is amentoflavone bunk??

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konojo

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first and foremost, in no way am i trying to say it is a useless supp nor am I targeting any companies. I just want to clear up some of the confusion surrounding it.

someone on another forum brought up a point about the extremely poor bioavailability of orally dosed amentoflavone. same person also mentioned that, even with the bioavailability problem aside, the amento products today don't offer a "physiologically relevant" dose, as studies have dosed it 300mg/kg in rodents. can anyone speak on this matter?

Liquid Chromatography-Tandem Mass Spectrometry Determination and Pharmacokinetic Analysis of Amentoflavone and its Conjugated Metabolites in Rats. J Agric Food Chem. 2014 Nov 21;

"Despite these promising activities, the pharmacokinetics of AMF has not been well characterized, beyond establishing its poor oral bioavailability."

"These data collectively suggested that AMF was rapidly conjugated (glucuronidated and/or sulfated) in the bloodstream, which may explain its rapid clearance time and high volume of distribution."

"After a 300 mg/kg PO dose, a low level of the free form of AMF was detected in the bloodstream throughout the analysis period (Figure 4c and Table 5). In contrast, higher concentrations of the AMF conjugates were detected, representing 90.7% of the total AMF, based on the AUC0-t (Table 6). Comparison of the AUC0-t 352 values following PO and IV doses indicated that the absolute oral bioavailability of total AMF was low (~ 0.13% ± 0.04%)."

"Although encouraging efficacy data has been reported for AMF in rats 17,18,there have been no careful analyses of the drug metabolism and pharmacokinetic (DMPK) properties of AMF. Previous analyses of related compounds demonstrated that the biflavonoid glycoside moiety can undergo extensive biotransformation in vivo, 29,31 and that the glucuronide and sulfate conjugates are actually the predominant forms found in the bloodstream, urine, and bile. Hence, it is reasonable to assume that the conjugates are the bioactive forms.30"

"Our preliminary investigations of the biotransformation of AMF after PO dosing in rats revealed that glucuronide, sulfate, and sulfate/glucuronide conjugates predominated over the parent compound in the urine and feces, and an in situ perfused rat intestine-liver model also confirmed this nresult (unpublished data). Thus, like other biflavonoids, the conjugated form of AMF is most likely to be the bioactive form."

"Our study also confirmed that AMF showed very low bioavailability after oral dosing. Although the reasons for this are not entirely clear, it is generally thought that large, highly polar molecules are not absorbed efficiently following oral administration.36,37

Consistent with this hypothesis, the apical transporter multidrug resistance-associated protein 2 (MRP2) can efflux some flavonoids, resulting in a dramatically reduced uptake.9 At any rate, oral administration is clearly not the preferred route for AMF delivery."


pubs.acs.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1021/jf5019615
 

konojo

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Also here are comments from the comments section of Neuron's blog post about amentoflavone which have also caught my attention

For being a, "pharmacology", blog, it seems a very fundamental and elementary principle in pharmacology is neglected. That is, the concentration utilized in these in vitro studies must be taken into account if attempting to extrapolate what may happen in vivo.

Contrary to what is written in this blog, caffeine DOES NOT enhance muscle strength by increasing calcium release from the SR, as the concentrations shown in vitro to do so require MILLIMOLAR concentrations to elicit such an effect (1). A human would have to ingest supraphysiologic and obviously toxic/deadly quantities of caffeine to achieve such concentrations (i.e., 25-30 grams).

So, sure amentoflavone may in fact being 20 times more potent than caffeine with respect to enhancing calcium release in vitro, but when you consider that the concentration for caffeine shown to increase calcium release requires amounts to be ingested that no human could survive without hospitalization, what is relevancy?

So, even blindly assuming that it has equivalent bioavailabiilty (assuming any pk data exist) as that of caffeine, amentoflavone would only require 1,500 mg or more to equal such an effect. And what sort of toxicity data are available at a dose such as this? And what company sells this compound at such a dose?

The lesson to be learned for people that may not know better is that simply because a paper is published showing a given pharmacological effect at a particular concentration, DOES NOT mean it is achievable in vivo.

(1). jp.physoc.org/content/487/Pt_2/331.long

"The Ca2+ -releasing activity of amentoflavone was approximately 20 times more potent than that of caffeine...These results suggest that amentoflavone, which does not contain a nitrogen atom, probably binds to the caffeine-binding site in Ca2+ channels and thus potentiates Ca2+ -induced Ca2+ release from the heavy fraction of fragmented sarcoplasmic reticulum.

This is a novel mechanism for enhancing muscular contraction and one of the ways in which caffeine increases strength, albeit weakly (9). Since amentoflavone is approximately 20 times more potent then caffeine, it is also possible that it could exert greater efficacy in this area."
and

“Other mechanisms for caffeine have been suggested, such as enhanced calcium mobilization and phosphodiesterase inhibition. However, a normal physiological dose of caffeine in vivo does not indicate this mechanism plays a large role. Additionally, enhanced Na+/K+ pump activity has been proposed to potentially enhance excitation contraction coupling with caffeine. A more favourable hypothesis seems to be that caffeine stimulates the CNS. Caffeine acts antagonistically on adenosine receptors, thereby inhibiting the negative effects adenosine induces on neurotransmission, arousal and pain perception. The hypoalgesic effects of caffeine have resulted in dampened pain perception and blunted perceived exertion during exercise. This could potentially have favourable effects on negating decreased firing rates of motor units and possibly produce a more sustainable and forceful muscle contraction. The exact mechanisms behind caffeine's action remain to be elucidated”

This paper would be good to read as well. The same conclusion is reached. There are in fact many papers out there that have reached the same conclusion. I feel odd having to point this out. This notion of calcium handling playing a role in caffeine’s effects in humans has largely been discarded by most authors, similar to the notion that was largely discarded about two decades ago regarding caffeine being able to inhibit phosphodiesterase as a potential mechanism. Again, the concentrations required in vitro to do so are far beyond what humans achieve.

edb.utexas.edu/ssn/SN%20PDF/Caffeine-Exercise%20Perform.PDF

Last, I must point out that the only paper you reference (Olorunshola and Achi, 2011) which discusses the notion of calcium release being responsible for caffeine’s effect upon muscle force actually supports my position and the position of every published author that has addressed the issue. The paper you cite found that at least 15 mg/mL was required. This is approximately 1,000 times greater than the peak concentration seen after a 500 mg dose in humans! That would require around 500 grams. I sure hope no human would ever ingest that amount!
 
ddfox

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I'll leave the science discussion to others, but I can tell you that I felt a "mood boost" unlike any other product when I tried Norcodrene. (which contains Amento)

Have been wanting to try AmentoMax to compare.
 

ma70

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A long time ago, I tried a product called AppNut Uncut. I didn't even know it had amentoflavone in it (or what it did to begin with). Within the first week of using it, all of my lifts went up easily by 5-10 lbs. Can't really call that placebo effect if I didn't know amentoflavone even existed to begin with, but it's just anecdotal data.
 

NewAgeMayan

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MrC has posted briefly in the main amentoflavone thread why the bioavailability issue may not be an issue at all; neuron has posted elsewhere that the 'AMF is bunk' argument is itself flawed (involves errors as currently presented).

It should also be clarified that those comments quoted from neurons blog are not comments neuron made himself.
 

konojo

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MrC has posted briefly in the main amentoflavone thread why the bioavailability issue may not be an issue at all; neuron has posted elsewhere that the 'AMF is bunk' argument is itself flawed (involves errors as currently presented).
i'm not saying MrC is not trustworthy or anything. in fact, i've thoroughly enjoyed his contributions and posts to this forum and bb.com forums alike. however, he does formulate and rep for a company that produces products with amentoflavone, so he may be slightly biased when it comes to this.

but i am curious about what neuron posted. Any ideas as to where I can find this?
 

NewAgeMayan

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If coopers science is sound/plausible, his motivations are largely irrelevant, no? Put it this way, if we are concerned with trust, Im currently unaware of anyone who holds similiar professional credentials showing his proposed MoA's to be 'bunk'...thus far it is only layman conjecture based on contentious studies.

neuron dosnt get into any detail as to why he thinks the AMF-is-bunk argument is flawed, so obviously take from that what you will.
 
Afi140

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I saw a no hype post on the TL thread about amento as well. I have only used it in norcodrene but enjoyed the results of the blend. I think no hypes argument was that it may be beneficial but not in the way it is marketed? Too much science for me lol.
 

konojo

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If coopers science is sound/plausible, his motivations are largely irrelevant, no? Put it this way, if we are concerned with trust, Im currently unaware of anyone who holds similiar professional credentials showing his proposed MoA's to be 'bunk'...thus far it is only layman conjecture based on contentious studies.

neuron dosnt get into any detail as to why he thinks the AMF-is-bunk argument is flawed, so obviously take from that what you will.
but regardless of credentials, good points were brought up and with evidence (studies) to back them up. even if it is only "layman conjecture based on contentious studies", we can't dismiss it completely?
 
johnnyp

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Analyzed supplements/PES isn't the only company that uses it, so it isn't right to single them out as solely trying to promote their product IMO. That being said other supplements like curcumin are said to have poor bioavailability yet some people vouch for their effectiveness in regards to pain relief, inflammation, mood etc. So unless something is released that totally dismisses it's effectiveness I wouldn't jump to any conclusion.
 

NewAgeMayan

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but regardless of credentials, good points were brought up and with evidence (studies) to back them up. even if it is only "layman conjecture based on contentious studies", we can't dismiss it completely?
My pharmacokenetic knowledge is next to zilch, so Im in no position to assess/critique/offer alternative explanations *beyond* logical considerations; I certainly didnt intend to imply that I thought layman conjectures should be dismissed completely (Ive always maintained, a la Popper, that the source of criticism is somewhat irrelevant).

Again, what has been written on both sides appears to make sense to me logically (but, due to my emperical ignorance on the specific science involved there could well be contradictions/inconsistencies not apparent to me).
 

konojo

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lol at no_hype's new usernames
nah, just trying to justify my komodo amentoflavone purchase a few days ago. i found out about this info literally hours after my purchase, so i guess i just really want to be convinced that this stuff works and i didnt waste my money lol :D
 
cheftepesh1

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Nice to see no hype around. Haven't seen him in months
 

LEATHERFACE92

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nah, just trying to justify my komodo amentoflavone purchase a few days ago. i found out about this info literally hours after my purchase, so i guess i just really want to be convinced that this stuff works and i didnt waste my money lol :D
nice try, but with a guy who spend his holidays searching old posts to create more drama I know that he can't keep himself away from this forum
 

konojo

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Nice to see no hype around. Haven't seen him in months
nice try, but with a guy who spend his holidays searching old posts to create more drama I know that he can't keep himself away from this forum
believe what you want, but i'm not trying to stir up anything. i just really want to know the truth. i'm sure anyone else would want to know as well.
 

LEATHERFACE92

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believe what you want, but i'm not trying to stir up anything. i just really want to know the truth. i'm sure anyone else would want to know as well.
yes but I don't think they are gonna admit that amentoflavone is one of the best placebo around
 
Afi140

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Cjg

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I dont know science but i notice a huge diffrence when i take 2 or 3 amentomax pre workout.. Strength and mood is very obvious
 

konojo

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I dont know science but i notice a huge diffrence when i take 2 or 3 amentomax pre workout.. Strength and mood is very obvious
i guess i'll find out how it works for me when it arrives in the mail in a few days

yes but I don't think they are gonna admit that amentoflavone is one of the best placebo around
yeah that's a good point, but im just hoping someone will present something that will prove otherwise (or maybe they did and i cant find it)

also if it makes things any better, i'm not too fond of the way no_hype says/does things, but he did bring up a valid point
 

NewAgeMayan

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yeah that's a good point, but im just hoping someone will present something that will prove otherwise (or maybe they did and i cant find it)
But what if that 'proof' is presented by Cooper? Or Synapsin? Or anyone else with a 'vested interest' in the commercial success of AMF products? It seems you would not consider such claims 'proofs' due to their source...
 

konojo

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But what if that 'proof' is presented by Cooper? Or Synapsin? Or anyone else with a 'vested interest' in the commercial success of AMF products? It seems you would not consider such claims 'proofs' due to their source...
well i would take something like that with a grain of salt. but iirc, coop posted something that addressed the bioavailability issue, but not the the dosing issue.
 
cheftepesh1

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yeah. I like him around but he just is too abrasive sometimes lol. Needs to be a little more pc I guess
I'd agree but definitely knowledgable. Beat me up a few times in other boards.
 

tin gorilla

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this guy?<img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=112121"/>
Does anyone really care what he looks like, how much he lifts, or whether he is "abrasive"? The more people with sound knowledge who question the efficacy of supplements the better. It is the onus of companies who profit from formulas to justify label claims. People work hard in order to purchase supplements and it is good to have people like this on forums who ask the hard questions.
 
Danes

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Does anyone really care what he looks like, how much he lifts, or whether he is "abrasive"? The more people with sound knowledge who question the efficacy of supplements the better. It is the onus of companies who profit from formulas to justify label claims. People work hard in order to purchase supplements and it is good to have people like this on forums who ask the hard questions.
This!
No matter how they look! I am not interessed in their body but in their knowledge lol

Honestly, i have tried 120mg amento but no effect on strength.
I am not sure if its amento but it made my pulse rate higher
 
carmaf

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Does anyone really care what he looks like, how much he lifts, or whether he is "abrasive"? The more people with sound knowledge who question the efficacy of supplements the better. It is the onus of companies who profit from formulas to justify label claims. People work hard in order to purchase supplements and it is good to have people like this on forums who ask the hard questions.
Damn straight!
 
Piston Honda

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image-3757948828.jpg
 
Grayson

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I'm happy I subbed to this. konojo, just so you know usp and pes are the same company. Or sister companies. Or cousin companies. Whatever you want, they just don't want people knowing @_@
 
bdcc

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I'm happy I subbed to this. konojo, just so you know usp and pes are the same company. Or sister companies. Or cousin companies. Whatever you want, they just don't want people knowing @_@
Are we?

I have worked with PES since we released AnaBeta and have no knowledge of this other than us previously selling stacks with them I.e. Alpha-T2 and OEP and sharing ingredients with them on occasion.

I have had people message me and flat out accuse me of this but when I asked for proof they had nothing, just rumour and suspicion.

Funnily enough, I have also seen accusations that USP Labs own Athletix and we own SNS (seriously) lol.

I am all for objective speculation, I think it is healthy. I am not for people who spread rumours as facts without having any proof of the claim. :)
 

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But what if that 'proof' is presented by Cooper? Or Synapsin? Or anyone else with a 'vested interest' in the commercial success of AMF products? It seems you would not consider such claims 'proofs' due to their source...

Got nothing out of it. The way it was hyped up was crazy too, has to be placebo effects
 

kissdadookie

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A long time ago, I tried a product called AppNut Uncut. I didn't even know it had amentoflavone in it (or what it did to begin with). Within the first week of using it, all of my lifts went up easily by 5-10 lbs. Can't really call that placebo effect if I didn't know amentoflavone even existed to begin with, but it's just anecdotal data.
Ditto, but UnCut was a stim bomb. When I used their Beta Test (has amentoflavone in it) and Amentomax, I can't really say that I've noticed anything out of the ordinary, but I based my usage of amentoflavone off of the promising write up and my good experience with UnCut, but again, UnCut was a stim bomb.

I'll leave the science discussion to others, but I can tell you that I felt a "mood boost" unlike any other product when I tried Norcodrene. (which contains Amento)

Have been wanting to try AmentoMax to compare.
There's also quite a few other ingredients in there with the stims in an undisclosed ratio mixture which can of course affect mood, etc.

MrC has posted briefly in the main amentoflavone thread why the bioavailability issue may not be an issue at all; neuron has posted elsewhere that the 'AMF is bunk' argument is itself flawed (involves errors as currently presented).

It should also be clarified that those comments quoted from neurons blog are not comments neuron made himself.
Neuron also said he's never used the stuff himself and on the Q&A with PA section on another board, is pretty indifferent about it actually being of worth or not. Only thing he's ever really said about bioavailbility was that in the murine model, it was more bioavailable than other similar compounds, but if you look at the murine data, that's a huge dose for a lab mouse, if you translate that to a human equivalent dose, you're going to need a very very very large dose of it.

Can't discount that amentoflavone may have other properties though or maybe enhances stimulants one is taking with it, but based on the MOA suspected from it to illicit the proposed effects, pretty unlikely.
 

kissdadookie

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I saw a no hype post on the TL thread about amento as well. I have only used it in norcodrene but enjoyed the results of the blend. I think no hypes argument was that it may be beneficial but not in the way it is marketed? Too much science for me lol.
Basically that is what he was saying.

It's also good that he pointed out comparing amentoflavone to caffeine for calcium release is kind of nonsensical because the way caffeine works on increasing strength is essentially due to CNS stimulation rather than calcium release (PA said as much on the Q&A section on the other board). So it's like "here's this weak calcium release-er that doesn't actually do that in practical terms in humans, this one is better than that one." Something that is better than something is is virtually nothing is not necessarily something. However, for the MOA to play out as written, it needs to be bioavailable in the first place which in the in vivo data, it doesn't seem to be bioavailable especially at the doses being currently used. Also the MOA in question here, that is largely based on in vitro data (petri dish culture if you will).

So could it be doing something? Possibly, is it doing what it’s being proposed as to be doing? Doesn’t appear so based on the available information on the subject.
 
Danes

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If I showed you some other users' "real" pictures, would you still think they were clowns? I won't, but you may be surprised; only because that seems to matter to you.
Totaly agree!

LEATHERFACE92,
What makes one guy trustable:
-big dick
-nice face
-muscular body
?????????
:D
 

kissdadookie

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but regardless of credentials, good points were brought up and with evidence (studies) to back them up. even if it is only "layman conjecture based on contentious studies", we can't dismiss it completely?
The studies were not contentious to begin with. That is the data we have. The calcium release data IIRC was from in vitro data. The in vivo murine model data clearly shows that bioavailibility is atrocious and we're not anywhere near close to dosing it at a human equivalent dose to the murine dose currently (that I know of, highest dose is what, 120 mg? ~300 or so if you use Beta Test from AppNut?). Mind you, the calcium release data was for the effects of amentoflavone as is intact iirc, thus for that to work, it needs to make it intact into circulation in the body, it’s not and certainly not at the current dosages being used. So going by that, it’s unlikely the MOA here is calcium release.

PDE inhibition effects-wise, the level it does this at and I think that data may have been based on amentoflavone as is intact, it’s not going to do much in practical terms.

If one is going to argue that the studies suggesting that it’s not doing anything is contentious, then I would think the data which is being used to suggest it’s doing something of worth in humans at the dosages being used would be even more contentious.

Could it be doing something? Very possibly so, who knows, is it doing what the in vitro data suggests it’s doing if we are using it in the doses people are using and via oral administration? Probably not due to the lack of bioavailability?

Could this be simply a case of a promising idea catching on really really quick and leading to people not having looked into it as thoroughly as they should have in the first place? Very possibly, we're only human.
 

NewAgeMayan

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Got nothing out of it. The way it was hyped up was crazy too, has to be placebo effects
Any supp you dont get something out of has to be placebo for others? Maybe AMF is orally nonefficacious, but your logic here is surely trolling.
 

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The study is indeed contentious if it is considered irrelevant to the question of human ergogenics.
 

kissdadookie

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The study is indeed contentious if it is considered irrelevant to the question of human ergogenics.
It's not contentious when the claim is that something works via calcium release but the data that is based on is based on what amentoflavone does as an intact molecule considering that it's not circulating in your body as an intact molecule and even the conjugates can't really be found in good amounts in the body.

Also, if one looks at the wildly varying feedback on the stuff used on it's own, the degrees in which it varies would make the results likely to be placebo before some quantifiable MOA of the compound.

The only real common thread with amentoflavone is that we loved UnCut. Many of us it would appear base our use of amentoflavone off of our experiences with UnCut, but again, UnCut was a stim bomb.
 

konojo

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well komodo amentoflavone just arrived at my door, so i'm going to try it out today and see how it goes. i can't say i'm not excited to try it because it does seem to be the most hyped out thing around here lately.

edit: didn't notice anything from amento for today's workout besides a slightly increased heartrate. 2 weeks ago, i squatted 370x2 no amento, today was 365x3 with 3 caps amento. nothing. will try again thursday.
 

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'In the body' is quite a general, encompassing, non-specific phrase...does it mean 'localised to plasma levels only'? Or does it mean skeletal muscle tissue?
 

kissdadookie

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'In the body' is quite a general, encompassing, non-specific phrase...does it mean 'localised to plasma levels only'? Or does it also include skeletal muscle tissue as well?
It needs to make it into plasma to make it into tissue when you're taking the damn thing orally.

1) Amentoflavone intact is not found in circulation at doses far far far higher than anybody has used in supplements (the calcium release MOA basically requires the amentoflavone to be intact, if it's not making into circulation intact, that would suggest this claim being irrelevant)
2) It's conjugates are not found to be in circulation in decent amounts especially in the doses being used as oral supplementation.

You're taking something orally, it goes into digestion, it needs to make it out of digestion into circulation. You think the compound just magically melts it's way out of your digestive system and into your muscles?

Curcumin has been brought up a lot in those amento discussions referenced in that other thread on that other board. Look at all the work done to help improve bioavailibility of curcumin and even then, curcumin is taken at pretty large doses still. Things need to make it through digestion first and foremost if you're orally taking the substance.

Could amento be doing things we don't know about? Possibly, but that's not the claims being used now is it? It's being marketed for calcium release in muscle tissue along with PDE inhibition (which I honestly don't see it having much of a value in to begin with, but, that's a secondary claim, the first and foremost being the calcium release).

Also, for it to NOT be placebo, there seriously needs to be more consistent feedback, thus far it's been wildly varying.
 

NewAgeMayan

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It needs to make it into plasma to make it into tissue when you're taking the damn thing orally.
I asked MrC the exact same question some time ago:

"Compounds which have a high Vd leave the blood immediately to enter tissue. They aren't detectable in circulation because they are lipophilic and immediately leave the hydrophilic plasma to get to more lipophilic tissue"

Also, for it to NOT be placebo, there seriously needs to be more consistent feedback, thus far it's been wildly varying.
I would personally be reluctant to use the variances of anecdote as a measuring stick or indicator as to a compounds efficacy. I mean, the feedback with something like ArA (for example) ranges from "I got nothing!!1!" right through to "OMG its like a PH!!"
 

kissdadookie

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I asked MrC the exact same question some time ago:

"Compounds which have a high Vd leave the blood immediately to enter tissue. They aren't detectable in circulation because they are lipophilic and immediately leave the hydrophilic plasma to get to more lipophilic tissue"



I would personally be reluctant to use the variances of anecdote as a measuring stick or indicator as to a compounds efficacy. I mean, the feedback with something like ArA (for example) ranges from "I got nothing!!1!" right through to "OMG its like a PH!!"
That doesn't make any sense, and I quote:

"Finally, the compound has a high Vd and thus can progressively saturate tissues due to high tissue retention (analagous to curcumin -> low BV, high tissue distribution), so continuous use should yield improved results."

So if it's like curcumin, how does it explain that this stuff is having such acute effects from the first dose? What the above suggests is that for effects to be realized, it's going to take a good while of regular dosing to build up to a level in which you will have perceivable effects.

Again, even with curcumin, curcumin is dosed daily IN GRAMS AND that's with bioavailibility enhancements either being complexed with lipo delivery compounds or taken with piperine.
 
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Lets please keep the personal stuff out. Thanks.
 

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That doesn't make any sense, and I quote:

"Finally, the compound has a high Vd and thus can progressively saturate tissues due to high tissue retention (analagous to curcumin -> low BV, high tissue distribution), so continuous use should yield improved results."

So if it's like curcumin, how does it explain that this stuff is having such acute effects from the first dose? What the above suggests is that for effects to be realized, it's going to take a good while of regular dosing to build up to a level in which you will have perceivable effects.
I read that differently. That quote dosnt necessarily mean that it will take a good while to build up to a certain 'perceivable' level; the key phrase for me is "improved results". Nothing about the term "improved results" necessarily precludes acute effects, it means results will potentially improve with continuous use. Meaning, not all of the potential effects/benefits of dosing AMF will be realized acutely.
 

kissdadookie

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I read that differently. That quote dosnt necessarily mean that it will take a good while to build up to a certain 'perceivable' level; the key phrase for me is "improved results". Nothing about the term "improved results" necessarily precludes acute effects, it means results will potentially improve with continuous use. Meaning, not all of the potential effects of AMF dosing will be realized acutely.
That quote was a counter to the bioavailibility issue N_H brought up. You can't have both being true at the same time (acute effects to be had immediately if the stuff makes it into circulation in relevant concentrations as well as oh we know the bioavailbility sucks but it can build up in tissue over time, the thing that can't be true is the acute effects in both scenarios when the bioavailibility is so poor). We already know from the data that this stuff has poor bioavailibility and if you want to get it into circulation in relevant concentrations, you need to dose it at very high doses (again, look at curcumin).

If the proposed theory now is that due to high Vd, you can achieve tissue saturation OVER TIME, that in no way shape or form explain how one is supposed to notice acute effects likely due to calcium release from the first 1-2 doses. Especially at such very small dosages.

Remember, the proposed immediate and acute effects of amento is supposedly due to calcium release, going by the data available, that needs to make it into circulation in relevant concentrations intact, not happening with orally administered amento especially at such low dosages.

Again, back to curcumin, all those bioavailibility enhancements done to it and having the doses being so relatively high, the whole idea behind that is to help get the stuff pass the digestive system intact as well as make it through metabolism in the liver intact. Key takeaway is that they are trying to get as much of it intact and in circulation in the body.
 

NewAgeMayan

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It is a little frustrating for the consumer when we haven't seen much in the way of rebuttal from any of the companies concerned. I think everyone understands that we are currently in the middle of hoildays so time is at a premium for some, but this topic has been ongoing for a number of months now and all I have really seen is brief counters and borderline ad hominem's (the latter of which I am guilty of as well).

Is the silence due to:

*not wanting to dig a hole further for oneself (ie the MoA of AMF is, at present, highly theoretical so people are reluctant to post due to fear of accusations of 'ad hoc sympathetics' due perhaps to historic errors?)

*the layman is considered incapable of understanding the pharmacokinetics involved (unlikely, given the science we are otherwise treated to by companies)

*there really is widespread placebo involved here (the companies are in too deep to backtrack out)

Or maybe a thorough rebuttal will be forthcoming *shrug*
 
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