USA Today getting ready to run an article on AMP Citrate

IFNutrition

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I was contacted this week by a reporter from USA Today , Allison Young. She wanted to know if I would be interested in talking about an ingredient (Amp Citrate a.k.a Amperall - trademarked version that we use) in our product Iron Forged Nutrition Contraband. Thankfully I was familiar with the work of Ms.Young and I don't feel like she would portray any info I would give defending the ingredient in the right light. She said that there are a lot of researchers saying that Amp Citrate is very similar to 1,3 DMAA and that there is very little if any proven safety in humans. Also that it may not actually be derived from a plant. I believe that the FDA was never able to decisively prove that 1,3 was dangerous but they still sent out warning letters stating that it could not be used in supplements. I am afraid that they may going after Amp Citrate next.

Personally I was never a fan of 1,3 DMAA but I know many that loved it and I feel that it should of never been taken off the market. It was abused by a few people and that is what lead to problems. Anything that is abused can cause problems as we all know. If you drink too much water it can kill you, if you take too many Tylenol it will kill you (this in top ten most common visits to the ER ahead of many illegal drugs) , same goes for aspirin, and my favorite Tobacco (which kills more than 400,000 people every year, more than every illegal drug combined) I love Amp Citrate on the otherhand I would hate to see it forgo the same process that 1,3 did. In my experience Amperall (amp citrate) doesn't cause vasoconstriction like most other stimulant compounds and doesn't leave me with a terrible crash. Amp doesn't seem to effect my heart as much as other stimulants like caffeine but it does almost seem to give me a nootropic lazer like focus and mood boost.

How do you guys feel about the regulation of our supplements and this upcoming article?
 
jewgold

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I agree that DMAA should have stayed on the market a few bad apples abused it and now its outed.

But AMP is still new and not much on safety has been studied. Only used it in a few samples so far and haven't really felt much of a difference. So I wouldn't really care if it was outed as well. BUT I do wish these people would stay away from crap they don't know what....leave our supps alone.

If people want to be stupid and abuse stuff that's their deal.
 
Rocket3015

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But you can still by alcohol and cigarettes ???
 
Afi140

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I don't like that chick. I like that she blew up Cahill with just cause but now she is just on a witch hunt.
 
BigBlackGuy

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It seems that the supplement industry is being unfairly targeted. Imagine if someone decided they were going to ban Double Cheeseburgers or Chicken Fried Steak? The general public would go crazy. "What, that's our food! This is America! Freedom! Eagles! Guns! George Washington!!!" But when the government or some other entity wants to demonize the supplement industry and take away what we use, it's easy. The general public, the generally fat, lazy, lethargic and uninformed public, don't care about supplements. So they can be banned with insufficient evidence of harm to humans with such ease. It's pretty disgusting.

Meanwhile, as you said, we're stilling selling tobacco sticks and booze to anyone who wants them. Drunk drivers, lung cancer, liver disease, heart disease (from food) ALL humongous killers. Supplement deaths per year? A water droplet in a lake, if that.
 
Auslifter

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shes all about that $ onto the next potential "risky" harmless supplement that she can portray into a news story to help fund her next shopping spree.
 
TGB1987

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It seems that the supplement industry is being unfairly targeted. Imagine if someone decided they were going to ban Double Cheeseburgers or Chicken Fried Steak? The general public would go crazy. "What, that's our food! This is America! Freedom! Eagles! Guns! George Washington!!!" But when the government or some other entity wants to demonize the supplement industry and take away what we use, it's easy. The general public, the generally fat, lazy, lethargic and uninformed public, don't care about supplements. So they can be banned with insufficient evidence of harm to humans with such ease. It's pretty disgusting.

Meanwhile, as you said, we're stilling selling tobacco sticks and booze to anyone who wants them. Drunk drivers, lung cancer, liver disease, heart disease (from food) ALL humongous killers. Supplement deaths per year? A water droplet in a lake, if that.
I agree! Great post! Makes me sick. I sure hope they open their eyes. There are a lot of jobs and careers in the supplement industry. Our economy is already trashed and here they are trying to protect the american people from dangerous supplements which are not even close to as dangerous as tobacco, alcohol, and fast food. Or are they just protecting us from the evil money they may lose in the pharmaceutical industry to supplement companies if we as Americans take care of ourselves better and are healthier. Our whole healthcare system depends on sick people to make money. Shouldn't it be the other way around? They should be trying to make us healthier and prevent sickness. Sorry I get frustrated when someone in the mainstream media that has no idea about supplements tries to tell everyone how bad they are when in comparison there are much much worse things out there. We need freedom that is what this country was founded on. We are losing freedoms every damn day.
 
mw1

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I'm all for regulation in supplement industry..without it you have people capping products in their house and selling it on the Internet.
I'm surprised USA today contacted Iron Forged as she usually goes after companies that sell a much higher volume
 
TGB1987

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I agree with regulation of supplement manufacturing and by that I mean making sure that supplements are manufactured in a GMP certified facility and making sure the facility keeps the quality up to that standard but that is about as far as I go with regulation. I am a little surprised that they contacted Iron forged as well because they are a newer company but they were the first company with the trademarked amp citrate that we picked up for our website. So I would assume that may be why.
 
Grayson

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Dumb reporter writing a dumb article for dumb americans without any scientific validity. **** her and the hole she came out of.

On a lighter note, is anyone offering a bounty? :)
 

OutOfStep

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The supplement industry has brought this heat on itself. I have no sympathy. And lol at the morons crying about guns, fast food, and cigarettes being sold. At least I know what I'm getting when I buy those products. With a few exceptions, this is a shady industry run by shady people.
 

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The supplement industry has brought this heat on itself. I have no sympathy. And lol at the morons crying about guns, fast food, and cigarettes being sold. At least I know what I'm getting when I buy those products. With a few exceptions, this is a shady industry run by shady people.

I disagree, small compagny can be shady, but real big compagny like muscletech (iovate) can not do that, so in my view you take more risk when you do business with small compagny
 
wray98

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Reporters report to make a name for themselves and money. Sadly, they pray on things that bring heat to an industry that has honest companies who are trying to do the right things. There is nothing wrong with using a new ingredient (AMP), granted there isn't much research or documentation on the use of the ingredient so it is easy to attack. However, then you have cigs, alchohol and other prescription drugs that are dangerous and are well documented to cause harm. If the industry would come together, agree to put forth money towards lobbying and working together to see that ingredients are safe and stay on the market the supplement industry would be less of an attraction of reporters like big pharm or tobacco companies. There are shady companies out there spiking products, not labeling certain ingredients and using weird names not recognizable by eyes without doing research. Those are the bad apples who cause the havoc.
 
Royd The Noyd

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The supplement industry has brought this heat on itself. I have no sympathy. And lol at the morons crying about guns, fast food, and cigarettes being sold. At least I know what I'm getting when I buy those products. With a few exceptions, this is a shady industry run by shady people.
This.

People sell non DSHEA compliant supplements then cry that a reporter likes to point it out to the public.

It should also be noted that she does a good job pointing out the inefficiency of our FDA.
 
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LG Sciences

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I agree with you Royd. Why not follow the VERY generous rules at this point and do something creative and novel. Any moron can make a isomer of something illegal...
 
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I'm all for regulation in supplement industry..without it you have people capping products in their house and selling it on the Internet.
I'm surprised USA today contacted Iron Forged as she usually goes after companies that sell a much higher volume
Hmmm, we are regulated.

Tell me how we are not?
 

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The supplement industry has brought this heat on itself. I have no sympathy. And lol at the morons crying about guns, fast food, and cigarettes being sold. At least I know what I'm getting when I buy those products. With a few exceptions, this is a shady industry run by shady people.
bad guns are sold that explode in people faces and kill them and you have no clue what you are eating in fast food, the food laws allow all types of unnamed processing compounds to be used and not listed.
 

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I agree that DMAA should have stayed on the market a few bad apples abused it and now its outed.

But AMP is still new and not much on safety has been studied. Only used it in a few samples so far and haven't really felt much of a difference. So I wouldn't really care if it was outed as well. BUT I do wish these people would stay away from crap they don't know what....leave our supps alone.

If people want to be stupid and abuse stuff that's their deal.
it actually has good tox data its just not a dietary ingredient...
 

Duywayne

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Sounds like a giant class action law suit against all these companies selling AMP is about to hit
 

OutOfStep

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bad guns are sold that explode in people faces and kill them and you have no clue what you are eating in fast food, the food laws allow all types of unnamed processing compounds to be used and not listed.
Yes, I do know what I'm getting with fast food...****. It's **** food. Nobody buys cigarettes and Big Macs and thinks they are doing their health any favors. By the way, whatever became of that whole ordeal where a bunch of folks got hepatitis after taking your fat burner supplement?
 

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Yes, I do know what I'm getting with fast food...****. It's **** food. Nobody buys cigarettes and Big Macs and thinks they are doing their health any favors. By the way, whatever became of that whole ordeal where a bunch of folks got hepatitis after taking your fat burner supplement?
we're doing alright..

Much better than anyone that hates supplements and hangs out on supplement forums...
 

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I'm all for regulation in supplement industry..without it you have people capping products in their house and selling it on the Internet.
I'm surprised USA today contacted Iron Forged as she usually goes after companies that sell a much higher volume
You snitched to her last time. Why don't you snitch again….you did..didn't you…
 
CNPJamie

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The Chinese insist it's naturally occurring in Oolong Tea and Green Tea, apparently. Whether or not that is true remains to be seen.

The problem, as I see it, with this author's alarmist supplement pieces is that she's an outsider looking into an industry and lifestyle she doesn't understand. This ingredient has been on the market for the better part of 20 years and has not been linked with any serious deleterious health effects.
 
koi1214

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You know I blame alot of this on kids being able to access PH's online and here is why.We all understand that they need to be run by adults and a proper PCT needs to be done afterwards.We all know the risks that come with them and proper cycle/liver support supps that need to be taken as well.The problem is alot of young kids who know nothing about these compounds are buying them and running cycles.They have no clue how to run these cycles and worst of all they are not taking the proper supporting supps needed. I think a way to combat this is for companies that not only sell prohormones but sell supplements need to get proof of age via a photo ID.Of course this will not stop all the kids but it will stop some.Also not to mention the mentality "More is Better"!Do remember the young kid who just recently died after taking an absurd ammount of Caffeine.I mean come on.who the takes that much caffeine at 1 time?

My rant is done.
 
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Royd The Noyd

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You know I blame alot of this on kids being able to access PH's online and here is why.We all understand that they need to be run by adults and a proper PCT needs to be done afterwards.We all know the risks that come with them and proper cycle/liver support supps that need to be taken as well.The problem is alot of young kids who know nothing about these compounds are buying them and running cycles.They have no clue how to run these cycles and worst of all they are not taking the proper supporting supps needed. I think a way to combat this is for companies that not only sell but sell sell supplements need to ask for proof of age via a photo ID.This will not stop kids but it will stop some.Also not to mention the mentality "More is Better"!Do remember the young kid who just recently died after taking an absurd ammount of Caffeine.I mean come on.who the takes that much caffeine at 1 time?

my rant is done.
There has never been a "ph" documented death.

There have been several deaths directly attributed to designer stimulants.

Every year more people die from caffeine over doses than any designer stimulant.

Caffeine is legal for all ages.

The problems with your idea are plentiful.
 
IFNutrition

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I agree that supplements should be made in a GMP certified facility and those facilities need to adhere to a set of quality standards. Iron Forged Nutriton products are all manufactured in a GMP certified facility in the USA. Safety is a very big concern of ours as a company and should be for every supplement company sadly that is not the case for some. With that being said our opinion is that as americans we should have the right to choose what we do with our bodies whether it is build it up or destroy it, it should be our choice. A supplement ingredient (like Amp Citrate) that is not harming people shouldn't be a concern when there are many other things out there that are more dangerous and acceptable to use. As many have said there are many products that we use daily that are harmful if used in excess or incorrectly (aspirin and tylenol come to mind) and even some that are harmful when used correctly (alcohol and tobacco) but it is our choice to use these products and to use them correctly or incorrectly. We should have the same freedom to choose with our supplement ingredients if we are adults.There does need to be more regulations in the supplement industry to prevent home production and to make sure proper testing is done to prove that the ingredients and dosing of those ingredients are what they say on the label but it has to have limits. We believe that most of the changes should be at the manufacturing level of keeping quality standards being able to prove the manufacturing was done correctly. As for the ingredient Amp Citrate, we feel that there is a lot of proof that Amp citrate is plant derived but there was strong proof that 1,3 DMAA was plant derived and it didn't matter in the end. Whatever the end result is we will have to adjust and go from there but I can tell you this, we do not feel that amp citrate is an issue of concern if we did we would not be using it in our products. Thank you all for your opinions we are entitled to them whether or not they are agreeing or disagreeing with us.
 
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wray98

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The article will be on new stands tomorrow from what I have been told.
 
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Afi140

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IFNutrition

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The article will be on new stands tomorrow from what I have been told.
I am not sure where you heard this but I was told the deadline is tomorrow and that the article would run early next week. I May be wrong but it is from a good source
 
wray98

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I am not sure where you heard this but I was told the deadline is tomorrow and that the article would run early next week. I May be wrong but it is from a good source
I was told by the company who owns the trademark for Amp Citrate as a name. They were asked for a interview and nicely denied it. USA Today apparently then showed up unannounced requesting the interview in person and they were once again shot down. I am going off what they told me earlier today either way the article is coming out tomorrow or sometime after.
 
andrew732

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AMP is much better overall but because its designer stim and people that do not include the gov't are making money off of it, it will get the ban unnecessarily, I have had my fair share of stims and this one overall with pros and cons is right there with caffeine...
 
haiz69

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Hoping that this doesn't go the way of DMAA. I very much enjoy AMP Citrate.
 
TGB1987

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AMP is much better overall but because its designer stim and people that do not include the gov't are making money off of it, it will get the ban unnecessarily, I have had my fair share of stims and this one overall with pros and cons is right there with caffeine...

I agree. I really enjoy amp citrate. It is definitely milder than dmaa but it is very smooth and mild. It is my favorite stimulant on the market
 
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Contaygious

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Well the scare tactics worked it seemed as it's being removed from conq3r and replaced with something else. Hopefully we don't miss it.
 

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It doesn't matter if it's naturally occurring as far as the FDA is concerned.

Even if it is somehow naturally occurring at <x> ppb, that's irrelevant.

(Relevant side note: It's not actually naturally occurring, the one study being cited by a couple of suppliers/supp companies to claim it is never even references the ingredient as being present)

--

The material being imported is clearly synthetic, and not a natural extract, and thus isn't a dietary supplement allowed by the DSHEA, because it is not:

-A vitamin
-A mineral
-An herb or botanical (Because it is synthetic material)
-An amino acid
-A substance used to increase dietary intake (The FDA has discounted attempts to put synthetic materials into this category)
-A concentrate, metabolite, or constituent of any of the above

--

Even IF you were to challenge the FDA and say that AMP is a 'substance used to increase dietary intake' it would STILL be a 'New Dietary Ingredient' because the specific synthetic ingredient wasn't marketed as a supplement prior to 1994.

--

I'm not saying anybody is doing anything scummy by selling it, it seems pretty safe, it seems pretty effective, it's just not compliant. I'll go away eventually, enjoy it while it lasts.

--

As for bad behavior by companies, here's a hilarious thing numerous companies have done:

-Criticized the initial sellers of DMAA (PA, USPLabs)
-Sold DMAA when it became popular and they wanted to jump on the bandwagon
-Bailed on DMAA as soon as the bad press started, touting their formulas as 'DMAA free!' as if it was a good thing
-Jumped on AMP when it started becoming popular, and touting their use of the ingredient, comparing it to DMAA.

With a general industry attitude like that, how does anyone ever expect the industry to take a stand for something?
Do you just expect the USPLabs' of the world to foot the legal bill and stand alone against the FDA and defend an ingredient while other companies just profit? (They were what, one of two companies that actually attempted to put forth any legal front against the FDA on DMAA?)

--

There is plenty of regulation on the industry already, it is just incredibly poorly and arbitrarily enforced based on feel-good news stories and politicians looking for a PR win for 'saving the children'. But at the same time, a huge number of companies do a good job of making the situation worse.
 

De__eB

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AMP is much better overall but because its designer stim and people that do not include the gov't are making money off of it, it will get the ban unnecessarily, I have had my fair share of stims and this one overall with pros and cons is right there with caffeine...
This has nothing to do with the government making money off it. Based on the law as written, the ingredient is illegal (among dozens of others being sold, but not many are being touted as a replacement for an ingredient the FDA literally just went after last year)

It is the FDAs job to enforce regulations, Young makes the FDA look worse than the makes the supplement industry.

The Chinese insist it's naturally occurring in Oolong Tea and Green Tea, apparently. Whether or not that is true remains to be seen.

The problem, as I see it, with this author's alarmist supplement pieces is that she's an outsider looking into an industry and lifestyle she doesn't understand. This ingredient has been on the market for the better part of 20 years and has not been linked with any serious deleterious health effects.
It's not naturally occurring ;)

And AMP Citrate hasn't been on the market for the better part of 20 years ;)

I agree with you Royd. Why not follow the VERY generous rules at this point and do something creative and novel. Any moron can make a isomer of something illegal...
What is it with people who have science in their username not grasping science

Dumb reporter writing a dumb article for dumb americans without any scientific validity. **** her and the hole she came out of.

On a lighter note, is anyone offering a bounty? :)
Without any scientific validity? The ingredient is objectively non-compliant.

Sell non-compliant ingredients all you want, the onus is on the FDA to come after you, but doing so and crying when that happens is just stupid.

shes all about that $ onto the next potential "risky" harmless supplement that she can portray into a news story to help fund her next shopping spree.
That's what happens when you take a non-compliant ingredient and mass market it as a replacement for the last (arguably) non-compliant stimulant the FDA went after.
 
Royd The Noyd

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But there are 7 ppb in my tea Deeb.

Fwiw I thought USP labs faired okay in the lawsuit for DMAA Oxyelite. I mean 2 million split between them and GNC for what was probably a several hundred million revenue grossing product seems like a small expense. Correct me if I'm wrong USP.
 

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It doesn't matter if it's naturally occurring as far as the FDA is concerned.

Even if it is somehow naturally occurring at <x> ppb, that's irrelevant.

(Relevant side note: It's not actually naturally occurring, the one study being cited by a couple of suppliers/supp companies to claim it is never even references the ingredient as being present)

--

The material being imported is clearly synthetic, and not a natural extract, and thus isn't a dietary supplement allowed by the DSHEA, because it is not:

-A vitamin
-A mineral
-An herb or botanical (Because it is synthetic material)
-An amino acid
-A substance used to increase dietary intake (The FDA has discounted attempts to put synthetic materials into this category)
-A concentrate, metabolite, or constituent of any of the above

.
if it was synthetic and naturally occurring it would fall under concentrate, metabolite or constituent.
 

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But there are 7 ppb in my tea Deeb.

Fwiw I thought USP labs faired okay in the lawsuit for DMAA Oxyelite. I mean 2 million split between them and GNC for what was probably a several hundred million revenue grossing product seems like a small expense. Correct me if I'm wrong USP.
Doesn't matter what I say and you probably shouldn't trust media….
 

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I
There is plenty of regulation on the industry already, it is just incredibly poorly and arbitrarily enforced based on feel-good news stories and politicians looking for a PR win for 'saving the children'. But at the same time, a huge number of companies do a good job of making the situation worse.
in a nutshell..
 

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AMP is much better overall but because its designer stim and people that do not include the gov't are making money off of it, it will get the ban unnecessarily, I have had my fair share of stims and this one overall with pros and cons is right there with caffeine...
taxes are paid or should be paid….
 

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if it was synthetic and naturally occurring it would fall under concentrate, metabolite or constituent.
In theory sure, in practice, the FDA has repeatedly said that a synthetic copy of a constituent of a botanical was never a part of the botanical, and thus can't be a constituent thereof.

We've been waiting what, 3 years for them to issue their revised enforcement guidelines in response to commends on the draft guidelines for NDIs, and I'm not really crossing my fingers for the FDA to make the right call on that issue any time soon.
 

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