ASPIRIN/EPHEDRA/CAFFEINE

thebigt

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i see a few of the current guru's are advocating eliminating aspirin from the equation...well, for me i tried without the aspirin and found results were diminished, both stim effect and in particular appetite suppression. by diminished i mean less effect plus effect not lasting nearly as long.

i would like to hear others thoughts on this....not google reports or studies, but actual hands on experiences!!!

thanks, in advance.
 
Abe Lincoln

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I have never run the stack and this may not be correct, but hear we go... Lol. From what I know of aspirin is that it thins blood and caffeine can be restrictive on blood vessels, so maybe when blood thins it allows the caffeine to surge throughout the body more readily. Again probably wrong as eff lol.
 
Afi140

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I ran with baby aspirin for a little and it didn't have any noticeable results on body composition for myself so I eliminated it and still had good results. How much aspirin are you dosing per serving?
 
thebigt

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I have never run the stack and this may not be correct, but hear we go... Lol. From what I know of aspirin is that it thins blood and caffeine can be restrictive on blood vessels, so maybe when blood thins it allows the caffeine to surge throughout the body more readily. Again probably wrong as eff lol.
so you have never tried it......

real world results, please!!!
 
thebigt

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I ran with baby aspirin for a little and it didn't have any noticeable results on body composition for myself so I eliminated it and still had good results. How much aspirin are you dosing per serving?
1 buffered aspirin 325mg, i only use 2 daily and for short cycles...a week to 10 days is normal, i usually see desired effects within that time range.
 
Afi140

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1 buffered aspirin 325mg, i only use 2 daily and for short cycles...a week to 10 days is normal, i usually see desired effects within that time range.
I see no problem with week to 10 day cycles. I think the main concern was the long term effects of like 8 week cycles at 3 doses of 500mg of aspirin with each serving.
 
Piston Honda

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Back when ECA was the hot stack, wasn't the aspirin at 82mgs, caffeine 200 mg and ephedra 25 mgs?
 
Afi140

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Back when ECA was the hot stack, wasn't the aspirin at 82mgs, caffeine 200 mg and ephedra 25 mgs?
I'm pretty sure it was 325. I think hot n fit now says if you want aspirin do baby aspirin for each dose of you want the aspirin.
 
thebigt

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I'm pretty sure it was 325. I think hot n fit now says if you want aspirin do baby aspirin for each dose of you want the aspirin.
i know of tons of guys who did 325mg 2-3x day with ephedra and caffeine in high doses back in the day.....if you are not going to dose it right, why bother?
 
Driven2lift

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Its only needed with the first dose

The Aspirin is not to enhance fat loss so much as it is to prevent platelet aggregation while running EC. Baby Aspirin once is all you should need
 

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While it has been years since I have personally run this stack (minus the aspirin), I almost certain it was proven that eliminating the aspirin did not hinder the results. EC always worked great for me.
 
thebigt

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While it has been years since I have personally run this stack (minus the aspirin), I almost certain it was proven that eliminating the aspirin did not hinder the results. EC always worked great for me.
proven by who? since you did not personally try it how do you now this to be true. personally for me i did try it both ways, and it DID hinder effects.
 
thebigt

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Its only needed with the first dose

The Aspirin is not to enhance fat loss so much as it is to prevent platelet aggregation while running EC. Baby Aspirin once is all you should need
and this is because of personal trial and error, or something you read somewhere?
 
thebigt

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not trying to be a smartass, just looking for personal experiences, not internet googling, lol.
 
Abe Lincoln

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I wasn't google searching lol, my mom is a doc so have **** tons of books and discussions about aspirin before
 
Driven2lift

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and this is because of personal trial and error, or something you read somewhere?
I found no difference with or without

The reason it is included is for anti platelet aggregation (told to me by Cooper, then read myself several places upon researching)

That said I am also the first to admit that everyone is different and some users may very well find it more effective with aspirin.
 
blacklac

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E causes platelet aggregation?

I know its taken for Ara for that reason.
 
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FireRescue

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proven by who? since you did not personally try it how do you now this to be true. personally for me i did try it both ways, and it DID hinder effects.
Proven by clinical research trials.

Here is a nice quick read with citations:

This is from an article written by Stephen Schmitz, MD, MPH
and Bruce Kneller, BSN-RN.

Aspirin

"Aspirin {salicyclic acid acetate} and it's naturally occurring methyl ester (methyl salicylate)-- found in the leaves of Gaultheria procumbrens and on the bark of Betula lenta-- have long been used as analgesics, anti-inflammatories, antipyretics and recently as anti-coagulants. The "A" portion of eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin, aspirin has been thought of potentiating the thermogenic and lipolytic properties of both ephedrine and caffeine. Recent research seems to contradict this however. At a study at The University of London's Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, 40 women (20 non-obese and 20 obese) were given either ephedrine and caffeine (30 mg and 100 mg) or ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin (30 mg, 100 mg, and 300 mg) post prandially (1050 kJ liquid meal). Using indirect calorimetry, observations were made in all groups every 30 minutes for 160 minutes. There was no significant differences between the groups that received aspirin and the groups that did not. We conclude that aspirin does not potentiate the acute thermic effect of ephedrine and caffeine.6

In another study conducted at King's College in London, it was demonstrated that aspirin does not potentiate the thermogenic response to ephedrine in lean women and only slightly so in obese women.7 The increase seen in this study represented a 1.2 kcal per hour increase in metabolism for lean women and a 2.4 kcal per hour increase in metabolism in obese women over use of ephedrine alone, which over an entire week, would represent less than one ounce of bodyweight. We feel that this is insignificant.7

Based on these two studies, we feel that aspirin and its analogs do not play a substantial role in inducing or increasing thermogenesis and/or lipolysis but they do have the potential to induce SAEs when consumed over long periods of time (e.g. ulceration of the stomach and increases in bleeding times). Therefore, we feel that aspirin and it's analogs should not be used in any thermogenic/lipolytic stack."

6) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Post-prandial Thermogenesis with Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin in Lean, Predisposed Obese and Non-obese women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disorder, 1996 Feb;20(2):91-95.
7) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Aspirin Potentiates the Effect of Ephedrine on the Thermogenic Response to a Meal in Obese but not Lean Women. Int J Obes, 1991 May;15(5):359-366.


Most of the arguements that people make for aspirin state that aspirin extends the thermogenic effects of ephedrine by inhibiting the enzyme cyclooxygenase and therefore decreasing prostaglandin synthesis (why aspirin is an anti-inflammatory). This helps combat one of ephedrine's effects. Ephedrine stimulates the release of norepinephrine, which stimulates the release of adenosine and the synthesis of prostaglandins by the activated tissue. Since aspirin inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandins (1), it is believed it enhances the effect of norepinephrine (the reason why caffeine is included in the stack to combat adenosine). By increasing the amount of norepinephrine one would expect to increase lipolysis. Caffeine achieves this, however in actual studies aspirin as yet to prove the same. One can only hypothesize on why aspirin's effect on prostaglandins does not effect lipolysis.


There have been no studies that I am aware of that show that an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack is more effective than an EC stack. The only studies that have been proven to work are when an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack has been done in a study against a placebo. Couple this information with the effects aspirin has on the stomach (nausea, heartburn, and sometimes bleeding ulcers) one could conclude that the most effective stack would be just Ephedrine and Caffeine.

1. Rawson ES, Clarkson PA. Ephedrine as an ergogenic aid. Performance-enhancing Substances in Sport and Exercise. ED Bahrke MS, Yesalis CE. Human Kinetics. 2002.
 
thebigt

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I found no difference with or without

The reason it is included is for anti platelet aggregation (told to me by Cooper, then read myself several places upon researching)

That said I am also the first to admit that everyone is different and some users may very well find it more effective with aspirin.
the 1st sentence says it all....i am also inclined to agree with the last sentence, since i find it to be noticeably more effective with than without...the middle sentence has no relevance for me, since i am only looking for personal experiences!!!
 
thebigt

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Proven by clinical research trials.

Here is a nice quick read with citations:

This is from an article written by Stephen Schmitz, MD, MPH
and Bruce Kneller, BSN-RN.

Aspirin

"Aspirin {salicyclic acid acetate} and it's naturally occurring methyl ester (methyl salicylate)-- found in the leaves of Gaultheria procumbrens and on the bark of Betula lenta-- have long been used as analgesics, anti-inflammatories, antipyretics and recently as anti-coagulants. The "A" portion of eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin, aspirin has been thought of potentiating the thermogenic and lipolytic properties of both ephedrine and caffeine. Recent research seems to contradict this however. At a study at The University of London's Department of Nutrition and Dietetics, 40 women (20 non-obese and 20 obese) were given either ephedrine and caffeine (30 mg and 100 mg) or ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin (30 mg, 100 mg, and 300 mg) post prandially (1050 kJ liquid meal). Using indirect calorimetry, observations were made in all groups every 30 minutes for 160 minutes. There was no significant differences between the groups that received aspirin and the groups that did not. We conclude that aspirin does not potentiate the acute thermic effect of ephedrine and caffeine.6

In another study conducted at King's College in London, it was demonstrated that aspirin does not potentiate the thermogenic response to ephedrine in lean women and only slightly so in obese women.7 The increase seen in this study represented a 1.2 kcal per hour increase in metabolism for lean women and a 2.4 kcal per hour increase in metabolism in obese women over use of ephedrine alone, which over an entire week, would represent less than one ounce of bodyweight. We feel that this is insignificant.7

Based on these two studies, we feel that aspirin and its analogs do not play a substantial role in inducing or increasing thermogenesis and/or lipolysis but they do have the potential to induce SAEs when consumed over long periods of time (e.g. ulceration of the stomach and increases in bleeding times). Therefore, we feel that aspirin and it's analogs should not be used in any thermogenic/lipolytic stack."

6) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Post-prandial Thermogenesis with Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin in Lean, Predisposed Obese and Non-obese women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disorder, 1996 Feb;20(2):91-95.
7) Horton TJ, Geissler CA. Aspirin Potentiates the Effect of Ephedrine on the Thermogenic Response to a Meal in Obese but not Lean Women. Int J Obes, 1991 May;15(5):359-366.


Most of the arguements that people make for aspirin state that aspirin extends the thermogenic effects of ephedrine by inhibiting the enzyme cyclooxygenase and therefore decreasing prostaglandin synthesis (why aspirin is an anti-inflammatory). This helps combat one of ephedrine's effects. Ephedrine stimulates the release of norepinephrine, which stimulates the release of adenosine and the synthesis of prostaglandins by the activated tissue. Since aspirin inhibits the synthesis of prostaglandins (1), it is believed it enhances the effect of norepinephrine (the reason why caffeine is included in the stack to combat adenosine). By increasing the amount of norepinephrine one would expect to increase lipolysis. Caffeine achieves this, however in actual studies aspirin as yet to prove the same. One can only hypothesize on why aspirin's effect on prostaglandins does not effect lipolysis.


There have been no studies that I am aware of that show that an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack is more effective than an EC stack. The only studies that have been proven to work are when an eca - ephedrine - caffeine - aspirin stack has been done in a study against a placebo. Couple this information with the effects aspirin has on the stomach (nausea, heartburn, and sometimes bleeding ulcers) one could conclude that the most effective stack would be just Ephedrine and Caffeine.

1. Rawson ES, Clarkson PA. Ephedrine as an ergogenic aid. Performance-enhancing Substances in Sport and Exercise. ED Bahrke MS, Yesalis CE. Human Kinetics. 2002.
very nice, just what i said i didn't want!!!

no studies, just personal experiences please....
 
MultiVitamin

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I always thought 81mg was the suggested dose for A?

I helped my buddy run an ECA stack.. 24mg E/400mg C/81mg A

He ran it again and told me he didn't really take any aspirin because he felt like it was pointless. I think the first time he lost 8lbs in 3-4 weeks and 10+(maybe up to 14)lbs in the same span the 2nd time

Obviously circumstances were different each time... So idk if this helps or not, but his fat loss effects seemed equal, and he even mentioned how he felt A was useless
 
Afi140

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I always thought 81mg was the suggested dose for A? I helped my buddy run an ECA stack.. 24mg E/400mg C/81mg A He ran it again and told me he didn't really take any aspirin because he felt like it was pointless. I think the first time he lost 8lbs in 3-4 weeks and 10+(maybe up to 14)lbs in the same span the 2nd time Obviously circumstances were different each time... So idk if this helps or not, but his fat loss effects seemed equal, and he even mentioned how he felt A was useless
I hope that was not 400mg of c 3x a day. The average studied dose is 200-250mg and effects are more than adequate.
 
thebigt

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I always thought 81mg was the suggested dose for A?

I helped my buddy run an ECA stack.. 24mg E/400mg C/81mg A

He ran it again and told me he didn't really take any aspirin because he felt like it was pointless. I think the first time he lost 8lbs in 3-4 weeks and 10+(maybe up to 14)lbs in the same span the 2nd time

Obviously circumstances were different each time... So idk if this helps or not, but his fat loss effects seemed equal, and he even mentioned how he felt A was useless
based on his 1st experience with aspirin how did he know the aspirin was pointless for the 2nd run? if i have good results with something i try not to change ANYTHING!!!

this is the kind of stuff i am looking for, thanks!!! if i just wanted a bunch of studies i would make google my home forum, lol.
 
MultiVitamin

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based on his 1st experience with aspirin how did he know the aspirin was pointless for the 2nd run? if i have good results with something i try not to change ANYTHING!!!

this is the kind of stuff i am looking for, thanks!!! if i just wanted a bunch of studies i would make google my home forum, lol.
He's that kind of person if you know what I mean. If he runs a wet PH he'll drop the AI after a week or two, **** like that. So I can't really help you there, pretty much it was an inconvenience and he's lazy lol
Afi140; no 400mg/day
 
Afi140

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He's that kind of person if you know what I mean. If he runs a wet PH he'll drop the AI after a week or two, **** like that. So I can't really help you there, pretty much it was an inconvenience and he's lazy lol Afi140; no 400mg/day
cool lol. I was a little worried haha
 

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very nice, just what i said i didn't want!!!

no studies, just personal experiences please....
And how do you propose we evaluate our platelet function via personal experience? "Yeah, I could feel my platelets weren't sticking together as much when I took aspirin. I also noted that prostanoid synthesis was relatively undisturbed w/ 81mg...I could feel it!" Think about it brah :D
 

FireRescue

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very nice, just what i said i didn't want!!!

no studies, just personal experiences please....
I posted my personal experience and made the comment that it was proven the A did not aid in fat loss. You then asked for proof of my comments. The proof of my comments happened to come from clinical trials. BTW I never mentioned that there might be other possible benefits to the A my comments were only about fat loss.

Come to think of it I did run the original Twin Lab Ripped Fuel which White Willow Bark, IIRC, what some might consider a possible substitute for the aspirin. Neither Ripped Fuel or just EC worked better than the other. Both work great.
 
HokiePride

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I just don't understand why EC works for everyone but me! I tried it several times any got no results!
 
thebigt

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I posted my personal experience and made the comment that it was proven the A did not aid in fat loss. You then asked for proof of my comments. The proof of my comments happened to come from clinical trials. BTW I never mentioned that there might be other possible benefits to the A my comments were only about fat loss.

Come to think of it I did run the original Twin Lab Ripped Fuel which White Willow Bark, IIRC, what some might consider a possible substitute for the aspirin. Neither Ripped Fuel or just EC worked better than the other. Both work great.
you said in your post that you ran it minus the aspirin, so i asked how do you know aspirin has no effect-lets get it straight here...then you posted a page long study, which i specifically specified not too.
 
thebigt

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And how do you propose we evaluate our platelet function via personal experience? "Yeah, I could feel my platelets weren't sticking together as much when I took aspirin. I also noted that prostanoid synthesis was relatively undisturbed w/ 81mg...I could feel it!" Think about it brah :D
i don't see where i asked anything about platelet function, just personal experience from those who have tried it with and without...geez it seems so simple!!!
 

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i don't see where i asked anything about platelet function, just personal experience from those who have tried it with and without...geez it seems so simple!!!
I understand, but you realize there is literally nothing you "feel" from 81mg aspirin. Aspirin is the most widely consumed pharmaceutical. If you ask anyone who takes a baby aspirin what they feel, they will say nothing.
 
thebigt

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I understand, but you realize there is literally nothing you "feel" from 81mg aspirin. Aspirin is the most widely consumed pharmaceutical. If you ask anyone who takes a baby aspirin what they feel, they will say nothing.
more like aspirin as a sort of agonist, kinda like grapefruit will cause more effect of certain medicines/supps. you see where i am at?
 

mr.cooper69

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more like aspirin as a sort of agonist, kinda like grapefruit will cause more effect of certain medicines/supps. you see where i am at?
That's not agonism, that's CYP inhibition. Agonism is when you stimulate a receptor. Grapefruit juice is a CYP inhibitor like you said; aspirin is not, and has almost no pharmacokinetic drug interactions (hence its exceptional safety profile)
 
thebigt

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That's not agonism, that's CYP inhibition. Agonism is when you stimulate a receptor. Grapefruit juice is a CYP inhibitor like you said; aspirin is not, and has almost no pharmacokinetic drug interactions (hence its exceptional safety profile)
i knew i was going to be called out for calling it an agonist, lol. what do you think would cause my better results with than without? i am really curious about this!!!

i was hoping there would be others who had ran it both ways post in this thread...have you?
 
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i knew i was going to be called out for calling it an agonist, lol. what do you think would cause my better results with than without? i am really curious about this!!!

i was hoping there would be others who had ran it both ways post in this thread...have you?
I think coop always runs it with the baby aspirin (for the reasons he mentions)
 
thebigt

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kBrown

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I've thought of running fhis stack a few times curiosity is once again piqued
 

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So what I gather here is one daily dose of baby aspirin for ECA is beneficial. What is the optimal timing for this dose?
 
HokiePride

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How can you tell if it's working? Usually howong before seeing bf loss?
 
SwolenONE

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How can you tell if it's working? Usually howong before seeing bf loss?
You'll feel the stim and appetite reducing benefits from the first dose. Fat loss will be individual, but folks I know who run the ECA stack generally lean out quite rapidly on it.
 
thebigt

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since caffeine supposedly makes aspirin 40% more effective for pain relief....wouldn't this indirectly improve performance? i know i am more motivated to hit the weights and do cardio if i am feeling less pain....and pain seems to be something almost everyone who is active has to one degree or another.
 

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