of the day. To quote a recent review by my team:

“Many bodybuilders perform cardio in the fasted state in an attempt to increase fat oxidation and lose additional body fat; however, the scientific literature does not support additional benefits of fasted cardio. In fact, increased nitrogen loss, equivalent to nearly 14 gm of amino acids per hour has been observed during 60 minutes of fasted cardio [123]. However, it should be noted that the authors could not identify the source of nitrogen nor is it known if the increase in amino acid oxidation has an effect on muscle tissue if amino acods are replenished after exercise. [...] However, acute changes in fat oxidation during exercise are not as important as the total fat oxidation over the course of the day and, as previously discussed, if more carbohydrates are oxidized during exercise, more fat is oxidized throughout the course of the day [121, 129]. [...] In support of this contention, a recent study by Paoli et al. [130] demonstrated that respiratory exchange ratio was significantly lower at 12 and 24 hours after fed versus fasted cardio, indicating that consuming a meal prior to exercise results in a prolonged shift toward lipid use following the training bout.” Recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: resis... - PubMed - NCBI

Also consider the following research where fasted resistance training during Ramadan (complete with suboptimal hydration, lol) failed to cause The Catabolizmz: "Hypertrophic training in a fasted or in a fed state during Ramadan does not affect body mass and body composition of bodybuilders." Effect of fed- versus fasted state resistance training during Ramad... - PubMed - NCBI

One more - no difference in body comp changes between fed vs fasted HIIT cardio: "Short-term low-volume HIT is a time-efficient strategy to improve body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight/obese women, but fed- versus fasted-state training does not alter this response." Interval training in the fed or fasted state improves body composit... - PubMed - NCBI

Not necessarily - especially if we're talking about equated daily macros. The body is smarter than we give it credit for. If you deprive it of nutrients during training, it can ramp up an 'anabolic rebound' effect in the post-training period when nutrients are provided. To quote Deldicque et al: "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session." Increased p70s6k phosphorylation during intake of a protein-carbohy... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Big Papi]

man walks on moon

 

[travwj]

Good article Bob, and a few things to read up on.I train fasted for weights and cardio. This is due to time constraints, but will read these studies for more info.

 

[braskibra]

Good Information on BCAA Supplements:

A few Quotes from Alan Aragon on another board:

Plenty of people have bought into the marketing of BCAA. Not many people realize that if you're consuming enough total dietary protein, it already contains an abundance of BCAA. High-quality protein sources in your diet are comprised of 18-26% BCAA. Adding supplemental BCAA to that is quite literally a waste. As for the claim that supplemental BCAA is necessary to prevent muscle loss from fasted training, that's not supported by the scientific literature.

Given a scenario with equated macronutrition (including protein/aminos, collectively), fasted vs fed cardio is highly unlikely to make any difference in the sparing of muscle protein by the end of the day (or the end of the diet). My colleagues and I recently did a fasted vs fed training study & observed at null results: Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted a... - PubMed - NCBI

Also, take note that fatty acid oxidation is greater during training in the fasted state, but greater pot-training in the fed state, so it comes out even by the end of the day. To quote a recent review by my team:

“Many bodybuilders perform cardio in the fasted state in an attempt to increase fat oxidation and lose additional body fat; however, the scientific literature does not support additional benefits of fasted cardio. In fact, increased nitrogen loss, equivalent to nearly 14 gm of amino acids per hour has been observed during 60 minutes of fasted cardio [123]. However, it should be noted that the authors could not identify the source of nitrogen nor is it known if the increase in amino acid oxidation has an effect on muscle tissue if amino acods are replenished after exercise. [...] However, acute changes in fat oxidation during exercise are not as important as the total fat oxidation over the course of the day and, as previously discussed, if more carbohydrates are oxidized during exercise, more fat is oxidized throughout the course of the day [121, 129]. [...] In support of this contention, a recent study by Paoli et al. [130] demonstrated that respiratory exchange ratio was significantly lower at 12 and 24 hours after fed versus fasted cardio, indicating that consuming a meal prior to exercise results in a prolonged shift toward lipid use following the training bout.” Recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: resis... - PubMed - NCBI

Also consider the following research where fasted resistance training during Ramadan (complete with suboptimal hydration, lol) failed to cause The Catabolizmz: "Hypertrophic training in a fasted or in a fed state during Ramadan does not affect body mass and body composition of bodybuilders." Effect of fed- versus fasted state resistance training during Ramad... - PubMed - NCBI

One more - no difference in body comp changes between fed vs fasted HIIT cardio: "Short-term low-volume HIT is a time-efficient strategy to improve body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight/obese women, but fed- versus fasted-state training does not alter this response." Interval training in the fed or fasted state improves body composit... - PubMed - NCBI

Not necessarily - especially if we're talking about equated daily macros. The body is smarter than we give it credit for. If you deprive it of nutrients during training, it can ramp up an 'anabolic rebound' effect in the post-training period when nutrients are provided. To quote Deldicque et al: "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session." Increased p70s6k phosphorylation during intake of a protein-carbohy... - PubMed - NCBI

misleading title, post more on fasted vs fed cardio

Not exactly a stellar setup but at least its a start:

20 healthy young female. (population does not represent the norm).. ... ... ... ..
4 weeks in duration (extremely short)..... ..... .... ...
less than expected fat loss results (poor results)
Measuring not done blinded, waist etc


Pre- vs. Post-study body composition measures

MEASURE FASTED-PRE FASTED-POST ES FED-PRE FED-POST ES
Weight (kg) 62.4 ± 7.8 60.8 ± 7.8* 0.21 62.0 ± 5.5 61.0 ± 5.7* 0.18
BMI 23.4 ± 2.9 22.8 ± 3.0* 0.20 23.3 ± 2.5 22.9 ± 2.5* 0.16
Body Fat% 26.3 ± 7.9 25.0 ± 7.7 0.17 24.8 ± 8.4 24.1 ± 8.5 0.08
Waist (cm) 77.5 ± 6.4 75.9 ± 6.9 0.24 77.7 ± 9.4 75.7 ± 8.6 0.22
Fat Mass (kg) 16.5 ± 5.5 15.4 ± 5.5* 0.20 15.7 ± 6.3 15.0 ± 6.1* 0.11
Fat Free Mass (kg) 45.9 ± 6.7 45.4 ± 6.1 0.08 46.3 ± 3.8 46.1 ± 4.3 0.05


trend for greater fatloss in fasted state but there is no way in hell you are achieving any level of significance in only 4 weeks with 20 subjects

1.7% loss of bodyfat in fasted, .7% loss in fed, but the small overall numbers (# subjects and fat loss) result in a lack of significance and cannot rule out chance

btw i personally dont feel there is any difference and the majority of the literature agrees with alan

i mean 4 week study not blinded, only 3 times a week [1] hour cardio session,all women, like what did you expect the results to be

set up to fail from the beginning

 

[braskibra]

Alan's stance on BCAA's is nothing more than his opinion, does he have some evidence to back it up? Certainly. However, until you get multi-centered RCTs involved there is simply not enough firm evidence to make concrete statements. There is less than a handful (that I've counted) of RCT's on BCAA's.

 

[Grayson]

Unless glycogen depleted, in a heavy deficit and doing HIIT-type training you won't be burning muscle.

Morning LISS cardio is best anyway for fat loss. Make sure 8 hours of fasting is sandwiched in between your session and dinner/food and you're gtg.

 

[braskibra]

Funny how AA speaks so concretely on the forums about bcaas but his review with helms has a very different tone, guess thats what happens when you have to put aside personal bias and evaluate the evidence as a whole.


Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: nutrition and supplementation
Eric R Helms1*, Alan A Aragon2 and Peter J Fitschen3

Branched chain amino acids
Branched chain amino acids (BCAA’s) make up 14-18% of amino acids in skeletal muscle proteins and are quite possibly the most widely used supplements among natural bodybuilders [165]. Of the BCAA’s, leucine is of particular interest because it has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis to an equal extent as a mixture of all amino acids [166]. However, ingestion of leucine alone can lead to depletion of plasma valine and isoleucine; therefore, all three amino acids need to be consumed to prevent plasma depletion of any one of the BCAA’s [167]. Recently, the safe upper limit of leucine was set at 550 mg/kg bodyweight/day in adult men; however, future studies are needed to determine the safe upper limit for both other populations and a mixture of all 3 BCAA’s [168].

Numerous acute studies in animals and humans have shown that consumption of either essential amino acids, BCAA’s, or leucine either at rest or following exercise increases skeletal muscle protein synthesis, decreases muscle protein degradation, or both [27,169-172]; however, there are few long-term studies of BCAA supplementation in resistance-trained athletes. Stoppani et al. [173] supplemented trained subjects with either 14 g BCAAs, whey protein, or a carbohydrate placebo for eight weeks during a periodized strength training routine. After training the BCAA group had a 4 kg increase in lean mass, 2% decrease in body fat percentage, and 6 kg increase in bench press 10 repetition maximum. All changes were significant compared to the other groups. However, it should be noted that this data is only available as an abstract and has yet to undergo the rigors of peer-review.

The use of BCAA’s between meals may also be beneficial to keep protein synthesis elevated. Recent data from animal models suggest that consumption of BCAA’s between meals can overcome the refractory response in protein synthesis that occurs when plasma amino acids are elevated, yet protein synthesis is reduced [174]. However, long-term human studies examining the effects of a diet in which BCAA’s are consumed between meals on lean mass and strength have not been done to date. It should also be noted that BCAA metabolism in humans and rodents differ and the results from rodent studies with BCAA’s may not translate in human models [175]. Therefore, long-term studies are needed in humans to determine the effectiveness of this practice.

Based on the current evidence, it is clear BCAA’s stimulate protein synthesis acutely and one study [173] has indicated that BCAA’s may be able to increase lean mass and strength when added to a strength training routine; however, additional long-term studies are needed to determine the effects of BCAA’s on lean mass and strength in trained athletes. In addition, studies are needed on the effectiveness of BCAA supplementation in individuals following a vegetarian diet in which consumption of high-quality proteins are low as this may be population that may benefit from BCAA consumption. Furthermore, the effects of BCAA ingestion between meals needs to be further investigated in a long-term human study.

 

[The Solution]

Unless glycogen depleted, in a heavy deficit and doing HIIT-type training you won't be burning muscle.

Morning LISS cardio is best anyway for fat loss. Make sure 8 hours of fasting is sandwiched in between your session and dinner/food and you're gtg.

what makes you say morning LISS is superior for fatloss?
What makes you think HIIT is not beneficial? Just curious. Plenty of research and personal experience out there in the bodybuilding world to show HIIT has a ton of advantages in fat burning and also metabolic effects.

 

[HIT4ME]

what makes you say morning LISS is superior for fatloss?
What makes you think HIIT is not beneficial? Just curious. Plenty of research and personal experience out there in the bodybuilding world to show HIIT has a ton of advantages in fat burning and also metabolic effects.

This is great stuff Bob. Always good to know both sides of the argument to make your decision, thanks for posting this.

I am not trying to answer for The Engineer, but I don't think he was saying HIIT wasn't beneficial. I think he's just saying that weight lifting, high intensity exercise (such HIIT) generally gets fueled by glycogen stores - so if you're doing this training in a glycogen-depleted state then BCAAs become more of an issue and a supplement may be more beneficial. Otherwise, he doesn't believe BCAAs are that big an issue and AA may be correct - you won't be burning muscle while training.

As far as LISS - it has its place, but I don't know why he would say it is superior. He will have to expound on that.

I also could have misread him, I'm just explaining how I interpreted what he said.

 

[Swolbraham]

Alan's stance on BCAA's is nothing more than his opinion, does he have some evidence to back it up? Certainly. However, until you get multi-centered RCTs involved there is simply not enough firm evidence to make concrete statements. There is less than a handful (that I've counted) of RCT's on BCAA's.

i agree with this big... look at the benfits BCAA's or EAA's intra workout have on recovery. I think Meadow's intra cocktail is right on point imo, fo rmaking things OPTIMAL. Not necessary, but OPTIMAL

Unless glycogen depleted, in a heavy deficit and doing HIIT-type training you won't be burning muscle.

Morning LISS cardio is best anyway for fat loss. Make sure 8 hours of fasting is sandwiched in between your session and dinner/food and you're gtg.

my experience would have to agree, and it doesn't hamper my weight training for my legs

 

[The Solution]

i agree with this big... look at the benfits BCAA's or EAA's intra workout have on recovery. I think Meadow's intra cocktail is right on point imo, fo rmaking things OPTIMAL. Not necessary, but OPTIMAL

You mean EAA's for intra-workout



WHY EAA's more important than BCAA intra-workout:
but EAAs may impart some endurance-like effects that BCAAs simply cannot.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/94/3/809.long

This is the only study done in trained humans consuming EAAs during the workout. These are legit, military-trained personnel doing both resistance and endurance work.

The findings?

"In summary, consumption of a 10-g dose of EAA enriched with leucine during moderate endurance-type exercise stimulated increased MPS when compared with an isonitrogenous EAA supplement with an amino acid profile consistent with high-quality proteins. These data indicate that increasing leucine availability during steady state exercise promotes skeletal muscle protein anabolism and spares endogenous protein."


Cliffs:

These EAAs increased postworkout MPS by 33% when consumed during exercise
The drink with the highest leucine content spared muscle to the greatest degree



most people meet daily protein needs in the 24 hour period the need for additional aminos especially those who train in a fed state may not merit them much.

same with carbs intra-workout for most who train in a fed state may not be of most importance.

When are Carbs and Protein VERY Important Post-workout?

Carbs:
- During leg Training + HIIT Cardio or doing a 2-3 hour intense workout session
Protein:

-Resistance Training in a fasted state (no meal consumed at least 3-4 hours prior)

When are Carbs and Protein of lesser importance Post-workout?

Carbs:
- 1-2 hour training session after a pre-workout meal (Small or mixed 2-3 hours prior to session)
Protein:
- Training after a meal composed of 20-40g Protein at least 1-2 hours prior to a workout in a fed state.

^^^ Even those who train fed wont merit much on the carbs post-workout due to the food overlap and the body having plenty of glucose in the system from previous feedings/meals. For those looking to be endurnace athletes it may give them an edge. for most gym goers who train 60-90 minutes and are properly fed for performance around their workouts it will not merit them as much.

"- Post workout carb intake does not meaningful increase aabolicsm unless doing a 2 a day workout session involving same muscle groups. Glycogen is not a limting factor if you can consume enough Carbohydrates daily in the 24 hour period."

 

[Swolbraham]

Lol do you have these on a copy and paste word doc or something? Lol

 

[The Solution]

Lol do you have these on a copy and paste word doc or something? Lol

The search button takes about 3 seconds to show you that information.

But again for most of us who train on here the most importance of these things are minimal. Meeting total calories and protein/carbs in the 24 hour period for most of us fed trainees who only train say 60-90 minutes. Plenty of glucose, food overlap, and energy if we set up our diets and focus less on supplements. the amount of benefit they may aid us may be minimal.

 

[The Solution]

As far as LISS - it has its place, but I don't know why he would say it is superior. He will have to expound on that.

I also could have misread him, I'm just explaining how I interpreted what he said.

They both have their place. LISS over long periods of time has been shown to slow metabolism and blunt hypertrophy as well coming from Dr Wilson in one of his previous podcasts as well on cardio. HIIT does have some great effects for fat burning and also the metabolic effects it can provide.

http://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57-36/muscle-college/7694-muscle-college-3-12-13.html

 

[kissdadookie]

Good Information on BCAA Supplements:

A few Quotes from Alan Aragon on another board:

Plenty of people have bought into the marketing of BCAA. Not many people realize that if you're consuming enough total dietary protein, it already contains an abundance of BCAA. High-quality protein sources in your diet are comprised of 18-26% BCAA. Adding supplemental BCAA to that is quite literally a waste. As for the claim that supplemental BCAA is necessary to prevent muscle loss from fasted training, that's not supported by the scientific literature.

Given a scenario with equated macronutrition (including protein/aminos, collectively), fasted vs fed cardio is highly unlikely to make any difference in the sparing of muscle protein by the end of the day (or the end of the diet). My colleagues and I recently did a fasted vs fed training study & observed at null results: Body composition changes associated with fasted versus non-fasted a... - PubMed - NCBI

Also, take note that fatty acid oxidation is greater during training in the fasted state, but greater pot-training in the fed state, so it comes out even by the end of the day. To quote a recent review by my team:

“Many bodybuilders perform cardio in the fasted state in an attempt to increase fat oxidation and lose additional body fat; however, the scientific literature does not support additional benefits of fasted cardio. In fact, increased nitrogen loss, equivalent to nearly 14 gm of amino acids per hour has been observed during 60 minutes of fasted cardio [123]. However, it should be noted that the authors could not identify the source of nitrogen nor is it known if the increase in amino acid oxidation has an effect on muscle tissue if amino acods are replenished after exercise. [...] However, acute changes in fat oxidation during exercise are not as important as the total fat oxidation over the course of the day and, as previously discussed, if more carbohydrates are oxidized during exercise, more fat is oxidized throughout the course of the day [121, 129]. [...] In support of this contention, a recent study by Paoli et al. [130] demonstrated that respiratory exchange ratio was significantly lower at 12 and 24 hours after fed versus fasted cardio, indicating that consuming a meal prior to exercise results in a prolonged shift toward lipid use following the training bout.” Recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: resis... - PubMed - NCBI

Also consider the following research where fasted resistance training during Ramadan (complete with suboptimal hydration, lol) failed to cause The Catabolizmz: "Hypertrophic training in a fasted or in a fed state during Ramadan does not affect body mass and body composition of bodybuilders." Effect of fed- versus fasted state resistance training during Ramad... - PubMed - NCBI

One more - no difference in body comp changes between fed vs fasted HIIT cardio: "Short-term low-volume HIT is a time-efficient strategy to improve body composition and muscle oxidative capacity in overweight/obese women, but fed- versus fasted-state training does not alter this response." Interval training in the fed or fasted state improves body composit... - PubMed - NCBI

Not necessarily - especially if we're talking about equated daily macros. The body is smarter than we give it credit for. If you deprive it of nutrients during training, it can ramp up an 'anabolic rebound' effect in the post-training period when nutrients are provided. To quote Deldicque et al: "Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session." Increased p70s6k phosphorylation during intake of a protein-carbohy... - PubMed - NCBI

Love it. I've ditched the no carbs just aminos approach for my conditioning days awhile back. Mainly because I've been doing HIIT, having the carbs during the workout, protein before the workout, I'm just able to hit the workout harder.

 

[The Solution]

Love it. I've ditched the no carbs just aminos approach for my conditioning days awhile back. Mainly because I've been doing HIIT, having the carbs during the workout, protein before the workout, I'm just able to hit the workout harder.

Must be OD'ing on that Intra-MD Bro.

 

[Jiigzz]

Unless glycogen depleted, in a heavy deficit and doing HIIT-type training you won't be burning muscle.

Morning LISS cardio is best anyway for fat loss. Make sure 8 hours of fasting is sandwiched in between your session and dinner/food and you're gtg.

The benefits of LISS stop at the cessation od exercise and the while the ratio of fat:glycogen is elevated during LISS, HIIT increases APOC and over the course of the day is far superior (not to mention the metabolic adaptations).

On topic; AA's bcaa post is focused on its effects on muscle tissue sparing/ growth in the fed/ fasted state. Bare in mind that people use BCAAs for purposes other than these.

 

[kissdadookie]

Must be OD'ing on that Intra-MD Bro.

Nah, Karbolyn on conditioning days

 

[mr.cooper69]

The benefits of LISS stop at the cessation od exercise and the while the ratio of fat:glycogen is elevated during LISS, HIIT increases APOC and over the course of the day is far superior (not to mention the metabolic adaptations).

On topic; AA's bcaa post is focused on its effects on muscle tissue sparing/ growth in the fed/ fasted state. Bare in mind that people use BCAAs for purposes other than these.

So data shows EPOC is weak, only about 50 calories. Rather, HIIT is effective for fat loss for similar reasons that weight training (which uses the same metabolic machinery) is beneficial for fat loss. It depletes glycogen (allowing for nutrient partitioning), improves muscular efficiency and size, and promotes mitochondrial biogenesis

 

[Nyrin]

On the topic of fasted cardio, given that we're on a supplements forum, can we at least look at alpha adrenergic antagonists for a second before we dismiss the usefulness of fasted activity for fat loss? I'm pretty sure the evidence on yohimbine is pretty damn compelling, and it's not going to do **** if you aren't fasted.

 

[mr.cooper69]

On the topic of fasted cardio, given that we're on a supplements forum, can we at least look at alpha adrenergic antagonists for a second before we dismiss the usefulness of fasted activity for fat loss? I'm pretty sure the evidence on yohimbine is pretty damn compelling, and it's not going to do **** if you aren't fasted.

Untrue. It will still work, as insulin bottoms out during activities like running. However, if one is fasted, the fat loss response would indeed be even greater

 

[Jiigzz]

So data shows EPOC is weak, only about 50 calories. Rather, HIIT is effective for fat loss for similar reasons that weight training (which uses the same metabolic machinery) is beneficial for fat loss. It depletes glycogen (allowing for nutrient partitioning), improves muscular efficiency and size, and promotes mitochondrial biogenesis

Good points; id not really looked into EPOC data. That would depend in the work:rest ratio being used and the % of vo2 being worked at but I get what you mean

 

[BigGame84]

Intra workout? I only use Ketones from now on. I feel like I get enough BCAA's with my protein powder anyways.

 

[kissdadookie]

Intra workout? I only use Ketones from now on. I feel like I get enough BCAA's with my protein powder anyways.

I think Patrick Arnold actually said for bb'ers, using the ketones is probably not as good of a choice as consuming the carbs. This was mentioned when they got into the topic of ketone salts on the PED podcast where Patrick Arnold was the guest.

 

[BigGame84]

All I can say is Ketones have been giving me more energy and endurance than any carbs I've taken pre/intra. I don't worry about preworkout carbs anymore.

 

[BigGame84]

If I had to choose a BCAA product, Aminolast and Intra-MD look like the best.

 

[kissdadookie]

If HIIT uses "the same metabolic machinery" as weight training, wouldn't doing LISS be better for fat loss?. It'd seem that doing additional high intensity work would make you have to increase your rest days....HIIT would only increase your recovery time, whereas LISS wouldn't have this detrimental effect because it doesn't use the same "metabolic machinery".

Not necessarily. Fat loss is the net fat loss one achieves day to day not just isolated to what you are burning during the activity.

Also in terms of rest days, HIIT is taxing but if you do it smart, you're essentially going to be targeting muscle groups, so be smart about how you program it in (don't go doing wingates and then legs the next day or vice versa).

 

[BigGame84]

I see Myochem has a new BCAA supp coming out with extended release Leucine.

 

[braskibra]

So data shows EPOC is weak, only about 50 calories. Rather, HIIT is effective for fat loss for similar reasons that weight training (which uses the same metabolic machinery) is beneficial for fat loss. It depletes glycogen (allowing for nutrient partitioning), improves muscular efficiency and size, and promotes mitochondrial biogenesis

bingo!

 

[braskibra]

If HIIT uses "the same metabolic machinery" as weight training, wouldn't doing LISS be better for fat loss?. It'd seem that doing additional high intensity work would make you have to increase your rest days....HIIT would only increase your recovery time, whereas LISS wouldn't have this detrimental effect because it doesn't use the same "metabolic machinery".

it can have an impact on the sympathetic system sure, but LISS cardio has been shown to be detrimental to building muscle soooooooooo

 

[Grayson]

it can have an impact on the sympathetic system sure, but LISS cardio has been shown to be detrimental to building muscle soooooooooo

In what capacity? Besides "stealing" energy from muscle repair, please list citations related to muscle degradation as a result of low impact cardio.

 

[Swolbraham]

I see Myochem has a new BCAA supp coming out with extended release Leucine.

Yes sir! We're very excited to launch this. flavor samples landed today

 

[kissdadookie]

In what capacity? Besides "stealing" energy from muscle repair, please list citations related to muscle degradation as a result of low impact cardio.

Really depends on what one means when they say LISS cardio. If it's a casual stroll, then it's probably ok.

http://www.t-nation.com/training/regular-cardio-will-make-you-fat

 

[braskibra]

In what capacity? Besides "stealing" energy from muscle repair, please list citations related to muscle degradation as a result of low impact cardio.

or you could just be ba boop into the computer and do it yourself, youz a big boy

AbstractSend to:
Sports Med. 2014 Jun;44(6):743-62. doi: 10.1007/s40279-014-0162-1.
Interference between concurrent resistance and endurance exercise: molecular bases and the role of individual training variables.
Fyfe JJ1, Bishop DJ, Stepto NK.
Author information
Abstract
Concurrent training is defined as simultaneously incorporating both resistance and endurance exercise within a periodized training regime. Despite the potential additive benefits of combining these divergent exercise modes with regards to disease prevention and athletic performance, current evidence suggests that this approach may attenuate gains in muscle mass, strength, and power compared with undertaking resistance training alone. This has been variously described as the interference effect or concurrent training effect. In recent years, understanding of the molecular mechanisms mediating training adaptation in skeletal muscle has emerged and provided potential mechanistic insight into the concurrent training effect. Although it appears that various molecular signaling responses induced in skeletal muscle by endurance exercise can inhibit pathways regulating protein synthesis and stimulate protein breakdown, human studies to date have not observed such molecular 'interference' following acute concurrent exercise that might explain compromised muscle hypertrophy following concurrent training. However, given the multitude of potential concurrent training variables and the limitations of existing evidence, the potential roles of individual training variables in acute and chronic interference are not fully elucidated. The present review explores current evidence for the molecular basis of the specificity of training adaptation and the concurrent interference phenomenon. Additionally, insights provided by molecular and performance-based concurrent training studies regarding the role of individual training variables (i.e., within-session exercise order, between-mode recovery, endurance training volume, intensity, and modality) in the concurrent interference effect are discussed, along with the limitations of our current understanding of this complex paradigm.

 

[The Solution]

it can have an impact on the sympathetic system sure, but LISS cardio has been shown to be detrimental to building muscle soooooooooo

Correct can blunt hypertrophy and slow metabolism

http://www.rxmuscle.com/2013-01-11-01-57-36/muscle-college/7694-muscle-college-3-12-13.html

 

[Grayson]

Really depends on what one means when they say LISS cardio. If it's a casual stroll, then it's probably ok.

http://www.t-nation.com/training/regular-cardio-will-make-you-fat

I could be wrong, but I believe 50-70% of one's heart rate is ideal for LISS. Anything else and we're talking about jogging.

That's not the point though. Besides looking at this from nutrient depravation scenario, how can LISS hamper muscle. If anything, It's a form of active recovery.

 

[Swolbraham]

Since we're all posting links, this duck is purple. Evidence:

http://drawception.com/pub/panels/2013/1-5/181chLdTG1-4.png

 

[braskibra]

I could be wrong, but I believe 50-70% of one's heart rate is ideal for LISS. Anything else and we're talking about jogging.

That's not the point though. Besides looking at this from nutrient depravation scenario, how can LISS hamper muscle. If anything, It's a form of active recovery.

did you just ignore the entire thread orrrrrrr?

 

[kissdadookie]

I could be wrong, but I believe 50-70% of one's heart rate is ideal for LISS. Anything else and we're talking about jogging.

That's not the point though. Besides looking at this from nutrient depravation scenario, how can LISS hamper muscle. If anything, It's a form of active recovery.

What if it takes more effort for one to get their HR up to the "effective LISS" range? Also, what the heck is jogging, someone else's jog could be the equivalent of my quick paced walk.

 

[Grayson]

did you just ignore the entire thread orrrrrrr?

I'm on mobile so it's difficult for me to retort to your previous statements. I have not forgotten about his.

Please, cite specifically how LISS hampers lean muscle acquiral?

 

[kissdadookie]

I'm on mobile so it's difficult for me to retort to your previous statements. I have not forgotten about his.

Please, cite specifically how LISS hampers lean muscle acquiral?

Read the article I linked.

It's less about accrual of LBM and more about what you want to make your body more efficient at. You have limited resources so they should be placed more towards what your goals are. You're eventually going to adapt to the cardio making it less effective so you do more cardio.

HIIT, if you do all out bouts, I dunno, can't really adapt to that because you're going through all out bouts. You're training for the same amount of short spurts time-wise, but you're fully exerting yourself in each bout.

 

[HIT4ME]

On the HIIT vs. LISS topic - in my opinion it boils down to a few things for most people.

1. LISS takes longer to burn the calories. You may not burn quite as many calories in 20 minutes with HIIT but you are only working for less than 7 minutes in many situations during that 20 minutes and the EPOCH may boost it a little. As stated, the effects of EPOCH are overblown by many, but I think they may be understated by some too. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

2. HIIT may be more beneficial from many perspectives - but it can be demanding. If you are training with weights at a high intensity, sometimes it's better to do LISS just so that you don't overtax your recovery. As stated above, programing can be difficult if you train legs and then have to do HIIT sprints the next day. LISS can fill this gap and allow for additional calorie burning that you won't have the intensity for with HIIT.

These factors are somewhat individual. I loved doing HIIT and find it much more rewarding than LISS - but as I've progressed with my weight training, it can just be too much. I've started to realize that being able to burn calories with reduced effort also has its place.

 

[Driven2lift]

For me HIIT wins for two reasons, one being it takes less time (more effort, but be a man lol)

The other being that it seems the better option fir bodybuilders after aesthetics or maintaining strength, some studies showed muscle growth off HIIT, and we have all seem the side-by-side pictures of sprinters and marathoners. (Although they used extreme examples)

Also LISS isn't something I can "get into"
It is kind of monotonous and my mind is never on the task at hand. With HIIT I am actively concentrating on the activity, counting my intervals, etc. with practise I get better at it and "get into" it

 

[Young Gotti]

if the solution posted what i think he did, it does discuss LISS being detrimental to muscle..and HIIT being far superior to bodybuilding purposes if done correctly

 

[Nyrin]

Also LISS isn't something I can "get into"
It is kind of monotonous and my mind is never on the task at hand. With HIIT I am actively concentrating on the activity, counting my intervals, etc. with practise I get better at it and "get into" it

Yeah, I can definitely see that. I actually read novels (with large font on a tablet) and listen to music during my (L/M)ISS and it's become a pretty well-ingrained stress relief habit for me at this point. With no book (let alone no music), the time really crawls. Needless to say, no reading possible during HIIT.

 

[braskibra]

I'm on mobile so it's difficult for me to retort to your previous statements. I have not forgotten about his.

Please, cite specifically how LISS hampers lean muscle acquiral?

are you going to actually read the listed citation? Or continue to ask repetitive questions?

Maybe you should take the time to read the citation provided above,including the one I posted before getting all cheeks about it

thanksssss

 

[bdcc]

If we are going to discuss concurrent training and competing adaptations it makes sense that we post a meta analysis on the topic for anyone who is interested.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22002517

Abstract
The primary objective of this investigation was to identify which components of endurance training (e.g., modality, duration, frequency) are detrimental to resistance training outcomes. A meta-analysis of 21 studies was performed with a total of 422 effect sizes (ESs). Criteria for the study included were (a) compare strength training alone to strength plus endurance training (concurrent) or to compare combinations of concurrent training; (b) the outcome measures include at least one measure of strength, power, or hypertrophy; and (c) the data necessary to calculate ESs must be included or available. The mean ES for hypertrophy for strength training was 1.23; for endurance training, it was 0.27; and for concurrent training, it was 0.85, with strength and concurrent training being significantly greater than endurance training only. The mean ES for strength development for strength training was 1.76; for endurance training, it was 0.78; and for concurrent training, it was 1.44. Strength and concurrent training was significantly greater than endurance training. The mean ES for power development for strength training only was 0.91; for endurance training, it was 0.11; and for concurrent training, it was 0.55. Significant differences were found between all the 3 groups. For moderator variables, resistance training concurrently with running, but not cycling, resulted in significant decrements in both hypertrophy and strength. Correlational analysis identified significant negative relationships between frequency (-0.26 to -0.35) and duration (-0.29 to -0.75) of endurance training for hypertrophy, strength, and power. Significant relationships (p < 0.05) between ES for decreased body fat and % maximal heart rate (r = -0.60) were also found. Our results indicate that interference effects of endurance training are a factor of the modality, frequency, and duration of the endurance training selected.

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The abstract doesn't really do the full text justice. It is well worth a read.

 

[SwolenONE]

My experiences and opinions dont always parallel his, but Im always interested in reading his thoughts. Thanks for posting that.

 

[The Solution]

if the solution posted what i think he did, it does discuss LISS being detrimental to muscle..and HIIT being far superior to bodybuilding purposes if done correctly

Correct right from the podcast and results in DR Wilton's lab in FLA

 

[braskibra]

If we are going to discuss concurrent training and competing adaptations it makes sense that we post a meta analysis on the topic for anyone who is interested.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22002517

Abstract
The primary objective of this investigation was to identify which components of endurance training (e.g., modality, duration, frequency) are detrimental to resistance training outcomes. A meta-analysis of 21 studies was performed with a total of 422 effect sizes (ESs). Criteria for the study included were (a) compare strength training alone to strength plus endurance training (concurrent) or to compare combinations of concurrent training; (b) the outcome measures include at least one measure of strength, power, or hypertrophy; and (c) the data necessary to calculate ESs must be included or available. The mean ES for hypertrophy for strength training was 1.23; for endurance training, it was 0.27; and for concurrent training, it was 0.85, with strength and concurrent training being significantly greater than endurance training only. The mean ES for strength development for strength training was 1.76; for endurance training, it was 0.78; and for concurrent training, it was 1.44. Strength and concurrent training was significantly greater than endurance training. The mean ES for power development for strength training only was 0.91; for endurance training, it was 0.11; and for concurrent training, it was 0.55. Significant differences were found between all the 3 groups. For moderator variables, resistance training concurrently with running, but not cycling, resulted in significant decrements in both hypertrophy and strength. Correlational analysis identified significant negative relationships between frequency (-0.26 to -0.35) and duration (-0.29 to -0.75) of endurance training for hypertrophy, strength, and power. Significant relationships (p < 0.05) between ES for decreased body fat and % maximal heart rate (r = -0.60) were also found. Our results indicate that interference effects of endurance training are a factor of the modality, frequency, and duration of the endurance training selected.

---

The abstract doesn't really do the full text justice. It is well worth a read.

that makes too much sense lol